IBM Adds Videogame Console Chips to Mainframes 103
GoIBMPS3 writes "Soon the powerful 'Cell' microprocessor that fuels Sony's PlayStation 3 console will be available in IBM mainframe computers. The intent is to allow high-performance machines to run complex online games and virtual worlds. 'The integration initially will be accomplished by networking the mainframe with IBM's Cell blades, but eventually the Cells will be plugged more directly into the mainframes via PCI adapter cards, IBM said. It's the latest twist in IBM's years-long effort to keep mainframes not only relevant but also cutting-edge. IBM is touting the partnership as an example of hybrid computing--a trend sweeping the high-performance computing industry as companies augment general-purpose servers with special-purpose chips that to accelerate particular tasks.'"
Also in the works: (Score:5, Funny)
However the prototype was destroyed in a freak bowling/mountain dew/pizza accident.
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However the prototype was destroyed in a freak bowling/mountain dew/pizza accident."
Add my monitor and keyboard suffering a similar fate.
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You must be new here etc etc
A number of BOFH episodes come to mind (Score:4, Interesting)
PCI? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:PCI? (Score:4, Informative)
Informative parent post. And what about the FAH? (Score:2)
I'd be very curious to see when they create some Folding-at-Home (FAH) clients. The PS3 clients are kicking butt, and I'll bet that hasn't escaped the attention of IBM. Distributed computing is an unappreciated upcoming technology.
In fact, I have to wonder if IBM's work on the WCG isn't part if its effort to develop this sort of technology and to create some high visibility track record.
PCI?-(Pretty Clear and Insightful) (Score:1, Funny)
Ummm. We're talking about a Cnet audience there. If we wanted nonformulific, and complex stories filled with technical details, we'd read slashdot.
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One of the key features of the IBM mainframes is high-availability - the machines never go down. That means they have to support the ability to replace failing cards while the system is up. For PCI cards, that almost always means a dedicated PCI bus per PCI slot - so you can power down and reboot individual cards without affecting any other cards (because there are no other cards on the same bus to be affected).
I would be
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the run 1 bus per back plane and if my memory is right they can freeze a slot for hotswap and the buss will buffer commands to it until it is resumed..
never had a chance to mess with much of it..
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Dude!
I think just MAYBE IBM knows what its doing hardware-wise. There are a handfull of manufacuters of main frame computers that you can plunk into a room and hook 100,000 users up a single machine and have them all banging the same DB2 or Oracle database without the thing even blinking an eye and IBM is if not THE best at it then they are certainly in the top 2.
Your thinking in PC terms. These guys invented the notion of throughput.
It would be something to see a Z series loaded up with cell processor
Flying Cars! (Score:5, Funny)
And it will be as powerful as today's most advanced videogames...
Makes quite a bit of sense to me (Score:4, Insightful)
And the Cell isn't really intended for general-purpose use - it's far more appropriate to use it in a system where the code has been written and designed specifically for it.
What better market than one which is composed almost entirely of people with reasonably specific, defined needs?
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Really? I could be wrong about this but I thought they were pushing the Cell as the next great awakening in chips, sure, game consoles and mainframes but they were also talking about cell phones and other portable electronics.
Just what I remember though, I didn't devote much memory to it.
Re:Makes quite a bit of sense to me (Score:5, Funny)
That's ok - the PS3 designers didn't devote much memory to the Cell processors either.
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Which is exactly what doesn't happen with cellphones and portable electronics. Generally, the manufacturer and network has quite a bit of say over what runs on them so code can be developed specifically for them.
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Not really, as the Bank I work for currently has ~25 zBoxes and we're adding a few more.
We generally purchase them outright and then pay the frame charge when / if we want to upgrade.
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All business (at least those that want to stay in business) have support contracts be it low (PC's and blades)
mainframs are perfect for MMORPGs (Score:3, Insightful)
Really high performance
Easily scalable,
and virtual worlds will never go down for any reason outside the code.
