Games That Stick It To The Man 147
News.com has a piece looking at subversive games with social commentary. The article discusses some titles that hit back against some of the frustrating trends in the industry today. Anti-advergames, specifically one striking out at McDonalds, are mentioned. From the article: "'Behind every sandwich, there is a complex process you must learn to manage,' Molleindustria said in a statement. 'From the creation of pastures to the slaughter, from the restaurant management to the branding. You'll discover all the dirty little secrets that made (McDonald's) one of the biggest companies (in) the world.' Neither McDonalds nor Kinko's responded to multiple requests for comment" More commentary from Guardian Gamesblog on the subject.
Obviously this won't work (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Obviously this won't work (Score:1)
I have a game idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
The premise is this, some radical elements of a religion, really pisssed off over cartoons that were published on the other side of the world, riot and kill people in protest for depicting their religion as being violent, intollerant of free expression and hateful. People seeing these folks reacting like this (violence, murder, etc...) now see this particular religion as being: violent, murderous, and everything that the protestors say they're not. So what happens? People become really afraid of this religion because their actions prove the cartoons are correct. And when people become afraid , they start to do some radical things. Here's were I think I'll have this game go: there's another Holocost for this particular religion except:
It's done to some other religion besides th Jews.
It's done by multiple states - i.e. all over the world ( war on terror ya, know)
This time, no one stops it because the victims (of the holocost) refuse to live in this world with anyone who doesn't beleive the way they do.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:1)
Before violence erupted there were calls for boycotts (perfectly reasonable) to which the EU responded by threatening them if they dared to boycott a member state.
They tried peaceful means first. Violence only came later.
Second, these images of Muhammad are as offensive to muslims as it would be to christians to depict the Virgin Mary getting fucked by a pig with the caption "Technically, she's still a virgin."
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
They tried peaceful means first. Violence only came later.
"We tried to do things peacefully, but they FORCED us to set fire to their embassies and attack law enforcement officers! It's not OUR fault! Honest!"
Please.... No matter how offensive something might be, no matter what they may have tried, nothing gives someone the right to resort to violence because they dislike what someone else said.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:1, Offtopic)
Never heard of the Reformation? Try reading up on calvinism
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
1. Christians did it at some point so it's OK for Muslims to do it now.
2. It's OK to be as ignorant as people 500 years ago were.
Neither answer justifies violence by the "religion of Peace". We are talking about political cartoons. There is no image on the face of the Earth worth jeopardizing a human life for.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
Art depecting things that would be considered highly offensive is nothing new. Crosses in jars of urine, collages of the Virgin Mary made up of porno images, etc. But I don't see Christians rioting in the street, setting things on fire, and calling for people to die over these things, do you?
I certainly have heard the last one. Maybe you haven't watched enough televangelists. There are plenty of violent christians who would gladly beat an artist to death for making such a thing. Maybe that is why they are always shown in large art shows in trendy, civilized places like New York, rather than in small town Texas. Hell, over the course of history christians have killed and tortured at least as many people in the name of their religion as muslims have.
The situation for christians in the US, however, is not even close to the same. These are people who are living in fear of the new christian crusades. They have relatives who were bombed and cousins who were shot in the head. They have recently seen photos of the invading christians raping their people and heard stories of much, much worse. They are understandable frightened and angry and if you don't expect some of them to act on that anger then you don't understand people at all.
Please.... No matter how offensive something might be, no matter what they may have tried, nothing gives someone the right to resort to violence because they dislike what someone else said.
With this I agree. These people are acting out of hatred and anger and fear and while I understand it, I don't condone it.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
"Who would gladly". What the fuck does that mean? Does that mean that they have or not? And if not, are you assuming that they would if given the power, and what evidence do you have to back up your theory.
