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Role Playing (Games)

Deep Thoughts On The SWG Revamp 40

Posted by Zonk from the terra-nova-means-academic-thinking dept.
The always thoughtful Terra Nova has a look at the recent Star Wars Galaxies revamp from a group with a long view on the role of Massive games. From the article: "Unfortunately, the live management team seems to have ignored another long-standing criticism of SWG by many observers: that their design and implementation process is a disastrous mess. Never more so than with the NGE: whatever it is conceptually, in practice, it's roughly on par with an alpha build of a MMOG. Or did they ignore it? It's just possible that SWG's latest flaming car wreck resulted from deliberately driving over a cliff. I'm normally deeply suspicious of conspiracy theories. In the case of SWG's NGE, though, there are really only two possibilities: that there is a deeper agenda or that the live management team is well beyond cluelessly self-destructive, out in some outer void of fecklessness. "
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Deep Thoughts On The SWG Revamp More

Deep Thoughts On The SWG Revamp

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  • Or... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ArsonSmith ( 13997 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @05:03PM (#14085428) Journal
    Gamers get pissed when things never change, but riot when they do.

    Or

    people get pissed when things never change, but riot when they do.

    Take your pick.
    • I think you're right in general, but what's happening with SWG really is different than anything that's happened in MMOGs before (that I know of). I don't think you can chalk this up to "gamers will be unhappy no matter what". It's not a new feature or a balance-- it's a transformation into a totally different game.
    • ...is gradual expansion that does not break the existing parts of the game.
      Examples:
      -a new continent has been discovered
      -new items have been invented
      -a new threat appears

      And that goes for ALL MMORPGs, not just SWG. Of course, SOE seems to go against this principle with extraordinary energy ;-)
      • I highly doubt you'll ever see anything like that, except in an MMO that can afford to cater solely to casual players. To those who want to advance a character and have something to show for it, It wouldn't work. For example, EQ. When the Planes of Power xpac came out, it took ages of grinding to get access, then even more time grinding to get loot, etc. I was talking to my roomate, who had talked about it with his brother, who still plays. Recently, they added a bunch of 'Monster Missions'. They take

  • I was at SOE to see... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dhakbar ( 783117 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @05:13PM (#14085504)
    SWG's development team is composed largely of individuals who worked on Ultima Online at OSI years ago. It is they who created the horrendous messes that were UO patching and, these days, SWG patching. The similarities are striking when one looks at the two games. Both UO and SWG have had duping issues, both have had problems with player structures and guilds, both shift the hot spots for experience, money, etc. every single patch.

    These guys have some great ideas, they really do. They have a problem with implementation that needs to be solved if they are to ever create a game that stays fun without having to be completely overhauled every 2 years when subs fall through the floor.

  • Two views... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thesandtiger ( 819476 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @05:41PM (#14085766)
    One, is that if you play an MMO, you're paying for a consistent (more or less) game world. The experience may change over time, but generally it'll be fairly consistent. Completely gutting everything ... not good.

    Two, is that this is pretty interesting from a game design challenge aspect. I played SWG way back when it first launched. I've sampled the Combat Upgrade, and I'm debating sampling the NGE - not because I'm interested in playing the game again, but because I'm interested in the concept of the whole MMO overhaul deal. It's kind of like how people who aren't terribly interested in getting plastic surgery done can still be fascinated by watching the procedure on a Discovery show.

    From an entertainment standpoint, I think SWG is a miserable failure. One person I know said that it was a spreadsheet with a 3D interface, and that's about as apt a description as any I could think of.

    From a game design standpoint, as a learning experience, as an example of what kinds of things can go right and what kinds of things can go so very, very wrong, as a window into the MMO business world, it's interesting. I found the recent /. Q&A with Smedley to be interesting - it was very clear that the one hand doesn't know what's going on with the other, and yet, they are still somehow managing to keep this sucker alive.

    I think that, at one of those schools that's now offering a degree in game design (or whatever they're calling it) SWG would be a very fine bit of learning material.

    Too bad they broke the game, though.
    • I'd go so far as to call the changes and pace of release of the changes reckless.

