LittleBigPlanet Delayed Due To Qur'an-Sampling Audio 995
Several readers have pointed out that Sony's much-awaited LittleBigPlanet has hit a snag and will be delayed worldwide. The delay came after it was discovered that a song licensed for use in the soundtrack contained audio samples from the Qur'an. All advanced copies sent to retailers for the target release of October 21 in North America, 22 in PAL territories, and 24 in the UK and Ireland, have been recalled. "The post, by user 'Solid08', indicates of the specific references in the composition: 'In the 18th second: "kollo nafsin tha'iqatol mawt", literally: "Every soul shall have the taste of death' ... almost immediately after, in the 27th second: "kollo man alaiha fan", literally: "All that is on earth will perish."'"
ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
So what if it has that there?
And we reproduced the lines here? (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought writing the lines in text was a reproduction just as much as the audio? Yet /. just posted them?
Or maybe I'm just confused and there is a difference between writing them and the audio copy.
Uh Oh. (Score:5, Insightful)
What are they afraidn of? (Score:4, Insightful)
Just want to clarify (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Is that supposed to be offensive to someone? I dare say anyone with the background to understand the words and recognize them as a quote from an old religious tome would be unlikely to get too worked up.
Qur'an verses in media (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see the big deal here, since Muslims are supposed to want to distribute the Qur'an. But I can see how people would be extra paranoid about offending Muslims, since some of them take offense violently.
To quote Bill Hicks (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah? And? So? What?
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Different Sony, right? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm... do religions of peace say things like:
(Sura 2:191-193) "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
(Sura 8:12) "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."
(Sura 8:59-60) "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
(Sura 9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and fought jihad with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."
(Sura 9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
(Sura 9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them"
(Sura 9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and fight jihad with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."
Yeah. I'm sure they were worried about "offending" people whose idea of responding is to kill anyone who "offends" them. Like, say, Theo Van Gogh or Salman Rushdie.
Sad day to see this happen.
Freedom of Speech? (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe they were afraid of being beheaded or murdered for making fun of the prophet?
Worse than a beheading maybe they were afraid of the copyright infringement.
Religion of peace?
Everytime you self-censor Islamic references, (Score:5, Insightful)
the radicals and the terrorists win acceptance of the idea that they alone get to dictate how the world handles their pet delusion.
Re:Just want to clarify (Score:2, Insightful)
Not a troll, has a legit point. Where's the outrage for the mod abuse?
So? (Score:3, Insightful)
Who fucking cares? Is the Qu'ran copyrighted or something? Stop coddling these bullshit religions.
Re:So what? (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem seems to be worry that you'll get the same sort of reaction from a group of people whose religion tells them to burn effigies over cartoons, or stick knives in people's chests, for "offending" them.
Just look at what happened to Theo Van Gogh and Salman Rushdie, to name just two.
Now ask yourself whether that's really a "religion of peace" or something else. I can understand why the Little Big Planet studios were afraid of this.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sony is pulling it to avoid offending anyone who would not like phrases from the Qur'an used in association with such a game.
In my mind Sony is actually going above and beyond to do the correct thing here. (Never thought that I would find myself typing those words.) I still believe they have a long way to go to make up for all of the DRM crap that they have pulled in the past though.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
They just want to be sensitive (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, it's amazing how sensitive people can be when offending some religious group might get your building bombed or your artists shot or stabbed.
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The original complaint (Score:4, Insightful)
So what? Having a game censored because of pandering to some primitive superstition is highly offensive to me.
Sephiroth! (Score:5, Insightful)
Noooooo! Don't take my Final Fantasy CDs away! Not my Evangelion! Not Ghost in the Shell!
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but the West left most of their worst religious-nutball-inspired-violence behind hundreds of years ago. Muslims are still doing it.
Most but not all. I wouldn't want my religion being judged based on abortion clinic bombers.
It is fair to say that the Islamic world has a serious problem with violent extremists, a problem that must be addressed.
To mockingly say "Religion of Peace indeed", and imply that Muslims in general are engaging in violence, is not only unfair it's bigotry.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
Cowering from bullies is not the right thing to do.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Please link to some news stories of Christian suicide bombings. Then your silly "everybody does it" argument might at least be factual. (It's still a ridiculous argument, even if everybody did do it -- but everybody doesn't.)
Re:I don't get it (Score:2, Insightful)
but those people don't kill people, and will still buy the game.
Muslims believe in killing people who disobey there religious texts.