Well, I have the comments in this thread from what i supposedly one of the more educated segments of the population talking about killing all the muslims. And I have plenty of anecdotal evidence from conversations with people who expressed the opinion that non-christians should be killed or kicked out
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it doesn't, you're right. But it (violence) has always happened, and will always continue to happen, anyway. And thus, it always behooves you to pick your battles with an awareness of the consequences, whether the consequences have a "right" to exist or not.
In some cases, yes, it's justified to insult an entire religion or to ma
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Please.... No matter how offensive something might be, no matter what they may have tried, nothing gives someone the right to resort to violence because they dislike what someone else said.
I dunno. What about verbally threatening someone? It's not really just the words, it's also the credibility, the capability to carry out the words- if someone threatens you and has the means
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
I think in any case where violence appeared to be caused by 'disliking words' (actually I'm not sure what that means, or if anyone has ever claimed that as a justification for violence before), there was some perception on the part of the person resorting to extreme measures that somehow the words were conveying information or communicating intent or attempting to in
Christians rioting --- Abortion clinic anyone? (Score:2)
But I don't see Christians rioting in the street, setting things on fire, and calling for people to die over these things, do you?
US abortion clinic.
'Nuff said.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:4, Interesting)
No excuse. And I've never seen anyting about boycots. Again, no excuse for the violence
They tried peaceful means first. Violence only came later.
Still, no excuse.
Second, these images of Muhammad are as offensive to muslims as it would be to christians to depict the Virgin Mary getting fucked by a pig with the caption "Technically, she's still a virgin."
There would be outrage, but there wouldn't be any of the violence and murder that is occuring now. Any religion that will go nuts over a cartoon but not the murder (by them) of innocent people (not of their religion or even their version of their "faith") is a pathetic excuse for anyone that calls themsleves "children of God". Think of all the times Sunnis, Shiites, etc.. are all exterminating each other because they don't beleive the "right" way.
Again, there's no excuse for acting like animals.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Usually someone decides that a certain event is something that they can use to whip people up into a frenzy.
The only difference between Americans and rioting Arabs, is that the Americans usually save their riots for college football games. The exact same forces are at work, just for different reasons.
In other news: Iran just cut off trade relations with Denmark because of the cartoons and I wouldn't be surprised if another country or two followed suite
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
Saying there is no excuse for the violence just means you don't sympathize with their viewpoint.
When their viewpoint is that a cartoon is an excuse for arson and murder and other violent acts, then you're right. I don't sypathize with their viewpoint.
People insult Christianity and Judaism constantly. If Christians and Jews say that people shouldn't say such things and create such art, they are blasted as being hateful and intolerant of others viewpoints. When Muslims use art as an excuse for arson and m
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:1, Offtopic)
Well guess that just means I will have to stock up on plenty of Carlsberg [carlsberg.com] and Danish Cheeses [gourmetfoodstore.com].
OT (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.civitas.org.uk/blog/archives/2006/02/i
Basically, the writer contends that a bunch of Danish Imams took these cartoons (plus others) on a 'tour' of the Middle East to whip up some fury.
Now the really interesting part is when this blogger explains why they did this. He thinks it is because Denmark is going to become chair of the UN Security Council... and guess who is getting referred to the Security Council?
Iran.
Read his conclusions, he makes an interesting argument.
Re:OT (Score:2)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2, Insightful)
There would be outrage, but there wouldn't be any of the violence and murder that is occuring now. Any religion that will go nuts over a cartoon but not the murder (by them) of innocent people (not of their religion or even their version of their "faith") is a pathetic excuse for anyone that calls themsleves "children of God".
Your problem is that you are ascribing motives to a religion, not to people who happen to be members of that religion. I fully support free speech and the right to print cartoons
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
It is also completely indefensible.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:3, Informative)
It is also completely indefensible.
Some religion had this saying in one of it's principal works. It was something along the lines of, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I take it you've never acted rashly out of fear or anger, especially while subjected to both terrible violence and mockery of your beliefs?
And anyone who would make excuses for it has their head up their ass and doesn't see that making excuses for violence is the reason we have so much violence.
