Casinos Warn iPhone Card-Counting App is Illegal 462
An anonymous reader writes "Gaming commissions in Nevada are informing casinos that a new card counting program has made its way to the Apple iPhone, called Hi Lo. This program can be used in the Stealth Mode. When the program is used in the Stealth Mode the screen of the phone will remain shut off, and as long as the user knows where the keys are located the program can be run effortlessly without detection. Randall Sayre, of the Nevada Gaming Commission says 'Use of this type of program or possession of a device with this type of program on it (with the intent to use it), in a licensed gaming establishment, is a violation of NRS 465.075.'"
awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Insightful)
Card counting on your own, isn't that hard. Sure, it takes a bit of practice, but, it isn't rocket science.
I played with it awhile...I just made sure I first memorized basic strategy....the set play for everything based on your cards vs the dealer.
Once you get that down like 2nd nature...you start going with the +1 -1 for the low and high cards showing up on the table...divide the count by number of decks used to that point..etc.
Not rocket science, but, it does take some practice.
Even if you were using this iPhone app...you'd still have to have basic strategy memorized.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
Well, the reason is speed, accuracy and memory. Mechanical devices used for card counting have been banned for quite a while, this is more of a notification that the iPhones have an app to do it.
When people are doing it in their head, there are strategies in place to cope with that. Usually the dealer will have things that he's allowed to do and in the worst case the pit boss will come over and talk up the player.
I'm not sure that the iPhone is specifically a problem, but it is within the category of cheating devices when used for card counting.
But it is also worth while pointing out that Black Jack isn't a game that any sane casino would offer if they weren't able to make card counting difficult. It's just not profitable, mainly they offer it as a sort of favor to the clients.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
When people are doing it in their head, there are strategies in place to cope with that. Usually the dealer will have things that he's allowed to do and in the worst case the pit boss will come over and talk up the player.
Yeah, they will do all sorts of things to make you distracted. I stayed at the Flamingo, and some of the $15 black jack tables had pole dancers in the middle of the tables! I stayed away until after they were done for the night, and when the free drinks come around I got myself a bottle of water.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like you missed out and some of the fun... Pole Dancers and 'free' drinks sound liek a nice way to spend an evening...
And to lose a lot of money.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
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hmm.... let's see.
Hookers? You get more action from them than a tease from a pole dancer.
Food? Better buy than pole dancer time.
Umm.. maybe spend more money gambling, and less on bimbos who won't put out?
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Funny)
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.
1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.
REF: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-465.html [state.nv.us]
I live about 90 minutes from Las Vegas and I can tell you the state of Nevada is serious as a heart attack about cheating. There are repeat offenders serving LIFE without parole for creating and distributing cheating devices and schemes.
Counting cards in your head is not illegal, but if you do master the art of counting cards without being detected, you can be refused entry at the whim of the casino, just because you are too good at the game... They can walk up and ask you to leave and never return and you must do so. They can also put you face, vital statistics, and biometrics (for facial recognition) in a database shared with other casinos.
Enjoy your stay
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Yeah, but you lose money at Disney. (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's the thing. If you are going to a casino to get money, you are kinda missing the point. The whole essence of the casino is sin, getting the drinks and the hookers and the whole nine yards of decadence and then a good steak, cigar, and a game of cards. That's a man's way to do things.
I mean, you could go to Disney and blow a few hundred bucks on Dumbo balloons... or you could go to Vegas, and gamble, get hammered and get laid. Hmmm, if you are going to blow money, why not blow it something cool. Believe me, once you get married, the gambling, cards, drinking are all going to go away.
The only thing that sucks about so many casinos and bars is that you can't smoke at them. What a stupid thing. A bunch of people whining about second hand smoke and then they all drive home drunk. It's just stupid. Quit being such a pussy about cancer, and smoke up.
Odd (Score:4, Interesting)
I looked at the pole dancers and boozed up, loosing maybe $20.
Obviously you are smarter then I am.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
some of the $15 black jack tables had pole dancers in the middle of the tables!...free drinks
In fact, forget the... wait, which one of these can I do without?
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Funny)
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Funny)
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
You're forgetting one very important place in a casino where it is possible to consistently win if you're good - the poker tables.
There you aren't playing against the house. You're playing against other players, and the house doesn't care how much you win because they get a cut of every hand. For a casino, poker is essentially free money with no real risk. For a player, it's a game with much better odds than ones you play against the house if you know what you're doing.
