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Microsoft XBox (Games)

Microsoft Bans Modified Xbox 360s From Xbox Live 334

Posted by Zonk from the and-i'm-really-glad-they're-doing-it-too dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has now officially started banning Xbox 360s that have had their DVD drive firmware modified from Live, possibly using information brought in by the Crackdown-originated Halo 3 beta downloads. Scene site forums have already collapsed under traffic, and Microsoft has officially confirmed that they are banning modded Xbox 360s to keep the online playing field fair and level."
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Microsoft Bans Modified Xbox 360s From Xbox Live More

Microsoft Bans Modified Xbox 360s From Xbox Live

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  • What I'm saying is that unlike software (including music), you don't buy a license to use/listen to it. You buy the physical hardware and you can do whatever you want to it. Now, if you do something that is enabling you to cheat in the game (and breaking the software license), then I don't see why Microsoft shouldn't ban you and the console. However, if you mod it in a way that does not affect gameplay, why should you be banned?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by zyl0x ( 987342 )
      Problem is, how are they supposed to tell the difference between a console modified to enable cheating, and a console modified to add harmless functionality? It's not like the indie mod-chip manufacturers are including a little code in their chip that says "Hi Microsoft! I assure you I'm not enabled for cheating. Please let me play with you guys.. :("

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Tokimasa ( 1011677 )
        I'm more into software than hardware, but isn't there some kind of controller that is aware of what hardware is attached to it? All Microsoft needs to do is determine which components were modified. If the person installed a device that can read and copy CDs/DVDs, ban the Xbox. If they just installed a larger HDD and have all of the correct software (which would presumably include something that can check for pirated games), then the system would be installed. All hardware that you put into the Xbox would j

    • Missing the point. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by EvilCabbage ( 589836 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @07:47AM (#19177343) Homepage
      It's their network, why shouldn't they ban people that don't play by their rules?

      I say this as somebody that purchased a 360 less than a week ago, and loaded up the hacked firmware for my drive less than 24 hours ago.

      Am I bummed? Not really. It's a private network, they can do whatever they like with it. Doing anything I want with my hardware sure as shit is my right, but I shouldn't expect other people to be forced to allow me to play on their servers like it's some base human right being violated.
    • If they could verify that it didn't affect game play then they probably would ban you. But there is no way to tell why you have modded it, and what differences it will cause in your game play, so they just choose to ban everyone who mods their system. I really don't have a problem with this. If you are going to mod your system, the only reason I can think of is to run pirated/hacked games. There's other reasons like running Media Centres off them and stuff like that, but it's much easier to do that with

    • Re:When you buy hardware, you buy the hardware. (Score:5, Informative)

      by T0wner ( 552792 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @08:01AM (#19177471)

      Now, if you do something that is enabling you to cheat in the game (and breaking the software license), then I don't see why Microsoft shouldn't ban you and the console.

      The firmware hack did not allow you to do this. Since all code on the Xbox 360 (and PS3 for that matter), is signed and run through a hypervisor, for you to run a backup it needs to be identical to the original. Altering any of the code for wall hacks in Hallo 3 for example will change the result of the signing algorithm and the 360 will refuse to run it. The hypervisor was briefly compromised a while ago on the 360 but quickly patched (6 days I believe, so quicker than the file copying bug in vista). Using back ports of the previously hacked Xbox motherboard firmware it is possible to get a few things running such as preliminary XBMC and emulators (I'm not 100% on this maybe someone can confirm). However it is still not possible to run unsigned games.

      Incidentally the method Microsoft used to detect the hack this time is very interesting. It was believed that the DVD drive firmware hack was un-detectable as well as un-patchable since Microsoft had no way of remotely upgrading or checking the firmware. A few weeks ago it was theorized that Microsoft could possibly pick up the difference in DVD read jitter between DVD-R media versus printed originals. You can kinda make out jitter by listening to the extra work a DVD drive does when reading a DVD-R compared to a printed DVD. Anyway a firmware patch was released for this purpose. It appears to not have worked however since reports are coming in that people are getting banned even with this latest patch. Currently its being theorized that possibly Microsoft are checking the read speed difference, between DVD-R and pressed DVD's. Data rates tend to drop slightly to my knowledge when reading DVD-R's, so this could be detected from the main 360 software. Others are speculating that Microsoft have just been data mining for the past few months and have just banned those they have picked up until the jitter patch was released.