I specifically did not ex
Extremism violates the social contract. (Score:2)
The real problem being that "extremists" actively work to harm individuals who have done nothing to harm the extremists and pose no direct threat to anyone?
This form of extremism in any cause is indefensible, and the reason we have so much violence is that extremism fails to drive enough of the people who matter to violence and hate-- the members of
Re:Extremism violates the social contract. (Score:3, Insightful)
The real problem being that "extremists" actively work to harm individuals who have done nothing to harm the extremists and pose no direct threat to anyone?
The US military certainly fits that definition. Dropping bombs on cities filled with civilians is certainly actively harming those who have done nothing to them. For that matter, pretty much no one in Iraq did anything to the US at all. We just invaded them "for their own good" and now thousands are dead, they have unreliable electricity and polluted
Re:I stopped reading after this... (Score:3, Informative)
Until I see "fatwas" or whatever they're called from the Islamic leadership or some other strong condemnation of these rioter's actions who call themselves Muslims, I will think that the Islamic people in this world condone the rioter's and terrorist's actions. End of story.
Not too many of the US papers have bothered to mention it, but muslim religious leaders as well as the heads of state of several predominantly muslim nations have spoken out against the violence, saying that while the cartoons are bl
Religions don't "go nuts" (Score:2)
Aw, come on, where do you get your news? Fox News?
Religions don't "go nuts". People do, regardless of their religion.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:4, Informative)
The means are irrelevant, except that they have become so grossly disproportionate. Their very goal - the suppression of speech they find disagreeable - is illegitimate in liberal societies.
Second, these images of Muhammad are as offensive to muslims as it would be to christians to depict the Virgin Mary getting fucked by a pig with the caption "Technically, she's still a virgin."
Yet, curiously, when confronted with such works as the piss Christ and the elephant dung Virgin Mary, Christians were told to suck it up and accept that as the price of living in a pluralistic society. And guess what? They did.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
There's no comparison there.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Mass rioting for days in over a dozen countries by thousands of people;
2. The formal protests of half-a-dozen Governments;
3. The destruction on several embassies and consular buildings;
4. The suspension of diplomatic relations or closing of embassies by a couple countries;
5. Invasion of EU-run buildings by masked, armed mobs demanding apologies.
The reaction of the Moslem world is way, way over the top and utterly shameful. The rest of the world seems to have advanced beyond the 12th century, yet there still seem to be barbarians to be found.
-Charles
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:3, Informative)
I want to add two points:
First, many of the Muslims who are being quoted in the media want apologies from or punishment given to the cartoonists themselves, not just the publishers. And that's completely out of line -- I can't imagine that it's actually consistent with most Muslim theological doctrine, either -- simply because a religion (any religion, take your pick) sets out rules for its own followers. It doesn't say anything about how other
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
He was fascinated by the fact that whenever the moslems get all bent out of shape over something, they destroy their own country first (including embassies, which cuts off diplomatic relations and etc). They may get around to figuring out how to do something in the other guy's country, but FIRST they destroy their OWN.
On the other hand, when first world countries get annoyed, they go blow up the OTHER guy's country. It never even occurs to them to do something
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Really? Do you have any accounts of Christian anti-abortion suicide bombers?
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
I am unaware of any suicide bombings of abortion clinics in the U.S. There have been some snipings, point-blank shootings, planted bombs and arson of abortion clinics along with threats to doctors and staff. However, we're also talking maybe a two dozen incidents over a dozen years. They are also soundly condemned by the general population and treated as crimes by the government. Mostly there are non-violent protests. They may be disruptive, but gene
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
I read in a article that someone down in Libanon (Beirut) said that either the publishers of the cartoons were trying to provoke (ie starting a war) or clueless.
I think they were just curious.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you watch South Park? Do we have christians around the world up in arms, threatening to boycot, kidnap and kill every day despite christianity being ridiculed completely on South Park?