Just be sure to go during the day when the resident sharks are asleep (they only tend to come out at night). There's still plenty of action, and a much better chance of leaving with more money than you walked in with.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean cheat.
No, cheating conducted by the house, not an individual employee cheating to enrich himself, but actual cheating by the casino at a card game is very rare. I've worked in a casino (riverboat in Iowa) and gambled at almost every casino in the Midwest, and have only seen or heard of real casino cheating once. That was at a tribal casino in South Dakota. They were caught removing cards from a blackjack deck.
To prevent this, and assure the gamblers that the cards are all there, most casinos have implemented a strict procedure for introducing new cards in play. First, the factory sealed decks are brought to the table by pit personnel. They are opened by the pit, but the cards are removed from the box by the dealer. The cards are then spread out on the table, face down, to check for imperfections on the backs. Then they are flipped face up and counted. All cards must be accounted for before the deck is put into play. The same process is repeated for all decks coming into play. When it is time to change those cards for a new deck, the same procedure is followed in reverse. The cards are inspected to assure they are all still present, re-boxed, and set aside for possible further inspection. This is all done in front of the gamblers, who could easily spot missing or duplicate cards. They take this very seriously.
It's rare because they already have a statistical edge against the player; they don't need to cheat. They also need to make sure that the gambling public doesn't associate their establishment with cheating, and stop patronizing them. Then they wouldn't make any money. A casino jealously guards its reputation.
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Sounds like someone really sucks at gambling, to me.
For the record, aside from one time, I've never left a casino with less money than when I arrived. Sure, maybe it wasn't a jackpot, but I still came away with a profit AND had a good time.
Maybe your tinfoil hat gets in the way of your gambling ability, or your ability to enjoy frivolous things.
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It is incorrect to believe that every gambling game is entirely random. There are some *variables* that are random with most games, but it is not true that every gambling game (there are some) is wholly random. That's why card counting is a "problem" for the house, for example.
You seem very passionate about this particular topic. You should get that looked at.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
The other 100,000+ times they were cheating, but not caught I don't believe for a second those machines and wheels are not wired for independent control.
Believe what you want. It doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. I understand how people can think that slots are rigged, the internals of the machine are hidden and complex. But a game like blackjack takes place in full view of the gambler. In roulette, a "fixed" wheel would be spotted relatively quickly by the gamblers. Have you ever seen "system" players at roulette recording the result of every spin? They would see and exploit any irregularity or pattern. If you think craps is being played with loaded dice, bet on the Don't Pass line.
They don't have to cheat. They have the odds on their side. All cheating would do is raise the risk to the casino. It would only take one mistake by any one of the dozens of employees involved in the scam to unravel the entire scheme.
And of course if you do start winning, then they immediately assume you are a cheat and kick you out. Even if you were doing nothing wrong.
That is simply untrue. Casinos want some winners. They want people to win tens of thousands of dollars; because, at the same time, there are more gamblers watching the winner, betting more, and losing. A winning gambler is a casino's best advertising.
Each employee you come into contact with at a casino wants you to win, from the cocktail waitress, to the dealer, to the guy working in the cage. Winners tip. Winners tip well. I've payed out massive amounts of money to winners, and did it with a smile on my face every time.
I have never once seen anyone thrown out of a casino for winning. I have never been thrown out of a casino for winning, and I have had some large wins (I'm not a great gambler, but if you play a lot, you'll win sometimes). Most people thrown out of casinos are drunk and belligerent.
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There is one cheat that is more-or-less undetectable, and that is for the house to maintain its own count as the game is played. This should be pretty easy since there are multiple cameras on every table. When the deck is overly favorable to the player they can simply force a reshuffle/change of decks.
This is a feasible way for the casino to assure they always have the edge. But, unless there is some reason to think there is a counter at the table, they lose more money from pausing the play. Casino blackjack's profitability is all about the number of hands played per hour. Start reshuffling every time the count gets high, and you'll reduce the hands per hour, which means less profit per hour. And, you'll start pissing off the gamblers.
It's not that what you're proposing won't work. It's just that it woul
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Even if you were using this iPhone app...you'd still have to have basic strategy memorized.
