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Xbox 360 Very Unstable 1113

fmwap writes "There have been several postings over at Xbox-scene complaining of crashing Xbox's on new games, with default settings on single player. Crashes on Xbox Live and on startup have been reported too, and Project Gotham Racing 3 crashes before finishing the first lap. Screenshots and Video are available showing the crash."
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Xbox 360 Very Unstable

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  • and this folks (Score:5, Interesting)

    by lubricated ( 49106 ) <.moc.liamg. .ta. .plahcim.> on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:33AM (#14099537)
    Well, this is why I always wait a few months before jumping on a console, if not a year. Nothing pisses me off more while I'm gaming than a crash.
  • by WebGangsta ( 717475 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:40AM (#14099596)
    I fully anticipated that there would be problems with the initial release of 360s reported from various tech-knowledgable early buyers, but how widespread are these problems in reality?

    For example, I have a day-of-release PS2 that's still going strong, and I never experienced any of the problems that were reported here and elsewhere with these units. In this case, I assume that my machine is the norm and not the exception, but if I based my opinion on the naysayers at the time it would appear that my PS2 would be in the minority of working units instead.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:43AM (#14099617)
    The air being exhausted from my xbox 360 doesn't feel any hotter then what's comming out of my PC. I think there probably a larger precentage of defects out there, especialy given the rush to market and short supply. Last night I played for about 6 hours strait didn't experience any lockups or other issues like what has been reported.
  • by patonw ( 747304 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:46AM (#14099636)
    Planned lack of testing might have been a contributing factor to the decision to restrict the number of units sold at launch. I mean, if they new it was going to be the most gawd awfully bugged first revision in console gaming history, they could save a lot by having fewer machines to recall.
  • by tkrotchko ( 124118 ) * on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:48AM (#14099654) Homepage
    I understand what you're saying and to a certain extent I agree.

    But give how common these problems are, doesn't it strike you as odd? This is almost like there was no testing at all, which doesn't make sense. The developers surely would have caught these weeks, if not months ago.
  • by mikekinasz ( 803481 ) * on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:51AM (#14099680)
    My friend opened his up and got an error immediately. Turned it off.... and back on and got the same error. So he held down the power button for an extended period of time and YAY it fixed it somehow and he's not seen any errors since. So much for Quality Assurance. No reports of crashes yet though on the games.
  • by mcgroarty ( 633843 ) <{moc.liamg} {ta} {ytraorgcm.nairb}> on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:51AM (#14099681) Homepage
    How many game saves fit on the premium 360's hard drive after all the software updates?
  • Re:Track record (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sqlrob ( 173498 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:56AM (#14099715)
    The XBOX shipped with (no less than 3) critical flaws in its BIOS, allowing unsigned code to be ran provided that it was given the OK from signed media (I.E. Mechassault, SplinterCell, 007). Perhaps they will write cleaner code next time?

    You're combining things here. There were 3 flaws in the boot code. This is MS' fault.

    That has nothing to do with the overflows in those games. Unless MS wrote those games, they aren't responsible, unless they're auditing the code before signing it.
  • Rushed to market? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Winterblink ( 575267 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:04AM (#14099783) Homepage
    Who knows, this could be a result of Microsoft rushing the hardware to make it in time for the holiday season.

    In the case of PDZ, I'd question the stability of the game from the fact they were stamping the damn thing before running it through Microsoft's test regime. The problem is with both parties frankly, because if you're stamping it before final testing, the you probably didn't do your OWN testing to make sure things were working properly. Or, I bet Rare was biting its fingernails hoping Microsoft didn't find known issues.

    Admittedly, this is version 1 of the 360. You can never find all the problems until a product is put out to market and widespread use finds all sorts of issues you never thought of. For all we know, some people having issues maybe have their 360 plugged into a dizzying array of power bars hooked up behind their home theaters. Power issue, maybe? Inadequate cooling? Time will tell.