For starters, if you watch South Park: Most of the catholic church is made up by child abusers. Jesus has a tv show, he occasionally does a boxing match with Satan. Satan is gay, but in reality not evil at all. Hell is far more nicer place than heaven. God is one ugly animal who sometimes uses vulgar language. Only mormons can get into heaven. The head of the catholic church is a giant spider queen. Ugh
Not to mention you got many Black Metal bands pretty much singing about Mary being a whore, Jesus being a moron and who knows what else. Pick up some Cradle of Filth, Deicide or Gorgoroth!
I won't even get into the "lighter" side of church ridicule from the Simpsons and other comedy shows. However, we don't have christians all around the world calling for boycot and revenge and murder over this do we? I am sure some/many christians are offended by those cartoons, bands, whatnot, but hey, they are smart enough to realize it's a free society with free speech. They enjoy freedom of religion, while we enjoy free speech! Fair deal no?
IMO, the whole muslim world is WAYYYYY too sensitive about this issue. I find it ironic when they insult the jewish and christian religions in their cartoons it's all good, but when someone else does something similar it's the end of the world!
(burn karma burn)
The muslim world needs to police itself before trying to comment/police the non muslim world.
(/burn carma burn)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:4, Interesting)
IMO, the whole muslim world is WAYYYYY too sensitive about this issue. I find it ironic when they insult the jewish and christian religions in their cartoons it's all good, but when someone else does something similar it's the end of the world!
First, it is not "the muslim world" it is particular individuals. Second, christians are not currently the subject of what must seem to them (and many objective observers) as a crusade where their countries are invaded by foreigners from another continent with another religion who kill them, mock their religion, sell off all their resources and land, and print pictures of their men being raped. Second, they are being purposely manipulated into this action by people with a political interest in things, as the three most offensive cartoons (like the one showing a dog fucking mohammed) were never printed in any newspaper that anyone can find and seem to have been made or disseminated by european muslims to aggravate the situation.
If you honestly think a bunch of scared and angry hicks from texas would not attack a foreign embassy in response to published cartoons of jesus having intercourse with a pig, if they felt threatened and thought it likely they would be conquered by invading muslims in the near future then you don't understand people in general (and probably have never watched the 700 club).
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Man, you've got a serious case of identifying with the violator here.
On a certain September 11th, we (the US) were invaded by foreigners from another continent with another
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:3, Informative)
Man, you've got a serious case of identifying with the violator here. On a certain September 11th, we (the US) were invaded by foreigners from another continent with another religion who killed many of us.
Yes, and those foreigners died. They were flying the planes. Then that was used as an excuse to invade a completely different country, one which was actually quite hostile to the organization involved. You do know Hussein was hunting them because they wanted to overthrow him too, right?
They distribu
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:4, Interesting)
Once again, religion is shown to be what it is - a system of control that leads to evil deeds.
What an interesting statement. Religious, moral, and ethical beliefs are all subjective; as is the entire concept of evil. Religion did not cause this violence, people acting specifically to incite anger by attacking and disrespecting the beliefs of others did, and it was wholly intentional. The same type of behavior could be triggered by nationalist, philosophical, or many other kinds of belief. Anger, as I said, is the instinctual response to remove a threat by destroying it. They were attacked and they responded. It would be the same as if under very stressful conditions, where mathematics were being outlawed and mathematicians burned if someone insisted on yelling in your face "Pi is exactly three, bitch." Maybe you would react calmly, but maybe, under extreme stress and fear you would react violently. We all have beliefs and breaking points.
What I AM saying is that the general, public perception of all Muslims is only harmed when they find out about things like this.
And I'm saying that public perception, that prejudice of judging muslims only as a group is just as wrong as the violence some particular muslims committed.
Ahh yes, lets ridicule the beliefs and religions of others. Obviously then, you have all the answers. Tell me then, what is the nature of reality and thought and the fundamental basis for ethics. Now tell me in simple terms how should all communities co-exist and resolve disputes? There is plenty of real, useful reasoning in islam, just as there is in christianity and buddhism. To claim that a religion is "wrong" and its adherents "stupid" is the pinnacle of hubris.