While I have the most "basic strategy" memorized, there's variations based on if the dealer hits or stands on soft 17, if black jack pays out 3/2 or 6/5, etc. I practiced using Sega Casino on my Nintendo DS. When I was in Vegas last year, I was happy to find some $5 tables at the Hilton where my convention was, and the dealer told me that you could use the basic strategy cards openly if you wanted to.
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Come up with an app. tha
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A casino will notice you winning no matter how you do it. Since you are on private property, they can ask you to leave. If you don't leave, you are trespassing.
Have you ever even entered a casino? They LOVE when you win. The more you win, the more comps they shower you with. Having a winner at a table entices all the suckers around them to play and lose. It's the best advertising there is!
/.) because it requires wild (and obvious) swings in betting.
Card counting has become almost impossible (despite the liars here who claim to do it -- as though wealthy card cheats spend their free time on
Add to that 10+ deck shuffles (every dozen or so hands) and a ban on en
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Insightful)
Umm I am not sure you understand how Blackjack works -- the dealer can't 'counter' basic strategy, since they do not have a choice about which action to take, and you are only playing against the dealer -- the way the other players play has no effect on your odds of winning. The reason casinos don't mind if you use basic strategy is that even using basic strategy, a player will still win less than 50 percent of the time. Basic strategy is something that should ALWAYS be used, and cannot be countered.. you will just still lose money (although not quite as fast) as you would otherwise (unless you count cards as well).
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
WRONG. If another player is playing poorly, he is affecting how the cards come out of the deck. For instance, if another player "hits" on a 20, and takes the Jack that would have (should have) accompanied your Ace, he has most definitely played in a way that affect your odds of winning.
In fact, most blackjack players are expecting you to play the "basic strategy" and will get miffed if you don't.
Before saying in all caps that someone is wrong, you should know what you are talking about. It works out to be the same. In your example, he could have easily have hit another card which allowed you to get your Jack on your turn.
Looking at it another way, the chances of the Jack being at the top of the deck vs. the card underneath it is exactly the same.
I get really annoyed at people who blame others at the table for their losses, saying they shouldn't have hit yadayada. It even happens when you follow basic strategy, they complain when you hit on 16. They only remember the situations where that causes them to lose the hand when they shouldn't have vs. when it made them win the hand.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Informative)
Thank you for explaining to this poor guy how basic odds work, I am not sure I could have responded with the same tact.. I also get quite annoyed at this basic misunderstanding of how probability works. An unknown card is an unknown card - by definition of a randomly shuffled deck, each unknown card has an equal chance of being at every position in the deck. In fact the only argument that you could logically make is that a poor player sitting next to you (someone who hits on cards they should stay on) will actually HELP you, because you will see more cards per hand and can therefore COUNT more cards per hand and increase the likelihood that you will encounter favorable deck conditions before you run out of cards. (although at the same time, you might want the loose player to stop taking so many cards once the deck does shift in your favor).
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:4, Informative)
To be fair, it is possible for one player's decisions to affect another's returns. If a player tended to hit more often with a good count, then he'd make periods of positive count shorter for the other players, which would hurt their expected return. Of course, that wouldn't be bad play; in fact, in some marginal cases it makes sense to hit on a high count when basic strategy says to fold, so it could be unusually good play.
That said, unless a player is specifically changing his betting strategy based on count, you're completely right that his effect on other players' expected returns should average out to nothing.
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http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/articles/8863.html [casinocitytimes.com]
Not the greatest source, but it explains how this is a myth. Yes, a poor player can affect your odds on one hand, but it works both ways. Most blackjack players get miffed, not because you are affecting their hand, but because you are being an idiot.
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WRONG. If another player is playing poorly, he is affecting how the cards come out of the deck. For instance, if another player "hits" on a 20, and takes the Jack that would have (should have) accompanied your Ace, he has most definitely played in a way that affect your odds of winning.
Actually, this helps you on average, since you have slightly more information about the composition of the remaining cards in the deck if your neighbor hits.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
Why use the iPhone....?
Card counting on your own, isn't that hard. Sure, it takes a bit of practice, but, it isn't rocket science.
No, standard Hi/Lo counting is pretty easy. Most people can even keep a separate Ace count too. All it takes is practice.
But the power of computer-aided counting is that it can keep track of each card's specific value. Instead of keeping track of only the relative number of high cards played, a computer can keep track of the number of 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's, etc. A computer can process and use every piece of information known about the remaining cards, not just the ratio of high cards to low. It can make the perfect playing and betting decisions every time.