      Finally it is also interesting that Microsoft have only banned the detected Xbox console and not the Live account. They clearly want the hackers to spend more money buying more hardware off them. An interesting way of getting some lost revenue back.

      • Finally it is also interesting that Microsoft have only banned the detected Xbox console and not the Live account. They clearly want the hackers to spend more money buying more hardware off them. An interesting way of getting some lost revenue back.

        Is M$ still selling these at a loss, or barely past the break-even point? If so, how are they getting money back by making you go buy another?

        • Is M$ still selling these at a loss, or barely past the break-even point? If so, how are they getting money back by making you go buy another?
          If you go to buy another console that means you are doing it to play on live, which means that you are going to be buying games to play on Live. If you don't care about playing on Live you'll probably just keep using your modded xbox and won't be buying a new one unless the current one breaks.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Opportunist ( 166417 )
        If that's true, I predict interesting complaints from legitimate users when the lenses start to pick up some dirt and decrease their read speed due to the necessary error correction and rereads.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by malevolentjelly ( 1057140 )
        The point is that we, in software development studios, pay a lot of money to get the rights to develop on a console- we spend ~$10,000 a devkit- and Microsoft gets a certain percent of the profit from games. It's what pays for the system. It's about piracy-

        Everyone gets screwed when you steal a game. Let me give you a real world example:

        First off, it's not just suits that you're stealing from- everyone in the company, from the programmers to the testers get bonuses- and that's based on the amount of time th

    • Re:When you buy hardware, you buy the hardware. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @08:06AM (#19177517)
      "What I'm saying is that unlike software (including music), you don't buy a license to use/listen to it."

      No, with Live that's exactly what you do.

      "You buy the physical hardware and you can do whatever you want to it."

      Knock yourself out, but purchasing the hardware doesn't automatically give you the right to access Microsoft's network facilities on your terms rather than theirs.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by binkzz ( 779594 )
        I don't think you actually read the article you replied to.

        He was clearly talking about a license to use the XBOX 360 hardware, not Live.
    • Their stopping software piracy, piracy is illegal and actually a bad thing in many cases. I'm with people who want to revolt over Digital Restriction Management and the insane prices of Movies and CD's, while I don't pirate myself I can fully understand and agree with people who pirate DVD's and CD's.
      Software piracy is a mixed bag, things like MS Office are insanely overpriced (in my opinion getting outlook, word and excel should not cost £270) while the gaming market has the huge development budgets

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by stwrtpj ( 518864 )
      What I'm saying is that unlike software (including music), you don't buy a license to use/listen to it. You buy the physical hardware and you can do whatever you want to it.

      Yes, but nothing obligates Microsoft to support any use of the console that falls outside the intended use of the product. Just like if you buy a microwave oven from GE and hack its internals to play MP3s, then you go buy a later model and find you can't do this anymore, GE is under no obligation to respond to your complaints that you

  • Fair play (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Aneurysm ( 680045 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @07:38AM (#19177277)
    I don't see an problem with Microsoft banning people with DVD drives modified to play copied games. It makes it fair for the honest people who payed good money to play. If people with unmodified boxes start getting banned by mistake, then that would be something to worry about.

    There's nothing wrong with anti-piracy measures so long as they're unobtrusive and don't effect people with legitimate copies.

    • Re:Fair play (Score:5, Funny)

      by gEvil (beta) ( 945888 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @07:53AM (#19177403)
      If people with unmodified boxes start getting banned by mistake, then that would be something to worry about.

      Don't worry. They used Windows Genuine Advantage as the trial run for this...

    • Re:Fair play (Score:4, Informative)

      by MooseMuffin ( 799896 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @07:54AM (#19177415)
      Exactly. And this was their policy on the original xbox as well so I don't see why this would be a surprise to anyone. One of the strengths of xbox live is that you know the playing field is even. Its a closed network with no way a person can cheat via hacks or mods. They can't determine the nature of your change. Maybe it was something harmless, but maybe it allows you to see through walls in halo, or you're using your own drive with your own code that you can trick the xbox into executing. You can do what you want to your console in your living room, but they won't let you get it onto their sterilized network where your changes can impact other. Seems reasonable to me.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Bert64 ( 520050 )
        And what's to stop you using a transparent proxy to modify the network traffic between your xbox and the server?

    • There's nothing wrong with anti-piracy measures so long as they're unobtrusive and don't effect people with legitimate copies.


      Phew, I was worried for a moment! But it's okay now, Microsoft has everything under control... wait.

