The Onslaught of Photorealism 72
Ant writes "Shacknews mentioned an article entitled 'Videogame Aesthetics: We're All Going to Die!'. In it, the author considers the pros and cons of the neverending push toward absolute reality in video game graphics (or at least the weird plastic look that people get confused with reality), and comes to the conclusion that all in all it's probably worthwhile. In the process, the author takes a look at several games that employ unique visual styles that are extremely successful without attempting any sort of photorealism." From the article: "The photo-real push is obviously important to many people within and surrounding the game industry, as demonstrated not only by the persistent trend in commercial development, but also by work such as the System Shock 2 mod Rebirth, which replaced some of the models with curvier versions, designed for more powerful machines than the original game."
Brain Stem Jack! (Score:1)
Re:Brain Stem Jack! (Score:4, Funny)
"Brain Stem Jack" (Score:1)
Photorealism Smotorealism (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Photorealism Smotorealism (Score:2, Insightful)
LO
Re:Photorealism Smotorealism (Score:4, Insightful)
and I have noticed that the more realistic games look the more generic they look
I have noticed that the more realistic games look, the more the same as other crap games they tend to become. Game programmers must think we're really really stupid. They're repackaging the same old shit week after week and adding "better" graphics (where better is subjective).
Their push for "better" graphics means that those of us who cannot afford to or don't want to upgrade our PCs to the latest and greatest (WTF? I just want to look at pr0n, download my email and compile a few small applications; my current PC is already overkill for that) can't play the games in all their glory anyways.
I think new laws should be passed to force game makers to either:
* Innovate and make something new
or
* Fuck off and die
Rather than wasting our time with remakes and rehashes of old, tired themes with nothing better than "photorealism" to add.
Re:Photorealism Smotorealism (Score:1, Redundant)
I don't think it's the programmers (Score:5, Informative)
I think you're severely mistaken if you think anyone asked a programmer at all at most companies. (Well, other than at ID, but then their games are just tech demos anyway to sell their graphics engines.)
The days when one or two programmers could make a game just as good as anyone else's in their spare time, and proclaim it a big success if they sold 1000 copies and made $20,000 out of it are long gone. Nowadays, partially _because_ of the photorealism, game budgets are in the millions range, so you need a publisher.
And the publisher isn't evil or anything either, but they're risking millions on each game. And it's pretty much like a lottery there: most games actually don't make a profit. In fact, most games actually make a loss, and the publisher covers their losses from the profits from those that did sell well. (E.g., EA pretty much uses their sports games cash-cow to subsidize most of the other stuff they make.) And then some don't just make a loss, but are complete duds and sell 800 copies total, and noone is sure exactly why. And then some don't even get finished. (E.g., Jowood paid 5.5 million Euro to develop a game, and after many delays had to just scrap the project because the result was crap.)
Publishers go bankrupt, or get bought for pennies just for the brand name, all the time.
So the short story is that the publisher tries to minimize their risks. That tends to mean making more of whatever sold well last year.
Re:I don't think it's the programmers (Score:2)
So the short story is that the publisher tries to minimize their risks. That tends to mean making more of whatever sold well last year.
This just further proves my point - they release the same old crap over and over again.
As I said, do they really think I am that stupid? You occasionally see some real gems of games but most is just shit. The days when innovation and good ideas ruled the (most) industries are long gone. The dot bomb era is the reason for it becasue every moron with a computer wanted
Re:I don't think it's the programmers (Score:2)
Well, I never said you didn't have a point there. Just that it's not the programmers who are to blame for it.
"As I said, do they really think I am that stupid?"
There's a lot of thinking just that in this industry, yes. Or at least wishing that if they tried really really hard to believe something, it would become true. There's a whole bunch of myths getting repeated over and over, in the hope that they'll become reality
Re:I don't think it's the programmers (Score:1, Flamebait)
Well, I never said you didn't have a point there. Just that it's not the programmers who are to blame for it.
I'll take your point there; I won't (and I don't believe I originally did) blame the programmers directly.
The management are to blame for thinking in pure dollar terms. This is yet another thing that rings true of the fundamentalist capatilism that America is trying to spread to the world (fuck this democracy shit, they just don't want communism becase then the people at the top of the US would
Re:I don't think it's the programmers (Score:1)
After years upon years of not buying a PS2 I finally gave in and bought one. Why? Because I wanted to play Katamari Damacy (and its happy colourful sequel). Just for that one game, yes. Because everything else is crap that's repeated over and over again. I don't care for photorealism at all, and frankly most 3D environment games make me dizzy--I just want something fun.