Someone who is using a computer to count cards, therefore has a greater theoretical edge against the house. Or, he can get the same edge as a traditional counter, without having to vary his bets as much. That's the real power of computer-aided counting: less detectability. (Assuming, of course, he's not fiddling with his iPhone on the table the whole time.)
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Because it's not too hard to throw out the few people who bother to learn to count cards well themselves. Those people might even be a benefit (for a while) because a winner tends to get other people playing.
It's a real pain to detect and throw out every idiot who can download an iPhone app.
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The question isn't really whether the casinos need sympathy.
The question is, realistically what would happen if casinos actually allowed the odds of any game to be tilted in the players' favor?
Answer: People would flock to that game, the casinos would lose money, and there would be no more casinos. Some people think that would be a good thing; are you surprised that the casino operators are not among them?
Of course, counting cards in your head is legal. For this reason, casinos will always have to do thei
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Interesting)
Also funny how no one who works in a casino has ever heard of such a hand stamp.
Also funny how the casinos use this super-secret ink that takes a whole week to wash off. And don't forget the needless details (common in every urban legend) such as "the orange pumice stuff".
When your friend got to his car, was there a hook hanging from the door handle?
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
When your friend got to his car, was there a hook hanging from the door handle?
Yes, and the tip of the hook was actually an AIDS-infected needle. It didn't matter though, when he drove the car he flicked his brights at someone who didn't have their headlights on; turned out it was a gang initiation so the guy in the car shot him.
Re:awww poor casinos (Score:5, Funny)
Nicky Santoro: A lot of holes in the desert, and a lot of problems are buried in those holes. But you gotta do it right. I mean, you gotta have the hole already dug before you show up with a package in the trunk. Otherwise, you're talking about a half-hour to forty-five minutes worth of digging. And who knows who's gonna come along in that time? Pretty soon, you gotta dig a few more holes. You could be there all fuckin' night.
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You know the rules going in.
The casinos promise not to cheat you.
You promise not to cheat the casinos.
The Gaming Commission is the referee.
You don't like it? Stay the fuck home.
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That'll only bring attention to the casino. Even if they have good lawyers, spending money fighting a lawsuit isn't as lucritive as spending money on more slot machines. It's much easier to send over a busty waitress with a free drink (distracting you enough to loose the count). Or do nothing. It's likely the big winner is attracting a lot of losers, and the casino will win out in the end.
So I trust that they are, to a point, a clean cut business, because it's in their best interest to be so.
Hi Lo? (Score:4, Funny)
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iManexcellentdriver
Re:Hi Lo? (Score:4, Informative)
If they'd have called it Rain Man, they're highly likely to incur the wrath of the MPAA for infringing the trademark of MGM/UA.
There. Fixed that for you.
How to use in stealth mode? (Score:3, Interesting)
If the screen is off its all well and good to input card appearances with it hidden in your pocket, but how do you get its current odds output? Vibration or something like that?
Re:How to use in stealth mode? (Score:5, Funny)
The iphone battery explodes when it's time to be all in.
Re:How to use in stealth mode? (Score:5, Funny)
Moot point. If you play with your hands in your pocket you will get busted.
Good advice for any occasion, not just gambling!
foot input, blue-tooth ear voice output (Score:2)
You could have the accumulating count trigger voice results at a significant threshhold and deliver these by blue tooth earplug.
Re:How to use in stealth mode? (Score:5, Funny)
Someone above mentioned blackjack tables with pole dancers, just head to one of those tables, they won't wonder why you're playing pocketed then.
Would this have widespread use? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Well, if you want to play blackjack...you avoid these tables like the plague!!
I've not been out there in a couple years or so...but, are you saying ALL the major casinos use the continuous shufflers only? I know they tried those at the Harrah's down here in NOLA, and they did not go over well. Most blackjack players..can't / don't count cards...but, using that machine took away the illusion they had that they could
Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:5, Interesting)
Continuous shufflers aren't as reliable about screwing things up as one might imagine. The basic problem is that you aren't guaranteed to hit those dead spots in the decks where most of the cards suck.
This is actually fairly important because it means that with the constraints on the dealer, it means that there's a relatively consistent number of 10 point cards left in the deck. And with the dealer being required to take a hit at any total less than 16 and depending upon the casino will uniformly take a hit or not on 17s.
And as such it changes the dynamics of what you take a hit on, knowing that the dealer has a card between 2 and 6 is more consistent than it is on a table where the decks aren't being shuffled as often.
