Nintendo To Take On Apple With DSi App Store 165
Dave Allen writes "Despite Nintendo publicly claiming no direct competition with the iPhone or iPod Touch with its new DSi console, reports have been leaked about the Big N actively encouraging developers to begin work on small form gaming and non-gaming applications for the DSi's download service.
This is the first step toward Nintendo putting together a direct App Store rival, and could be the marketing hook it's been desperately searching for to convince gamers to upgrade their DS." It seems only fair that since the iPhone is now a gaming platform, the DS is becoming a PDA. And, if the only difference between them is a 3G wireless connection, the rivalry can only get more fierce.
Only difference? (Score:3, Insightful)
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How about Dual Screens, Dual Cameras, expandable memory, clamshell design. Not to mention the thing plays DS GAMES!
How about multi-touch, iPhone OS, GPS, accelerometer. Not to mention full iPod functionality!
Add Dual Sim's too (Score:2)
Add dual Sim card too.
Just recently I changed jobs and was provided a work phone. Carrying two phones around is a pain in the backside, and I'd love for a good quality dual-sim smartphone, that doesn't look like a cheap piece of junk.
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Not to mention the thing plays DS GAMES!
at the cost of all gba games. they removed that slot for memory. but hey, i think its an improvement
I've not seen a ton of information about the DSi, but how is it a big improvement over the DS? From what I've seen, it's basically a DS with a couple of really low resolution cameras and no more backward compatibility. Assuming I don't want to use my handheld game platform as a PDA, why would I want to "upgrade" to the DSi?
Re:Only difference? (Score:5, Informative)
The DS has an ARM7TDMI and ARM9 inside. The former is clocked at something like 33MHz, the ARM9 (which is used primarily for 3D rendering) at 67MHz. Specs are a little skiffy on the DSi, but the primary processor is an ARM9E at 133MHz. It also has 16MB of RAM, which is something like four times the capacity of the regular DS.
It should allow for some much improved games.
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As such, I highly doubt developers will decrease their available market and make 'Only for the DSi' games. If you mean improving games that ran like crap from before, or downloadable games from this new store, then maybe. The possibility would also exist to maybe download a HQ-te
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If commercial games are set up like homebrew games, the ARM7 CPU is normally used for collecting input--since the touchscreen and some buttons are only connected to this processor--and a few other tasks like sound, while the main processing for the game is done on the ARM9 CPU. I think there is a separate GPU (conceptually if not physically, since it's possible to have a CPU and GPU on a single chip) that handles the actual 3D rendering. The rendering is certainly done in hardware rather than software in
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Yeah, that's great - tell me, did they improve on the hard-limit of 2048 triangles per-frame?
Even if you add memory, it's geometry that's holding the DS graphics back - that, and the lack of bilinear filtering.
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Already on the DS you can play Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 6, and Disgaea. It has its own gaming library of new games that will likely be just as memorable 5-10 years down the line.
I believe the term you're looking for is "more modern, glitzed up, and shallow."
I wouldn't be surprised if the DS has already outsold the XBOX 360, Wii, and PS3 combined, and not due to its pricetag. It's a phenomenal system, and I expect the DSi not to be "better" but to enable custom content for new games.
But
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I'm not a big fan of the standard DS; I didn't buy one because it didn't particularly interest me at the time, and still doesn't (I dislike the two-screens gimmick, and it wasn't significantly more powerful than a GBA for what I was using it for with my homebrew). The better hardware and easier entry into publishing via a Nintendo App Store intrigue me about the DSi.
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Given the specs of the machine, I don't think it'll be long before the ARM7TDMI and friends can be emulated. It's not exactly like DOSBox on a PC, but it's not that far off.
I mean, if you need more than 16MB of RAM and a 133MHz ARM9E to emulate a machine of the same processor family (right down to Thumb instructions) that's got less than 512kB of RAM and is a quarter the speed...
Games over 15 MB; video emulation (Score:2)
I mean, if you need more than 16MB of RAM and a 133MHz ARM9E to emulate a machine of the same processor family (right down to Thumb instructions) that's got less than 512kB of RAM and is a quarter the speed...
For one thing, the GBA stored its games in a word-addressable ROM up to 32 MB. If a game is bigger than 15 MB, it won't fit entirely in RAM along with the emulator, and it'll need to be rewritten to load sections from the flash. For another, an emulator on the DSi would have to emulate the GBA's video and sound chips in addition to the CPU, or at least somehow virtualize the video over the DS's existing 2D chipset.
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The DSi has 256MB of Flash memory onboard. Plenty of room for the ROM, and while you raise a good point, it isn't particularly hard to re-invent paging. ;)
And the DS had the same 2D video chipset and sound chipset as the GBA, I see no reason for that to have changed.
Thrashing (Score:3, Informative)
while you raise a good point, it isn't particularly hard to re-invent paging. ;)
When you reinvent paging, you reinvent thrashing. The PocketNES emulator for Game Boy Advance had a version that ran on the GBA Movie Player, and before heavy optimizations were done to free up some more space for the paging system, Kirby's Adventure thrashed the crap out of the emulator's 192 KiB page buffer.
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True, I forgot about that. However, this doesn't seem like a huge problem. One that has to be tackled, but not something mindblowingly difficult.
Plus, the NES was a special case that was all sorts of weird. Bank switching, external RAM, all sorts of craziness. The GBA hardware really is much more straightforward. :)
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My R4 card runs 128mb DS roms that have full motion video off the flash. They're indistinguishable from the real cart. Flash mem is hella fast.