    • Fair? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Graftweed ( 742763 )

      I don't see an problem with Microsoft banning people with DVD drives modified to play copied games. It makes it fair for the honest people who payed good money to play.

      I'm an honest person who has paid good money to play, I resent the implication that just because I make backup copies for personal use I'm a criminal and end up being locked out of a subset of the console's functionality.

      "We have stated in the past that customers can only enjoy access to the Xbox LIVE community through the use of a genuine, unmodified, Xbox console and we will continue to enforce this rule to ensure the integrity of our service, the protection of our partners and the benefits of our users."

      I fail to see how a modification of a DVD drive will somehow make it less fair on the rest of the people who use an online service.

      By the way, I don't even own an Xbox360, so I'm not whining Microsoft locked me out after having accepted their terms. However, I do consider that the abil

    • Now, if they'd only ban the 12-year-old retards with their 8-word vocabulary... two of which are variants of "fag".

      Yes, I know there's a way to mute them/rate them poorly.. but that never stops the constant influx of _new_ morons... It's as if the world has an infinite supply of people who feel invincible behind a TV screen.

  • "Mod" me up +1 not banned from Live (Score:5, Insightful)

    by __aawkdb2598 ( 1074448 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @07:38AM (#19177281)
    In an ideal world people would be able to mod their DVD players to their heart's content without having to worry about things like this.
    Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world. As a Live player who frequently encounters modders who use their modifications to gain unfair (read ridiculous) advantage over the competition. It's no fun to play the game and service you're paying for when you have opponents with auto-aiming snipers that shoot through walls. Or even if they can just fly (a far more rare and less threatening occurrence that is nonetheless not an exaggeration. As long as stuff like that exists banning modded 360's from live is a good way to protect the greatest part of your paying customer base from such behavior.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by cWolfe ( 1098125 )
      But they cant use auto-aiming sniper that shoot through walls because unsigned code wont run on the 360

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by ad0gg ( 594412 )
        They could modifiy the textures which aren't signed to say be transparent(wall hacks).

  • Coming Soon... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by spoonboy42 ( 146048 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @07:53AM (#19177401)
    We'll probably just see the same thing that we did with the first XBox: a modchip with an external switch connected that can tell it to disable itself and let the original drive firmware load. Of course, setting it up probably won't be as easy as it was in the XBox 1 (which had a nice little LPC port that you could get the system to load a different BIOS from by just shorting one solder point to ground)... it may be necessary to actually remove the firmware ROM chips from the drive and wire in a new switched bank with copies of both the original and the modified firmware, but it certainly seems doable.

    Another issue that slightly complicates things is the fact that the 360 signs you in to XBox live by default when you have an active network connection, so modders will have to be careful to unplug their ethernet cables when the switch is turned on. One vulnerability remains, though, and that is that Microsoft may choose to push out a dashboard update which checks for the drive's original firmware on EVERY bootup, and remembers to tattle to XBox live as soon as you sign on. Microsoft could choose to store this data on the hard drive/memory card (in which case it could be defeated by having a pair of storage devices, one for modded and unmodded use), or they could put it in the 360's internal flash storage, where the dashboard and system software itself is stored (no easy solution for that one, but I don't know enough about the 360's internals to know if the internal storage is flash RAM, which makes this easy, or an EEPROM, which would seem to require that the dashboard reflash itself with the new variable set every time that happens).

    Anyway, it does seem that it is possible to defeat this scheme. I'd also like to note that Microsoft's stated reason for the update is bullshit, since even with the drive's firmware flashed, the 360 will still only load Microsoft-signed executables (meaning that it can play backups of original games, but is useless for homebrew and modified games). They might as well just come out and say that it's a measure to defeat privacy, since they've locked out homebrew programs anyway (with the exception of their XNA creator's club program, which lets you run only games written for their limited API, and only in C#, instead of giving access to the full-on devkit that the pros use). Couching it in pro-gamer language about defeating cheaters is disingenuous.

    • Re:Coming Soon... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jZnat ( 793348 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @08:50AM (#19178013) Homepage Journal
      Like I did with the original Xbox, I believe it would just be a lot easier to own two of them, mod one, and use the other for Xbox Live. Of course, this only becomes more feasible when the console drops in price (or you buy a used one on eBay or similar to mod of course), but in my experience, is the path of least resistance.
      • Don't worry.... MS has already thought of this for you. Now you have a reason to go out and purchase an XBox Elite and leave it unmodified, whereas before this, you merely may have been angry over a newer higher-priced model becoming available. :)

        Seriously though, whats to stop MS from banning XBox customers who upgrade their hard-drive on their own, instead of shilling out for the ludicrously expensive branded upgrade?