To try and replicate those efforts on PC servers is a waste of money.
Properly done, those issues that arise in many MMORPGs when a large percentage of their population goes to on area for an event....Blizzard I'm looking at you.
Re:mainframs are perfect for MMORPGs (Score:5, Insightful)
Really high performance
Easily scalable,
and virtual worlds will never go down for any reason outside the code.
Don't forget these added bonuses:
So expensive you could buy an entire data center's worth of x86 servers instead of leasing a single mainframe for a year.
Requires members of the dwindling cult of mainframe experts to administer.
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that and i don't think it is that expensive compared to alot of 1u rack mount servers.. that and nothing can touch the i/o of a mainframe
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For sale on Ebay (Score:5, Funny)
Pay for shipping and I'll send you the punch cards.
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@
accelerate particular tasks? (Score:1)
Networks Ground to a Halt! (Score:4, Funny)
More news at 11.
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(Come to that, what about middling-high end workstations of the sort most of us probably spend most of our day? I've the germ of a nice computer collection here, with a 68000, a Z80, various Pentium "0" and upwards intel boxes and couple of Sparc machines. Not eno
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Not me. I assumed it involved sadomasochism as soon as I read it.
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E_TOO_MUCH_INFORMATION
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Actually they're mostly powered down most of the time. But I find it hard getting to sleep without the soothing whirr of the fans...
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Cell is not a "Console Chip" (Score:4, Interesting)
The Cell is no more a console chip than the x86 (used in XBox) or the PowerPC (used in the 360). Yes, it is used in a console, but I hate to see such a powerful chip "type-cast" to the console. I'm glad IBM is cutting the Cell loose by actually using it for something other than console gaming. However, I wish they would have used a better example than "Virtual Worlds" for its uses. Something like Medical Imaging, 3D Rendering or even Weather Forecasting would have been so much better towards breaking the Cell from its gaming niche.
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Yes, I do realize I've used VR gaming and world design for my two examples. So sue me.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_processor [wikipedia.org]
As the parent said, the Cell CPU was by no means designed specifically for the PS3.
CELL isn't a video game processor! (Score:5, Insightful)
So, while the CELL is inspired by GPU design, I think it would be more appropriate to say that CELL is a supercomputing architecture that, being what it is, is also highly suitable for graphics applications. As such, I think what the slashdot article says is silly. What IBM is doing is putting a supercomputing architecture into a mainframe. This isn't weird. It's sensible and a wise move, technically and competitively.
Re:CELL isn't a video game processor! (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I don't think I'd use the word "supercomputing" to describe the distributed signal processing for which GPUs are now being used. GPUs won't be used on "real" supercomputers until they decide to implement proper 64-bit IEEE 754 (floating point) support. In that sense, the Cell is more immediately useful for HPC, and along with IBMs presence in that area, you'll see a supercomputer using Cell chips first.
Cool... (Score:4, Funny)
(Actually, that's all bullshit. Don't play games, never been to a LAN party, don't know where to find one. But that's never stopped posting here before.)
The Cell Isn't a "Game Chip" (Score:5, Informative)
The Cell has never been intended solely to be a "game chip." It was always intended to be useful in large supercomputer type environments.
The Folding At Home client is an example of a large clustered-based application that uses the Cell as a math processor, as is the recent "real-time raytracing" demo. Both are applications of the Cell in a "mainframe" type environment.
So it's not surprising that IBM would be releasing Cell-based machines - that's been the plan all along. It was never intended just to be used in the PS3.
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Yea, right. Also, I'd like to use this opportunity to welcome our new single-precision overlords...
Serious uses my arse.... (Score:2)
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Any chance this will drive down the manuf. costs? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Any chance this will drive down the manuf. cost (Score:1)
PCI Card with a Cell (Score:3, Interesting)
I would think there would be a healthy market for a 'cell accelerator card', especially in the world I come from (Modeling and Simulation)...