    In any case, I'm pretty glad I'm not an early adopter this go-around. I'm still considering picking one up, but I think I'll wait until the game library's a little less sports-heavy, and maybe for the 65nm chipped versions to hit the shelves.
  • /. crap (Score:2, Interesting)

    by estebanf ( 814656 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:08AM (#14099817)
    Most of the posts says that the console works great after several continous hours of playing. Only a few reported problems... it seems to me this is a /. overeaction.
  • by should_be_linear ( 779431 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:10AM (#14099828)
    Microsoft product crashes
    I predicted in /. forum that XBox will be very unstable, not because it is designed by MS but because it is nightmare for debugging. You have to make 3 threads application (not 4, not 2) and sync all objects they share. Combine it with complicated interactions of objects in any game, which makes creation of auto-test scripts impossible and default gaming language, C++, which is very uneasy to debug for Multiple threads (compared to say, Java) and they hardly could do any better than this. Cell is designed in much better way, multiple threads (SPUs) are used by low level liberaries (well debugged) but main gaming/engine app. is still single-threadded and therefore easy to debug and stable.
  • Re:Well... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by apoc06 ( 853263 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:15AM (#14099880)
    well, TFA has the actual gathered facts. this reflects what we've been hearing about the x360 kiosks that were installed in walmarts as well. whereas those crashes were written off as the byproduct of improper ventilation in the kiosks and the models being alpha-development hardware, now we are starting to see those werent just early prototypes; those are the same models that are being sold now. remember the whole "the actual power supply wont actually be that big..." argument? well, guess what? IT IS... remember the whole "the final model wont be as noisy..." argument? well it is. what else is there to be said? the crashes arent isolated to one or two software titles; it must be in the hardware somewhere.

    this sort of stuff happens with lots of rushed to market consumer electronics. no big deal to me; its what you would expect. all i can say is that ive had my fair share of consoles do weird stuff, but no playstation or nintendo product ive ever owned has repeatedly crashed on me within the first 24 hours of owning it.

    the postings are on xbox-scene. if they are biased against microsoft, i cant tell. its an xbox modding/fan site! would multiple users go out and spend $400 plus games, peripherals, etc. on x360s just so they can post screenshots of self-inflicted crashes?
  • by Yartrebo ( 690383 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:20AM (#14099922)
    Either way, you can be sure that Microsoft (or any console maker) will set their launch date a full year ahead of what would be needed to ensure a quality product. They figure (quite correctly, unless the crashes are very frequent to the point of making the console unplayable) that the extremely image conscious video game market will reward speed to market over quality. Personally I will be opting out of the latest set of console releases. I don't have enough time to make use of a new console purchase and I'm either boycotting the console maker (Sony and Microsoft), or I hold the maker in very low esteem (Nintendo, for bringing us Pokemon and thus refining price gouging and bringing marketing to a new level). $400/unit isn't exactly a bargain basement price. I'm also paranoid about anything with wireless networking (that it'll have FBI or general purpose backdoors), so that's another strike. None of these corps would even think twice about installing backdoors (Microsoft and Sony have been doing this for years, and I don't see Nintendo as a bastion of consumer rights).
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:32AM (#14100037)
    Newegg has a sale on Power Supplies. Why not pick up one and swap it out?
  • Re:Heat (Score:1, Interesting)

    by QuantumPion ( 805098 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:34AM (#14100067)

    What kind of outcry do you think there will be if microsoft releases a patch via live which reduces the clock speeds of the gpu/cpu, thus making games even more choppy? When I saw my friend playing Morrowind on the xbox for the first time, and saw the constant, dismal 15-20 fps, I knew I would probably never buy a console again. This crashing buisness with the 360 only reinforces that thought.

    This is why I'm a PC guy. With a PC, you can tweak your hardware to get the most stable, highest performance configuration. You can also change graphics settings within any game to get similar results. If a console game runs slow or the console itself crashes due to overheating or overclocking, you are out of luck.

  • I harshly object (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Loundry ( 4143 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:36AM (#14100094) Journal
    They- like all companies- are a FOR-PROFIT venture, and will do whatever they think is the thing that will garner them the most profit. Period.