Unfortunately my idea of "fun" isn't pretend-sports or FPS or racing car games or Shoot-random-things or any of
There's still a few small groups left... (Score:2)
The little guys aren't dead yet! Every once in a while there's a game developed by a small company that either sells like crazy, or gets a lot of industry buzz. In fact, because these companies
Re:Photorealism Smotorealism (Score:5, Insightful)
What about a completely realistic looking planet, that isn't our own. It has totally different animals, plants, geology...but it all looks like it could be real.
The closer to 'real' looking that racing games get, the more real I want them to look.
And don't forget...there is one thing that people never tire of looking at: people.
Re:Photorealism Smotorealism (Score:2)
Re:Photorealism Smotorealism (Score:2)
I think overall it's just a phase in the evolution of computer graphics. Once photo realism is achieved easily then there is really nothing else to do bu
Well then... (Score:2, Funny)
Non-realistic vs Ugly. (Score:5, Insightful)
Good games are art. Bad games are showbusiness.
Re:Non-realistic vs Ugly. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm always a little suspect of solutions that suggest trading the quantifiable and readily obtainable to the more abstract. It's usually a false dichotomy anyway: good art design is going to benefit you at any level of detail.
More polygons and normal maps make the characters and surfaces look more realistic under a wider range of lighting and viewing conditions- where previously that information was encoded more statically, it looked okay at first but then the illusion fails as soon as the light changes or you walk around an object or get close-up and it gets a lot less convincing. The inadequacies of phong shading are solved by reprogramming the GPU, not better concept art and design.
There's only one problem with that (Score:2)
Re:There's only one problem with that (Score:2)
I think you're talking about the uncanny valley [arclight.net]. It's a problem, but it's not insurmountable- there's no reason why we can't push through to positive reaction side. You're sort of right, EQ2 could avoid the problem by going for a more stylized approach, but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs less detail, less shaders, etc- you can have high detail and not go for absolute re
Even then (Score:2)
Still, even then, now we're only starting on the slope downwards into that valley. We're barely at the peak where it starts sorta provoking some empathy (enough to deliver a story anyway) but not enough to be taken for real. And we have a helluva chasm in front of us, seein' as even the Final Fantasy movie, with its _insane_ polygon co
Re:Even then (Score:2)
_If_ that theory is correct, then rying to push straight through it the hard way is IMHO suicide for the industry.
I've never seen the uncanny valley discussed in such apocalyptic terms, but I think the market will take care of it as your comment about EQ2 hints at: customers will avoid the uncanny and go for the stylized- but they will still be attracted by more sophisticated
Re:Even then (Score:2)
Well, the part that makes me worry in that graph is the dip below zero. I don't know if that theory is true or not, but _if_ it is, there ought to be a point ahead where more "realism" would actually be repulsive, as in worse than not playing a game at all. That's how I read that graph and that less than zero situation. (E.g., see the examples there: you could play with a toy robot or doll, but a zombie or a corpse is something you'd wa
Re:Even then (Score:2)
Re:Non-realistic vs Ugly. (Score:2)
I don't see why, that's art. Quantifiable is good, but it's ALWAYS secondary to "Abstract" concepts when it comes to art. If you gave a monkey a dual CPU G5 with Photoshop and gave a charcoal briquette to Picasso, I'm putting my money on Picasso, who gives a crap about the medium. Now what you'd be saying here is, give the G5 to Picasso. What the OP is saying is, you don't have Picasso,
Re:Non-realistic vs Ugly. (Score:2)
Either way you're still better off with the G5- part of my point is that you don't necessarily know what your dealing with on the monkey-picasso spectrum, but the h
Human Realism (Score:4, Interesting)
It's going to take increasing amounts of money and artists to handle all that extra detail though, I don't see any way around that, except through simplified scanning-in of real world objects and people.
Re:Human Realism (Score:1)
By re-using existing content, game developers can save a huge amount of time and money, especially when it comes to producing game ports, sequels where so much content can be re-used.