If you are Muslim and not killing people, you are not practicing your religion properly.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to see this as Sony paying respect, not as them knuckling under to threats. I would like to think that they would do the same thing if it was a passage from a Buddhist text which had offended Buddhists with its inclusion. (ashamed that I can't name a Buddhist text without looking it up)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
+1 for selective quotes +5 for unnecessary incendiary quoting -5 questionable modding
Re:Uh Oh. (Score:3, Insightful)
As opposed to the Bible? Seriously, this line of argument is crap. "Evil is as Evil does", or something to that effect. The bible has its share of slay them all, sleeping with your daughters and subhuman people. It boils down to what people do with it. And the vast majority of the 2 billion+ Muslims ARE peaceful.
Re:ANd? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, use anything from the Qur'an in jest or light, and you can expect a bombing of your headquarters by muslims. Make fun of the Bible or Christians and expect to be prayed for, but never told you can't do it.
Which is the religion of peace again?
Doing this because you don't want offend all of your customers is probably the right thing. Bowing down to terrorists isn't. Which do you think they're doing? Personally, I sure wouldn't want to hear anything from the Qur'an in a game I'm playing.
The fuck is going on here? (Score:5, Insightful)
How many slashdot trolls had mod points today?
Seriously - this has meaning. The guess that they pulled the game because of fears over rioting/threats or actual violence is a pretty good guess given the "objectionable" content that's being removed from the game.
Would you think they'd have removed it for a couple of lines in Yiddish? Or a Biblical quotation, or a Celtic pagan quotation? You can be 100% sure that they wouldn't.
Give Parent Poster his karma back. This wasn't "flamebait."
Help! Help! I'm being repressed! (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no right to "not to be offended". Especially when the group in question, or at least its more vocal components, respond to satire and criticism with riots, bombs, and assassination. In some parts of the world, all it takes is an ill-founded rumor that someone interprets as a slight to Islam to trigger riots and mob violence. The solution isn't to appease the mob. If people act like thugs, they should be treated like thugs.
Give us a call when you get tired of living in the dark ages.
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
Dunno, seems like a pretty odd thing for a peaceful religion to say sure. Of course, cherry picking to find offensive things in the Quar'an isn't any better than quote mining the Bible. I think that there should be more of a push to get people to actually read their religious texts, in my extremely informal sampling of my friends/classmates/housemates/etc it seems that there's very little of that amongst those who describe themselves as belonging to a certain religion.
Proverbs 20:30 Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.
- Hence, Jesus was *really* pure when he finally got crucified? And bullies in schools are just trying to make their victims more godly?
Deuteronomy 7:1 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations ... then you must destroy them totally. 2 Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
- Peaceful indeed.
Leviticus 21:18 For no one who has a defect shall approach: a blind man, or a lame man, or he that hath a flat nose, of anything superfluous.
- Shun those with physical abnormalities. And yet, Jesus supposedly hung around with the blind, lepers, clubfooted people all the friggen time?
Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the saviour of the body.
1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.
- That's right. Get back in the kitchen! Get back to submitting and quit telling me to take out the garbage.
Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your GOD.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
- Pants are bad but rape is OK as long as you pay for it and marry her.
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
- Jesus explaining what he wants people to do when he returns.
Leviticus 25:45 Moveover the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land; and they shall be your possession.
Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Isaiah 13:15-16 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished.
- "Stab all those people over there, bash the head's of their babies in against a rock, then rape their women(especially the young cute virgins)." Sounds more like the order of a corrupt general than an omnibenevolent diety.
Leviticus 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness, he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood. And both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
- Because we all know that menstrual blood is icky and if people fuck when she's on the rag they should be killed.
Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his slave, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished
Buddha says (Score:5, Insightful)
Buddha says I should forgive you and remind you that two wrongs don't make a right.
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
It's even got paedophilia.
The Bible's got incest, rape, mass-murder (and it advocates some mass-murders, too), and all sort of cruelties that were committed by both Jews and Christians--such as any other people in the history of humanity.
How 'bout you read the old testament for a change?
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
"Oh, come on. You've read the Old Testament, right?"
Sure, but nowadays only a tiny few people actually consider that old superstitious nonsense much more than a hobby. Even the Christian fanatics in the US rarely go very far. Note that Christian superstition also has a New Testament...The Quran is still taken seriously, to which current events will attest.
Why should we who know better respect religion? Religion does not respect us.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
The scale is nowhere near the same, and you know it. When millions of Muslims protest (violently), but only dozens of Christians are involved in clinic bombings (and those haven't happened in many years), it's disingenuous to compare one with the other.
Besides which, the real difference between the two aren't the modern followers, it's the founders. Jesus was a pretty nice guy who could be counted on to provide extra booze at a party (even if he was a mite touchy about conducting business in a temple). Mohammed raped and slaughtered thousands of people, kept slaves, and taught his followers to kill anyone who disagreed with them (and not in parables that people can take out of context, but in direct orders). Not even remotely similar.