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      We'll probably just see the same thing that we did with the first XBox: a modchip with an external switch connected that can tell it to disable itself and let the original drive firmware load.

      There is already a modchip that will do that on its own. you can find it here http://www.modchip.com/xbox360/nme360v13order.php [modchip.com] It's called the NME 360 v1.3

      This is the description they give for it "The NME 360 v1.3 is a universal chip for all Xbox360 DVD drives. It will patch the firmware of the drive on-the-fly. The original firmware on the flash of the drive remains untouched.
      The chip will recognize independently which media was inserted and switches itself to the corresponding mode. That also means you

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by goatpunch ( 668594 )

      Another issue that slightly complicates things is the fact that the 360 signs you in to XBox live by default when you have an active network connection
      It complicates the issue for about 5 seconds until you disable auto sign-in.

  • This is a good thing (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Alexpkeaton1010 ( 1101915 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @08:14AM (#19177609)
    The only reason I pay my Xbox Live subscription is to play on a clean network with no cheating. Granted, I have seen cheating, but it is very rare compared to say... any PC game. And it is usually quickly fixed. Like the vast majority of people, I bought my Xbox 360 to play games, I did not buy it to mod it. The *most important* thing in any competitive game or sport is fairness; skill, talent, and practice should be the only deciding factors in the outcome. If you want to mod yours, fine, but I don't want to see you on Xbox Live, which is a *private* network. The reason why there is such little cheating on Xbox Live is that it is detected at the hardware level, *not* on a per game basis like in PC Games. This is why I pay, and this is why I prefer to play FPSs on Xbox Live. Sure, I would rather play with a mouse and keyboard, but fair competition is the most important thing in online play.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by yoprst ( 944706 )
      My experience with Call of Duty that the ratio of people perceived as cheaters to actual cheaters is somewhere around 1000 to 1. Could this also be true with other games?

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by fimbulvetr ( 598306 )
        Take a moment to check out cod2 hacks on youtube. The hacks are so ubiquitous, you'd have to be a fool to _not_ use them.

        p.s. I don't play cod2 for that very reason.

      • Re:This is a good thing (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @10:06AM (#19179077)
        It is.

        When you spend some time in FPS games, you sooner or later get accused of cheating. Happens even to me from time to time. Personally, I shrug it off as some sign of respect, i.e. that I have to be kinda good to make people think I cheat. Sadly, the truth is probably closer to them being completely inapt. But having my delusions help me think I don't suck as badly as I do.

        A prime example would be BF2142 and its myriad ways of detecting enemy presence. Aside of a commander ability that shows all enemies on a mini-map, you can, provided you have the necessary goodies unlocked, do it yourself to some limited extent.

        When now someone runs past you, cloaked, and you start shooting him, rest assured that sooner or later a claim of cheating will follow. Ignoring that the "class" you play gets a bonus at detecting cloaked enemies, that you see him as a huge red dot on the mini-map and that you can hear his cloaking device give off a quite annoying whine. Follow your ears and that predator-like blur and you got him in no time.

        In other words, any moron with half a clue would've seen him. Still, you can be certain, after you got him a few times (using every time exactly the same approach and you killing him every time exactly at the same spot, which is THE best known "sneak past the enemy" spot on the map to boot), you'll hear laments of cheating.

        99% of the false cheating accusations can be traced back to a few reasons:
        First, the other player knows the map VERY well and knows what approaches you can come from and where you can't come from. If there's only ONE corridor you can take, he won't bother checking the others.
        Second, some games have "radar". Allowed radar, not cheated. Especially the more sci-fi oriented FPSs do. If you ignore it, your loss. Others use it to efficiency.
        Third, experience. After playing a few 100 hours, you CAN actually do a headshot with a snapshot. Doesn't work all the time, but I know usually just where I have to direct my facing before switching to the sniper scope to have your head right where it should be. And yes, there are people who can sync-switch weapons, giving you a 99% health taking bullet to the body and switch over to sidearms. There are people who know exactly how long your gun reloads and who count your shots.
        Fourth, teamwork. Even without any "real" verbal communication, a lot of games implement now ways to tell your team buddies where the baddies are. No, he didn't see you sneak up. But one of his buddies did and warned him in time to switch from sniper rifle to sidearm, twist around and cap you before you could knife him.

