Nintendo Files Patent For Game That Plays Itself 152
Kotaku points out a recent patent filed by Nintendo which automates gameplay unless the user specifically chooses to play a particular part of the game. Quoting: "The new system, described in a patent filed by Nintendo Creative Director Shigeru Miyamoto on June 30, 2008, but made public today, looks to solve the issue of casual gamers losing interest in a game before they complete it, while still maintaining the interest of hardcore gamers. The solution would turn a game into a full-length cut scene of sorts, allowing players to jump into and out of the action whenever they wanted. But when played this way, gamers would not be able to save their progress, maintaining the challenge of completing a game without skipping or cheating."
This patent might be thrown out: (Score:4, Insightful)
Am I the only one who sees this as a bit obvious and un-patent-worthy? Games have been doing this for a while during Demo screens... just without the story advancement.
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Nintendo does it, yes (Score:5, Informative)
Nintendo has always played the legal card to the maximum extent possible, going all the way back to the days of draconian contracts that forbade you from making a game for anyone else if Nintendo published one of your games. They tried to control even how much you can advertise. It got ruled invalid eventually, but in the meantime, yes, they did try to put anyone out of business who no loner toes the Nintendo line.
Or here in Europe they tried to strong-arm the retailers into what they can and can't sell, and basically used the European market as an experiment in whether they can make more money with only a handful of games and restricting access to anything else. They actually got slapped with an anti-trust for that, and were found guilty. Worse yet, it turned out that they knew they're in violation of the law, and had planned to violate it, thinking they can make more money than the fine can possibly be. (Wrong guess.)
To get back to patents and to more recent times, they also patented or filed for patent:
- the XBox Live, basically [arstechnica.com]
- emulation of its own consoles, again [slashdot.org], to try to keep other people from doing it (and, yes, they tried to bully emulator developpers before)
- weird stuff, like comparing each other's avatars online [pocket-lint.co.uk], never mind that people have been holding costume contests in COH since the fucking launch in 2004
- something as broad as making a stage magician kinda game/sim [pocket-lint.co.uk]
- a "wearable" controller to digitize body motions [pocket-lint.co.uk], never mind that motion capture has been done before like that for ages
- a rechargeable game controller [espacenet.com] never mind that chargers like that existed for mice, headsets, and everything for freaking ages before that
- just about anything you can put a motion detector into, from bikes to teddy bears [kotaku.com]
- horror games, or at least stuff like hallucinations or hearing voices in games [uspto.gov], never mind that neither is new, and an insanity sim had even been made to train police in how to deal with dementia people
Etc.
Some of those seem to even exist just to keep others from doing it. E.g., they filed for a patent for console online gaming, at a time where they were publicly bashing it and saying they have no intention to do that.
Frankly, I don't get the hardon some people seem to get about Nintendo. While they do have a couple of talented designers, the management has an uninterrupted history of being evil fucks that make MS look good by comparison. They tried every possible way to lock competitors out, and developers in, some of which MS so far never even dreamed about. E.g., I don't remember MS suing anyone for developing for the Mac too. They too broke anti-trust laws. Etc.
And at least the previous management had no problem with even insulting its customers, especially if, god forbid, they're asking for a genre Nintendo isn't currently selling. Yamauchi publicly called RPG gamers "depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games", for example.
The only thing that changed that was the GameCube being the second dud in a row, which prompted a mellowing out of attitude. If they ever get back in a positio
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But that's exactly why Nintendo fascinates me. They manage to utilize all the protections and attacks the law provides for and still thrive; most companies can't, because you just drain goodwill too fast to do business. Nintendo, beyond anything else, does absurdly good PR.
Which, when you think about it, makes them the revived Apple before Apple.
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Well, fascinating it is. I don't think many other companies outright insulted their customers (see such Yamauchi quotes as the one I quoted) _and_ business partners (see their attitude to the devs when some threatened to jump ship in the N64 days... which caused most to actually do jump ship) _and_ have a chairman who's publicly _proud_ to not be among the customers (Yamauchi actually took pride in never having played a single video game in his life), and, yes, get such adoring fans.
