What Kids Really Think About Kids' Games 79
marcellizot writes "For a hobby that's supposedly childish, real child gamers have quite a hard time of it. When they're not having every avenue of fun scrutinized for nasties and bad influences, they're often being sold game ideas that are boring and old even when the adults of today were young. Pocket Gamer asks, what do kids really make of today's kids games? 'Both Polly and Andrew both agreed that there were more good games for kids than bad overall, but most of the games they showed weren't just for kids at all. This betrays the difference in perception between parents and their children. Most of them aren't looking for the same old killing - instead, they want something that genuinely entertains them.'"
No Way. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah, the story is actually... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah, that much is obvious to everyone.
The story is actually that what grown ups think as a fun kid game, isn't actually fun for kids. The story isn't kids dislike boring game. The story is, basically, "yeah, but some grown ups thought that those boring games would be the apex of entertainment for junior." If you will, the story is about the disconnect between (A) what kids really _are_ like, and (B) how their parents imagine them.
Imagine, if you will, being 10 years old and basically someone coming over and telling you, "I just painted the fence. Wanna come watch the paint dry? I bet it'll be hours of fun for someone your age." Worse yet, they actually believe that.
The problem is, almost everyone grows up and proceeds to forget that they were children too, and what it really was like. They flip to some imaginary world where kids are stupid simpletons. Which just isn't true.
Yes, especially in the 3-4 years of life the kid doesn't even have all neurons yet, and later doesn't have all the data yet. Yes, they're still wired until puberty to follow mommy around and learn by playing. But they're not brain-dead. (And not half as blissfully care-free as most adults think, either, btw.) And learning by playing is slightly more complex than just being entertained by _any_ simplistic stuff.
Playing with dolls is pretty much enacting "what if" scenarios with those props. They're not the most intricate scenarios, but they do involve some neurons firing. They involve some creativity, at the very least. (You have to think up the script in real time.) They also exercise the memory (what did I see mommy/Buggs Bunny/whatever doing in that situation?) and some critical thinking (would it really go that way?). It's more like playing chess against yourself for practice, than just being entertained by anything whatsoever that involves dolls.
That's what most people who come up with kid games have forgot. They think that just dropping some cartoon character or franchise doll in a game is all that's needed to make a game fun for kids, and that it has to be stripped of anything that involves any thinking at that.
And then there are the games for little _girls_, which actually go one step further in dumbing it down. Everyone seems to be dead sure that little girls are too stupid to even understand more complex stuff than dressing up Barbie or becoming prom queen in 5 dialogues. Or if not too stupid, surely girls don't have other interests and can't be motivated to follow any other plots, right?
Well, actually, wrong. Even in the countries where they do eventually flip to pretending to be an airhead, it happens at puberty. Girls in elementary school still dream of being a chemist, a teacher, an astronaut, whatever, just like boys do. Only in high school the culture becomes distorted into, basically, "being popular is everything, being smart is outright uncool".
And it does so for both genders, anyway, so no need to single one out as the simpletons. Just as girls flip into trying to be the popular airhead, boys flip into trying to be the popular dumb jock.
At any rate, making a game for a 10 year old girl based on how you perceive 16 year old girls, is just a dud for both. It's missing what the 10 year old is actually interested in (she's still wired as a kid, i.e., to follow mommy and to learn), and it's too dumbed down for the 16 year old. Heck, most are too dumbed down even for the 10 year old.
Briefly: people would do well to actually ask the kids if they find a game fun, instead of basing the whole design and testing on adults and their mis-conceptions about kids.
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In other words, if little girls like animals, so be it, make an interesting game with animals then. But the keyword should still be: interesting.
Just so it doesn't look like pure railing against it, here's my constructive 2c for the day: a goo
hey! (Score:2)
What'ya mean? Oblivion was a *great* game, and not dumbed down at all!
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You know, after the awards show at GDC even the Bethesda guys I saw/spoke with didn't seem to think Oblivion was so great...
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And then there are the games for little _girls_, which actually go one step further in dumbing it down. Everyone seems to be dead sure that little girls are too stupid to even understand more complex stuff than dressing up Barbie or becoming prom queen in 5 dialogues. Or if not too stupid, surely girls don't have other interests and can't be motivated to follow any other plots, right?
have you ever played any of the Barbie games on the computer? My 4 year old loves Barbie Rapunzel and it's a bit more than d
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I'm guessing no, she won't.
The problem isn't that there aren't games for kids, it's that once they hit ~8-10 (to say nothing of 11-12) years old, there just aren't that many games that are age-appropriate in terms of content AND complexity for them. Reminds me of when I was 10 and getting chased out of the bookstore in the mall because I was trying to browse the sci-fi section which the clerk said was "for adults onl
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This is a bit of an oversimplification. Kid's games also suffer from smaller budgets and crunched development periods. But overall, th
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In many cases, kids have peers (and peer-pressure) and see dad play all this 'other cool stuff'; and they will nag your head of to get a similar game, even if it's not really suited for th
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In a way, you illustrate just what I was talking about: kids often (maybe even most often) like non-kid games more than they like the kid games. GTA wasn't designed to be a kid game, it was just designed to be fun, and the result is that it ends up fun for kids too.