        And so on. The list is far from complete, but accusations of cheating in modern games are usually false. Unless people blatantly abuse bugs in the game (like, sinking inside walls so they can't be shot or similar stuff), or blatant use of aimbots, you won't be able to see the difference of a really good gamer and a cheater.

  • So what are the benefits of modding? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by blindd0t ( 855876 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @08:23AM (#19177699)

    First off, everybody should have seen this coming - they did this with the first XBox console.

    Second, what are the benefits (outside of copying games illegitimately and cheating) would you have by modding your XBox 360? I haven't had any incentive to purchase the 360 because outside of better graphics and new games, my old, mod'd XBox can provide me all the same functionality. At least with the first gen XBox, modding gave you DVD playback (without the need to purchase the stupid dongle), music and movie file playback (i.e. off a file server on the network), potential to install a full Linux distro like Xebian (and the potential to use it as a MythTV front-end), etc... I'm honestly curious to know how I could maximize my bang-for-my-buck by modding an XBox 360 - how else might I be able to use that hardware, similar to the old XBox?

    Additionally, no matter how much they try, there will always be people bent on cheating in live. Playing Halo 2 over my friend's Live account a few times was a crumby experience for me with the abundance of cheaters out there (and no, I'm not saying that b/c I'm a sore looser, but there comes a point in time that it is horribly obvious somebody is cheating), but I'm not so optimistic this will help much. Honestly, I have never purchased a live account, and I don't ever intend to purchase one (which is part of why I won't purchase a 360 - for that and other reasons).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jZnat ( 793348 )
      Well, the Xbox definitely isn't powerful enough to play 1080p60 H.264 video, for example, but the Xbox 360 should be able to. Therefore, porting XBMC [xboxmediacenter.com] to the 360 would help make a superb HD HTPC (minus recording from TV of course, but that could be dealt with via USB-based TV tuners or similar).

      Also, the Elite model has a much larger hard drive, so it requires less tinkering to get a decent amount of space on it for all your music, TV shows, films, etc.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by melstav ( 174456 )

      Second, what are the benefits (outside of copying games illegitimately and cheating) would you have by modding your XBox 360?

      Specifically, we're talking about modding *the DVD drive*.

      One reason to install hacked firmware on the drive not at all related to game play is to be able to use it as a region-free DVD player. IE: allow you to watch a DVD regardless of which country it was marketed for.

      Conceivably, once someone successfully manages to port it, it will be possible to run Linux on your 360, as well...

    • Benefits...

      Well.
      I would do whatever it takes to get the chat function in Xbox Live to work with more than two persons. The official word is that they have limited the chat to two persons because fear of overused bandwidth (they need at least 64kbps for games). That is what I hate with MS/closed source. People who know what is best for you.
      If a mod chip would let me use some other chat program or remove this immensly stupid artificial restriction I would buy it in a second.

      As for the old Xbox.
      With a mod chip

  • The Sky is Falling (Score:3, Funny)

    by Higaran ( 835598 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @08:40AM (#19177887)
    Wow, this actually looks like a PRO MS thread on /. and the other day I could swear that the last one about the Iphone was kind of negative to apple. *Does Not Compute* *Head Explodes*
  • I have a 360, havent flashed it because im rather picky about my games, I do have a friend who flashed his and now we cant play anymore. He is in Florida and im in Missouri but Live is the best way we have found to stay in touch.

    They may have lost sales of a game or two from him but they are now going to loose his annual live subscription and the ton of xbox points he goes through. He is the one who talked me into buying my first live arcade game (Settlers of Catan) and he seems to buy every game they put out. I talked to him this morning and he is now talking PS3, I cant help but wonder how many thousands of live users will now do the same? I dont have a problem with fighting piracy but MS may be cutting off it's nose to spite it's face.

  • Modder Server (Score:5, Interesting)

    by LoudMusic ( 199347 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @10:22AM (#19179377)
    Instead of outright banning them why don't they send them to their own server? That way they can still keep track of who they are and perhaps not clue the modders in to the fact that MS knows that they've modded their box. MS could even run some well written bots to populate the server and totally kick the modders' asses. It could be a fun side project for the game developers (:

  • Their network, their rules (Score:3, Insightful)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Friday May 18, 2007 @11:44AM (#19180643) Homepage Journal
    Its their network, they can make any rule they want for you to connect. Not much to see here.

    Now, if they start remotely disabling the console that you bought and paid for, then we have some news.

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