Xbox DRM and the Red Ring of Death 147
manekineko2 writes "In the latest case warning of the perils of investing in DRM'd media, an owner of an Xbox 360 reports that after his Xbox suffered the infamous Red Ring of Death, it was replaced by a new system with a different serial number. Upon receiving his replacement, he found that he could only access the media he had purchased from a specific account. He also received the run-around for months from customer service before his case was escalated, only to be informed that there is no ETA for a resolution, there is no way to receive status updates on the process, and there is no compensation that will be granted. Given claims that the Xbox 360 defect rate is as high as 1 in 3, has anyone on Slashdot gone through this as well after getting their system exchanged?" Update: 02/14 17:11 GMT by Z : An emailing user noted that the original summary was not very accurate; rephrased to be more in-line with the situation.
Ummm (Score:5, Informative)
After that they'll run fine not logged in on the 360, or on other 360s logged in with the original account.
Its a pain in the ass -- I've had to do it twice, but its not nearly how the story makes it sound.
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Also, aren't you supposed to be able to play any media as long as one of these two criteria are met:
1) Original console it was purchased on.
2) Logged into the account that purchased the item.
That's what I've always been told had to happen, but this article shows that is not the case.
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hardware key, trumping Live authentication. But if Live is down, you're fucked
if all you have is the original account. I know. I upgraded to an Elite.
Absolutely no extra content with a price tag works, and none of the non-free
XBLA games play anything but trial mode until I log on to Live.
What's worse is that your downloaded content for games now becomes unavailable
to all the other accounts on the same box. The mere presence of the
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You call them. They give you the points you've spent on a temporary XBox Live account, you redownload the software.
After that they'll run fine not logged in on the 360, or on other 360s logged in with the original account.
Its a pain in the ass -- I've had to do it twice, but its not nearly how the story makes it sound.
Why didn't they do that in this case? From my experience some agents will break rules to help others are strict policy followers that cause PR problems.
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I don't have a 360 myself, so I'm not familiar with how the XBox Live system works, but I can't imagine why the support techs can't simply re-activate this gentleman's games. I've never run across an online marketplace that doesn't include some provision for restoring
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Absolutely true! (Score:5, Informative)
I received a replacement console after the red rings of death. I immediately called support regarding my content that no longer worked (without being logged in), went through a bunch of steps to confirm I couldn't get it to work (which was ridiculous - they MUST know that it wasn't going to work) and was then told I would be called back within a few days.
They never called, so I called them back. The same routine happened for about a month, with me calling back once a week. I had to start berating the support personnel and their powerless "supervisors" as they all continued to respond "be assured we are working on this and will have it resolved as soon as possible". No - you are NOT working on it - please stop the lies.
I finally talked to one support person that said "oh yeah, I don't know what those other guys were thinking, they logged your case completely wrong, I'll get this taken care of immediately, you shouldnt have had to wait this long. I schedule a call back with you on Monday to confirm". He went so far as to set up a specific 3 hour time period when I would receive the call back. Which of course never happened.
After going through these weekly calls of yelling at their useless "support" for a few months, I wrote to Major Nelson pleading my case (I don't know him personally, it was a desperation attempt). He sent my case number to someone in "escalations" who actually DID call me back. I thought I was finally getting somewhere. Within a week I got a call from someone in engineering confirming my console ID and serial number. Things looked promising.
That was 2 months ago.
My content has STILL not been unlocked.
And no, nobody was willing to give me points to re-buy the content. If they used to do that, they sure don't anymore.
I WAS a fanboy. The 360 and XBox Live were a great product. However, this is the absolute WORST customer experience I have ever had with any company, hands down. Because of their complete incompetence and unwillingness to resolve my issue, they have destroyed their image, and made me want to tell everyone I know about how bad their support is. Please spread the word.
Re:Absolutely true! (Score:4, Informative)
M$ has attempted to force the OEM OS being tied to the hardware, so that if the hardware fails you have to re-buy the OS. Where they had complete control over the hardware, seriously did you really expect them to behave any differently. They know it is wrong, they know they are stealing your content rights, they know there will be bad consumer reaction to this, which is why they obfuscate, lie and misdirect their responses. As far as they are concerned, the software is a part of the hardware and subject to the same beyond warranty failure rate and requirements of repurchase. You might have thought you were buying that content but make no mistake as far as they were concerned you only rented it and it was only ever going to last until the next version of xbox was released, at which time you be forced to renew the rent.
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MS isn't fighting Sony tooth and nail just to do better, they are trying to dominate and monopolize the entire industry, and when they do, they will have far more draconian rules for getting as much money as possible out of me.