      Since companies are pretty closed mouth about actual numbers it is hard to tell how this has actually affected subscriptions. My guess is that there are a lot of people re-activating accounts for 1 month to see what the noise is about, but that everyone interested in anything other than combat has probably cancelled at this point. I don't think you can sell someone a subscription to one game and expect them to be happy about

  • What's Really Going On (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Sugar Moose ( 686011 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @05:48PM (#14085829) Journal
    As I have said here before, I believe NGE is the release of SWG 2. Instead of dividing their player base into 2 games they have to support, they are forcing you to play the new one. They saw what happened to EQ2 at AC2, both of which were assumed to be the successors, and neither of which ever exceeded the original in popularity. This time around, they thought they'd just overwrite the old game so that it's impossible for you to stay.

    SOE's biggest problem is that they make very boring, tedious games that are no fun to actually play, but give the player a sense of advancement and accomplishment. When EQ players think about moving to EQ 2, they see their max level character and all they've been through to get him where he is. Doing all that again wouldn't be fun, it would be work.

    So this is their new idea. It's just no surprise that it was an utter disregard for the players from the company who teleported a peaceful (and very reasonable) protest into space. Way to go, SOE.
  • SOE is trying to save the game. The way they are going about it though is risky and, just may kill it off sooner.

    My idea is that they could have split up there populations in 2 parts, 'old way' and 'new way' (NGE). This way you retain the subscriptions who don't want major change, and keep those that do want the change (if they like the 'new way'). They may be able to attract new subscriptions if the NGE catches on.

    Now the overhead of maintaining 2 server games with 1 client may be a nightmare and redu

    • Re:Trying to save it (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Krater76 ( 810350 )
      The Star Wars franchise is just too hot of a commodity to pass up. It's worth billions and has billions of people who know what it is. Blizzard can't hold Star Wars' jock. What Blizzard can do is create a much more stable and playable game.

      Maybe Sony should focus on making SWG 2 and leave SWG alone. They need to let it go. Get a good new project manager and a new good software architect and start with a new team from scratch. New graphics, new gameplay, keep what worked, toss what didn't. Two years d
      • "Two years dev time and SWG 2 could be released just as WoW is getting old and stale."

        Hell, by many accounts WoW is already getting old and stale. I think half the player base will have 3 or 4 lvl 60s by the time the expansion comes out.
        I think I could run through UBRS blindfolded at this point.
        • Even if it's a subscription game, it's still just a game. I don't think it's realistic to assume the game will be fresh and new and just as exciting as the day you bought it several years down the track.

          4 level 60 characters? That's a lot of quests and a lot of grind! And you probably got your money's worth out of it. Time to move on perhaps?

          • Re:Trying to save it (Score:4, Informative)

            by snuf23 ( 182335 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @09:20PM (#14087417)
            I don't expect it to be as "fresh and exciting" as day one. I just mean to say that with World of Warcraft it doesn't take very long (by MMO standards) to hit level cap. You can blast through the early game in a few months. I didn't even start playing until about 5 months after launch and I got to level 60 in about 4 months. Keep in mind I also wasn't rushing the game, my character had cooking and fishing maxed out as well as the normal skill set.
            When you hit the high end game rewards become very hard to come by. Maybe there is too little grind in the early part and too much in the high end.
            After 60 it goes like this:

            Run the lvl 55+ dungeons to get your "set" of items. You will be looking at an average of an 8 percent drop rate for your items per run. If the item does drop you will need to roll on it with everyone else in the group who is the same class. So you can look at doing those dungeons quite a few times (at 1 to 3 hours each run). And each item is an incremental improvement over the gear you are likely to have by lvl 60 anyway.

            Run Molten Core, Black Wing Lair and Zul Gurrab. These require an organized group of 20 or 40 players. Once again when that mad loot drops you will need to roll. Or you may just need to run the raids withough any gain at first in order to get "dragon kill points" before you can get any items. Being in a large guild is somewhat of a prerequisite, with all the joy that usually brings (player drama, military organization, must be available to raid at specific times get dropped from the guild etc).

            If that's not your cup of tea other options include:

            PVP - you can try to get honor through PVP to earn special items. If you want to get to the top ranks be prepared to spend a lot of time in game. PVP is not always active, so you may spend a lot of time sitting around waiting for a game to open up. And if you are PVPing in the level 60 bracket, be prepared to face a core team of organized players with epic gear. Better go back to doing the MC runs if you want to be competetive.

            Crafting - the highest end of the various crafting skills can make some great items. You will need to earn faction with NPC groups before you can learn to make them. How do you get that faction? By running certain quests over and over again generally. And once you learn how to make the item, getting the materials to make them can take an tremendous amount of time.