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So, I got a PS3, and I got a Quad G5 to run the sim on, and it was cheaper and works about as well.
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Re:PCI Card with a Cell (Score:4, Interesting)
The best hobbyist platform is definitely the PS3. Linux runs great on it and HDMI->DVI adaptors let you use it with a DVI monitor (we run them at 1920x1600 on Dell 24" LCDs). As long as PS3s are in the $500-600 price range, there's no real incentive for another low-cost Cell platform. Of course, access to the graphics pipeline is limited, but the SPUs are much easier to program and more flexible than GPUs for general purpose computation.
If you do bite the bullet and go with a PS3, we've developed a Python library -- CorePy [corepy.org] -- for programming the SPUs (and PPU) directly. It replaces assembly/intrinsics with Python function calls and provides components for building and optimzing SPU programs. It takes the sting out of using the C-based tools and gives you more flexibility with how you use the SPUs.
-Chris
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...and it should be noted that on the blade servers or any embedded board you happen upon, you're not going to have a GPU at all. ;)
How much is a full PS3 devkit anyway? Compared to an IBM mainframe, the PS3 route may be still be cheaper...
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You think someone's going to release a Cell board for under $500 (or even $600)? Heck, embedded dev/"hobbiest" boards for stuff like ColdFire [steroidmicros.com] are $200 and ARM [littlechips.com] are $399+ (most places don't even have quotes on the site), and those are cheap, low-end systems.
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This is irrelevant. The poster was looking for a hobbiest solution for Cell, not a mass-market platform. Yes, you can get a contract for 100k XScale boards for a good rate: this is why people use them. 50 $400 devkits aren't a big expense for such an endeavor, either.
But for a hobbiest developer looking for a cheap way to hack around on the platform, $500-$600 for a Cell system is dirt cheap, even compared to the lowest-end devkits for embedded systems, as shown.
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Mostly for streaming data, not gaming. (Score:3, Informative)
IBM has been talking this up for a while. The idea is to offload some "streaming stuff" onto the Cell processors. The phrase "XML acceleration" has been used [ibm.com], which probably means the Cell gets the job of taking some DB2 result and pumping it out in XML. It's also useful for SSL encryption and other related streaming-type tasks.
This is a traditional IBM transaction processing approach. The mainframe is surrounded by lesser machines which handle the communications and formatting, extract the transaction which needs access to the data, ships that to the mainframe, gets a result back, and then formats a reply to the requestor. In the green-screen terminal era, that was done by dedicated hardware. In the web era, too much of that work moved onto the mainframe itself.
Think of this usage of the Cell as offloading the front half of Apache to peripheral processors. When your AJAX app makes an XMLHttpRequest, the idea is that the front-end machines get the request, decode it, wait until it's complete, then pass one single transaction to the mainframe. A single reply comes back, is reformatted as XML, and is shipped out to the client. The number of events processed by the mainframe goes way down, and all the protocol work is offloaded to the low-cost Cell machines with tiny memories.
Has nothing to do with gaming, though. They're not putting the PS3's GPU (from NVidia) on mainframes.
Still only 256KB (not MB) per Cell CPU, though. That's too small. Just cramming the whole protocol stack in there will fill most of the memory. I think this thing will really start to fly when IBM gets up to a 2-4MB per Cell CPU. Then you'll be able to fit the front-end processing for a web server in the Cell. Until then, it's a niche product.
256mb global, 256k local (Score:2)
256k is for an SPE. The Cell CPU itself is currently configured for 256mb.
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The WebSphere DataPower XML Accelerator XA35 is more like a web page template engine front end. The front end faces the HTML clients, and the back end faces some system that delivers results in XML. That's a potential Cell application, because it can be done as a streaming operation, with the template and the transaction results merged in a Cell SPE. Might make sense for catalog applications, where the user does a search, and after the search is complete, a nice-looking catalog page needs to be built.