Furthermore, attacking an embassy is itself a statement that you are not interested in rational negotiation
I think we previously established that the individuals in question were reacting emotionally, rather than with reason.
Don't make assumptions about what I think. You want to know what I think? How's about fucking ASKING me? Don't tell me. I don't respond well to that kind of bullshit.
Fine, but you were responding to what I had written by attacking the concept of understanding the perspectives of others. You're the one who made both moral judgments and assertions that my comments explaining the perspective of others was "the reason we have so much violence." If you do not want to be considered intolerant, show tolerance. If you do not want be seen as unsympathetic to the suffering of others show empathy. All your remarks were attacks on understanding and I for one reject such holier than thou crap. If you can't put yourself in the shoes of another and understand their reasoning and perspective you have business judging their actions, or condemning them.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Oh, I can put myself into their shoes to some degree... But when you respond to a political cartoon with firebombings, I absolutely cannot support that at all. And let's face it, I can't get into the shoes of a Christian, really. I just can't stretch my
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed. Indonesia, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, U.K., France, Canada (protests this weekend coming up) are all being invaded and the people are killed there regulary by people with another religion. Oh wait
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Christianity has a central religious center that governs the exact details of the religion - in this case, it is the Vatican. (There are some splinter groups of Christians that have their own interpretation of the
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Again, the muslims need to police themselves before looking outside their own backyard.
Muslims need to police themselves? When the US invades another country an murders thousands based upon a lie do we say, people in green need to be less violent? When the IRA blows up a car do we say, Christians need to stop being so violent? Christians for the most part invaded another country and murdered thousands of them. Maybe the christians should stop being violent before they start trying to interfere with musl
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Complain about THAT, then; it's perfectly justified. But don't use it as an excuse to complain about cartoons that you view as offensive to your religion, because
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
But don't use it as an excuse to complain about cartoons that you view as offensive to your religion, because one issues doesn't have anything to do with the other.
Yes, they do. The muslim people of the middle east feel they are being persecuted partially because of their religion and partially because they are being made scapegoats for the actions of others who are fighting the US. Then a series of cartoons is released that not only mocks their religion (reinforcing the first belief) but equating their
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
So to clarify "Death to the infidels" is not a cry to religious genocide, but a cheer for the Jihad basketball team. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Oh I must have been confused. I missed the news report that told me how Iran had bombed major US cities, invaded, decimated our military, looted our treasury, sold off our nation resources, built ten permanent military bases around the country and build a giant, concrete walled compound in Washington DC from which they are managing the creation of our
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
You seem to be very passionate about your cause. So passionate, you don't let small things like facts get in your way. Iran has not been bombed, invaded, looted, or anything else by the United States. But I will forgive your ignorance, friend.
Who ever claimed it had been? Iraq has been, which is where the analogy comes in.
but the fact is, Hussein was committing acts of genocide against his own people.
Yeah, we flew over to a foreign country, who had coincidentally not been towing the line as one of o
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:1)
Yes, I distinctly remember the riots, kidnappings, burnings of embassies by "thousands of protesters", death threats agains all non-Catholics, and other mass hysteria that followed the airing of this episode of South Park [wikipedia.org].
Oh, and remember how all of those people who started the Fuck the Skull of Jesus [mit.edu] stuff wer
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:1)
I've seen a TShirt with a depiction of Mary that was captioned "She's only a virgin if you don't count anal" Do you see Catholics killing over that?
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
I just read some articles on this subject in the San Francisco Chronicle. It was a really interesting read because they had a sub-article titled something about cartoonists playing into the hands of extremists on both sides, basically an anti-free-speech article. Both it and the main article above it were very right-wing, which I found exceptionally interesting in a San Francsico newspaper.