    This is a most rephrehensible comment to make. You claim that since a company wants to make a profit, they will, therefore, by definition, do ANYTHING that might make them money. For instance, if kidnapping children and selling them into sexual slavery in Southeast Asia is profitable, then ANY for-profit company would have no compunction at all in doing so. This is a wrong-headed, insulting, and stupid idea. Perhaps you believe it because you believe axiomatically that the profit motive is evil.

    Welcome to Capitalism, enjoy your stay.

    You and I have very different understandings of capitalism. To me, capitalism is when people trade value-for-value as free individuals. It is immoral to make money through force or fraud, and those who do it should be punished. Capitalism is merely that which exists by default when individual property rights are protected by the state, free people are allowed to trade, and force and fraud are punished. It is the celebration of individual excellence. It allows companies like Ben & Jerry's and Starbucks to exist which, despite their leftist lip-service, are actually shining monuments to the success of capitalism over older, inferior competitors.

    To you, capitalism is probably the source of all the world's misery. I think that's an article of your faith as opposed to observations of reality.
  • by the computer guy nex ( 916959 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @10:59AM (#14100286)
    the video and screenshots have been proven fake.
  • Hardware problems (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Megane ( 129182 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @11:02AM (#14100306) Homepage
    Given that apparently it's a small number of customers having this problem, I would have to suspect bad hardware is at fault. In particular, bad RAM. It happens. I got an HDTV tuner that out of the box had a bunch of shimmering vertical stripes in the video, and I rightly guessed that it was a RAM problem. I took it back and exchanged for the only one left in the store, which was the display model on the shelf, and I had no more problems with it. (Except I do have to reboot it every couple of weeks when something goes wonky like decoding the audio...)

    Also, where I work has used a 3rd-party embedded network processor card which has had problems with both the DRAM timing, and incompatibities with specific types of SRAM chips that were ordinarily within spec. We found this out pretty quickly because I wrote a better memory test than anyone else was using with this board. And we have other PC-based equipment that has had a couple of incidents with bad motherboard DIMMs.

    Hard crashes that affect a single digit percentage of users all running identical hardware and software, especially when some of those crashes are during boot.

    [tinfoilHat]Now we know why Microsoft wanted to limit quantities on the launch day![/tinfoilHat] Ha, ha, it's not cool that the customers with these problems probably had to buy a couple hundred bucks of accessories and games just to move to the front of the line. This is not where you want to find out that your brand new expensive game system suffers from dodgy RAM chips.

    This better not be happening in Japan, or they'll be stuck as the "DOABox" like the original XBox was. (Ha ha, that's funny, DOA, ha ha.) And if it is, they're probably going to have to send field service guys to people's houses to bow and gomennasai profusely as they swap out equipment to satisfy pissed off Japanese customers.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @11:02AM (#14100311)
    Slashdot is worse than the main stream press. I have no love for Microsoft but this editorializing is misleading. I have been playing PGR3 for hours without any problems. To characterize the XBOX 360 as "very unstable" seems like a bit of an exageration. I wish Slashdot was more balanced in its reporting.
  • by Mulletproof ( 513805 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @11:04AM (#14100332) Homepage Journal
    Everybody knows that this problem can be solved by boiling your Xbox.

    The obvious solution aside, I'm surpried that people are actually taking this story seriously, at least this early on. Does the overheating Xbox story of the last launch ring any bells? Exactly how over-hyped was that again? I'm holding off on buying a 360 myself, but not for this reason.
  • by djupedal ( 584558 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @11:29AM (#14100538)
    What the Wall Street Journal article failed to capture, however, was the correlation between the recent (mid) production line testing (equipment) glitchs at the factory (PR'd as bottlenecks in the testing methods), and the reality behind those 'two hours or so of automated testing and five minutes of manual testing'...leading us to today's headline.

    Those two hours of supposed 'automated testing' are hands-off, burn-in time only (no loaded media) system testing involved, only logging the device id and power consumption while it sits on the burn rack. The five minutes 'manual' is more like two, with 'testing' being nothing more than voltage leak checks and on/off stabs.

    "It's broke, Jim, and since my expertise is limited to human anatomy, there's no way in hades you're going to use any damn xbox until we get back to earth....sorry."
  • by Urusai ( 865560 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @11:31AM (#14100557)
    ...and 99% of consumer products nowadays are crap. This is something I've noticed, especially in programming, is that quality is meaningless.