            As to time to move on? Yeah, pretty soon it will be. Most of the reason you keep playing is friends and guild mates in the game. Not so much the mechanics of the game itself. I recently had a handful of real life friends pick up the game, so I'm having fun playing with them for now.
            To Blizzard's credit they have been adding a lot of new content over the past 6 months. I just hope we see more stuff that casual players can have a good time running. Not everyone has the time for the high end 40 man raids.
            It will be interesting to see how the next round of MMOs (D&D Online, Conan, Middle Earth etc.) respond to the juggernaut that is World of Warcraft.
  • If the SWG forums are any indication how the upgrade is going, it looks like SWG will be completely dead in 2 months tops:

    http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board?board.id= swggpdiscussion [sony.com]

  • Bugs, bugs, bugs... (Score:3, Informative)

    by DarkYoshi ( 895118 ) <elispiro@gmail.com> on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:14PM (#14086080)
    I downloaded the 10-day trial for this game. I found it to be quite a bit of fun, except for the fact that the tutorial wouldn't realize I had done what it asked, until I quit the game and went back in. I walked up to the medical droid, and nothing happened. I entered the Falcon, and nothing happened. I destroyed all the TIE fighters, and nothing happened. All of these things were instructions from the tutorial. How can we be expected to pay a subscription fee for such a broken game?
    • While I didn't have as many bug problems as you, I was amused that I hit a handful within 2 hours of playing. Having always heard about the nightmare of buggy gameplay that SWG is, I finally got a chance to see it first hand.
      I had quests I couldn't turn in even though they were complete. I think the best one was when I tried to fly the space ship. The tutorial kept telling me to fly using the mouse, but I couldn't change the ships pitch with the mouse. Finally I figured out that the game had auto-detected m
      • The tutorial kept telling me to fly using the mouse, but I couldn't change the ships pitch with the mouse. Finally I figured out that the game had auto-detected my gamepad and wanted to use that for flying."

        Ah, so *that* was the problem! I played two sessions from the 10-day trial and I still hadn't figured it out. It drove me crazy! I couldn't use the mouse to steer the ship up and down! I'll try my gamepad this week. Thanks! :)

        In any case, apart from some small bugs, I enjoyed it so far, but I don't
        • Ack, I *don't have the free time, of course. Also, yeah, about the restriction to the newbie zone, that sucks! I hated this in the EQ2 trial. How can I truly try it out this way? The EQ2 trial sucked balls, so my impression of that game is pretty low. I'll stick with WoW for now.
        • No problem. It sure was difficult making it to the other space station by turning and rolling about. :)
          If you do want to fly with the mouse - go into the control options and look for a checkbox that says something like "auto detect joystick for flying". Select the option for mouse control directly instead. Mouse control is a bit squirrely however.
          • Ha, actually it was a bit difficult, but I made it (using the 'q' and 'e' keys as I remember) by rolling about as you say. It somehow reminded me of old space simulators like Wing Commander. :)

            It's strange, I don't expect PC games to support a gamepad out of the box. I usually have to map it using software to keyboard/mouse commands. Strange, because so many PC games play a lot better with a gamepad (can't say anything about joysticks-- that one goes back to the old C-64 days :)).

  • Part of the truth (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Over00 ( 591403 )
    Is that those changes should have been there since launch. Of course, it's quite easy to say this at this point. Too many professions was a challenge they weren't able to overcome. The big sandbox concept was a good idea but they left their players hanging with no reward and no impact on the world. The skill system was a good thing but poorly implemented with big balance issues (balance being important since the Galactic Civil War, read PvP here, was supposed to be the end game). Surely others games wanting
  • car wreck is not a good analogy, more like a huge train wreck
  • That is the NGE.

    The interface sucks, melee combat (which Jedi is the only melee class now) is horribly unblanced.

    You can't even tell which direction you are pointed thanks to the idiotic UI.

    Not to mention, mouse movement, which used to be so fluid and a strength of this game, is gone.

    And, if you were an existing vet (who respec not full template, CL80 and have to grind 5 million XP to get to CL90), the ONLY place you can get decent XP is on Mustafar, doing THREE quests that are located ONLY there.

    Mustafar?