Now whether they should play violent games in the first place or not, that's a talk I won't get into this time. M
Looney Tunes vs. Today's Cartoons (Score:2)
If you will, the story is about the disconnect between (A) what kids really _are_ like, and (B) how their parents imagine them.
I agree with you, and your point is demonstrated by a comparison of the old cartoons such as Looney Tunes against today's "kids" cartoons. Originally, Looney Tunes were made strictly for adults, not intended to be seen by children, much less understood by them. But kids have gravitated towards them, either because they appreciate it on a much lower level than adults, or because of their inherent desire to emulate adulthood. Much like the disdain for the "kids' table" at Thanksgiving, kids yearn for adult a
Nethack..... (Score:5, Funny)
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10 1020 Teddy-Sam-Hum-Mal-Law died in The Gnomish Mines on
level 8. Killed by a hallucinogen-distorted
Green-elf.
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Re:Nethack..... (Score:5, Funny)
-matthew
Re:Ultima Education (Score:1)
If you want to make a kid's game educational, treat it as any other type of media. It needs to have an edgy storyline, identifiable characters, and some type of fun factor involved. The storyline however, is essential because this is where you pepper your educational, intellectual and moral factors. Notice I say pepper, and not dump.
For example, everything I learned about morality and principles I learned from Ultima IV. That's a slight exaggeration, but there's truth to it.
It might sound silly, but
The Problem (Score:4, Insightful)
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Another problem is almost all game reviews are authored by 20-something males. I have found they have great difficulty reviewing games intended for young kids o
News!? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Kids like to play the same games adults do" and "Not all games are about violence and beating hookers" is not news. Any real gamer (aka not some FPS kiddy who thinks Nintendo is for kids) can tell you that violence doesn't make a game fun. It can be part of a fun game, but senseless violence without a good system behind it will suck for all age groups.
I doubt there are many people who would argue that Tetris is one of those all time greats that everyone has played at some point. Yet the most violent thing in Tetris is a line of bricks (blocks, tertites or whatever you call them) disappearing.
So why the hell are we acting like games can only be fun if they are rated 15/18 (or whatever Americans use as their adult oriented entertainment label).
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Otherwise racing games were up until death rally and carmageddon a pretty much guaranteed safe game for parents to give their kids to play. These days not so much, but there are plenty of ways of doing an educationa
Re:News!? (Score:4, Informative)
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I never actually played the game, that's just what I thought I remembered based on the ads. The most recent console to come out that I own is still my SNES.
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The game may have been "M", but it was anything BUT "mature".
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Lemonade Stand taught me the meaning of 16bit-integers, and that if you're too successful in business, you'll end up making negative amounts of money, and crash the world.
Nephews (Score:2, Informative)
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That looks like the same basic game as the Pajama Sam series. These are the best kids games I've ever found. It teaches them to use the mouse, how to save/load a game (or file), and a young kid can actually play the game themselves. Every other brand of game I've bought for a young child has been buggy to the point uselessness, but these games are really good. My son could play through a Pajama Sam game on his own when he was 2 or 3 years old.
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http://www.noggin.com/ [noggin.com]
http://www.nickjr.com/ [nickjr.com]
http://pbskids.org/ [pbskids.org]
I have an Xbox and wish there were more kids games for it. I will be buying a Wii next.
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Re:Nephews-no one pirates old or inexpensive stuff (Score:2)
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Developer Perspective (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd prefer to make really simple, but quality titles that have solid stories and are morally enriching for the audience. i.e. the kind of entertainment that I remember being provided as a kid by public broadcasting, Fred Rogers, Shel Silverstein etc.
The problem I'm having is that the level of commercialism in today's kids entertainment is just as bad, if not worse, than most mainstream software. Usually involving other products so the parent company can tie in other potential sales to it (Barbie, et al). Just the kinds of things kids should absolutely not be faced with at young ages.
The only solution I can foresee is either finding funding from an independant source who shares my personal goals, or hoping somewhere along the way the genre manages to break the stigmas associated with "kids" and "educational" entertainment softwa Kids games are seen by publishers as "simpler", and therefore thought to be quicker to develop, receive lower budgets, and are treated as discardable products. Educational titles often have difficulty pushing away from boring gameplay. (I still think Oregon Trail is one of the only "educational" pieces of software that ever provided any sense of reward or fun for the audience - and it's over 30 years old! that's the timeline of the industry!)
I guess I typed up this rant hoping someone could point out a good childrens game developer that actually cared about it's audience, and treated their product in a responsible and respectful way. Any ideas?
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The buggers get pretty good at it, too. I once
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Re:Developer Perspective (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Developer Perspective (Score:5, Informative)
I'm a dad of a 6 year old girl, and I have to tell you- I'm surprised.