But anyway, let m
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
Well said. And consider this: they've made it clear they can't even tolerate freedom of speech in another country, even one as far away and relatively insignificant as Denmark. How do you think that bodes for ever setting up any sort of truly free society in the Muslim world? Not very well, I'm afraid.
As for the kind of society they would set up, given any say in the matter -- I would s
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Once again, The Onion Predicts The Future [theonion.com].
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
So become an atheist or (if, like me, you're a lazy Gen-Xer and can't be bothered to commit to any particular belief) an agnostic. That way you won't give a shit about any offensive religious imagery!
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Freedom to worship how you please != freedom from being made fun of.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Who's hiding behind anonymity?
And don't even get me started on Salmon Rushdie.
Salmon Rushdie wrote a mediocre book that no one would have read if it wasn't for the bounty that was placed on his head.
And on another note just wait till Iran even tries to test a nuke.
Why shouldn't they be allowed to produce nuclear technology? It's hypocritical for all of these nations who have nuclear weapons in their arsenal to tell Iran that they can not.
The Islamic mindset does n
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
Please, give us a weblink!
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:1)
I don't really care what someone believes in but when they insist I believe in THEIR god and are willing to kill me if I don't, well gee, they kind of forced the issue, huh?
If you actually made that game... (Score:2)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:1)
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
But he said it like it was a bad thing.
Re:I have a game idea... (Score:2)
I believe this also
Or at least if they are saying so, there's very little evidence of it in the media. When the US media goes looking for a Muslim ap
but you are the man, sir (Score:5, Funny)
Re:but you are the man, sir (Score:1)
If anything its a bit redundant, but if it got him the free subscription then maybe we should all try to be nicer.
Re:but you are the man, sir (Score:2)
Re:but you are the man, sir (Score:3, Funny)
Re:but you are the man, sir (Score:2, Funny)
Re:but you are the man, sir (Score:2)
...and this surprising...how? (Score:3, Insightful)
As if nobody had ever played emogame [emogame.com]...now there's a game with political content....
This is just old-fashioned "cultural work," as the communists used to call it. Use a popular art form to drive home political messages. Songs, dances, operas, novels....all can be used as propaganda. Why not games? The U.S. Army sems to think so--witness the success of the America's Army game.
Re:...and this surprising...how? (Score:2)
Yeah, whatever happened to that game?
A Game that Really Sticks it to the Man (Score:3, Funny)
Katari Damashi is the name, I think. There's two other sequels to it.
Re:A Game that Really Sticks it to the Man (Score:3, Informative)
Re:A Game that Really Sticks it to the Man (Score:2)
Geez (Score:2)
Maybe it would be better to realize that this "message" is totally and completely racist, bigoted and prejudiced. Of course, all of "them" are ticking immoral, barbarian time bombs ready to turn
Also offtarget... (Score:2)
Or you could just watch the movie "The Siege" [imdb.com].
Re:Geez (Score:3, Interesting)
Some people will see that as an indictment of the U.S. Army, it's not. It's the simple observation that when you screw with people's lives they get angry, get weapons, and screw you back. That's human nature, we're all capable of violence to protec
Re:Geez (Score:2)
Oh, please. What crapola.
The difference between the US Army and the Terrorists is that the US Army targets the bad guys, while Terrorists target people at random (hence the name "terrorist" -- they want people to feel fear, so they'll pressure political leaders to do what the terrorists want).
If the US Army happens to kill innocents, there are two reason:
1) The terrorists hide among inno
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Geez (Score:2)
I'm sure it does happen. The question, however, is intent. Terrorists intend to kill innocent people.
Re:Geez (Score:1)
Re:Geez (Score:1)
Note that I am not defending terroris(m|ts)...but, in an effort to better understand, I think I should point out that most terrorists do not actually target people they believe are innocent. They merely believe differently about innocence.