Which is a long way of saying that while it does limit the traditional card counting, it does open up other conditions in a way which opens up other options.
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The bigger ones use card shuffling machines that I think continuously reshuffle the deck.
No. They will use several decks and do indeed have shufflers. But they do not reshuffle until the decks are exhausted. Continuous shuffling in pretty much any card game would be ludicrously bad form.
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Re:Would this have widespread use? (Score:4, Interesting)
There are several shufflers around - one is a "continuous shuffler" - basically a circular rake (or one on a belt) that can take cards that moves back and forth randomly. Dealer inserts cards at the top, and they get inserted into the rake one by one, and pulls cards from the bottom, whatever happens to be there. Another kind simply takes cards and shuffles them periodically.
But the usual trick is to simply shuffle after every round - the tables only have one deck in play (and a pre-shuffled deck standing ready to keep play fast). When the round ends, that old deck is tossed into the shuffler, and the new deck dealt. This completely screws up counting. Smaller casinos simply use less decks - turns out more decks in the shoe make card counting more successful.
Also, while card counting itself isn't illegal, using an aid is (mechanical, electronic, etc). But it's easy to spot card counters (the people monitoring the eyes in the sky can count cards too). Heck, I'm surprised they haven't equipped the tables with RFID readers and use cards with RFID in them so a computer at the table can maintain the count and watch the bets and point out potential card counters.
And Blackjack is one of the worst games for a casino - the odds are very low. They only carry it because it's popular. Someone doing basic strategy already has cut down the house advantage to less than half a percent - a very poor return. Card counting tips that into the player's favor.
Finally - do casinos allow cellphones to be used at tables? At best, this warning is just a heads up to people who'll use the application that aids to card counting is illegal, but I suppose if one was trying to learn, they could use it at home or in small groups.
The problem of communicating the count has remained though - but since card counting is a probability play anyways, communicating the rough hotness and coldness of the deck is sufficient.
In short, the iPhone app is nothing new - many people have done this in the past, often with more elaborate contraptions suitable for the lower level of technology in the day...
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The odds for Blackjack are very low if the player uses the basic strategy. That's an important distinction since most people don't bother to take the time to memorize basic strategy and don't want to feel foolish by either asking the dealer on hands they don't know or using one of the cards you can get in the gift shop. The vast majority of blackjack players make stupid mistakes and increase
CSMs are to save time. (Score:3, Insightful)
In the 'high roller'/VIP rooms you still see traditional shoes more often. The bigger players like them, both because it's more traditional, and because they at least operate under the illusion they have a better chance of winning.
Now, lowly players like me still would prefer a shoe, but the casinos know that CSMs make more money - *not* by preventing card counting (which isn't happening at the low tables anyway) but by simply cutting out the time it takes the dealer to shuffle. More hands per hour = more
Not only that, but detectable and stupid... (Score:4, Insightful)
Card counting really doesn't work that well in Vegas casinos unless you go with a distributed ring: its pretty obvious when an individual is card counting, if you miscount slightly the casino ends up winning big, and the casions can really mess you up, from shuffling more to "backrooming" you and intimidating the F-outta you.
But if they start suspecting this (which is easy, its just like detecting any other card counter, and then looking more fully at where you keep your hands), then they can not just backroom you, but through the legal process, make you WISH they'd just have settled for the old days when they'd have shoved your iPhone where the sun don't shine.
Re:Not only that, but detectable and stupid... (Score:5, Interesting)
They're not gonna backroom you like they did in the old days....they don't need to. They can just simply refuse your play, and if a problem, ban you from that casino, where if you do reenter, you are legally trespassing and they let the law deal with you.
There are ways to count, even as a single person with no team. There are plays that you 'can' make, which are usually very stupid, but, at times can be made and not really lessen your edge you get by counting properly. I was reading one awhile back that where in a strategy, you actually did at times split 10's....a generally stupid move, but, if done at certain times, sparingly, it would not mess with your edge badly, yet it would definitely throw off the casino watching you as a 'serious' counter. I'm sorry I don't have the book around to cite the source, but, it is out there.
Team play is definitely the best way to go, but, most casinos know that MOST people who think they can count cards...will mess up. So, unless you are making huge swings in bets with VERY high denominations of checks...you're likely not going to be harassed. They only really start looking at you if you start taking serious money from them.
