Gamer Claims Identifying As a Lesbian Led To Xbox Live Ban 1182
Goatbert writes "I just read on the Consumerist about an XBOX Live user being banned for identifying herself as a lesbian. Despite appeals, Microsoft has stood by its position that merely mentioning that you are gay or lesbian is grounds for terminating your XBOX Live membership."
Fair is fair (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fair is fair (Score:5, Insightful)
Look. Here's how it is. Microsoft make it REALLY easy to join XBOX Live but virtually impossible to leave. This is just the most convenient way to leave.
It's like the way they charge to change your gamertag but if you ask several ppl to 'complain' that your gamertag is offensive, microsoft 'force' you to change it.
It's just ppl working around MBA-led bullshit.
Re:Fair is fair (Score:5, Interesting)
What about indirectly identifying yourself as something? I'm really confused here, since I have been playing Fable II for the last couple of days.
The whole game is LOADED with references to sexuality. You can have condoms, unprotected sex, extramarital sex.
Characters in the game are either straight, gay, lesbian, or Bi. Men can have sex with men, women can have sex with women, hell I have not tried yet, but I think I can have sex with the dog.
There is a whole quest, and scene in the game, where the father has to come to terms with the fact his farmer son is gay and just wants to live in the city. As part of the quest, you need to find him a date. Bring a man for extra points. There is even a point in the game where you can change your sex. A transexual dream to be sure :)
Fable II is an ONLINE experience too. Some parts of the game you cannot unlock unless you are playing with other players.
EVEN BETTER. Men can marry other Men. Not civil unions. Marriage.
So how does MS apply their policies to a game like this where just about everything around you is invitation to debauchery, lewd and depraved acts, lesbians getting it on with lesbians?
Please note, I am not complaining. I already had my 5th lesbian today in the game.
Re:Fair is fair (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, that's not the same. In the current cultural context, you are assumed to be straight.
I guess you are straight and that's why you didn't noticed. But being gay myself it is obvious to me that people always assumes I'm straight, it is obvious because I often find myself "coming out" to people. You'll think our sexual orientation is something that doesn't come up often, but actually it is. Maybe somebody tells you how hot Angelina Jolie is, or maybe asks you if you are married, or a coworker who invites you dinner and tells you that you can bring a girlfriend. Very small things that you don't even notice.
I really never found somebody who didn't make the "straight" assumption.
And that's why the headline says the problem was with somebody identifying as a lesbian. Do you really think nobody has ever identified as straight in Xbox Live? (example "I'm married" "I have a girlfriend" "I like blond chicks") Did you ever heard that was a problem?
Another common misconception is that saying you are gay is about sex. It is not. As an analogy, when you say you are married you are not saying "I'm banging a woman", even if you in fact have sex with your wife. In a similar way, saying gay is making a statement about who you are, your life experience, and in general where you come from.
Re:Fair is fair (Score:4, Informative)
Not in the US maybe ... but in say Canada they could get in real trouble with selective enforcement.
Re:Fair is fair (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Fair is fair (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fair is fair (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe she was banned because unlike the majority of the xbox live gamers, she might actually be able to get a girlfriend?
xbox live has terrible terms of service (Score:5, Interesting)
My name is "Spike"
xboxlive won't let me use that name in the "real name" field of my xboxlive profile. It says that it's a banned word.
Why could that be? I think it might be because it contains 'spik,' but even that seems ridiculous.
*shrug*
Re:xbox live has terrible terms of service (Score:5, Funny)
I think it's cause dogs aren't allowed to have xbox live accounts.
Re:xbox live has terrible terms of service (Score:5, Insightful)
For a real post, this article has insight Mr. Richard Gaywood gets banned [consumerist.com]
Re:xbox live has terrible terms of service (Score:5, Funny)
I think Dick van Dyke probably has more problems. But I'm also betting he's not big into the whole interwebs and online games thing.
Microsoft is gay (Score:5, Funny)
but do they ban themselves?
Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:5, Insightful)
... because they didn't want to see that crap or their kids to see that crap.
Whew, I couldn't agree more! Because it's been scientifically shown that exposures to gay people is what causes one to be gay. But why stop at targeting gays on the XBox? Did you know that your child might be befriending another kid in grade school and your child's friend may be gay and not yet know it? The only safe way out of this is to remove your kid from school--did you know that nearly 100% of homosexuals have gone through school? A frightening figure! You better find a conservative Christian school that teaches your child intolerance and how to properly ostracize and judge other people. That's the only way you can provide for them a pure and clean life.
And if the rest of us are lucky, we'll never have to interact with your kid.
This is not helping the already low low stereotype I have adopted of the users of XBox's online service.
Re:Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:5, Funny)
Good point, they are surely safe in catholic school!
Re:Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:5, Interesting)
The big thing such parents worry about is that their children are exposed to gays that are not horrible monsters and thus the kids start seeing them as regular people... which the parents are trying very hard to prevent. These parents do not want to risk their kids seeing gays as people.. they want to see them unquestioningly as sick pedophiles that are destroying society, inhuman evil monsters that can not be related to.
THAT is why they don't want their kids exposed to gays in enviorments like this where they might actually *gasp* get along with them.
Re:Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:5, Insightful)
Er no. These parents don't see homosexuals as monsters or anything like that. That's an absurd characterization, and its made so that you can, in turn, demonize the opposition. What they do feel is that homosexuality is immoral, and showing it in a "normal" light promotes the view that it is normal. This, in turn, encourages people to act on their homosexual urges. They are not worried that their kids will see homosexuals as normal people, but rather that they will cease to view homosexuality as immoral, and possibly be "recruited" as homosexuals.