    Quality is not some auxiliary adjunct property of an item, it is the SOLE value of the item. Consider, for instance, a pair of roller skates. We can abstractly quantify their quality from 0 to 100. Skates that do not work, or, perhaps, a couple of rocks, would have Skate Quality = 0. Skates that glided effortlessly, with zero chafe, are light and breezy (or warm if ice skates), would have Skate Quality = 100 (being the perfect pair of skates).

    Now, if you buy an item with Skate Quality = 0, anticipating skating value, you just got robbed. Selling a product of low quality is actually, in my opinion, misrepresentation and fraud.

    You buy things for their utility. If you do not receive that utility, you have been robbed. This is the state of affairs today--you are being systematically robbed. For instance, I paid for an eyeglass prescription THREE TIMES, once from an opthamologist, and 1) they all varied considerably, and 2) I still don't have a good prescription for my left eye. That's money stolen from me as far as I'm concerned because I have received little value for my money. Will I have to buy a dozen prescriptions and do a mathematical average of them? WTF is wrong with this world?

    Capitalism is broken.
  • by hazee ( 728152 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @11:41AM (#14100655)
    Maybe it's because the development/testing boxes were quite different to the production boxes?

    For instance, if the development kits arrived in desktop-PC-style cases, then they may have had much better airflow than the production boxes - maybe the production boxes are overheating? (which sounds like a reasonable explanation for the problems experienced)
  • Re:1699 parts ok (Score:5, Interesting)

    by InvalidError ( 771317 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @11:50AM (#14100737)
    At least this will solve M$'s supply problem after the news makes the news and front pages. Remaining early adopters will want to wait until M$ announces its take on things before thinking of buying again.

    On the XBox-360 poll, my answer was Never / X-Mas 2006. Launch prices are too high, I do not care about the coolness factor of having 0-dayz new stuff and I had doubts about how well the initial hardware would work. Quitting the bleeding-edge to stick with mature mainstream stuff has saved me quite a bit of cash and trouble, I'll stick to that.
  • My conspiracy theory (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anita Coney ( 648748 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @11:51AM (#14100743) Homepage
    This story was created, or at least hyped, by retailers to convince us to by extended warranties. I can hear the blue shirted dweebs now, "Oh man you've GOT to buy the warranty. Haven't you heard?! These things are crashing right and left!"
  • by Midnight Thunder ( 17205 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @12:01PM (#14100819) Homepage Journal
    First, I would be curious to know what percentage of XBOX 360s have this issue? I ask this because only people having issues make any noise, with the rest spending too many hours playing with their new system.

    One thing that is worth sharing is the answer 'makaveli87' (post #79 in the Xbox Forums []) gave about his contact with MS Support:

    "Ok I phoned tech support, I was on hold for about 40min. The first guy didn't really know what he was talking about, he kept trying to tell me to do things I had already tried like unplug everything or "read the manual" so he connected me to someone else. This guy seemed like a gamer or he at least knew what he was talking about. He told me that they were having several problems with the launch consoles, the hdd problem, overheating, something to do with the HD to SDTV thing on the back, game disks being scratched , problems with the operating system and a few disk read errors.
    He said the overheating problem will be the most common and that this is what I have. (If your console turns off or the screen freezes 90% of the time its an over heating issue. If you get one of the error screens its and OS problem.) he said for both of these problems they need to replace the console and that it would take 6-10 weeks!!! I asked why and he said that they are experiencing more problems then hey had hoped and that he is supposed to say 6-8 weeks, but last week he was telling people 4-6 and those people would be waiting until mid-january. He wouldn't go further into that though. He did tell me that I could hold onto the system and use it as much as I can for 2 or 3 weeks, send it in then and I would still get it back 6-10 weeks from now.
    Anyways the warranty covers any of those major problems I stated above so that's good. I guess #1 on MS list is to sell all of their consoles to new customers and let the people with problematic ones wait until after the holidays."
  • by Rakthar ( 580956 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @12:41PM (#14101152)

    The beta version is significantly larger (30-40%) than the production version.