Some frown upon this recycling of objects, stating that games will look samey - but if you treat the "stock" objects as a virtual props department, you can achieve a great deal of aesthetic variety through lighting, environment desig
Re:Human Realism (Score:2)
I agree, but we're only now reaching the stage where you can differentiate a game through lighting and the amount of props in a scene. When a room could only have a handful of objects,
Re:Human Realism (Score:2)
Re:Human Realism (Score:2)
I've never really had a 'suspension of disbelief' while playing a game, I wonder if you mean more along the lines of a game breaking 'the fourth wall' or similar kinds of inconsistencies- if a game does that continually through the game then you get used to it, it's the games that do it a handful of times or once that are most jarring (e.g. using the second c
Re:Human Realism (Score:1)
Digital or no, there's only one thing that will always make a good character: compelling writing. If you've seen an amateur production of a famous play, you know what I'm talking about. Words make the characters what they are, and as long as those words are conveyed faithfully, the character comes through. True, a really brilliant ac
Re:Human Realism (Score:2)
For the pre-rendered cut-scenes (which includes the scene that people cried over), her polygon count was probably pretty respectable.
Digital or no, there's only one thing that will always make a good character: compelling writing.
I agree, but 'good writing' isn't very interesting to me as a technology (unless we're talking about computer
Photorealism is overrated. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Photorealism is overrated. (Score:2)
Re:Photorealism is overrated. (Score:1)
Yes, anal realism is necessary for a compelling experience.
Re:Photorealism is overrated. (Score:1)
Literally... I've been addicted to Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow since I picked it up last week. The sound is simply amazing. The music isn't perfect, but that's to be expected and that's no problem (I turn it down a bit to hear the effects of what's going on anyway). The effects are wonderfull. You'll need to put on a pair of headphones to hear it correctly, but you can hear the bones rattling when you destroy a skeleton, or the blood splatter when you kill a zombie. Fires off to the left a
Re:Photorealism is overrated. (Score:2)
This could be difficult...
While there are standards such as EAX, it doesn't feel as if it's implementation is standard. In some sound cards, it is not supported on half of the games - while other sound cards supports it in that half, but the other half stops working. In addition, there is distortion with some incorrect implementations (wh
Re:Photorealism is overrated. (Score:1)
I think we'll only see i
An old argument, polished! (Score:4, Insightful)
I've said it time and time again. I'd rather play a game with beautiful hand-drawn sprites rather than crappy (but beautifully rendered) 3D characters. That said, I'm also a realist-if you can make something that looks bad in 2D better in 3D, then do so. There's also the limitation of genre. Most adventure genres don't need 3D rendering (and a few fringe subgenres absoulutely DEMAND hand-drawn art). However, racers and FPSes just don't look as good with Mode 7. Of course, there's always games that can only work in 3D but look crappy because of tech (read: Starfox). I could go on all day about it, but I won't.
That said, I believe that environments, done well enough, look far better in fully interactive 3D. Or maybe that's just me
For those who want good art direction AND visuals, pick up a GBA and get some of the higher-rated titles (and Sigma Star Saga, because it's underrated), and virtually every half-decent RPG. Almost all of the best GBA games have stunning art direction, and pixel-pushed goodness.
Re:An old argument, polished! (Score:2)
Interesting that you mention it, I consider the original StarFox(SNES) still to be the best looking game of the series, the enemy design is cool especially because the 3d power was extremly limited in that day. They created some great looking extremly-low polygon models there. The other games in the series on the other side with their more realistic models just can't keep up with the originality of t
It's only one of many factors (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's only one of many factors (Score:2, Informative)
The article, the point, and the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
No offense, but it reads a bit like an undergraduate essay; perhaps an honors project, complete with a "hall of fame" for various aesthetic styles.
The point (as I understand it) is that visual representation and the drive towards "realism" detracts from the exploration of the wide range of visual styles available for game development. The author uses many examples, a few from film, but mostly from comics for his argument.
The problem with the article (besides its rather pretentious linguistic exuberance) lies in the incomplete realization of a very interesting thesis that lurks in the subtext, which betrays the failure to properly conceptualize the field of inquiry, viz. videogames.
Alright, time to cut the pretentious babble: at times during the author's exposition, the issue of limitations creep up. Mostly, these are (as is not surprising for most videogame freaks, given historical development) limitations in technology, and remarks made in passing do indicate that game development has to take this into account (with a salient example being Katamari Damacy). But there are other limitations, the biggest one being money, whether expressed in development time, anticipated sales, or the burgeoning arts budgets of big-ticket games. In other words, aesthetics does not merely consider formal aspects, but rather formal aspects as expressed in the proximate matter that we call "the medium". A painter can't paint on moonlight, but needs a canvas (of some sort). A filmmaker without film (chemical or digital) is not a filmmaker.