An ignorant belief? You bet.
Bigoted? Yep.
Portraying homosexuals as monsters and pedophiles? No way.
Just because some people are bigoted asshats doesn't mean you should likewise engage in hyperbole to demonize them. Its counter-productive.
Re:Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:4, Insightful)
That actually kinda makes my point. If children are exposed to homosexuals in a way that does not portray them as immoral monsters then they start seeing them as normal people and not immoral people.
Condensed.. it is important to these parents that their kids continue to see homosexuals as inherently immoral people. It is also important to them that their own children be so scared of these immoralities that if they are gay themselves they will keep it nice and repressed out of fear of being monsters themselves.
Kinda sounds the same to me.
Re:Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:4, Insightful)
Viewing something as immoral is not the same as "[seeing] them unquestioningly as sick pedophiles that are destroying society, inhuman evil monsters that can not be related to." Sure, they want their kids to think its immoral so that they "don't become gay," but they don't consider homosexuals pedophiles or monsters.
You're projecting your own negative feelings towards Christians onto them. It seems to me that you are trying to paint them as malicious rather than ignorant, and portray them in such a negative light that you can justify hating them. The same thing that you accuse them of.
I spent my formative years around a lot of people who were fundamentalists and thought homosexuality was "wrong," but the message was always that they were sinners that needed to be saved and reformed, which is an ignorant point of view, but hardly what you are making it out to be.
Your efforts at hyperbole are pretty hypocritical. In writing your screeds about how they are unjustly trying to make homosexuals seem like "inhuman monsters," you are dehumanizing them by trying to assign very evil intentions that they do not harbor. What they are doing is not right, but neither is what you are doing, and its only going to alienate people that might have been allies.
Re:Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:5, Insightful)
How hard is it, really? Most boys fall in love with girls, and most girls fall in love with boys. Some boys, though, fall in love with other boys, and some girls with other girls. Done with no reference to sex, and at least to the level of understanding necessary by a nine year old. The sex part can be filled in later.
Re:Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:5, Insightful)
And do you have to explain how sex works to a nine-year-old every time they encounter a straight couple?
A simple "most boys want to marry girls, but some want to marry boys" will probably do the trick. It's about relationships, not body parts.
Re:Because Gay People Make You Gay (Score:5, Insightful)
they have the right to limit discussions that don't pertain to games
And I insist that they do! How dare anyone talk about anything but games. It's almost as if they think they're there to socialise or have a good time.
I was under the assumption (Score:5, Funny)
That identifying yourself as 'lesbian' online is secret code for "I'm a straight guy looking for girl love. Pew pew."
I'm skeptical (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I don't hang my hat on being straight - do you really need to point out that you're gay in your xbox profile? I mean... really? I don't think you should be banned for doing it, but I think it's a little odd.
Re:I'm skeptical (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, I don't hang my hat on being straight - do you really need to point out that you're gay in your xbox profile? I mean... really? I don't think you should be banned for doing it, but I think it's a little odd.
I run a guild in WoW, I myself am straight, but we have gay members in the guild. When ever we pick up someone new I make sure they are aware that there are gay men in the guild. Not because I'm trying to pimp them out (most of them are already married), but because people tend to be better about not tossing words like "fag" around or saying "that's gay" when they know that there are gay people around.
So yeah, I think it's perfectly acceptable to have someone post that they are homosexual on their profile. If it makes other people be a little more self conscious about how their words can come across and breaks the social norms of using homosexual terms as insults, then I think it's AWESOME.
-Rick
Huh...odd from Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
From the site:
It was one of the first companies in the world to offer employee benefits to same-sex domestic partners and to include sexual orientation in its corporate nondiscrimination policy. Since 1989, Microsoft has supported and sponsored gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender issues at Microsoft. In 1993 an organized employee resource groupâ"Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Employees at Microsoft (GLEAM)â"was launched. GLEAM now has more than 700 members.
The group even has it's own Wikipedia entry [wikipedia.org] (for what that's worth).
Re:Huh...odd from Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft's got lots of clubs, actually. Including an employee gun club, with a private discussion forum.
http://www.gcmsweb.org/ [gcmsweb.org]
I'm extremely pro-gun, but I am kind of amused at the thought that yes, Microsoft IS forming a militia and DOES intend to rule the world. :)
That's ok, myself and the guys at #kplug-militia are gun-toting Linux users and we've probably got enough firepower to take 'em on...
Call me crazy... (Score:4, Insightful)
So we have a blanket policy saying, no mentioning of sexual orientation in your profile or gamertag. Period. Because, while it's possible that such a mention in a gamertag/profile is a perfectly true, totally non-offensive statement about an individual's self-identified sexual orientation, the odds more strongly favor it being a nasty, hateful comment (or at best, a tasteless one).
If a given behavior has a 1% chance of being legitimate, and a 99% chance of being a TOS violation, doesn't a ban make sense? I'm not sure I'm willing to blame Microsoft for not wanting to go through thousands upon thousands of gamer profiles for approval on a case-by-case basis.
And yeah, why do you feel it's important to proclaim your sexual orientation on XBox live anyway?
Re:Call me crazy... (Score:5, Insightful)
And yeah, why do you feel it's important to proclaim your sexual orientation on XBox live anyway?