I mean, comparing to tha
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Well, Yamauchi resigned some time ago. The new leadership was necessary to pull off the changes needed for the DS and Wii. Also most people consider Miyamoto their public faceinstead of Yamauchi and Miyamoto's public character (no idea how he's in private) is pretty humble and friendly.
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Miyamoto is a nice and humble guy, yes. On the other hand, some of the recent blanket patents have been filed by him, or maybe in his name.
In at least the patent aspect, nothing seems to have changed lately. Nintendo after Yamauchi still patents everything in sight, and every vague idea that they might sometimes use... or just wish to keep their competitors from using. The one in today's news wasn't filed under Yamauchi, was it?
So at the very least, this still is my answer the OP's "Imagine if having a firs
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http://www.gamespot.com/news/2467470.html [gamespot.com]
Yamauchi does not say "depressed gamers who like to sit alone in their dark rooms and play slow games". What he did say was "stop playing boring games" and "If we can change the quality, the number of the available software titles can be as little as one-tenth the current figure. Somebody says there are a small number of titles available for Nintendo 64 and others say we do not have enou
Bzzt. Different interview (Score:4, Interesting)
Nope, it's not even remotely the one I'm refering to. The quote about RPG gamers is from an 1999 interview.
But, yes, he did do a lot of stupid quotes in his time, including the one you linked to. Telling me that I play boring games, and that I should stop playing them for no other reason than that all the RPG developers left Nintendo... isn't exactly going to make me like him.
Especially because of this: he didn't play either kind of games, and took pride in not having played any game ever. So _how_ does he fucking know which are boring and which aren't? On what knowledge does he base his presuming to tell me what to play? Oh, wait, he's just telling me to buy his snake-oil and stop buying the competition's. And not even in nice terms.
I mean, picture me coming and saying something like, "I haven't played any MMO, and I'm proud I never blew my money on those, but I know that Vanguard rules and WoW is crap. Only depressed losers play WoW. Stop playing that boring game now." (Just hypothetically.) Wouldn't you say, "so how would you know, if you haven't played either?"
I mean it's like a nun telling you which sexual position feels better. Or like a vegan telling you which meat tastes better and which to buy. Or like the Amish telling you which brand of car is more fun to drive. I could go on, but you get the idea already. How would he flipping know?
But, as I was saying, he doesn't. He was just telling us to stop buying the competition's product and start buying more of his. Without even having used either. Just because one makes him money and the other doesn't.
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Duly noted, but, still, I'm guessing you wouldn't go on a stage and tell people to "stop watching boring anime", from some position of authority, based on just second hand hearsay. It's one thing to offer an opinion when asked, and even then presumably in the same circle from which you already have some idea about their subjective tastes. And it's another thing to go and proclaim what's wrong with someone who likes X, when you haven't even seen X. I'm guessing you don't do that, right?
Also, at the very leas
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Do not try to compete with the others, try to be the only one.
I think it's a great quote in and of itself, but taken within the context of his anti-competitive practices it puts a whole new spin on things. I guess it makes sense that to not compete you either have to do something completely different from someone else or prevent someone else from doing the same thing as you.
As far as why people still have such a positive attitude towar
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1. For example, Top 10 Tuesday: Wildest Statements Made by Industry Veterans [ign.com]. It's at number 4.
2. Do your own fucking research. It takes a whole 5 seconds to copy and paste that phrase into Google. Ah, wait, it's just another meme that lets retards pretend they're part of some big smart family by copy-and-pasting something. Carry on, then. No need to start using your own brain now, after all.
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Bullshit.
You know what? Providing citations for facts is like bringing a knife to a nuke fight. Nobody else, including you "[citation needed]" assholes, ever backs up their ridiculous assertions.
I've tried actually backing up my assertions with sources. Know what happens? You spend hours researching a post and forming a strong arguement only to be derailed by the first jackass who says "no it isn't" and pulls some fantasy out of their ass.