In the eyes of a person willing to strap a bomb on their body and self-detonate in a shopping mall, none of the people they maim or kill are innocent. In the eyes of many U.S. soldiers and leaders, few (if any) of the civilia
Re:Geez (Score:2)
I need to get out of this conversation, because I'm getting too irritated, but to think that the US soldiers and leaders feel that none of the civilians they've killed were innocent is just idiotical prejudice against the military. Yeah, they're just all
Re:Geez (Score:2)
1) The U.S. Army is in Iraq to protect the American people. They are there because terrorists attacked Innocent people in the U.S. The soldiers are there in a misguided attempt to protect the people of the United States of America.
2) Why did Terrorists attack the U.S.? Because the U.S. has a history of interfering in the Middle East, of providing funds and equipment to dictators, including Saddam Hussein. They attacked the U.S. in a misguided attempt to defend th
Re:Geez (Score:2)
At the bottom, the people on both sides are fundamentally the same. It's only the politicians who would have you think differently.
Re:Geez (Score:2)
3) The noncombatants (not necessary to use '"innocents"', which automatically casts a shadow over them) were not aware that their neighbors were terrorists.
4) Instead of risking a few people to put men on the ground and do a safe
Re:Geez (Score:2, Insightful)
That and Terrorists blow up police stations in Iraq, coffee houses in Isreal, office buildings in the US, wedding parties in Lebanon...
Re:Geez (Score:2)
Have you ever seen the movie, "Red Dawn?" It tackles this very issue, with Americans as the terrorists. The Basic plot is the Russians invade and grab a huge chunk of the US, which they occupy. Then as the Russian army kills rebels and dissidents the local hicks wage a hit and run war against them, planting bombs and trying to stay alive in the mountains. Every time the Russians execute some locals, the resistance grows, just as it always does in countries around the world under the same circumstances.
The
Re:Geez (Score:2)
Bullshit. One of them attacks military targets. Another of them attacks any target.
Then americans soldiers are all terrorists. We bombed cities and killed thousands of innocent civilians. The US media calls anyone who uses guerilla tactics against the US terrorists, but what do we call our special forces when they sneak into another country and murder a civilian member of their government or blow up research center? I'll tell you what a terrorist is. A terrorist is someone who uses terror as a weapon. T
But how good are the games? (Score:2)
Re:But how good are the games? (Score:3, Interesting)
It was not actually fun!
Steer Madness is pretty good (Score:2)
Re:Steer Madness is pretty good (Score:2)
Games with an agenda (Score:3, Insightful)
Want to really hurt "the man"? (Score:4, Insightful)
Consider this. Just for a moment, clear your mind of all the hatred and pent up rage within your soul. Then let's think logically for a moment. Let's assume that votes really count, that politicians really do have to get elected, and that the government is really ultimately run by the politicians, when push comes to shove. Who is "the man" that is oppressing the people? It is the government. But the government is made up of politicians, or people accountable to politicians. And the politicians are elected by the people. So "the man" is really "the people". People are abusing themselves.
Let's look at it another way--"the man" being corporate suits. Where do they get their power? From their money. Where do they get their money? From the people. If the people stopped eating at McDonalds or buying Nike shoes, these companies really do go out of business. And the corporations really are held accountable to the politicians. When they really screw up they get thrown in jail for real, that is, when the politicians want them in jail. And who elects the politicians?
In both cases, the power ultimately rests with the people. There is no need to fight "the man" except by participating in politics and participating in business. In fact, you yourself can become "the man" if you figure out how to get elected or how to make a billions dollars a year. "The man" is a position that is held at the whim of the people. If they don't like you, you don't get elected. If they don't like your products, you don't get your money.
When you fight against "the man" you are really fighting against the people in this country. Keep that in mind.
Re:Want to really hurt "the man"? (Score:2)
I saw a mildly humorous commercial for tacos or something the other day in which a character was refering to someone as 'the man'. He wasn't in the least advocating violence or 'hatred campaigns', and such advocacy wasn't even part of the joke. 'The
Re:Simbabwe. (Score:2)