Straights proclaim it all the time just by talking about what they do and who they do it with, on Xbox Live, on WoW, on LOTR Online, at the 7-11 buying a Pepsi, shooting the breeze with the person sitting next to you on the bus. You don't have to even think about how you broadcast your sexual orientation, because it's so automatic.
Gays and lesbians, on the other hand, must make an effort not to broadcast our orientation, and we do it by self-censoring what we talk about. But if we slip up and mention something that implies our orientation, now we're "flaunting" our sexual orientation, even though we said something that, if it came from a straight person, would not have attracted any notice whatsoever.
Is there anything else I can help you with?
Re:Call me crazy... (Score:5, Insightful)
The practical solution, one employed by heterosexuals every day, is not to wear your sexuality on your sleeve.
You missed GP's point. Heterosexuals do wear their sexuality on their sleeves. It's not just assumed as a default, it's obvious by any conversation they have in which they mention a boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wide. It's obvious if they're wearing a wedding ring in a country/state that doesn't allow same-sex marraige.
GP's point was that all it takes is for a man to mention his girlfriend in public and you know he's straight, and no one will think anything of it. But if a man mentions his boyfriend in public, suddenly he's "flaunting his sexuality" and making everyone around him uncomfortable.
That's fucked up.
Re:Call me crazy... (Score:4, Insightful)
The best thing to do online is proclaim yourself a straight white male. That way if those guys who sit and watch the border crossing cameras for Mexicans crossing into the US find out your mexican, they won't start telling you go home and quite spending all thier tax money on the hundred illegitimate babies you have at home. Or maybe the follower os the extremely traditional catholics might find out that you are one of those devil worshipping protestants. And who knows what would happen if anyone found out that someone might be divorced and on their second marriage, why that might start a flame war on polygomy.
The reality is that people who are comfortable being in an exclusive environment like xBox live, or believe that such exclusive environments do no harm, will continue to do so. This is a significant portion of america, given the results of the last presidential election. Almost no one is going to turn in their xBox simply because MS supports bigoted behavior, any more than we would stop shopping at wal mart because we are concerned about the trade imbalance or stop buying meat becuase we are concerned about illegal immigration and the abuse of undocumented workers.
In the end those that wish to express themselves will go somewhere else, those that wish to attack other people will stay with xBox, and we will continue to have segregated communities that never talk to each other. Because, as has been said so many times in this post, why should i listen to someone who believes differently from me. I should have every right to taunt and slander such people if they have the audacity to think that I should be compelled to even associate with them.
Another issue with Live's automated ban system... (Score:5, Insightful)
Your playing a video game online with a group of pre-pubescent kids and teenagers who are granted nearly full anonymity without any fear of punishment, what did you expect?
Now, due to the vague explanation of what happened given in the article linked in the story, I'm going to make some assumptions here. I would assume that:
* Some kids on Xbox Live noticed that the gamer identified herself as lesbian.
* Due to ignorance, or just for the "lulz", kids decide to file fake complaints against the gamertag in question to get the account banned.
* Microsoft's fully-automated complaint system receives numerous reports from many people about the gamertag in question, and automatically bans the account.
This just goes to show what a failure Microsoft's disciplinary system is. Microsoft made these game consoles and FREE headsets available to kids and teenagers, as well as adults. So, with that many people using an online service, it's fairly obvious that SOMEONE will abuse the system, break rules, etc.
And yet, Microsoft decides to not only use a centralized network infrastructure for Xbox Live, rather than the infrastructure used by most online PC games, but they even made the disciplinary system fully automated. No human involvement. No one checks the validity of reports. No one is in the games to ban abusers. No way of even verifying weather or not a ban was justified or not when someone calls Microsoft's Tech Support. Such an easy thing to abuse.
By contrast, nearly all servers on PC games are administered properly. There's at least one admin on, admins ban the hackers, cheaters, racist/homophobic people, and maintain their server's rules. Nothing's automated. There's always human involvement.
I don't think Microsoft intentionally banned this person or refused to re-activate the account because the user is lesbian. Live's servers received compliments from a bunch of people, automated system bans the account, with no way of telling weather or not the compliments were legitimate or created fraudulently.
Microsoft seems to be ignoring the lesson here: You can't trust machines to babysit children.
Protecting children? (Score:5, Insightful)
"When children learn to devalue others, they can devalue anyone - including their parents." - Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Time for introductions (Score:5, Funny)
Pink Triangle, meet Red Ring of Death.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't ask, Don't tell.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:4, Funny)
INTERIOR: TATOOINE -- MOS EISLEY -- CANTINA.
The young adventurer and his two mechanical servants follow Ben Kenobi into the smoke-filled cantina. The murky, moldy den is filled with a startling array of weird and exotic alien creatures and monsters at the long metallic bar. At first the sight is horrifying. One-eyed, thousand-eyed, slimy, furry, scaly, tentacled, and clawed creatures huddle over drinks. Ben moves to an empty spot at the bar near a group of repulsive but human scum. A huge, rough-looking Bartender stops Luke and the robots.
BARTENDER
We don't serve their kind here!
Luke still recovering from the shock of seeing so many outlandish creatures, doesn't quite catch the bartender's drift.
LUKE
What?
BARTENDER
Your droids. They'll have to wait outside.
We don't want them here.
Luke looks at old Ben, who is busy talking to one of the Galactic pirates. He notices several of the gruesome creatures along the bar are giving him a very unfriendly glare.
Luke pats Threepio on the shoulder.