Re:The original complaint (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Well done. You just pointed out a different religious text that tells it's followers to kill and teaches hate. That in no way it a counter argument to the posters point.
A Muslim is not Islam (Score:5, Insightful)
... the licensed LBP soundtrack song 'Tapha Niang' by Muslim artist Toumani Diabate's Symmetrical Orchestra uses voice excerpts from the Qur'an in its musical composition.
We Muslims consider the mixing of music and words from our Holy Quran deeply offending.
What's this "we" shit?
Changing culture... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm convinced that this sort of thing is a last gasp amongst the extremists to hold onto the old ways. The fact is that the world is changing and nobody can stop it. The Middle East is being exposed to the outside world via the internet and other media. The religious hardliners are realizing that they're losing their hold on the people and I suppose like most people they don't like change.
I realize American imperialism is brought up as the reason for this violence. But I'm convinced that's bullshit. The widespread dissemination of foreign cultures is the more real and subtle threat.
I think it's similar to certain Christian groups in this country coming out trying to denounce evolution and force creationism on people. Deep down they realize their religion is being marginalized and are grasping at straws trying to make it relevant.
The problem is that they're confusing a crumbling power structure for faith when the two aren't connected. There's no reason whatsoever why a person can't be devoutly religious and still accept science and progress.
The key difference, however, is that Muslim extremists are more likely to blow things up to get their way, or at least threaten to do so. Sure, you get the occasional Christian nut who tries to shoot an abortion doctor or something, but that's the extent of it. But Christians consistently denounce the act. On the other hand, at best Muslims won't say anything at all and at worst will run into the streets in celebration.
But ultimately these small victories are insignificant in the long run. And having heard some guys complaining about how Middle Eastern is growing increasingly liberal the days of religious extremism are numbered.
Political correctness has crippled America. By no means am I endorsing bigotry and racism, but we should be able to have open discourse about issues without it devolving into claims of racism.
The percentage of the Muslim population in the US is .6% to 1%. The last time I checked we still had free speech and the presence of this passage in a game is not intentionally offensive from what I can tell.
When Andres Serrano dumped a crucifix in urine and photographed it he wasn't banned from displaying his work. Hell, a nun actually stated in an interview that the work was not blasphemous but rather an example of what people have done to Christ.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
"And not taking the feelings of others into consideration is?"
Irrelevant.
"...you'd be okay with that?"
If a game says something I don't like, I don't buy it. I do not apply pressure to force the artists to remove their content.
"What's the problem?"
Forcing an artist to change what they do becasue it offends someone is the antithesis of freedom.
What are you smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)
how come any time someone talks about what's wrong in the Muslim faith, the knee jerk reaction is from a bunch of /b/tards who want to shit all over other religions?
This has nothing to do with the argument, and NeutronCowboy's argument is "crap" as he puts it. It is entirely possible for MULTIPLE religions to be wrong and trying to distract from Islam's problems by attacking another religion is a poor debate tactic, a desperate attempt to distract the argument from something he knows he can't honestly defend.
Remember, hell is exothermic [pinetree.net].
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Either way, I believe you're misguided if you believe the only reason why the so-called terrorism exists is because the Qu'ran advocates mass murder of infidels.
Unfortunately for American media and the US government, reality is much more complex than that.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
Neither deserves to get their way just because they want it, yet some followers of both use terrible means to try to enforce their way. Pretty sad, eh?
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
Really ? In islam it is the prophet that commits paedophilic rape (forces a 9 year old girl to have sex with him).
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.236 [usc.edu]
Please point out in the bible where Jesus rapes a 9-year old girl "because God tells him to" ... After all I've shown you the equivalent in islam ("repression" in English).
Please show me the christian states where rape of minor girls is STILL practiced because limiting such would be "illegal". Please show me the christians demanding the right to rape underage girls, please show me christians murdering their children because they try to run from these marriages ...
After all "it's all the same", isn't it ? Let's see it.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:1, Insightful)
EvilBible.com [evilbible.com] has many nice links. Your children are disobedient? KILL THEM! That's right, god tells you to right in the book. Many, many more examples of just how loving and caring that god really is.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Everything offends someone.
freedom of speech means you can say what you want. Of course, nobody has to stay an listen.
Re:So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Or burn people at the stake.
Or lynch people for the color of their skin.
Or torture people to "confess" their sins.
All carried out by church-loving citizens. Oh wait, we were bashing Islam here. My bad.
It does seem to be a double standard (Score:5, Insightful)
The Church of England got miffed when one of their churches was featured prominently in one of the levels of Resistance: Fall Of Man. This is a seemingly bigger offense than including a couple snippets of the Quran, yet Sony refused to recall the game.