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I think software patents are bad, and that therefore this is not patent worthy, but I'd be hard pressed to find a game that does this. Sure, there are the occasional playable cutscenes. But in how many of those can you do more than wander around? Can you name a single game where you can just decide to not to play while in the middle of any given level, and the game will play for you? I'm not sure I like the idea, but it does sound different and neat. Possibly very interesting, if used well -- or possib
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Correct, but I was talking general principles. But take the case you mentioned, I don't see the point in that.
To paraphrase what someone else said in this thread, games are escapism, so why escape from them?
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left 4 dead?
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We need to look at what exactly Nintendo is trying to patent here. If it's the idea of coding a specific set of instructions per game to auto-play the game, then no, it should not be patentable, and not just because of all the prior art.
But if they developed a drop-in system that can auto-play any game.. well fuck, Nintendo basically just created Skynet. May as well give them the patent, we're already screwed.
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Well, maybe they just came up with the idea of Skynet, and haven't actually developed it yet. Still, they should be able to patent it then right?
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Ur-Quan Masters [sourceforge.net]. You can either fly through hyperspace by yourself, or let the autopilot guide you. The former has advantages if you're flying through enemy territory and want to avoid confrontations. The old Elite games also have an autopilot available. Coming to think of it, World of Goo's "skip this level" feature could be considered effectively the same as a self-p
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Not bored, overwhelmed. It's a hint system.
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The problem is that there is quite a bit of prior art to this. For example, Dungeon Keeper in which you can just sit there after building a dungeon, or you can take over a creature using first-person controls.
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Prior to this, Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_to_Doomsday) in 1990 on the Sega Megadrive, and other systems - was a DnD style team RPG that let you use "Quick combat" to put characters on "auto-combat" for the fight scene.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were older examples.
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Dungeon Siege also played itself. The player was just along for the ride with minimal interaction.
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In what sense?
Under 2 of course, anything is patentable, even a particular shade of a colour.
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In what sense?
Under 2 of course, anything is patentable, even a particular shade of a colour.
[Citation needed]
As for a game that can play itself when the player gets stuck but allows the player to immediately take control again at will, that certainly seems to fall under the Constitutional definition of useful arts and the statutory definitions in 35 USC 101. Why do you think it doesn't?
It will never stand. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It will never stand. (Score:4, Interesting)
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But you do play idlerpg by NOT doing anything. So it's still an active choice from your side, so to speak :D
Um, prior art- Progress Quest (Score:4, Insightful)
--Coder
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Hey, what about "Progress Quest?"
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Somebody's butthurt.
You're certainly one to talk.
Though, personally, I'd have to say that FFXII was the first Final Fantasy game I've genuinely enjoyed since the SNES. Don't like gambits? Me neither. That's why you don't use them.
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I always asked myself, what would it be like if they made a game I could play well while doing 10 other things? Well, they did it, and it's not very fun, not to mention that the characters are 100% interchangeable it almost seems li
Progress Quest! (Score:5, Informative)
Or, at least, Progress Quest with the addition of an option to play it. Frankly, I don't see why adding an option to play a game is defensibly patentable. I mean, I could choose not to play it without any special technology at all!
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Reminds me of how a guy I know played Dune II.
Towers and those free artreides helicopters :D
Just spamming copters all the time.
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These conceptual patents give me the creeps - there's no huge innovation here at all.
itself (Score:2, Funny)
Prior art! (Score:4, Funny)
I'm fairly sure IBM already patented patenting ideas patenting itself.
Sounds like a tool assisted speed run.... (Score:2)
For years people have been programming entire play-throughs of games using programmable inputs on emulators.
This is the same concept, you input an exact sequence of events for the controller, that will exactly complete a part of the game, or the entire game if you want. But instead of the tool-assisted-speed-run community doing it, it is the developers themselves this time.
It is very very complicated to program input commands for a game and doing a run through of an entire game is incredibly laborious. You
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A full TAS is hard because it needs to be optimized for time, a walkthrough helper wouldn't need to shave off frames and such, just use savestates to avoid taking hits/failing.
An advantage of this helper over GameFAQs is that you can use it directly to skip parts if you just cannot do it. A regular walkthrough can only tell you what to do, if you're not good enough to actually do it that's of no use to you.