LUKE
Listen, why don't you wait out by the speeder. We don't want any trouble.
THREEPIO
I heartily agree with you sir.
Threepio and his stubby partner go outside and most of the creatures at the bar go back to their drinks.
Just because you don't get it, doesn't make it OT (Score:5, Funny)
Threepio is SO gay.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:4, Insightful)
I know the purpose (Score:5, Funny)
In this time of economic crisis, the inevitable ensuing flamewar can heat my house.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
The purpose is to find other gamer lesbians (a pretty small subculture) to hang out with, even if you aren't necessarily looking to hook up.
Why does anyone put anything in their profile? To find people with similar interests and backgrounds. It's not true of all lesbians, of course, but a lot of lesbians have things in common that they might not with non-lesbians and especially not with your typical xbox live player.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it's a good thing you don't go around mentioning your sexual orientation in public posts...
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Fact: When someone says "I don't want to hear about [a gay person's] sexual orientation" what they are really saying is "Stop breaking my comfortable assumption that everyone is straight".
Why have profiles at all? (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell me the purpose of having a profile, and I will tell you the purpose of putting "I like [whatever]" in that profile. But for gays and lesbians, the issue is slightly different. 'Coming out' [wikipedia.org] is an important part of the process of self discovery and self acceptance for such people. Yes, many go through a phase where they may be a little strident about it, but that is completely natural in a society with so much homophobia. If allowed to progress through the 'angry gay' stage, most will reach a stage where being gay is just another facet of their identity.
Re:Why have profiles at all? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why have profiles at all? (Score:5, Insightful)
Even further: what does "what's the purpose of ..." have to do with whether or not something should be allowed? There's no guarantee the GP would agree with whatever perfectly good reason we came up with for this -- it's easy to say "well, that doesn't make sense to me" and thus end the conversation, if you let them be the arbiter. Fine. Even things with no discernible purpose should be allowed by default. It's not a good basis for deciding the question.
Shouldn't I be allowed to take raw fish outside and hold it over my head for 5 minutes a day? It makes no sense to anyone else -- it doesn't make sense to me, either. But it's not causing harm to others, with the possible exception of haters of people who hold fish over their heads, and that's their own problem. Which is what this is.
The GP sees no purpose, and automatically jumps to the conclusion that it's a reasonable thing to ban -- which is exactly the logic we deal with every day in the US. Why are most consensual crimes, well, crimes? Why is it so hard to get people to agree with our constitution's guaranteed freedom of speech? It's like pulling teeth every time -- yes, I know, you see no good reason for this to be allowed, it could offend someone, someone could hurt themselves, it doesn't seem like it benefits anyone, that's not the direction I think our society should go, blah blah blah ... it's always the same fight. We need to eradicate that meme entirely, for a better society.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
And please stop with the whole gender thing. I don't care if you're a male.
And just shut up about what city you live in!
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should announcing your sexual orientation start a fight? The bad behavior is on the part of people who feel that it is ok to persecute someone for talking about their sexual orientation.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should announcing your sexual orientation start a fight? The bad behavior is on the part of people who feel that it is ok to persecute someone for talking about their sexual orientation.
Okay. I'm going to go down to the local lesbian bar (I used to drink there with some friends) and say, loudly but not unreasonably so, "I like to screw chicks!" Repeatedly.
Let's see how long it takes before the police show up. I'd be lucky if someone politely asked me to cut it out, because I'm a big guy, and I look dangerous.
It's all about context, dude. Look past your prejudices.
Furthermore, the article says "Teresa says that she was harassed by other players and later suspended..." What this is known as, in rules of evidence, is hearsay.
She is supposing, perhaps assuming, that Microsoft has banned her for that reason. Well guess what? I've had people say I hit them, in a crowd, when I didn't even touch them. There's no quoted email from Microsoft saying, "HI. WE ARE THE MICROSOFT AND WE BANNED U 4 THE GAY." There needs to be some evidence for this to be more than just Internet flotsam.
I'm sorry, but in the age of blogs and Internet truthiness, all of you gullible types are going to have to bone up on what is admissible evidence, because it's generally equal to what counts as credible evidence.
This sounds, barring actual evidence, very much like someone who has a chip on her shoulder about being a lesbian, assuming and projecting her own pathologies onto a corporation because they are unlikely to challenge her. Anyone who had any evidence at all could provide some kind of official correspondence, or at the very least, anyone with a clue could fake it.
This is just someone trolling. And you bit. So did Slashdot. Nuff said. Look past your prejudices.
--
Toro
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Funny)
Okay. I'm going to go down to the local lesbian bar (I used to drink there with some friends) and say, loudly but not unreasonably so, "I like to screw chicks!" Repeatedly.
At risk of being labeled as a troll or worse, I would think that at least half the patrons' first response would be an immediate: "...AND SO DO I!"
That aside, one would think that you would be thrown out for being a repetitive irritant long before you'd get pitched on philosophical/orientation grounds... much like nobody likes to talk to the little kid who always responds to everything you say with "...but why?"
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should announcing your sexual orientation start a fight? The bad behavior is on the part of people who feel that it is ok to persecute someone for talking about their sexual orientation.
It shouldn't. But announcing sexual orientation, much like announcing opinion on /., can be done in various troll/flamebait ways. Compare and contrast:
"Hi! My name is soandso and I'm a lesbian here in whereever, USA. My favorite games right now are Gears of War and Catan."