So at the heart of it is the computer, and its capabilities. But the problem here is not just material; it's formal. The Author assumes the essence of a computer game; that is he never defines his subject. As a result, he injects ideas and categorizations that are completely foreign to video games.
When I was younger, and even more pretentious, I once declared that if cooking were an art, I'd have slipped motor oil into the compote. I'm glad there's someone following in my footsteps and suggesting a matisse-like (as opposed to 1920x1280 matrix-like) pointillist video game. "Computer game" is not a monolithic concept: games belong to specific types, and those types have their proper artwork. Puzzles (like tetris) do not need photorealistic artwork; in fact, a pure puzzle works best with an abstract and unambiguous semantic scheme that communicate the salient information immediately to the player (imagine how much fun tetris would be if the blocks were photorealistic bricks of nearly identical size). A narrative can play with representation (like the author's beloved comic books) and explore some of the more fantastic representational schemes. A simulation, however, needs to give the user the cognitive experience of the reality being simulated. That doesn't rule out art altogether; rather it establishes rules within which the art operates.
Within these rules, "photorealism" is a dead end, or at least a misnomer. Few photographs convey the feeling of "being there". Extracting 2048x2048 textures from photographs, and slapping them on 100,000-poly models doesn't result in a realistic-looking model: any photographer will tell you the same object, photographed, will be entirely different from one part of the day to the next, and that the camera does not function identically to the eye. Making a "photograph" means putting something in focus, and directing the player's eye along.
But the idea of "imagistic realism" itself, complete with complex graphics and lighting effects, is quite valid for games with a heavy simulation element. The largely narrative-driven ("sandbox") series Grand Theft Auto, when it shifted to a "first person" (or nearly) perspective with GTA3. went from an exploitational sidewalk-driving game to a blockbuster monument of game development with "Vice
Uncanny Valley (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Uncanny Valley (Score:1)
"If it looks real, it is not art." (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, it might be better to differ from reality by the ways of the artists all-powerful mind, and not because of limitations of our tools. So photorealism here and some fantasy somewhere else makes sense. But if you insists on photorealism, realistic chracter AI, a working realistic environment and complete freedom of storyline, what is there left as the "art"?
The 13th Floor! (Score:2)
If they get too close to reality, they'll crash this one!
Re:The 13th Floor! (Score:2)
Yes I have, I'm not proud of it, but there you are.
Screw realism (Score:1)
its not necessary (Score:1)
meh, I wrote this article ten years ago (Score:1)
what photorealism? (Score:2)
Unfortunately, the alternatives have histori
Re:what photorealism? (Score:2)
I never said global illumination was easy... As for storing the whole model in RAM, ray tracers can represent the model using more general primitives than triangles (spheres, cones, quadrics, fractals, etc...), so the RAM requirement might not be such a big iss
Re:what photorealism? (Score:2)
You are attacking games for a claim that they've actually never made.
The topic of the article is not any existing game, but possibilities for the future, when brute-force raytracing becomes more and more plausible.
because they don't accont for indirect illumination.
There have already been games that accounted for indirect illum, usually by precalculating light levels. Of course, that means that they are then
Here's an idea! (Score:1)
Need to be able to control the photo aswell. (Score:1)
If the controls are awful (most games I've played for some reason or other) then the game will just be back to annoying and frustrating.
I picked up an old copy of Riddick for the Xbox last weekend and found myself getting into it.
Well, that was until I had to use a ladder, or jump on a box, or try to get up on a step that is only knee high, but unable too.
The more photo-real the game is, the more fluid the controls need to be.
I'm off to make a cup of tea. -
H
Photorealism steals focus (Score:2, Interesting)
Photorealism is difficult and technically demanding, and doubtless brings out the nerd in many game producers. If they're not careful, other aspects of gameplay will be lost. Titanic was a visually spectacular movie, but could have been taken to a whole new level if James Cameron had thought of spending a couple of hundred thousand dollars on editing the script. I've been in a musical theatre production where the director spent 80% of the time working on the lighting and 0% of the time actually directing th