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
Really ? Why don't you tell us what reality is ? Because all these media seem to get the ball all wrong (well everybody certainly seems to agree all these facts are totally misguiding everyone)
The fact that the quran openly calls for genocide, and that these calls have been answered by muslims during their entire history, certainly doesn't help matters. But you're right. Most, if not 99% of islamic terror is muslims killing muslims for the most despicable of reasons, few having anything to do with religion. Money, fame, anger and especially shame cause muslims to murder eachother, but taking away the murder excuse that is islam would do no harm whatsoever.
That said, of course you're right every ten years or so there is a terrorist attack that isn't muslims killing for islam. Every now and then some communists kill around a bit. It's been a while though.
http://thereligionofpeace.com/ [thereligionofpeace.com]
This week ONLY terrorist attacks. Since monday muslims murdered 70 people "for allah". Strangely enough there weren't any non-muslim terrorist attacks this week. Anyway here's the list :
10/16/2008 Pakistan Swat 5 15 A Fedayeen suicide car bomber rams into a police station, killing five Pakistanis.
10/15/2008 Iraq Karbala 22 0 A mass grave is discovered containing the bodies of twenty-two abducted shepherds
10/15/2008 Iraq Baghdad 7 18 A Mujahideen bomb blast and separate mortar attack on a mosque leave seven civilians dead.
10/15/2008 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 6 0 Six local police are taken out in a brutal Taliban ambush on their checkpoint.
10/15/2008 Pakistan Swat 2 0 The Taliban enter a home and murder a husband and wife.
10/15/2008 Pakistan Swat 3 0 Three people, including two brothers, are killed in two Jihad shooting attacks.
10/14/2008 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 0 Religious extremists assassinate a government official who aids war widows.
10/14/2008 Afghanistan Uruzgan 9 6 Two children are among nine civilians murdered when Taliban bombers target a minibus.
10/14/2008 Philippines North Cotabato 1 0 Moro Islamists attack a Christian village, killing one civilian and driving many families from their homes.
10/14/2008 Pakistan Kabal 1 0 Sunni extremists abduct, torture and behead a local soldier.
10/14/2008 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 Islamists murder the driver of an aid agency.
10/14/2008 India Poonch 2 0 Mujahideen kill two local soldiers in separate ambushes.
10/13/2008 Afghanistan Ghazni 6 2 Religious extremists take out six civilians with a roadside blast.
10/13/2008 Pakistan Darra Adam Khel 1 4 A sudden Sunni rocket attack leaves a local security staff member dead.
10/13/2008 Somalia Mogadishu 2 23 Two African Union mission members are killed when Muslim militia attack their vehicles.
10/13/2008 Pakistan Murid Wal 1 0 A young man is forced by honor to kill his mother when she refuses to break off an 'illicit' relationship.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Please my friend can we stop with the Islam bashing? I'm begging.
I'm just a good old Canadian boy who happened to marry into a family of Muslims and let me tell you the only thing that the entire lot of them want to do is have six-thousand course dinner parties that go on for hours and dance. I'm serious.
If they worry about anything, which they don't seem to much, it's that their religion has been hijacked by nutcases. I guess we could talk about how the nutcases seem to always come from fundamentalist dictatorships that America had a hand in creating and supporting (The House of Saud, the Wahib clan, The Shah of Iran, the Taliban, Musharraf, Assad).
But that is another discussion. If anyone holds to the belief that inside the heart of every Muslim is a bloodthirsty jihadist looking for the right time to strike, well, you couldn't be more wrong. Why not just go with the flow and enjoy the fact that middle eastern women tend towards the large-chested and friendly?
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:ANd? (Score:2, Insightful)
freedom of speech means you can say what you want
Sadly many people want "freedom from being offended"
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
That's all great, but all of the most cheesy lines are from the Old Testament. Now Christians also have the New Testament, and the majority of them worldwide (all Catholics, all Orthodox, most Protestants) believe that the New Testament had done away with those old commandments, so that they're no longer in force, and also don't take the suspect lines from NT (such as "Not to Bring Peace, But a Sword") literally. Of course, there is also a "fire and brimstone", stone-the-gays minority that believes they're very much in force, but it's a tiny minority - and the one largely ostracized.
Can you point me at the equivalent of the New Testament in Islam that would discard the laws such as stoning for adultery or beheading for apostasy, or name a mainstream Islamic school of law that considers those laws to not be in force today? Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?
Re:To quote Bill Hicks (Score:3, Insightful)
Then I'd say that Muslims should definitely refrain from doing this. However, we aren't all Muslims - why would the rest of us be expected to follow their beliefs?
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
That is quite an important (and occasionally overlooked) point; the most dangerous people in the world are those with nothing left to lose.
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
Nobody is trying to force public displays of pictures of Jesus
Nope, nothing like that [wikipedia.org].