"Hi! My name is soandso and I'm an oppressed lesbian here in Redneck City (wherever), USA. Fuck Christians! I'm gay and fuck God if he hates fags. Christians are all closet fags anyway with priests molesting lol"
This story simply isn't complete without the full text of her profile.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:4, Insightful)
Common sense dude. Why assume something else was done when if that was indeed true, events would have transpired in a completely different manner.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess she should also avoid mentioning that she's a woman, since maybe 1 in a 100 people might think video games are no place for women and she shouldn't shove the fact that she's playing in their faces, right? I guess people who are bigoted little shits with thin skin should have their precious feelings coddled, right, or else they'll throw a tantrum and it'll be my fault.
Some people stamped their feet and howled and threatened to hold their breath until they got their way, and your solution is to spoil the brats further.
Honestly, your rhetoric sounds like that of many people I know who like to outwardly pretend they're tolerant but who are inwardly homophobic, and have decided to adpat the position "my problem isn't homosexuals, it is that they shove it in my face." Of course, by shove it in your face, you would be refering to the fact that they have the audacity to openly exist and wish to seek relationships with like minded consentual adults, something they can't do without mentioning the fact that they have no interest in persons with certain genital configurations.
If you have a problem with open, out sexuality then you are the one who has the problem. If your skin is so thin that people have to walk on eggshells around you, then you need to toughen up. I, for one, have no patience with that kind of person and have no tolerance left for the intolerant.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
and who is at fault? the ones causing all the trouble over it? or the one shoving it in their face while they'd rather just not know? imo both are just as wrong
If they didn't want to know about the person, they wouldn't be viewing their profile. If I asked you to tell me about yourself and you identify yourself as a Christian, is that shoving your religion in my face?
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Why confront bigotry and set clear rules against it, when you can just ignore the problem and maintain an environment where mentioning an alternative sexual orientation will get you harassed? Let us, as you say, do absolutely nothing about the problem, and hope that education will slowly convince them.
Wait, what education? I thought nothing would be done about it? Didn't you also just say that "they don't know they're wrong, and they never will?" Can you make up your mind?
I guess people should also just keep from attaching pictures of themselves to their profiles, in case whoever's watching might have something against their race.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Why confront bigotry and set clear rules against it, when you can just ignore the problem and maintain an environment where mentioning an alternative sexual orientation will get you harassed?
Because the potential number of bigoted customers you lose is higher than the potential number of harassed customers you lose. The easiest, cheapest, and most profitable model is simply do that the largest number of your potential customers want you to do, and hang the rest. To all that say "vote with your feet/dollars", this can be the result.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:4, Insightful)
There are enough minority people and a general social mentality that racism is bad (compare the small number of people that would actually make such comments) so that the trade-off is the other way. They would lose more than they would gain by allowing racist content.
Do note, I do not justify anything, but rather simply explain what I see as the real reason behind the policies or lack therof, i.e. profit. Piss off the fewest customers as possible for the largest revenue.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
XBox Live has strict rules against racism. Surely racism and homophobia draw on the same irrationalities, so why doesn't XBox Live have strict rules against homophobia? It doesn't matter what people think are right and wrong. You have the right to state your race on XBox Live, and people do not have the right to antagonise you for it. You should also have the right to state your sexuality on XBox Live, and people should not be allowed to antagonise you for it.
There's a time and place for everything, and XBox Live certainly is not the place for homophobia. It is, however, a place for casual conversation, whatever that may constitute. Including your sexual orientation.
My analogies are perfectly sound. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest that you explain yourself, rather than just saying so. You're stumbling over your own feet, contradicting yourself multiple times within the same post. It's definitely not my argument that needs improvement.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
I was kind of homophobic as a kid. It was only through exposure that I eventually realised I didn't give a fuck about someone's orientation. People's minds can and do change and it happens all the time. I watched some kids who were quite racist at school lose their racism when a black kid (it was a fairly white area) joined our school and it slowly dawned on these kids that when they made anti-black comments they were actually talking about one of their friends. Exposure is the way to reduce prejudice and it works all the time. But by your arguments Rosa Parks should have bloody well known her place and gone to the back of the bus. Same logic. Although this is to a far less degree. There's a profile section that says: "Tell us about yourself..." So she did. Shouldn't be her problem that some people don't like what she is. There's nothing offensive about being a lesbian, but that's what Microsoft are saying.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why announce it to begin with? ... gays/lesbians are looking to start fights ... a lot of minorities play that game.
As others have pointed out, it has nothing to do with starting fights and everything to do with expressing what is an integral part of your personal identity and choosing what kinds of online relationships you want to pursue.
In a similar vein, I'm curious what "game" it is that you feel minorities are playing? The "game" where they don't try to hide their identity and culture? The "game" where they expect to be treated fairly and equally with others in their workplace and community?
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
When Microsoft bans, say, people from writing "I am black" in their profile because it might start a fight with skinheads or "I am an evolutionary biologist" because it might start a fight with creationists is the day I'll consider this position toward gays and lesbians even remotely fair.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:4, Funny)
So you're a black, evolutionary biologist, are you? We don't tolerate your kind on Slashdot.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's just flat out wrong, on both counts. Maybe you'd be safe declaring your homosexuality in, say, the Castro district of San Francsico. But even in, say, Hunter's Point or China Basin in San Francisco, you would get your ass BEAT for doing that. Reverend Phelps, on the other hand, goes around to funerals of gays all over the US with his inbred clan and they hold up signs and chant things like, "God hates fags!" without being stopped. At FUNERALS.