    The PS2 has been plagued with reliability problems, both at launch and afterwards. It had similar heating issues and a lot of the same problems were reported. It's a mix of people not understanding that higher powered consoles are more sensitive to placement and heat ventilation, and the production issues that comes with first mass producing something.

    All these same rumors were present at the Xbox launch. Units being returned in droves, DVDs being scratched by the disc player, and all other kinds of malarkey. It ended up being untrue and just a couple of problems being blown out of proportion, and this will as well.

    I think there are more iPOD nanos having problems than there are 360s at the moment, but we're not jumping all over our sacred cow Apple, now are we?

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @12:57PM (#14101280)
    I'm surprised I'm the only one that heard about this.

    My girlfriend works for a big box electronics store.

    They received a memo yesterday stating that 1 in 3 xbox 360's were defective. A warning I guess.

    Anyway she swore me to secrecy as she was herself.

    Believe me if you like, but I bet before long this memo will be circulating the net.

  • Re:Have you tried.. (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @02:02PM (#14101874)
    I have to do that for one of Sony's DirecTV box during the summer (5 year old model)...
  • Re:1699 parts ok (Score:3, Interesting)

    by truthsearch ( 249536 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @02:07PM (#14101935) Homepage Journal
    At least this will solve M$'s supply problem

    They don't have a supply problem. They knew quite well that they'd sell out. They want the news coverage stating their consoles sell out on the first day. Vendors have been complaining about this for weeks.
  • Re:Console problems. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rhavyn ( 12490 ) * on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @03:29PM (#14102652)
    A friend of mine is an avid console gamer. So far, he's gone through 2 playstations, 3 PS2's and and Xbox.

    So you've got a friend who abuses his consoles. That's certainly not representative. My release day PS2 is still working just fine.

    Sony is betting the farm on a lot of market untested technologies, Specifically Bluray. Bluray doesn't nearly have the 5+ years of refinement that DVD has had, and I can bet that looking at a bluray disk funny let alone getting fingerprints or a scratch on the disk will make it very susceptible to read failure.

    They did the same with the DVD drive in the PS2 in 2000. And this is a Sony technology we're talking about, it would be saying a lot more if they didn't trust Blu-ray enough to include it.

    Speaking of Bluray, Yes 50GB is great, but show me a game that uses more than 8.5GB. The only one that comes to my mind is the Everquest series with every expansion they have. Even HL2 and Quake4/Doom III with their mind blowing graphics doesn't crack a single layer of a dual layer DVD, so my guess is that most of that storage will be used for "Sega CD" uses like audio and video, instead of just using the high powered graphics hardware to do the cut scenes for you. Simply put, the only reason they put Bluray in the PS3 is to stronghold the movie industry to make Bluray the High Dev Movie standard, and in doing so, Sony is risking the relibility of the hardware.

    HL2 and Quake4/Doom III have next to do content. Of course they don't take up much space. Now go look at RPGs which actually do require a large amount of storage space for content. Several of the RPGs released in the past year have required multiple DVDs. StarOcean: Till the End of Time is, to the best of my knowledge, the first PS2 game released which required 2 DVDs.

    As for the rest of your comment, blu-ray is a Sony technology. Why wouldn't they be using it?
  • by sho222 ( 834270 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @03:44PM (#14102766)
    My XBOX 360 was waiting for me when I got home from work last night. I had pre-ordered from and selected next day air shipping. My first 5 hours with the machine were not as smooth as I had hoped.

    After getting the old Xbox out of the way and hooking up the component cables, surround sound optical cable, wireless adapter, and ginormous power brick, the first thing I saw on the screen turning it on was an error screen. Black, with E74 in the center bottom - there was some other text as well, but I don't remember what it said and most of it was in another language. Not a great first impression, to say the least. I think the problem was the wireless adapter - I was using the one I bought for my original Xbox. I guess they don't play nice together. I'm not sure why really, I thought it was pretty much equivalent to a wireless bridge. Starting up the console without it plugged in resulted in the startup screen. A big error screen is a pretty harsh welcome - they could have at least set it up to start up the system as normal and then display a friendly error message about having to pony up more money for new accessories: "Sorry. Although your shiny new Xbox 360 might be able to play over 200 legacy Xbox games, the wireless adapter you bought is now just a paperweight with lights." That would be better than E74.