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I was reading one awhile back that where in a strategy, you actually did at times split 10's....a generally stupid move, but, if done at certain times, sparingly, it would not mess with your edge badly, yet it would definitely throw off the casino watching you as a 'serious' counter. I'm sorry I don't have the book around to cite the source, but, it is out there.
You are probably thinking about Blackjack for Blood [amazon.com] by Bryce Carlson. It's a really good read and a good introduction to a level II counting system.
The rest of this post isn't directed toward you cayenne8, but seemed like a good of a place as any to put it.
At the end of the day, card counting wasn't very profitable for the level of effort it takes. While playing, a good card counter needs to do the following things:
You Watch Too Much TV (Score:5, Informative)
I was busted for card counting just 10 days ago in Vegas. The pit boss politely leaned over and said, "Sir, we are going to have to ask you to stop playing blackjack."
I said, "ok", cashed in my chips and that was that. I got to keep the $200 I won and didn't even get escorted off the premises.
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It would be a poorly managed casino that didn't ask you to leave long before your card-counting winnings were $200,000.
Cheers.
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"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
Ah, yes, Albert Einstein, the great statesman. Truly the one to turn to for theories of diplomacy, and not such paltry matters as physics.
Yes, because a man with such a brilliant mind for theoretical physics can't possibly have any insights into anything else.
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Really??? (Score:2)
And all those silly little electro-magnetic devices under the craps and roulette tables are legal???
Waiting (Score:2)
its pretty easy to see you using it (Score:2)
computer shadowing detects card counting (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipeadia mentions computer programs that track cards (by camera recognition) and bets (RFIDs in chips). The computer computes several of the popular counting schemes and compares that against actual play. Positive correlation with actual betting is suspicion of counting and grounds for expulsion.
Do you want to cheat at cards? (Score:5, Funny)
There's an app for that!
Blacklist (Score:3, Informative)
In extreme cases, they can add you to a blacklist that other casinos subscribe to. Enforcement of the blacklist starts getting into really impressive, and scary, Big-Brother stuff that governments could only dream of - automatic face recognition and tracking, cross-checking faces against the black list, logging time spent at such-and-such location (i.e., table), who happens to be around the person at the same time (to sniff out collaborative counting groups). Casinos can do it because they have lots of money and incentive to do so, plus they are working this stuff in a smaller environment that they design and control to the hilt.
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Hah, no, casinos love card counters. They even sell how-to books in the gift shop.
They don't want everyone to be a successful card counter of course, but they're perfectly happy to let you think you've got the chops to do it successfully. And to do that, they have to let a few successful ones slip through the cracks for a while.
Plagiarism (Score:5, Interesting)
Last paragraph:
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.[...]
Wikipedia article on Card Counting: [wikipedia.org]
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.'
C'mon TechFragments. If you copy a Wikipedia article, which you shouldn't be doing anyway, you need to give a link back to the article you copied from and give proper attribution to its authors.
Re:Plagiarism (Score:4, Funny)
Duh..... (Score:3, Informative)
Obviously, card-counting with a device, mechanical, electronic, or even a pencil and paper, is flagrantly illegal. Everybody knows this.
However, card-counting in your head is not.
*BUT* they can kick you out if they suspect you are counting cards in your head, or will use any number of methods to screw up your mental counting, such as distraction (hecklers, waitresses with great tits, etc. They use the same methods for dice controllers too.).
Keep in mind, if someone says "This table is too hot for you", then leave. Immediately.
Card Counters caught cheating with a device are handed over to the police (if they are lucky), your mugshot is taken by casino personnel, and you are placed into a Black Book database, and effectively banned from every casino with access to the database.
1983 - Computer beats Casino Roulette (Score:3, Interesting)
In the early 1980's, a group of Santa Cruz physics grad students built a set of computers into their cowboy boots. These timed the spinning of roulette wheels and applied Newtonian physics.
Thomas Bass wrote this up in the 1985 book, The Eudaemonic Pie, and caused the Nevada Gaming Commission to ban the use of these devices.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eudaemonic_Pie [wikipedia.org]
Re:This app is for those of us... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong:
The Nevada laws are friendly to the casinos, as they make Nevada a LOT of money.
Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:4, Insightful)
You mean it's unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, a brain?
Ah, well, no surprise there.
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Precisely. Thinking upsets the house odds :P.
Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:4, Insightful)
Counting cards is NOT illegal
Using a device to assist you in counting cards IS. Geico pointing out that drunk driving is illegal, but that doesn't mean that Geico is MAKING drunk driving illegal.
Further more, whoever submitted the post used a clever trick known as synonyms. Citing a violation of one of the many Nevada Revised Statues is the same as, gasp, warning that the app's usage IS ILLEGAL. Granted the headline could've included, "use of" instead of just the app name would be far more clear. But oh well.
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These types of things used to be obvious markers for trolls.
Sadly, Slashdot's anti-trolling efforts have both made the site less user friendly and resulted in a user base that falls for even the most thinly veiled efforts. Back in the inchfan days the parent wouldn't have even merited a link.
Re:slashdot sensationalism (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, counting cards is not illegal in any shape or form.
Counting cards WITHOUT THE ASSISTANCE OF DEVICES is legal. If you can do it in your head, signal to collaborating people what the conditions are, etc. you cannot be charged, but if you are discovered counting cards you can be escorted off the property, as is the right of the private establishment.
However, if you use ANY sort of device, be it mechanical or electronic--even so much as a pad of post-it notes and a pen, you are now not only going to be escorted off the property, you are actually breaking the law and are likely to be arrested.
sooo...you are actually quite wrong when you say counting cards IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM is legal, because it clearly is not--only UNASSISTED counting of cards is legal.
Incidentally, the rule also applies to any gambling activity on the casino, not just card games. Some video slot machines have been known to have a poor pseudo-random algorithm and there have been a couple of cases I know of where mathematically inclined people have noticed this and profited from it. In one case, the casino could not press charges because the person in question actually sat and watched the machine himself for many hours. In another case, a concealed photographic device was used to do the observing and that person was charged and convicted.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
From our almighty master Google:
NRS 465.075
Use of device for calculating probabilities. It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the gam
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But what kind of self-destructive Las Vegas judge would actually accept that argument and then step forward and set a precedent against the casinos. On one side, you've got some random shmuck who has obviously broken the law but has a semi-plausible excuse that, although although almost certainly false, could reasonably present some doubt as to his guilt. On the other side, you have the financial gods of the region who have in their possession the map that shows you where they've hidden your wife and kids
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Illegal to actually use it in the casino (Score:3, Interesting)
It's illegal to actually use it within the casinos. You can take your cell phone, even an iphone, into the casino. However, they have cameras with tape everywhere. If they catch you looking at your phone repeatedly, they will probably have probably cause to search your person. They can then try to get into your phone look to see if you have the app, and if you do they'll probably charge you right there. I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on a pin cracking software package so they don't have to
Re:From TFA (Score:4, Informative)
Both. According to the gaming laws in Nevada:
According to what you C&P'd, you can't read. It's legal to use it for your own game at your house, so it's legal to own. It's not legal to own it with the intent to use it to actually make money, and it's not legal to use it, either.
It is NOT illegal to own the software. It IS illegal to own the software if you intend to use it to defraud a casino.
The relevant standard in the US courts is "substantial non-infringing use".
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I have a fundamental problem with the phrase "defraud a casino". Isn't that like saying "rob a thief"?
No, not really or at all. You go to the casino, willingly, and put money down on a game of chance to win. The casino, by law, states the odds of you winning. You have a willing decision to make. Play or not play. A thief robs you, you have no chance to win, and you have no willing choice to make.
Casino's are a legitimate business model. If you don't like the odds then don't play the game.
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Re:I just don't see how it would work. (Score:5, Interesting)
iPhone has an accelerometer, I use a step counting app all the time, imagine the step counting app keeping track, an up kick with your foot is +1, a down kick is -1 and when the app senses the time is right to bet, it vibrates
and fuck the casinos, they can all burn
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What would you do as a dealer if someone always tapped something into their phone between BJ hands and varied their betting amounts?
Besides take their money? Nothing.
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...Or go and play poker, which is a different proposition altogether since you're playing against the other players at the table rather than the house.
Re:Illegal inside a casino (Score:4, Funny)
But... but... I live in Reno!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It actually wasn't illegal until 1985.
Previously they ahd the right to refuse you service.
Making it illegal probably came about becasue people who came to power in the industry don't actually understand the practicality of the industry. See RIAA.
You can count in your head, the law specifically talks about devices.
The casino does have the right to refuse service...however there not likely to care on any small wager.