You seem as though you are jealous of minorities for getting to play the victim card. You seem to want to play the victim card yourself, but you aren't really a victim, so you invent things that sound like, "I'm a victim because people don't agree with me about being a bigot." I'm guessing you are a member of the dominant culture and have never had to face any kind of serious prejudice.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:4, Insightful)
Equal rights means EQUAL rights, not "we just changed who can get away with what", dumbass.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:5, Funny)
When's the last time you recall anything good coming out of hollywood?
Two years ago [cbsnews.com], although sadly they put it out before it reached the rest of LA.
(j/k; I like SoCal... even LA ;) )
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
So, if she were to write in her profile that she had a husband, that'd be okay?
And if she were to write in her profile that she had a wife, that'd not be okay?
This is what's so wrong with people just saying "shut up about your sexual orientation". That's basically saying "Unlike everyone around you, you need to hide pretty much your entire life from everyone else." The fact that you see "I am gay" as equivalent to writing "Christians and Jews are the devil!" is incredibly offensive on so many levels.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:4, Insightful)
I say "Shut up about your sexual orientation" to everyone. Come on, ban everyone who says they're straight too!
I refused to state my sexual orientation on the grounds that I would annoy me if I did.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
That's actually not a bad idea. If they had to deal with a large number of profiles all proclaiming to be gay they'd have to rethink that policy.
Problem is, they shouldn't be allowed to discriminate like that in the first damn place. I am straight myself, but this is the 21st century already. Almost everybody would be on her side if this happened because she mentioned that her boyfriend was black. When the hell is it going to recognized as a basic human right to be with anyone you want as long as that person is a consenting adult? It's way past time to get rid of this Bible-thumping, repressed Victorian crap.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
That's actually not a bad idea.
Well, that depends on which end of the ban-hammer you're at, and whether or not your account is paid for.
I'm sure that M$ will be quite happy to kill a few thousand accounts and laugh all the way to the bank for people violating their TOS.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
It's wrong to ban someone just because they put "I'm a lesbian" in their profile, but I can see banning someone who is constantly forcing this on other people (like the type of person above) because that other person is irritating others with it. I have also met a man hating lesbian stereo-type, someone who might go on a game and start slagging off men in a fashion no better than trolls should be treated as a troll, regardless if their topic is about computers, cars, tv, music, sexual orientation, race or religion.
Your reaction is precisely what has gone wrong with our overly PC western society, the American "Don't ask, don't tell policy" is wrong as it forces people to hide an important part of their life that they shouldn't have to. But going to the other extreme and hiding behind that reason is far more annoying to those around you, my motorcycle is highly important to me and a fundamental part of who I am but I don't introduce myself as "I'm Steve the motorcyclist". Nor do I feel the need to troll about cars. If I did most people would consider me strange (at best) and irritating at worse. In this case unless Microsoft profiles include a sexual orientation section you have to ask why anyone would care and why a person would feel the need to put the information in there, I certainly don't feel the need to write "Straight" in my online profiles.
Reading the blog it seems (from knowing only her side) that other player's homophobia has caused this issue and she really is a victim. The fact Microsoft has come down on the homophobes side is very worrying and some sort of action needs to start to get this corrected. She deserves an apology from Microsoft and the people who have been attacking her need to be banned.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Funny)
I think you've missed the GP's point. I've met a number of (admittedly teenage) lesbians (and a couple of gay men) who seem to treat their sexual orientation as their primary defining personality feature
As opposed to your average hetero teenage male gamer who's as prudish as a Victorian nun?
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
No. As opposed to a (non-average) hetero teenage male gamer, who runs around saying "I LOVE PUSSY!", or "I'm God's gift to women. Behold my cock!" It's one thing to be open about one's sexual orientation (whatever it is), and another thing entirely to embellish it to the point of irritation.
The lesbians that I, personally, know (and know of) are pretty quiet about the whole thing, just as I am about my own sexuality. Same thing with the gay folks that I consider friends. But just because I'm accepting, doesn't mean that I invite loud proclamations of anyone's sexuality into my life. I'd rather treat people based on their treatment of me, non-sexually, than on boisterous claims of their sexual preference, or worse, the depth of a man's throat or the length of a girl's tongue.
Those things aren't important to me. And the converse is also true: Even as a hetero male who definitely enjoys a good blow job[1], especially one that employs the exquisite feel of the tonsils and the soft palette, I'd really care not to know how deep a girl's throat is, or how long a man's tongue is -- especially in a gaming environment.
What this has to do with Xbox Live bans, I'm not sure, but I'm just trying to reiterate OP's point, which you took to such an extreme that it seems that you've lost it entirely.
[1]: This statement might be offensive to some. And, if this were a family-oriented service like Xbox Live, I'd expect repercussions for it. But it's Slashdot, so: *shrug* If it offends you, then I guess my point is thus validated.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:4, Insightful)
You may not feel the need to write "Straight" in your online profiles, but the odds are good that you acknowledge your heterosexuality in one way or another, like you did several times in your post. The issue with this reasoning is that straight people flaunt their sexual orientation every bit as much as gay people do, if not far, far moreso.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Informative)
Huh, so gamers don't mention their family? Funny, because when I googled Elrous0, one of the first pages I found was this [derkeiler.com]... and hey, looky what's in the "Relevant Pages" section at the bottom:
"I am the only one to use the PS3 in this household ... I very much doubt my wife would want to play Warhawk"
And *even still*, it'd still be hypocritical to have a policy *ban* one group from doing so and not another.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Interesting)
Why would anyone write about their husband/wife, sexual orientation, race, religion, or their favorite breed of dog in a GAMER PROFILE?!?!? It's a gamer profile, not your fucking personal blog.