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
It always amazes me how people don't read what they're referring to ... Heh.
Besides, in the new testament you won't even find this type of things. So unless you're criticizing the Jews, might I remind you that (at least in catholicism and protestantism) the old testament is a historical tale, describing God's interactions with the Jews. Not the center of Christian dogma, that would be the new testament. Jesus, who refuses to shed blood even to save himself. The best known story ever told on this little planet. But even in the old testament the situation isn't one tenth as bad as you imply :
1 Chronicles 21
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it...
Oops, guess that one was a misser on your part, right ? You said "God". Actually a king did it, at the direction of satan. Also read the entire story. He did quite a bit more than "counting" before God intervened, protecting people (protecting some by attacking others).
Deuteronomy 3
Is about 2 armies fighting. One army faced another. One army did not survive, because God supported the other side.
Hardly seems the same as "killing and plundering all cities", now doesn't it ? Oops. They did gain dominion of a kingdom through that victory. Well duh, they didn't fight for fun, they actually fought over something.
I'd name all of them, none of which are anywhere near as clear-cut as you imply, but what's the point ? It's not like you're actually trying to make an informed argument about the bible. You haven't read the bible, and you're proud of the fact. First read those stories (and chapter before your reference and chapter after them), then we'll discuss what means what, like informed adults.
Re:So what? (Score:4, Insightful)
The line can be drawn quite simply.
Practice highly visible public heresy, for example by quoting particularly unflattering passages of a particular religion's holy book.
Now: how many death threats do you receive?
If the answer is not "zero", then you can start with the snide remarks.
I can't recall ever hearing about someone who declined to publish something naughty about Christianity because they feared for their lives. But the same thing happens routinely with Islam.
There is a qualitative difference between having a small group of nutballs angry at you and having the government of a major middle-eastern power decide that you should die because you insulted their religion.
Re:So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
"religious-nutball-inspired-violence behind hundreds of years ago"
Nonsense. Absolute nonsense.
-Europe had a nice bout of Christians on Muslim Genocide in the 90s. 250,000 murdered in the name of Christ.
-Then there was that Holocaust thing. Lets not forget how many "Christians" in France and Italy were gleeful participants.
-Wiping out Native Americans throughout the 1800s most certainly had a religious component. Civilizing the saveges, etc.
-A MAJOR component of American fear and hatred for Communism stemmed from a Christian hatred for aethiesm.
-The Iraq war. How many Americans justified this or were motivated by Christianity? GWB certainly did to an extent. As did Pat Robertson and his moronic followers.
And in the U.S. how often are Christians beating and murdering gays, doctors at abortion clinics, etc?
Sorry religious violence is rampant in the West to this day. That is because religion is by necessity, violent.
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll make you a deal.
They stop treating their women as if they were afraid of womens' sexuality (keeping in mind I've done PLENTY of study of Islam) and stop sticking their women in beekeepers' outfits, and I'll be more than happy to "appreciate" the fact that middle eastern women tend towards large-chested and friendly.
In all seriousness, though... "worrying" that your religion is "hijacked", and actually standing up en masse and saying so, are two different things. And by and large, Muslims seem just fine letting people "hijack" their religion all day long. That creates its own set of problems. Let's face it, the number of people at various "not in our name, you don't represent Islam" rallies is a mere fraction of those who rally for death and murder in Islam's name across the world.
I wish it weren't so. I wish your relatives the best, I really do. But there's a long road ahead and they are, sadly, VERY much in the minority concerning their interpretation of the Muslim faith.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
"Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?"
Absolutely. This is a retarded question attempting to pigeonhole a huge group of people simply because it's easier than treating people like individuals.
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're an American there are parts of your own country where that isn't true
[Citation Needed]
Re:ANd? (Score:3, Insightful)
I know of an easier [wordpress.com], cheaper [saddler.co.uk] solution [swim-shop.com] that nobody seems to want for some reason [wikimedia.org]. Shame.
These people really need to lighten up and learn to deal with it.
Family values facade (Score:4, Insightful)
Yet all of the Muslims I've ever met are charming, peaceful friendly people. Big on family values, very law abiding, and socially responsible.
You probably haven't gotten to know them very well. The majority of people are dishonest, hypocritical, untrustworthy and at least condone some measure of violence against their opponents. This is despite any religious or political facade that underlies the way they think and act.
Show me a "family values" person and chances are that they are intolerant, prejudiced, and hypocritical.
Re:Uh Oh. (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Personally? I'd like to introduce you to some of my friends. Sadly, you don't seem to know enough Muslims.
2) Sheik Tantawi
3) Adultery is not a punishable? I'd dare you to find one RELIGION where that's not punishable (and no, Hedonism doesn't count).