  • I enjoy it... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Sinryc ( 834433 )
    All the people complain about the NGE, but I actually enjoy it. A lot. I dunno what else to say other then I enjoy it....

  • Not meant to be a troll... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cpu_fusion ( 705735 ) on Tuesday November 22, 2005 @01:55AM (#14088410)
    Not meant to be a troll, but ...

    Seriously, why is anyone still playing SWG?

    Go out and try a new MMO. Stop running around in the same body, pounding the same keys, fretting because of the same stupid game management that launched the game in a beta state. Free yourself.

    It's not that damn hard to get started again in a new game, and you know what... you'll have more fun being a newbie and seeing a fresh new world as a level 1 than you have as an uber jedi running around the same damn planets collecting more crap to put in a building that few people have ever seen.

    • That's the same question I've been asking myself. I am a SWG veteran (or former victim, you be the judge) who joined just after it went live and quit 7 months later. It completely turned me off of MMOs...until my friends showed me WoW, which is everything an MMO is supposed to be.

      Seriously, if you don't like SWG, then quit and join some other game. Instead of paying $15/month for the privilege to bitch and moan, pay $15/month to actually HAVE FUN. Take it from me: that's what I did.

      Volpone

      • I'd be up for playing a NEW mmorpg.... but I haven't seen any come out for a while. I'm not going to play wow because it's already been out over a year. I would like to play in an mmorpg from the start. It's all been done in WOW and that really looses the 'wow' factor for me, not to mention the outdated game technology. It's more enjoyable to be part of the founding community of a cutting edge game like I am/was in SWG, and that's why its hard for us vets to accept reality.
        • Most of my entertainment from the game is actually the process of building a character from 0 to 60. It is so worth it just for that joy factor of discovering things. Join a new server, and you will find heaps of 'n00bs' playing for the first time, with some experienced vets creating an 'alt'. I actually think the game falls down a bit once you hit 60.... new characters, lands to discover, storylines to quest through.

          I quite like the game.... having said that, after nine months I think I'll hang up my mouse
  • This whole NGE situation just cracks me up cause I had a jedi in the pre-combat upgrade days. I played since launch and eventually reached the jedi status that was still rare then. It was fun for a bit but the game was old, tired and consistently buggy. I thought SWG was dying a year ago so I sold my jedi, but now I see it is truly dead. When SWG first came out myself and some RL friends had great times just exploring the worlds, trying out different professions, and eventually creating cities and milita'
  • I played the game pre-"fix" and switched over to CoH/CoV. I downloaded the 10 day trial, it is okay. It reminds me more of some sort of mod for Quake or something than Star Wars Galaxies.
  • Is the censorship that took place yesterday, i was watching it for about 3 hours, yes it was that entertaining. People would write something negative about the NGE and 30 seconds - 2 minutes later the thread would get deleted. and guys, if you leased a porsche, even added a few extras to it , go to bed, wake up and suddenly see a mini-cooper in front of your house for the same price, wouldn't you be upset? wouldn't you go to the guy you leased the porsche from to tell him where he could shove it and end th

    • blockquote> 2 minutes later the thread would get deleted. and guys, if you leased a porsche, even added a few extras to it , go to bed, wake up and suddenly see a mini-cooper in front of your house for the same price, wouldn't you be upset? wouldn't you go to the guy you leased the porsche from to tell him where he could shove it and end the contract? now imagine people who paid a year in advance because they so liked their porsche (old SWG) and are stuck with the mini-cooper (NGE SWG). and when voicing

    • that's standard ops at SOE. The weeks prior to the CU this same behavior was going on. Polls being reset, entire threads being deleted(Dev threads asking for opinions), etc. Even at the Meet/Conference when SWG's public-relations person stood up and said the majority of the players loved the upcoming changes. Most of the people in the room stared at her in disbelief and tried to ask how that was even remotely possible, but Q/A wasn't allowed.

      I bailed out of the game a few weeks after the CU when it beca
  • SOE ignores its customers' wishes to an extraordinary degree The CU and the NGE have ruined what once was a very enjoyable MMORPG SOE has deliberately dumbed down and downsized SWG so it will appeal to kiddies and be compatible with XBox If you are thinking of subscribing to SWG -- DON'T Gamers' best hope is that SWG goes under, and a more competent set of developers than the Morondevs at SOE will make a Star Wars MMORPG that is enjoyable and that is not changed out of recognition every few months Than

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