A side effect could be that this allows games to get harder again because there's no need to worry abo
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Games initially had no end and were solely exercises in getting a high score. This was eventually replaced by the "reach the ending" model of gaming that you're refer
And when the console gets bored? (Score:5, Funny)
Or finds the game too difficult?
I don't want to come home and find my Wii browsing for tech-porn.
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A problem Man had never seen as yet.
Angband prior art (Score:3, Informative)
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IIRC Angband bots did that.
And they still do. The Angband borg and screensaver is available at http://itctel.com/~apwhite/andrew.html [itctel.com]
another example (Score:2)
Is the autopilot in BZFlag, if you need to do a quick break you turn on autopilot and your tank goes merrily along and then you can turn it off and continue.
If they wanna impress me... (Score:2)
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How about a Wii that finds you a girlfriend ?-) It might be more relevant...
...now that I think of it, a dating service based around game-playing girls and the games they play might actually work. It's a common hobby, after all, and tying it into the online aspect of Wii would help keep the grievers out, since you'd need to buy a new console to re-register if you're banned. Plus, as I noted above, this is a demographic which might actual
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You didn't see that USB powered sex toy? Because I'm sure that could be adapted to the WII.
Life Imitates Art (Score:4, Funny)
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/7/new-from-squareenix/ [penny-arcade.com]
Enough said
You knew it was coming.... (Score:2)
In Soviet Russia, games plays without YOU.
Even Ascendancy did this (Score:1)
If you use the ANTAGonizer patch and maybe before that, hitting M in the planet management screen will automate planet management.
Also, if you place a certain file into the base directory of it, the entire game will play itself.
The idea is obvious what is hard is to do it for a specific game.
For example, in Master Orion 2 you could choose to automate ship battles, although the automation sucked.
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Most 4X games these days seem to allow you to more-or-less automate planet development. It does tend to get rather tedious building a new set of factories on every single new planet you colonize. Also, I seem to recall Caesar 2 allowing for automated battles as well, and I swear it worked far better than in MoO2.
More importantly, now I know I'm not the only one who ever played Ascendancy! That game was great back in '95 or whenever.
I did that years ago (Score:2)
A long time ago (we're talkin' 1987 or so here), I wrote a Klondike solitaire game for the PC (CGA, whoo hoo). One of the controls was to toggle auto-play on/off. When enabled, the game would play for you (according to some algorithm I made up[1]). There was even a speed control too, so you could slow it down to see it doing its stuff, or speed up, to the point of having it finish off the game in a flash. It would even quit the game when it saw there were no further possible moves.
Prior to that, I had a
Once again, Barney showed us the way (Score:5, Interesting)
Years ago when I was a game tester at Sega, there was a guy in the next cubicle who was unfortunate enough to be stuck with "Barney's Hide and Seek".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney's_Hide_and_Seek [wikipedia.org] Though he could generally be heard to be muttering "kill me" over and over to himself, he had the advantage over the rest of us because whenever he wanted to pretend like he was working, all he had to do was slump in his chair with his controller held limply in his hands, doze off, and yes, the game would play itself. The idea,evidently, was that kids of a certain age wouldn't have the attention span or skills necessary to help Barney do whatever it is he does, and so an auto-pilot feature would kick in if you stalled long enough.
And in other news... (Score:3, Funny)
The New York Times Files Patent for Newspaper that Reads Itself and then Complains to Self about it's Left-wing Bias.
Internet Forum Trolls File Patent for Web Browser that Rick Roll's Itself.
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Internet Forum Trolls File Patent for Web Browser that Rick Roll's Itself.
Too late. That one's mine:
"A method of hyperlink substitution, whereby the seemingly intended URL is replaced with that of a cheesy 1980's music video."
Cease and desist or that'll be $1 billion, kthx.
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Internet Forum Trolls File Patent for Web Browser that Rick Roll's Itself.
Prior Art: RollTube [fffff.at] Firefox extension.