4) I've got a few more: Sayyid al-Qimni, Abd-al-Karim, Ridwan al-Sayyid.... a quick google brings up plenty of moderate Muslim scholars who aren't considered apostate by most other Muslims. They are, of course, apostates by the standard of radical Fundamentalists, but that's not what we're talking about, are we? Unless, of course, you're arguing that the majority of Muslims are radical Fundamentalists. In which case, I can't help you.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
umm, scales being unequal and all that jazz, you're still a bigot. mohammad didn't rape and slaughter thousands. he was elevated to the leader of his tribe as he gained more followers, and in a effort to protect him and his followers he lead muslims in war.
its true that there was slavery in arabia at the time of mohammad, roughly 650 AD (i hear there was slavery in the US till not too long ago)... the religion brought rules and fair treatment of slaves to the a region that even the arabs now call a region plagued by 'jahilia' (ignorance). if you read the quran instead of spouted off charged sound bites, you'd know that the quran OK's the practice of slavery in one line, and in the next line says "but it is best if you set them free". repeatedly in the quran it talks about freeing a slave (the punishment for manslaughter, the cost of remarrying your wife, the cost of breaking your vow) and prohibits both the abuse of slaves and the sources of slaves to just prisoners of war.
personally i find the fact that this book, revealed in the 7th century to a people who called themselves 'ignorant', just set up a system for the ethical treatment of slaves and prisoners of war in one deft move impressive. it also set the framework for abolitionism in the middle east a full 12 centuries before abe lincoln. the practice of slavery is now antiquated, and disgusting universally, and that includes the 1.2billion muslims in this world.
regarding this supposed order to kill anyone who disagreed with them...? what? also in the quran, chapter 2, verse 256. "there is no compulsion in religion". and again throughout the quran it talks about people who refuse to believe, and it tells the believers to ignore them, that god has made them this way and that god will judge them fairly.
the quran was actually very very liberal a book in its time and in many ways still is.
the problem with islam today is two-fold:
a) the majority of muslims suffer from a lack of education and are as a result easily swayyed and cowed and tricked by eloquent bastards who preach hatred (there's 1.2 billion of them, and they're not all cheerfully educated in the west, and of the ones educated in the west there are two types, the type who stays in the west and tries to live a comfortable good life and the type who'll go back to their third world home and preach of the evils of the west, think harvard educated redneck bigot)
and b) that a muslims have a hard time seeing reading between the lines of the qur'an. the qur'an again and again asks muslims to be better human beings, to let god judge, to be kind and save life ("if you save a life its as though you've saved all of humanity, and if you take a life its as though you've slaughtered all of humanity") and instead read the surface of the qur'an, which for example sets the punishment for a wayward wife as a light, beating that leaves no marks, in a time when wayward wives were killed and buried by the next morning.
the quran set up a lot of rules for being a good muslim in 7th century arabia, and those should be a framework for being a good muslim in our connected 21st century. like the constitution of the US, which itself had rules to govern slaves, but the framework has been built upon and changed, always mindful of its original intent.
Re:So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
The crimes of Islamic practitioners are neither hundreds of years in the past, nor have they been apologized for (nor have they ceased to occur for the most part). Islam is not a religion of peace. Some of the main tenants teach violence to all who do not follow Islam.
The Christian religion is clear, in the new testament, that we are to forgive, turn the other cheek, and leave the punishing and judgment to someone who has the ability to do the right thing (God).
If you think the Christian Religion is anything other than that, I encourage you to read my sig, and follow it's instructions.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sony could have had a patch released for the game, which is what the Muslim group that complained suggested.
You know, save the ton of money wasted recalling, reprinting and reshipping the product and not piss off the fans that weren't offended.
I'm sorry, but recalling was not the smartest or best choice. Instead of offending a religion, they've pissed off those that wouldn't have been offended. They would have ended up with fewer people with negative opinions on the game with a patch.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's the thing. Assume Squaresoft released a game that happens to offend many christians, for example by having the bad guy have an uncanny similarity to popular depictions of Jesus. Do you think that game or subsequent Squaresoft games would still sell well in countries like the USA? At the very least they'd get lots of negative PR in mainstream media. Lots of negative PR means lots of lost sales. Lots of lost sales means lots of lost money. Lots of lost money means the shareholders want to have a word with whoever's responsible for making the bad guy look like Jesus (and not catching that before release).
Free speech is nice and dandy - if you're a real person. If you're a corporation you can speak freely all you want as long as it doesn't negatively affect sales. If removing Qur'an chants from the game makes it more likely that the game will sell better in muslimic regions then removing Qur'an chants is most probably a good idea.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
You seriously lack perspective. Look again...with an open mind...
In response to items like:
"10/15/2008 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 6 0 Six local police are taken out in a brutal Taliban ambush on their checkpoint."