These [amazon.com] Barbie [amazon.co.uk] movies [amazon.com] are intensely moral, and advocate for girls to develop an interest in science, delight in learning, sacrifice, strive, and struggle courageously for what is right and true. By my read, it's all straight out of Aristotle. [adelaide.edu.au] Check out the Amazon reviews, especially this one, if you're a guy. [amazon.com]
I don't know what bizarre turn of fate made it such that great talent should go to work on Barbie movies, but I can't deny what I've clearly seen: They're good movies, with positive message, and I now have absolutely no qualms buying Barbie toys for my daughter.
I recognize this is an odd bit of news to hear, but there it is; I can't deny what my own two eyes have seen.
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He-Man? Thundercats?
With the terrible moralistic crud at the end of every episode?
If kids think they're being lectured at, they'll turn off. (their ears, not the TV)
Are these Barbie films transparent enough for your kids to see through them?
Re:Developer Perspective (Score:5, Interesting)
No; The Barbie movies don't work like that. The moral messages are integrated into the movie themselves. Like most any movie that adults watch.
There's a lot of role modeling: Princess Anneliese loves to study science, but she never says anything like, "You should study science!" Rather, it's just her favorite thing to do, and it's mostly background. Of the 12 dancing princesses, there's a daughter who loves to collect bugs, a daughter who loves to read all the time, a pair that love to do oddball things, and so on. This is not to the exclusion of traditional female role models -- singing, sewing, and so on. But it's all woven together, they're all co-present. What is not present in any of the modeling, is a lack of courage, or inability to take action. Taking initiative, putting yourself out there, not just emotionally but physically as well, striving, exertion, it's all there. These are role models for pro-active kids.
There's also a lot of explaining. In Princess and the Pauper, you'll see how class works; One of the main characters is an indentured servant, and she explains how that "works," and what it means. I don't remember seeing anything half as complicated in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles stories that I love(d) as a kid.
As for "moral," (as opposed to cultural,) there's a lot of struggle, sacrifice, and duty. Commitment to duty is very high in all of these stories, as well as sacrifice, though the story makes it clear that the characters have other things they'd think would be more fun or pleasurable. Ultimately, though, these characters realize that there's something more important to them, that they want, and they do what it takes to get there, even though it doesn't benefit them personally.
From a philosophical analytical perspective, these are "Virtue Ethic" stories, rather then, say, studies of intentions, argument from consequences, or absolute moral rules. These stories advocate (by demonstration of internal debates, and then choices made, rather than lecture,) for the cultivation of virtues (honesty, courage, fairness, pride, intelligence,) and living a full life, [wikipedia.org] with beauty, pleasure, and fun. So I classify this as "Nichomachean." [wikipedia.org] I'm only a lay philosopher, but this is what I see, and this is how I call it.
They're actually good, and, you might get a kick out of watching them. (Serious.) I've lent one of the movies to a couple who doesn't (well, didn't) have kids, and they returned it with the note, "Surprisingly good!" (None of my other friends will watch though. No surprises there..!)
My spirits are lifted after seeing them, and that's enough for me.
Quite.
But the kids do not turn off. Rather, they enact the scenes and the struggles and the arguments in the movies. It's quite clear to me that these movies are effective, and that that is good.
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We're all Foglio fans here.
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If you buy it, they will play it (Score:2)
Seriously, anyone in any age group doesn't want a 'game' thats 'not fun'. The lower the age group, the lower the tolerance.
LucasArts Adventure Games (Score:4, Interesting)
Sure, most kids won't like the graphics since they are used to modern game engines, but if these games could be redone with someone modern graphics while retaining the same fun factor I'm sure many kids would love it.
Yes, they have MI4 with 3D engine, but I still liked the way they did MI3 better. Grim Fandango was fantastic, and the Dig was good too. Too bad many kids nowadays prefer brainless shoot-kill games.
Sam'n'Max in da' house. (Score:2, Informative)
Don't know where you've been hiding, but Sam & Max are back! [telltalegames.com]
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I should think not!
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Of course I'd love to see LucasArts do something sensible like release legit DS ports of Monkey Island 1 & 2, Day of the Tentacle,
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I don't see it being a major project, and then you could shove the carts out with 2 games on them for $30/ea.
It may not sell as many titles as Pokemon, but it should certainly net a profit larger than $0.
What kids really think about '80s games (Score:5, Interesting)
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I'm sure similar tauntings happend when the NES/Sega Master System, SNES/Genesis, etc. came out too.
My friend remarked how horribly dated the graphics of FF7 looked, until I reminded her that the game is older than her daughter.
Trivial Games (Score:2)
Kids have quite a bit more brains than a lot of people seem to think. For example, the 1985 Mac-game "ChipWits" was for rated for "Kids from 12 years and up".
Well, I wrote a (free) Windoze-Version of ChipWits, and know two seven-year old kids who really like it (it teaches them how to program using a funny bot and a bunch of command icons).
Thus: don't make these games too darn simplistic.
Where's The Learning Company when you need them? (Score:2)
We need more kids games like Rocky's Boots [abandonia.com] and Robot Odyssey! [abandonia.com]