Rog-o-matic? (Score:3, Informative)
Mauldin et al., ROG-O-MATIC: A Belligerent Expert System [princeton.edu], Fifth Biennial Conference of the Canadian Society for Computational Studies of Intelligence, London Ontario, May 16, 1984.
Rogue [wikipedia.org] had a storyline in it - okay, not exactly a really complex one, but a storyline nonetheless... and this thing plays it automatically, in case people don't want to play it themselves! Yup, people have been making self-playing games since forever.
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Mauldin et al., ROG-O-MATIC: A Belligerent Expert System [princeton.edu], Fifth Biennial Conference of the Canadian Society for Computational Studies of Intelligence, London Ontario, May 16, 1984.
Rogue [wikipedia.org] had a storyline in it - okay, not exactly a really complex one, but a storyline nonetheless... and this thing plays it automatically, in case people don't want to play it themselves! Yup, people have been making self-playing games since forever.
But ROG-O-MATIC plays Rogue automatically... even if you do want to play it yourself. There's no ability to place your hands on the keyboard and take control for an hour, then remove your hands and let the bot take over again. Self-playing games isn't the point - it's an assisting game, such that you can play until you get stuck, let the game take over until you're past the particularly difficult platform jump, then take control again for the boss fight.
I'm target audience (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a casual gamer. Nowhere near hardcore. Partly because of lack of interest, partly because I dont have time to become a good paddle jockey.
One example of a game where I would have liked this feature is Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii. I absolutely loved this game for the puzzles and roaming around and then suddenly, you're confronted with sudden harsh treatment for a grinding session that only looks and feels like that: a grinding session. Typically, the "scene's boss".
While I managed to finish the game, there are a couple of ones that I basically turned off the game after a couple of attempts. It made me feel like it was keeping me away from the game. A passage of rights that didn't have much purpose on *my* gameplay.
Now I know this might very well be due to this particular game itself but the pattern is throughout the game industry, and that's what turning off some prospective players.
While bot-supported games is nothing new, the fashion in wich this patent attempts to use them is an interesting idea.
In my view however, it's not worthy of a patent in itself. Games should always have been like this, with some kind of "assist me here" option/widget to get people (with a life) moving on with the game.
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Imagine that Metriod Prime 3 had had an auto-play feature. It would get you past the grinds, but it would also get you past the puzzles (after all what you call a grind might be the part someone else loves). The only thing keeping you from using it on the puzzle parts is your own judgment. This puts you in the situation of always having to choose whether a part or puzzle is "too hard" and to use the auto-player. But at the same time conquering something that is "too hard" is an important aspect of fun.
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But at the same time conquering something that is "too hard" is an important aspect of fun.
No, it is the primary component of frustration, which is never fun. Certain very difficult endeavors in real life are edifying or vindicatory, but it is the rare individual who describes them as entertaining.
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Read "A Theory of Fun for Game Design".
A load of Bollocks ... Super Bollocks (Score:2)
I, for one, need to earn something while playing the game. Be it experience, skill or sheer amusement. The best games, that I remember most vividly, where those that tortured my brain and my hands. That made me swear and hate the enemies. The one that gave me a sense of "I fuck
Read the summary for cricket's sake (Score:3, Informative)
Unless they give me some incentive (added bonus, extra trophies, seperate ending) this will be a kick in the face for all hardcore gamers.
Read the summary for cricket's sake. You can't save your progress if you turn on autopilot.
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Read the summary for cricket's sake. You can't save your progress if you turn on autopilot.
So what you'll still be able to see all the levels, beat all the monsters and witness the ending. Who cares if you can't save? You don't have to save because you won't die or pause.
Prior art - Rogue-o-matic (Score:1, Redundant)
First there was Rogue - a character graphic adventure game. Then there was Rogue-o-matic [wikipedia.org]. I think there was also a variant called AutoRogue.
How about that 80's tic tac toe game that could be (Score:2)
How about that 80's tic tac toe game that could be set to number of players zero and Global Thermal Nuclear War game that you had to dial in to play and it would take over playing for you if you got cut off.
WarGames (Score:2)
The WOPR doesn't count as prior art?