I suggest:
US strike kills 9 al Qaeda and Taliban in North Wazirstan
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_strike_kills_9_al.php [longwarjournal.org]
US kills 6 in strike in Baitullah Mehsud's territory
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_kills_6_in_strike.php [longwarjournal.org]
US Kills al Qaeda in Iraq's deputy commander
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_kills_6_in_strike.php [longwarjournal.org]
When we do it, its framed as a 'strike against $evil_people' not as an invasion force killing people in their homes, like when they fight back.
In response to something like:
"10/14/2008 Afghanistan Uruzgan 9 6 Two children are among nine civilians murdered when Taliban bombers target a minibus."
how about:
Unmanned US drone kills school children...
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/index.php?sid=403793 [bignewsnetwork.com]
What do you think would be written if it had been their unmanned drone and our children?
And as for this:
"10/13/2008 Pakistan Murid Wal 1 0 A young man is forced by honor to kill his mother when she refuses to break off an 'illicit' relationship."
Gee that sounds awful.. but doesn't REALLY sound much different than this:
"An 18 year old boy, Sean Powell, was shot to death in his car outside the home of the married teacher he had been having an affair with. Local police have arrested the woman's husband, Eric Mclean, in the shooting."
Same motivation, Same result, same difference. Oh wait... you mean to say it was a state sanctioned murder? gotcha...luckily we have those too...
"Kevin Watts, 27, was pronounced dead on Thursday at 6:17 pm Texas time (2317 GMT), spokeswoman Michelle Lyons told AFP.
It was Texas' tenth execution since the start of the year, and the second execution to take place this week. Ten more inmates are scheduled to be killed in Texas by the end of November."
Granted we don't do it for adultry... but on the other hand, we don't exactly have the best track record for even properly ensuring our victims are guilty...
http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/fall97/deathpen.html [abanet.org]
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll make you a deal.
You stop talking about Muslims as if they were a homogeneous hive mind, and I'll stop considering you a flame-stoking bigot.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
In all of the cases you mention, religion was not a major component. Yugoslav wars were centered around ethnicity, with religion being merely a partially determining factor for the former. Holocaust was very much not religious, though some WW2 atrocities were (e.g. Ustashe). And so on.
Here's another take on it. Let's see how many countries in the world still have death penalty for blasphemy and/or apostasy on the books:
Guess what's the official state religion in all of them? And don't give me crap about "tyrannical monarchies" - more than half of the countries on the list above are republics, "Islamic" or otherwise.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Lots of negative PR means lots of lost sales? It depends on the source of the negative PR and on the target audience.
The mainstream media rarely mentions GTA in a positive way, but it hasn't hurt the series' sales any because your average GTA player takes Fox News' approbation as a Good Thing.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the saviour of the body. - That's right. Get back in the kitchen! Get back to submitting and quit telling me to take out the garbage.
That's one of the Bible verses which is most often quoted out of context. If you read it in context [biblegateway.com] then the wife gets off lightly. She only has to submit to her husband: he has to sacrifice his life for her.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. - Pants are bad but rape is OK as long as you pay for it and marry her.
It's not saying that rape is OK. This needs to be read with the cultural context in mind: without this law, the woman would simply be left unmarried and unmarriageable. The remedy for this tort is that the man must give her social status and support her financially for the rest of her life. Sure, she gets a rough deal, but it's better than she would have got otherwise.
Re:Big Deal! (Score:2, Insightful)
My pvp guild in WoW says that EVERY DAY!!!!
Yeah, but Muslims are a "big guild" IRL, and they PVP also.
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
The US isn't exactly known for electing great leaders either, often who do their crimes in the name of Christianity. *shrug*
Re:So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's far from it. The only reason that you think so is because, presently, the liberal-minded Christians form the majority, and define the mainstream interpretation of the scriptures, including the New Testament. Regardless, the latter still has enough questionable statements to justify some very nasty things, and was used as such by Christians in the past.
Where I have to give credit to Christians relative to Muslims is that Christian scriptures are often so vague and uncertain that it is fairly easy to arrive at a mostly self-consistent liberal interpretation of them - which is precisely what was done. It's going to be much trickier with Islam, if it ever happens, because Qu'ran is much more straightforward, and you can only get so far with weasel-wording and sophistry before you find yourself obviously detached from any scriptural and dogmatic basis.
Re:Changing culture... (Score:3, Insightful)
They have to have someone to blame for their problems. Their leaders point them at us to distract.
The middle eastern countries have been awash in oil money for decades. What have they done with it? They haven't built any universities of science or medicine. They haven't created a center of technology to provide jobs. They have built lots of religious schools which teach, surprise, the West, especially the U.S. and Israel, are evil and keeping them down. They have no excuse. With the amount of money they have available to them they could build world class universities and produce their own doctors, scientists, and engineers. Instead, anyone who wants an education in anything except islamic religion must go to a western university.