I don't want to see MS buy core IPs to the point where they can control who can complete with them, but MS is clearly trying to do this. I don't want to see subscriptions for everything and zero actual ownership, but that'
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Ironically e
You're wrong, iTunes lets you redownload music (Score:2)
Let me introduce you to iTunes Music Store. An otherwise great service with no way to redownload previous purchases, if say for example your macbook crashes.
This is blatantly false. E-Mail Apple and they will let you re-download your songs. [apple.com]
Not to mention that you can backup your iTunes music (in fact, iTunes has a built-in backup function). Can't do that with Xbox games.
Even better than that (Score:3, Insightful)
To my understanding, the points they give you are equal to what you spent, but not earmarked. That is, you get an equivalent value of content, but if you no longer like what you purchased you can get other media in exchange.
Which seems like a reasonable perk to extend to people who have to go through that rigormorale.
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Re:Ummm (Score:5, Informative)
They didn't do that for us. When we got our 360 back from repairs and the content wouldn't play on the other accounts, I called and was told that the purchased content was meant for the account that purchased it and not the others, and the fact that it worked to start doesn't mean that it will always work that way into the future. I was mostly peeved because I was trying to see how many achievements I could unlock in a single round on XBLA games.
I get the feeling that depending on who you happen to talk to at support, you get different stories of how things work. When our 360 originally red-ring'd, we were told that it wouldn't be covered under warranty (we got a Rev-B 360, about a month or two after it was first released), but the unit still worked on and off... it would just occasionally not start up. After MS extended the warranty to a year, we were able to send it in and get it replaced. Although a friend of mine's unit red-ringed a couple days after ours and his got replaced, no questions asked. His also came back in about 8 days, where ours took 3 weeks.
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Re:Ummm, not quite (Score:5, Informative)
It's no longer "policy" by Microsoft to give you MS points to cover the DLC you can't use any more.
Apparently, according to comments on the Consumerist article, they stopped doing that sometime in October or November last year.
I think that's reprehensible.
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Since the greatest amount of failures occurred with the original launch model, I doubt anyone with one of those expected it to be a heaping pile of shit.
Re:Ummm (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not confident that this will ever get done, but luckily I have some recourse. Firstly I do have an Xbox Live Gold account, and from personal experience I know that the reps will bend over backward to keep you on the gold account if you call and cancel. I'm thinking that if needed, I can call to cancel and get them to give me enough freebie points to redownload all my stuff (not that I should have to, mind you).
Barring that, all my MS points were purchased on a debit MasterCard issued by a small community credit union that actually cares about it's clients. All I need to do is sit down and fill out a form saying that I didn't get what I paid for when I bought those points, and 24 hours later the cash is back in my account and MS gets hit with the chargeback. It's ugly, but it might be necessary. Mind you, I won't do this unless I've exhausted all other options and made Microsoft well aware of my intent before actually doing it.
Personally, I think that the games should work as long as the account in question is present on the Xbox they are to be played on. That way if I log in to my friend's Xbox and re-download Geometry Wars, he can play it as long as my account is resident on his system. Once I remove the memory card holding my account or recover the account to a different Xbox, the game is rendered unplayable. If MS doesn't want to do that, then how about the option to self-transfer the license a-la the iTunes method of invalidating the license on the old console. Let users do this once every 6 months to a year. That way if someone upgrades from an Arcade to a Pro or Elite or whatever, they can know that their games will work.
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Simple math will tell you this can't be often enough
But a self-relicense method IS required. An automatic extension of the
gold account would be nice, too..
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You're kidding, the 360 doesn't have any way of Self-Relicensing?
How are people on their 2nd (let alone those few on their 5th or 6th) box handling this?
The PS3 came with this "feature" since day 1. Why the heck did MS drop the ball (for so long?) on such a critical part of DLC purc
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You're kidding, the 360 doesn't have any way of Self-Relicensing?
How are people on their 2nd (let alone those few on their 5th or 6th) box handling this?
Whiskey.
The PS3 does all the technical bits perfectly, while the 360 has most of the cool entertainment.
I'd buy a PS3 once they drop just a wee bit more, but there comes a time when I have to stop
buying hardware and get some games to actually play on it..no PS3 yet, then.
I get back at MS, though. They lost money on my Elite upgrade - I paid less than current full
price for my premium. Plus, I prefer to buy pre-owned from a reputable store. MS only gets their
tax once, except on the dirt-cheap arcade games.