(
Finally! (Score:4, Funny)
IBM Z9 - Now with BluRay! (Score:1)
maybe it will come to pass afterall (Score:1, Offtopic)
Sweeping New Trend (Score:3, Insightful)
As I recall my 286 had a Math Coprocessor.
Years later I bought a hardware MPEG decoder card so that I could watch DVD's without skipping on my old Pentium ii.
And over the last several years I've installed GPU boards to accelerate some particular video rendering tasks.
Its nice to see the idea of special purpose chips for hardware acceleration is finally catching on in high performance computing.
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Not a Console Chip (Score:2, Informative)
The title is misleading. The Cell processor is not a "console" chip, it is a microprocessor. Period. So what if Sony decided to use the Cell processor in the PS3? They could have selected from any number of processors: AMD64, x86, PPC, Motorola 6800.. whatever!
The Cell processor is and always has been designed for shipping out complex calculations to sub-processing units (I believe their latest term is Synergistic Processing Units [SPUs]?), it was not designed for purpose of Sony bragging about it.
Aikon
Isn't the processor (Score:3, Insightful)
this is irrelevant. (Score:1)
the only reason people still use the AS/400 or any other IBM mainframe is because it was too expensive to justify scrapping for something modern.
the AS/400 or iSeries as it's been renamed, could be replaced in a heartbeat by a LAMP server with an AJAX frontend for 1% of the cost.
you can run LAMP on an iSeries now if I'm not mistaken.
Re:this is irrelevant. (Score:5, Informative)
An AS/400 is a midrange, not a mainframe. Despite having a large span of scalability, the AS/400 only overlaps the bottom end of the mainframe in performance.
Also, the reasons people buy AS/400's and mainframes are as follows:
Extremely high reliability and security
Performance and scalability
Protection of software investment
justify scrapping for something modern
Do you realize that the AS400 hardware and operating system is more "modern" than Unix? Did you realize that the as400 hardware and operating system have key features that other OS's lack today but most people are moving that direction? Do some research on security and the as400, for example.
the AS/400 or iSeries as it's been renamed, could be replaced in a heartbeat by a LAMP server with an AJAX frontend for 1% of the cost.
Have you ever seen an AS/400 that required even an operator? High end, sure, but small to medium business the controller puts in the backup tape and that's about it. Hardware/software, you're right, but unless you include support salaries then you are comparing apples to oranges, although you could make the exact same argument about Sun/Oracle being more expensive than LAMP.
Where is? (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, here it is.
Marketing Cell Games (Score:3, Interesting)
The intent is to make the high-end Cells (with all 8 SPEs working) cheap by selling millions of PS3s with lower-grade (6 SPEs) Cells, a scale economy that big machines ("mainframes") couldn't achieve on their own.
They're not going to be running "games" like VirtuaFighter on mainframes, especially not without the 9x as fast RSX video chip the PS3 includes. But they will be allowing us to run supercomputer-fast Monte Carlo simulations on PS3 under Linux.
So I guess if their marketdroids keep lying to us about making IBM mainframes into game consoles, it's worth it if they keep delivering the reverse, which is much more interesting.
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This one is good, put it in a blade.
This one is bad, sell it to Sony.
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And yes, one of the 7 SPEs in the PS3 is re
That's what the world needs, a $1,000,00 console (Score:2, Funny)
Misleading headline (Score:2)
Brilliant, gaming is important! (Score:1)
OS/400 on cell? (Score:1)
At last! (Score:3, Funny)
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As you may guess he was a mainframe programmer
"GameFrame" (Score:1)
Speed up the slow mainframe please.... (Score:1, Informative)
Cell and mainframe, truly weird combination (Score:2)
That may be something that has to wait for the 65nm 'Cell 2' which IBM described at Cool Chips X
Try reading the synopsis (Score:5, Interesting)
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Congratulations on being an ignorant toolbox.