Because it is natural for people to identify with other people who share interests or status. What's wrong with a gay gamer being interested in playing with other gay gamers? What about Christian gamers wanting to play with other Christian gamers?
Merely taking offense to someone saying "I am gay" is incredibly senseless. That's not even the problem, people don't have to say it, they can 'act' it and it's offensive.
As much as homosexually frightens anyone, I am far more frightened by mindless attitudes.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Mod parent up (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
What SHOULD they write in it? That they're a gamer? Gee, you don't say, never would have expected to read in a GAMER profile that the person is a GAMER. If you aren't writing a little bit about who you are in your profile for /just about anything/ then your profile is completely useless.
And for the record, I've heard and seen many gamers talk about their families or relationships both in game and on profile pages. It's neither uncommon nor completely inappropriate in itself. Banning somebody for it, even if there are people out there who are irrationally intimidated by and intolerant of your preferences in a sexual partner, is simply absurd.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a difference between saying that a company has no right to do something, and saying that it's stupid and unfair of them to do that same thing. I don't think anyone here is arguing the legality / contractual compliance of the action -- just that it's a stupid stipulation to put in the terms of service in the first place.
Poison many wells lately? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your tactic here is known as 'poisoning the well.' You want to put a shadow of a doubt out there. You have no proof of any misconduct on this woman's part, but plenty of proof of other's misconduct. People shout 'fag' all the time on Xbox Live. Guys hit on girls all the time there. Yet no one punishes them. You hear this woman's story and immediately begin a propaganda campaign implying, again and again, that she must have done something offensive. Why is that?
Re:Mod parent up (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyone else find it amusing that they are so concerned about being offensive to gays, but where is the consideration about being offensive to everyone else?
Anyone find it amusing that Kral presented the situation as precisely exactly the opposite of what happened, without intending to be ironic?
Re:Mod parent up (Score:4, Insightful)
That makes so little sense it's bizarre. It's not normally offensive to a gay person to say "I am straight", so why should it be offensive to a straight person to say "I am gay" ? Seriously, no-one here honestly believes that someone would have been banned for saying they had a boyfriend or girlfriend in their profile if they were a girl or boy respectively. No-one here honestly believes that someone's account would have been closed if their profile said: "I'm hetero." So it is correct to point out that this is a double standard. And as to other people being offended? Well you can be offended by people's actions and statements toward you, but if someone is offended by a personal detail about you, that's their problem and you shouldn't be punished for it. According to the article, this girl was hounded by others who kept following her into games and telling other players to "turn her in." That isn't acceptable if someone's profile says they're Black, or Indian or White or Christian or Muslim, and it isn't acceptable if someone says they're gay. Profiles are so you can learn a bit about the other person if you wish to. Being gay is a fundamental part of who someone is. At least most gay people would consider it to be and they're perfectly entitled to put that in their profile if they wish.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mod parent up (Score:4, Insightful)
Because it isn't really a natural form of sex....many people consider it as abnormal as necrophilia, pedophilia, or bestiality.
And those people are close minded bigots. None of those three types of sex are between two consenting adults, unlike gay couples. Besides, putting 'I'm a lesbian!' in your freaking profile isn't exactly forcing someone to watch icky sex they find disgusting, is it.
Would you be equally as happy banning people from putting 'I'm black!' or 'I was born deaf!' in their live profiles? Cos being gay, black and born disabled are all genetically predetermined.
If you have no problem being bigoted against one group, then you should be just as proud of your bigotry against the others.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Interesting)
The offense on behalf of the LGBT community is that we shouldn't be forced to hide who we are, or to deny it, or to downplay it. I agree that some people do make a point of broadcasting it to the world, and get pretty damned annoying, but so do some straight people, and you really need to calm the fuck down if you're offended by seeing a couple of girls holding hands, or if you hold a queer couple sucking face in a park to a different standard than you would a straight couple: that act is offensive because they should get a room, not because it's two guys making out instead of a guy and a girl.
I don't really think that she should be advertising on her gamer profile that she's a lesbian, but I don't exactly make a secret of my sexuality when I'm playing WoW, either. If I get hit on, I politely decline and explain that I like girls. *shrugs*
Also... do you have any idea how often girls get hit on by horny retards in games? Often enough that a lot of them will pretend to be male (I used to, hence the /. name) just to avoid it. She was probably saying she was a lesbian in a misguided attempt to discourage them: I've found, from experience, that while some guys will stop hitting on you when they find out they're not getting anywhere, a lot will just try harder in the hopes of racking up a conversion. My usual response to that is something like "if you point that thing at me, I'll remove it with a rusty spoon", and even that's not enough to discourage all of them. Until you've actually *been* a female gamer, you're not qualified to really comment on what kind of things we need to do in order to avoid being hit on by retards.
Fortunately, there's an operation to fix that, if you're interested. I have some friends who've been through it, and they're quite happy with the results. :)
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Funny)
Bob. Bit of a funny name for a girl. [youtube.com] :D
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
which overpowers the right of the majority not to be offended by them.
This right here is where you go off the deep-end and become someone who is need of a serious ass-kicking.