When their oil money finally dries up, they will have nothing to show for it except a whole lot of pissed off people who have been taught to hate.
let me put it this way (Score:2, Insightful)
If the soundtrack featured "Hallowed Be Thy Name" by Iron Maiden, would the game be delayed? Would we be having this dicussion?
No.
If this was an attempt to negatively portray Islam, I'd agree with removing it - hate speech should not be being disseminated by any company with half a brain. But to remove content simply because of a vocal minority (especially one that is not usually even part of the target audience) is absurd!
In other news (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Different Sony, right? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Religion is a social group (Score:3, Insightful)
A religion is a social group, you can see this clearly if you ever are outside a church/temple/mosque after a session. This is especially true for muslim immigrants. NOT because they are muslim, but because they started out with little else. All imigrants tend to cluster together, to a place they can be among their own, follow their own traditions, remember the good old times, talk about going back but never actually doing it of course.
It is hard to break out of a social group and a social group can only function if it doesn't allow its members to leave. It is the nature of being a group. If you do not try to 'protect' your members, keeping them close, then you are not a group.
It really isn't about religion. African americans have got the same social pressure groups trying to keep blacks black and any who try to break out are pulled back in.
Part of the problem is that if you try to leave your native group, you will for always be an outcast. A black person living a white/asian/jewish life or whatever will still never truly be that. If you see a black amish guy, what do you see first. Amish or black? I use the skin color black because it is so obvious.
A muslim immigrant who truly intigrates into western society, and there are plenty, will still for always be considered by his new home to be an outsider. And of course an outcast by his old group. Having lived in foreign countries, it ain't that easy to always be the foreigner, the stranger. Sometimes it is just easier to stick with what you know because at least those people seem to accept you for you are. They don't, they only accept you if you are them, but at least they accept you.
Muslims are hardly the only homophobes on this earth and there are plenty of homosexual muslims. Part of the reason this sentiment seems so strong among muslims is because it allows them to have a clear identifier that differences them from their new society.
Basically, they got a choice, what fundemental rule do we follow.
Muslims are required by their faith to donate a percentage of their income to charity. So if you want to call yourself muslim, pay 10% of you salary. Nah.
Muslims are required by their faith to abstain from stimulants. So if you want to call yourself muslim, you got to stop smoking, drinking, chocolate etc etc. Nah.
Muslims are required by their faith to pay to the direction of Mekka 3 times a day. So if yu want to call yourself muslim your entire day schedule is dictated by your religion. Nah.
Muslims are required by their faith to look down onto gays. So if you if you want to call yourself muslims as a young teen in a world that doesn't like you and thinks you are the lowest form of life, you have to look down on another group. WINNER!
By that way, other groups got similar problems. US citizens when looking at the heroes and cowards of the world have two choices:
Look at their own war history, arriving late for every World War, getting their ass kicked in korea and having to settle for the current ceasefire. Being kicked out of vietnam. Being kicked out of somalie. Late the balkin wars and doing nothing to stop it. Afraid to interfere in various holocausts. Getting their ass kicked in Iraq and Afghanistan. Withdrawing after some suicide bombings etc etc. Nah
Look at the french war history where a country under massive attack surrundered after months of fighting with half the forces refusing to give up and to continue fighting no matter the risk and call them cheese eating surrender monkeys. WINNER!
Human nature. It ain't pretty.
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
I do not think [...] that America is a great Satan
I do, but it has nothing to do with religion. /partly joking, but America has been doing some very questionable things recently.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:3, Insightful)
The death penalty is a power too big for government to hold, but under no cases can it be even remotely defined as "murder".
Unless its another country doing it? That was sort of my point.
When Pakistan or Afghanistan or other $evil governments do it we (or at least our media) call it murder without hesitation. What is the fundamental difference when we do it?
We've freed some dozen death row inmates in the recent past due to -volunteer- efforts to exonerate them... the 'system' failed. If we execute an innocent man, how is that anything but murder? Especially when it comes out that the police deliberately buried the evidence on men they knew were innocent?
Not to mention the secret prisons, torture, suspension of habeus corpus and so on we've got going on...
Or our handling of Saddam Hussein. We deliberately set him up to get executed by having him tried in that kangaroo court in Iraq. Had he been tried here, he'd still be alive, perhaps on death row, but there is no way he'd have gone from captured to executed as quickly here.
Or we could talk about the Salem witch trials...
My point isn't to say that death row in the US is the equivalent of a serial killer. Its categorically not the same.
But the veneer of civilization and due process and fail safes that are supposed to ensure that it isn't is not as solid as we like to pretend.