    After getting the Xbox on finally, I discovered that turning on the controller is less than intuitive. Batteries are included, and simple enough to insert. There is a nice sticker with the finger-pointing-hand icon pointing right at the Xbox 360 semisphere button. The message was clear enough: "Press this button to make this thing work." Nope. I pressed it. I pressed it again. Nothing. I unwrapped the second controller that EBGames so kindly packaged for me, and had the same result. Those damned things wouldn't turn on - no lights, no nothing. It was several minutes before I discovered that you need to hold the button down for several seconds before controller will turn on. I even resorted to RTFM, and still didn't find this crucial tidbit of info. That sucked for a while.

    Played PD0 first - no real issues. When I first inserted Project Gotham Racing, however, I saw a nice error screen that told that in order to play this game I must insert it into a Xbox 360 console. I thought that was what I did, but I ejected it and inserted it again just in case. It played the second time around, but when I was done and ready to try out Call of Duty 2, the Xbox 360 just went to a black screen, not the dashboard. Inserting a new disc did nothing - I tried all 4 of them. I had to turn the console off and back on again before it would recognize a game. What the hell? I felt like blowing on the disc and in the tray for old time's sake.

    I could gripe a bit about how counterintuitive it is to get a second player to join in games, but I'll chalk that up to my lack of experience with the new interface...

    After wading through most of the nonesense, I had a pretty good time my first night with the new system, but damn was it a rough start. The games are pretty fun (PDZ, PGR3, CoD2, Kameo), but at no time did I feel completely blown away by the graphics or the gameplay. Kameo is probably the best of the bunch. I fully expect to encounter more glitches, but there is little chance that I'll send the system away for repairs at this point when most people can't even get their hands on one until next year. That would just be insensitive.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @08:18PM (#14104752)
    The first Xbox 360 I got this morning gave me the meanwhile infamous errors 64 and 65. I've exchanged it and the one I have now is locking up on my in certain situations, sometimes blanking the screen completely and sometimes giving me an E74. This thing is nothing but a piece of crap that obviously hasn't been tested. Sorry, but M$ has fucked up again. Hopefully I'll still be able to get my money back so I can get the PS3 next year...
  • by fitten ( 521191 ) on Wednesday November 23, 2005 @09:41PM (#14105227)
    Yeah, that's a good model if your app and is coarse grained and the entry points can be treated as remote procedure calls. Not all parallel computing can fall into that model. More fine grained applications may need communication among multiple programs, each performing partial computations of the whole on partial pieces of the whole dataset. While the upper layer may call Transform(), the lower level code (which also has to be debugged) may have lots of communication between multiple programs running on multiple processors (a program running on four SPUs, for example). It's not exactly like calling RPCs and getting an "answer", it's about sending/receiving partials, data partitioning, and parallel algorithms at those levels.

    I guess when I read the above posts, the parts I think about debugging are exactly the parts the other posters are skipping over by saying "the PPC code has a nice beautiful interface to call prepackaged libraries written and well debugged by someone else". I'm talking about being that someone else who has to write those nice prepackaged libraries that will be called from the PPC. Even worse is a fine grained problem that has to incorporate multiple SPUs AND the PPC core in order to do the calculations. Those are the type problems that the Cell programmers face and are some of the problems that made the MAP1310 very difficult to program.

    I think the Cell will certainly make one type of software popular among games and that's shared engine code, which will fit the model described in the top few posts. Much like various PC games use the Halflife or Doom engines (so they don't have to write an engine which is both time consuming and "difficult"), making their game not much more than a mod, I think the PS3 will increasingly make this a requirement as writing the various engines (physics, sound, visualization, etc.) on the Cells is not something that most game houses will have the time/skill to do. Unfortunately, to me at least, this means even more cookie-cutter games with even less innovation.... Oh look, this brand new game is just Game123 with different textures [joy].

Perfection is acheived only on the point of collapse. - C. N. Parkinson