Let me bold this for you: there is no right for anyone to not be offended. Now go pay attention in Civics class before I run you off to a gulag.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to find out the full story as this sounds suspicious. IMO, if she added a note to her profile that she's a lesbian and was subsequently banned, they have treated her unfairly. If that's the case, the people who carried out the banning may well have broken the law. She'd certainly have my support, for one.
However, for all we know, she could have been causing trouble and getting into arguments with people over other issues. The linked report doesn't go into much detail other than her claim that she was banned for mentioning that she was a lesbian. I'd like to see some evidence, either way.
Re:Draw the line (Score:5, Insightful)
A few points:
What gives you the right to tell Microsoft "I've decided that your network isn't going to be family friendly"?
She wasn't telling Microsoft that, it's more common knowledge that their network isn't family friendly. I can say the sky is blue, but that's not telling the sky to be blue.
Video games started largely as an activity of children, and thanks to the Wii, is headed back in that direction.
I'd say the opposite - from what I've seen, the Wii seems to be moving gaming closer to an adult demographic.
Ultimately, its their network, a private entity. If she doesn't like their policies, then go somewhere else.
Just like if I don't like their policy of "No blacks allowed," I can simply find some other network to play my Xbox 360 on.
Re:Draw the line (Score:5, Insightful)
Do they, in actual fact, note such limitations on the box? No? Then I'm perfectly justified to bitch them. I may not have a legal case, but hell, I have a moral one.
Re:Draw the line (Score:4, Interesting)
Diners are completely private entities, owned by people who sunk money into the business? Are you suggesting it's okay to stop blacks from sitting at the counter?
Morally? No. Legally? Yes. And it's also legal for a lunch counter in Harlem to refuse service to whites.. And despite what you think, the legal right to "refuse service" has never changed. What changed were attitudes, because of the dedication of protestors, and the impact they had on public opinion. Read up on the Greensboro Sit-Ins. Authorities never made Woolworth's desegrate; they did so because the protests were starting to hurt their business. When a group of sit-in protestors at another business tried to press their legal right to use the facility, they lost.
It was the use of organized protest, public awareness, and economic boycotts that desegregated lunch counters. Not the law. The didn't come into it until it addressed issues of equal access to public services.... i.e. schools, courts, etc. No one ever told a restaurant they had to desegregate. They did because it was necessary to survive economically.
Re:What's the purpose... (Score:4, Insightful)
The "just came out" gay attention-seeking, tell-everybody-about-it phase is similar to the "linux user" attention-seeking, tell-everybody-about-it phase, which is also similar to the "born again christian" attention-seeking, tell-everybody-about-it phase.
When you have such a big change in your life, you want to advertise it to everybody... It's natural and if it happens to a friend of yours, you need to be patient while you wait for him/her to adjust to their new situation...
Re:Get a PC (Score:5, Informative)
Can we stop this misinformation? Most gamers do not buy a new video card every 4 days.
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey [steampowered.com]
Despite RAM prices, over 35% of Steam gamers have less than 2GB of RAM. About the same number are still running single-core CPUs. Just under half don't have a DX10-capable GPU, meaning their GPU is well over a year old. And that's with a generation of graphics hardware that gives extremely good value for money.
Re:If I said I'm a Lumberjack, will I be Banned to (Score:5, Funny)
Nah, if you're a lumberjack, you're okay.
Re:Sue (Score:5, Funny)
One word: Sue.
As if she hasn't gone through enough trauma, now you give out her name?!
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you understand the concept of 'victim blaming'? You're right, we could avoid the issue of people starting fights over other people's sexuality by banning the mention of other sexualities from people's profiles, but why should this policy be enforced across the board? Why can't users choose whether they'd like to closet themselves and avoid conflict or be open?
Also, being gay is not mutually exclusive with being a homophobe--I feel bad that you've convinced yourself that people who make *any mention at all* of their sexuality are giving other gay men and women a bad name.
What does xenophobia mean? (Score:4, Insightful)
Words don't always mean just what their roots would imply. For instance, xenophobia means hatred of strangers. There is such a thing as homophobia. And since you bring it up, you may want to look in your latest DSM to see if homosexuality is immoral or abnormal.
You can justify your bigotry any way you like, but it is still bigotry. Southerners had similar justifications for slavery, but now we look back on them as ignorant, backwards and racist. Just like future generations will look back at homophobia.
Just because some dude in a weird outfit claims that some invisible guy in the sky says that something is bad and wrong does not make it so. The only people who think homosexuality is abnormal or immoral are people who's religion or culture told them that. Nobody is born thinking it is wrong. Nobody arrives at that conclusion without coercion from an outside source.
Re:What does xenophobia mean? (Score:4, Interesting)
Can you prove that most of the world disapproves of homosexuality? I personally know a few Muslims, plenty of Christians, and a few Jews who do not disapprove. I don't know any Taoists who disapprove. Or Buddhists. Or Satanists. The one Baha'i I know is personally against it, but wouldn't tell anyone else not to. I don't know any Hindus well enough to have gotten around to discussing sexuality. Or Jains. And that's just considering my practicing friends & acquaintances, most of the people I know may say they are Christian, but they don't really do anything about it. And they really don't care one way or another about homosexuality. But one's friends do not a random sample make, eh?
If you believe that life is hard and the world is cruel, as your sig says, then you do not trust in your God. I know devout Christians, I'm friends with devout Christians, and they are joyful people. You need to listen more in church. Or maybe get a different church, some are filled with hate.
In closing, let me leave you with a quote from Stephen Roberts, "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."