Only Semi-useful to Gamers w/o other options. (Score:1)
Stepmania? (Score:1)
...never mind that it has no cut scenes or plot because it's just a DDR clone, but this feature sounds just like what Nintendo's patent describes.
PRIOR ART (Score:2)
Exosquad for the Sega Genesis worked almost EXACTLY in this fashion, but not from complete start to finish.
Prior Art: Ultima Online (Score:3, Insightful)
That lasted about two hours for me. I determined that a game that needs such an app to be fun has a highly flawed design.
This game exists already on the Playstation 3 (Score:1)
It's called Metal Gear Solid 4
Mario (Score:1)
Doesn't Mario Galaxy do this already. when I go to the toilet Mario starts scratching his arse and i don't have to push any buttons. Or does he go to sleep, mhh can't remember.
Space Channel 5 does this - prior art. (Score:3, Interesting)
This is exactly what Space Channel 5 does... Hit a combination of keys on the controller to activate it and the game plays itself. You can switch in and out of the game.
My kids were amazed at my beat-memory skills as I flawlessly played this game through to the end before I showed them the trick.
Now sometimes they load it up and activate it just for amusement although they also like playing it too.
GrpA
Point of Law??? (Score:2)
Would masturbation be considered prior art???
No Save? (Score:2)
"But when played this way, gamers would not be able to save their progress".
Wait, I'm confused. Most games nowadays take anwhere from 5-200 hours to complete. If you can't save your progress when you play with this feature, how is this at all useful? It becomes little more than a demo to show you the first bit of the game, something games had in 1980 (if you didn't start the game, most games used to go into demo loops which would show you what the game was like).
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I did not RTFM, but if the other responses in this thread have actually given me an idea of how this would work, it could be potentially useful in this case:
1) I save my game in progress
2) I get to a part where I'm stuck and am frustrated
3) I turn on autopilot and get past this hard part
4) I restore the game from step 1, and now am able to get past the frustration point.
It sort of seems like a way to avoid going to gamefaqs.com. I wish that a lot of games had varying amounts of 'hints'. Even in mostly _si
Not new... (Score:2)
Game Arts did this as far back as the Lunar games on Sega-CD, you could choose "Auto", and all characters would continue going until the end of the turn. The Shin Miegami series took this a step further with Persona 3 where the characters just kept going until told to do otherwise. Namco's "Tales of" series has multipul characters, in which any player can step in, at any time, and play as. When not activated, the characters just start playing themselves. I can theoretically setup all 4 characters to play on
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They typically get dismissed as non-games, or as Nintendo abandoning the hardcore gamer, where 'hardcore' is defined as 'FPS'.
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Indeed, one of the things that I've noticed is that hardcore gamer isn't something that Nintendo ever really aspired to. Not that they should because the so called "hardcore" gamers make up a much smaller portion of the pie than more casual ones.
Look at the older games and only a relatively small number could be reasonably defined as for hardcore gaming. And usually it was because you really needed to have a hint guide to finish them or were ridiculously designed. Karate kid, I'm looking at you.
FPSes suck o
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FPSes suck on a console, they just suck, the controls are terrible and ultimately very little can change that. A keyboard and mouse is a much better choice for that sort of gaming.
But how do you plan to fit four keyboards and four mice around a single TV in a social gaming scenario?
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PC gaming costs twice as much (Score:2)
But how do you plan to fit four keyboards and four mice around a single TV in a social gaming scenario?
get four monitors and computers plus associated bits and pieces
Good luck getting budget approval for that. A lot of families can justify a $300 console + $600 32" monitor + $150 extra controllers + $50 each for 3 games, but not $1600 for four PCs including keyboards and mice + $800 for four monitors and sets of speakers + $160 each for 4-packs of 3 games. For now, I work around the problem by shying away from the M-rated shooters and putting on the Smash Bros.
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From where I'm standing, your problem is you're paying way too much for every step of the process. low level PCs are virtually free(I've been given two in the past couple months, just because people didn't want them anymore). CRT monitors are being virtually given away (or literally given away -- I've got three). Games are being literally given away, as long as you know where to look.