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PSN gives you 5 (I can't remember the exact total... at least two... heh) downloads to any box with your account... (I know, I've installed a ne
Moral of the story: (Score:5, Informative)
OR, just keep your silver account. (Score:1)
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Re:OR, just keep your silver account. (Score:5, Informative)
So he didn't lose his content at all. He access it using the original purchasing profile while signed into XBox Live. I do realize that this is not perfect, but it's also far from inaccessible.
Personally, I only use one profile that automatically signs into XBL, so the only time this would affect would be when my internet is out. Granted, that's not how it works for every user, but I would guess that this is how it works for most of them. It could use some fixing, but in the meantime it's usable.
All MS really needs to do is come up with some way to import the console specific settings during the replacement process. They'be been pretty good about releasing updates to the console as well as the games, and if this is a widespread problem I'm sure it will get addressed. Hopefully sooner, rather than later.
The good news though is that maybe this will spur them to create an import process for the next console. Afterall, they'll probably have a torch carrying mob storming Redmond if you can't play the content you downloaded onto your 360 on the next-gen MS console.
Re:OR, just keep your silver account. (Score:5, Informative)
Say you have Rock Band, and you buy a bunch of DLC tracks. If you get 3 friends over, you can play those tracks in a band. Cool.
Then your Xbox dies and you get it replaced. If I'm reading this stuff correctly, then when you try to do the above, it won't work. Because now, only the purchasing profile (yours) has the rights to use the DLC. No more DLC for your band unless your three friends have bought the tracks on their own live accounts. This goes for anything that is multiplayer, including Live Arcade games. You'll only be able to play trial versions if you have friends over.
Obviously, this is not acceptable.
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Unfortunately, I purchased many of the arcade games for my kids, who have their own gamertags. Now they can no longer play the titles.
This is a HUGE problem in my opinion, and I've been screwed over by
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Last time I checked the terms, the general deal was that on the original unit you bought the content, it would be usable by anyone with an account on that unit. Additionally, if you logged in with your Xbox live account on someone else's unit, you would be able to download the content again, but only you would be able to use it on that unit, if someone else logged in instead, the content would be unavailable
I haven't veri
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The problem comes when you are offline, or when one of his other family members are using the original console at home.
In the first case, when not logged in the roaming rights vanish and his content will not play because it is not the original machine.
In the second case, the family members cannot view the content stored on the drive because the content thinks it is not the original purchasers machine s
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It's a bit of a pain but it's not that bad. Whether or not that applies to media (ie. Movies) I don't know, but I guess it doesn't.
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What this ends up meaning is that when you get a new console, for what ever reason, you can only use your previously DL'ed software when you are logged in to XBox live. This is a real pain for people that have multiple GamerTags in their hou
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So if you bought downloadable content from the Microsoft XBox Marketplace before the DRM upgrade, you did actually buy DRM-free content. The DRM was applied on it after-the-fact.
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Sounds like an MS Service Pack to me. Introduce things that people don't want, that add to the complexity of the system, change the way things work, and in general make a less desirable and more trouble-filled experience for the end user.
Thank yo MicroSoft.
Heard about this (Score:2)
I also heard that there -is- a way for them to convert the content over, but that they won't do it for most people. I forget the exact details now, but it involved shipping it to them for them to handle it. Obviously, they don't admit it's possible very often... And I assume that's because they'd have to do it with almost every c
It worked for me... (Score:2)
My bigger problem was getting them to reimburse me for my lost month of Xbox Live and the destroyed non-MS game discs...
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DRM or Microsoft? (Score:2)
Microsfot: "Have DRM, will attempt to screw!"
Summary inaccurate... (Score:3, Informative)
Uh... no... RTFA...
I'm not saying it's not a problem... it is... You get the same situation if you try to upgrade to an Elite or a unit with HDMI as well (and MS doesn't reimburse you points for that) But you're not 100% cut off from your media (You just have to be logged in...all the time... like even during XBox Live downtimes...).
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Xbox 360 and PS3 are not perfect substitutes (Score:2)
It too bad there isn't an alternative [playstation.com] out there that was more friendly to this sort of thing.
Xbox 360 and PLAYSTATION 3 are not as perfect of substitutes as you make them out to be. Case in point: Xbox 360 has downloadable Lumines. GBA has a downloadable Lumines clone [pineight.com]. But the PS3 does not have Lumines, nor does it have any other downloadable product with the same rules as Lumines.
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There isn't really a 360 version of PixelJunk Monsters either (if we want to look at DLC). The PC has DeskTop Tower Defender, but thats not really the same experience.
I'm sure some of the gamers on each system would also sell their f
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Thats terrific. I'm seriously considering this alternative. Tell me - how do I play Saint's Row on this alternative? After all, it's one of my favourite games, and I've played it to death...
Oh, I can't?
Okay, well then how about Viva pinata? My girlfriend and I love playing that together, its so much simplistic fun.
Oh, I can't.
Well, one of my favourite multiplayer experiences is Halo3, surely I can play that on this "alternative" system? No?
Well, I guess since
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- Saint's Row 2 [wikipedia.org] is due out for both consoles at the same time. If you've loved the first one so much that you've "played it to death", the second might be enjoyable.
- I'd suggest getting Viva Pinata for Windows. You'll have no problems with this DRM download nonsense, and be ale to use your existing controllers if you have to send your 360 in for repairs, or decide to upgrade the model. I'd al
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He should sue in small claims court (Score:1)
I hope he doesn't ask for $54 million [slashdot.org].
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How has this just now become an issue? (Score:2)
Defect rate of 1 and 3? (Score:1, Troll)
That and trying to say that you couldn't access the content on a different 360, why don't you just come out and say it, you're an anti-ms trash talking troll.
This didn't happen to me (Score:5, Informative)
1.) Red ring of death (fuck you, Microsoft).
2.) TAKE HARD DRIVE OFF CONSOLE. Send in console for repair.
3.) Get different console with different serial number back. Place hard drive on it.
4.) Console wants to verify my Live account online. Go for it.
5.) All content accessible.
So I'm not really sure what happened to this guy.
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ONLY when signed in to your Xbox Live account, other users of your Xbox have to now use your account to access the stuff they could previously get under their own 'local' profiles.
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It is awful enough that 360s are the least reliable console ever (I'm kinda mad because mine failed recently). After that delay in getting a working system, it's kinda lame that we are then punished, even if only a little bit.
MS
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4a. No Internet access or Xbox Live is down
4b. Multiple gamertags in the same household
That changes your #5 to:
5. All purchased DLC inaccessible
My experience differs (Score:5, Informative)
The second time it happened I got one of the new Falcon chipset 360s with HDMI which is a great thing for me in the first place as my monitor wont do 1080p over analog VGA so I finally got the option to run at 1080p with this new console. They also now have a set procedure for porting ownership of content to a new console and have done for a fair while whereby you merely submit your new console ID and a scan/fax of the replacement receipt from the retailer and they'll port the content ownership to the new system. Again, I was given a free 2100 points, not as much as last time but still something.
So the second time I got a sweet new V2 console and both times I got nice fresh new controllers and headsets which is a bonus as those type of things get a bit worn and tatty after a while anyway.
Should the system fail? Well of course not, but to suggest the process with dealing with faulty consoles is a big deal I think is a bit silly, having known 2 other people with RROD'd 360s who have also had similar experiences to me in that it's been quick and easy. Of course people have bad support experiences, personally I'd never purchase from Dell ever again as the result of such an experience but with bad support experiences on the net it's very easy to bend the truth a little, as I say what strikes me as odd is my last console was dealt with about 3 months ago and when I called support they were well aware of the issue and also the set procedure I mentioned they now have for dealing with DRM moves (rather than the previous aformentioned method of granting you points to rebuy on a new account to re-tie the games to a new console).
Besides, I'm not sure why this is news, the V2 consoles have been out ages now so the RROD whine is rather obsolete and I'm rather suprised to see last years whine making headlines again, aren't we supposed to be laughing at MS about how HD-DVD failed or something instead now?
Don't get me wrong, no DRM at all would be the best solution but let's face it, how many people would just copy games onto memory cards and pass round to their mates? Hell, you can even get memory card/360 hard drive to USB adapters so likely people would just grab them off bittorrent! I'm against DRM on a PC because it's a failed concept but on a console I see it as part of the package and in a way, one of the main tools consoles have for defeating cheating that is a major issue in online PC gaming.
Damn, which P.R. firm are you working for... (Score:2)
Our 360 died also a few months back. I'm totally pissed about the "gotta be logged in" to play my games crap. I absolutely, unequivocally do not like the idea that I MUST have my 360 actively connected to the Internet at all times that I want to play my purchased games.
My 360 is connected to our network via a hardline in our entertainment center. If I want to move the system to another room to play (eg, bedroom, etc...), I need to drag a network wire across my house and hope nobody
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That'll solve the very issue you're talking about as mentioned in my other post and you'll almost certainly also get some free extra points as compensation.
I know what you mean, the situation sucks, I didn't like it either but my point here has been that despite the fact I really didn't like the situation, Microsoft did a fair bit to not only resolve but compensate me for the issue too. It is a pain in the a
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I suppose you could claim your old console died and was out of warranty so you just bought a new one and try that, or even perhaps just be honest it may simply be that the procedure is slightly different for the situation you mentioned. I'm assuming the issue is that they don't want to transfer to a new console if they can'
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I hate to be one of those 'just google it!' people, but, unfortunately, this is the first thing [xbox.com] that comes up for 'xbox 360 hard drive transfer' on a Google search. Emphasis mine to illustrate that this isn't Elite-specific.
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Yes, but this is by design. Unless you can show me a document somewhere that states content *is* transferable from hardware to hardware, which they're now failing to live up to...?
Quite honestly, this is all the same as somebody hacking up some GPL'd software they'd downloaded, then acting all surprised that they were expected to then release the source. Live Content has always been tied to the hardware, then the Live account.
Yes, this had a hell of an unexpected consequence when they had defective co
Small Claims Court (Score:2)
One ring... (Score:2)
Sorry, just had to.
Seriously, < insert boring old lame DRM quote here >
So going through more than on console is the norm? (Score:2)
Something's seriously wrong with this story (Score:3, Informative)
According to the article, this happened recently (Feb 2008). However Microsoft has had a solution for DRM problems on consoles replaced through warranty repair since May or June of 2007. I don't think they publicize it like they should, but the last time I went through repair was June and the process was brand new so maybe they do better now.
Anyway, it works like this:
- Your Xbox 360 breaks. You call support, schedule a repair, and send it in. KEEP YOUR HARD DRIVE (though this only matters if you care about your save games)
- You receive your replacement console 1-3 weeks later.
- You drill down in your account information off of the Marketplace blade to find your Download History.
- You go through your download history, re-downloading each DRM-protected piece of content you wish to be able to use offline on your new console.
- The downloads go extremely quickly, because you kept your hard drive. You're not actually re-downloading the whole content (that would suck for a 6GB Xbox Original game, for example). Instead, you're just downloading a new key that will sign the content to the new console ID.
As of right now, this process is only available if you go through the official Microsoft repair process (in warranty, or for $100 out of warranty). If you use a store replacement warranty, take advantage of a store's lenient return policy like CostCo used to have, or replace the console yourself (because you want to upgrade, or you hacked your console and it won't make it through official repairs), you're screwed. The rekeying process requires manual intervention to invalidate the old console ID and set up the content to retrieve a new key when you download it again.Yes, it's a rather tedious process and it would be great if there was a "Download all premium content again" option to make it go quicker, but that's beside the point. The only value to this article is to show that customer support agents can suck. But we all knew that already, right?
Same problem for me... (Score:2)
Yeah, screw that. (Score:2)
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How do you play games on game consoles?
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Again, I fail to see the relevance to what I posted.
Would someone like to explain what my downloading of TV shows to my computer and playing them on my xbox has shit to do with what games I choose to play?
Unrelated Information (Score:2)
He could only access purchased items with a specific account
A lot of Xbox Live content is tied to specific accounts, the machine having a different serial and red rings have nothing to do with it. While it does effectively double the cost of having multiple Live accounts on the same box, it also lets you transfer your user and content to any box you are playing on. My guess is he hadn't tried accessing the content with another account before, otherwise he would have noticed it before the red rings.
Should have just bought a PS3! (Score:2)
consoles have not appeal for me (Score:2)
Re:HAH! (Score:4, Insightful)
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Wow, what is this? Repost 3 day old stories from The Consumerist day?
I'd say "You must be new here", but your UID would disagree with me. This isn't "Slashdot: WHAT'S ABSOLUTELY FRESH OFF OF THE BLOGROLLS, Stuff that matters". I don't read the consumerist every day, and if everyone on slashdot did, this story would be completely redundant. If it really irks you to see a story you've read somewhere else before, I'd hate to see what you do with a physical newspaper that you've actually paid for.
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"Whiny retards"? See also Fanboi Trolls (Score:2)
My roommate keeps his own profile so we can keep our saves and info separate. His fucking savegames broke on Oblivion because with the replacement box it now won't load up the expansion content.
Interestingly, this only happened THIS time, the other two times the replacement XB
I have one. (Score:2)
Worst fucking waste of $600 ever - all I got was a $600 upsampling DVD player.
And I'll believe Home and the in-game XMB when I see them. Which should be about the time Duke Nukem Forever launches.
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