GBA Game Paks and NOR flash cards act like RAM, except they're usually read-only. DS Game Cards, microSD cards, and the internal NAND flash memory of the Wii and DSi act more like a disk. Learn the difference: Block device [pocketheaven.com] | NAND and NOR [pocketheaven.com]
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The DSi doesn't have a GBA slot, I'm not sure it has the hardware required to run GBA games (assuming that DS games never had access to the GBA hardware of the DS, Nintendo may have removed GBA hardware from the DSi, not just the cart slot).
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DS games did use the same hardware. The ARM7TDMI chip (the GBA core) was used for 2D rendering and most basic tasks, and marshaled its own use of the sound and video hardware of the system. The ARM9E chip was used for 3D rendering. Even if they've removed the ARM7 and are running everything on a beefed up ARM9E, I doubt they'd have removed the rest of the hardware. The DS already needed it.
Centering the image, for one (Score:4, Informative)
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I didn't know about the rotation modes being different; I don't yet own a DS and only do GBA homebrew. That could be tricky. The rest of what you outlined is in the "annoying but straightforward" category, aside from perhaps mucking with sprite priority.
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The DSi doesn't have a GBA slot, I'm not sure it has the hardware required to run GBA games (assuming that DS games never had access to the GBA hardware of the DS, Nintendo may have removed GBA hardware from the DSi, not just the cart slot).
The bad news about that is you might be able to download GBA games, but you're going to have to BUY THEM AGAIN. Also, some DS games access the GBA hardware, first one that comes to mind is Guitar Hero World Tour.
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Sorry. When I say "ARM7TDMI and friends", I mean the hardware in the GBA. Was being too cute for my own good.
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at the cost of all gba games.
And also at the cost of all DS games that require an accessory. No more Guitar Hero: On Tour. That discontinued DS browser is gone, too.
Nothing that used that slot is playable on the DSi. And I happen to like Guitar Hero: On Tour.
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Nope. It comes with the DSi. What you can't do is run the old version that required the memory cartridge.
Then again, why would you want to?
Just gotta say... (Score:1)
But... (Score:4, Insightful)
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The DSi has 802.11g connectivity, just not 3G like the iPhone. In that respect at least, it is competitive with the iPod Touch which also lacks 3G.
Don't confuse the regular DS with the DSi.
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Real 802.11g? or Nintendo's 802.11g?
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Real 802.11g, but sadly only WEP. (at the time, there was no WPA2)
Reccomended course of action is to get a USB adapter to put into host mode and set it to transmit as 802.11b with WEP. Avoids any leechers.
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If you want to go with WWAN though, the iPhone also has something that the DSi doesn't have: a monthly fee.
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I'm thinking that this is more in competition with the iPod Touch, rather than the iPhone.
It doesn't matter. The iPhone & iPod Touch can use almost all the same software, so developers get a two-for one deal. The DSi won't have the same installed base as the DS, so iPhone + iPod Touch > DSi.
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The DSi can use ALL of the same software as the DS/DSLite, so DS/DSL/DSi
That is true, but equally true is the fact that you can't download games for your DS/DS Lite, so those consoles aren't competing with the iPhone & iPod Touch in that sense. Don't get me wrong, I own both a DS & a Touch, and enjoy them both for different reasons.
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The DS has a totally different [...] control structure
The DS has a touch screen, like the iPod Touch, even though it has a D-pad and buttons instead of an accelerometer.
and the big thing: no WWAN connectivity.
Neither has the iPod Touch.
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The DS has a touch screen, like the iPod Touch
It may have a touch screen, but the touch screen is nothing like the iPod touch.
Re:But... (Score:4, Informative)
.
True, you can use a DS with gloves or a stylus when it is cold out.
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Really? That is good, but I am pretty sure it doesn't do multitouch, which can be very handy on a device like iPhone/Touch.
Pulling i out of thin air? (Score:2, Insightful)
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Because they already used Virtual Boy to much success so they're kind of limited on the names they left to use.
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All right, all right, I'm thinking I'm starting to get this.
Nintendo comes up with the name "Wii" for their new console. They do this to make something unique and not-bandwagon-jumpy so as to make themselves distinct. It is met with no end of bitching and moaning from the get-off-my-lawn gaming elite, who want their D-pads D-paddy, their control sticks sticky, and their console names a reaffirmation of their egos. And when I say "no end of bitching and moaning", I mean it; to this day, every time the nam
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All right, all right, I'm thinking I'm starting to get this.
Nintendo comes up with the name "Wii" for their new console. They do this to make something unique and not-bandwagon-jumpy so as to make themselves distinct. It is met with no end of bitching and moaning from the get-off-my-lawn gaming elite, who want their D-pads D-paddy, their control sticks sticky, and their console names a reaffirmation of their egos. And when I say "no end of bitching and moaning", I mean it; to this day, every time the name is mentioned in a Slashdot comment, at least two or three oh-so-clevar l33t gamerzzzz start making genitalia references, "lol".
So Nintendo names their upgraded DS the "DSi". And what shows up in a few scant Slashdot posts, right near the top? Someone bitching and moaning that Nintendo has jumped on a bandwagon. Waah, waah, waah.
(Emphasis mine)
Please forgive me.
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Wii? DSi? Sounds like a combination of the DS and Wii names to represent this has pulled feature ideas from the Wii generation.
What did you want them to call it? The DS Lite Plus?
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Metric (Score:2)
What did you want them to call it? The DS Lite Plus?
What about the "DS Liter"?
Though I doubt that would sell in America... they'd have to call it the "DS Two-and-a-bit Pints" there instead.
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If Nintendo doesn't intend to compete directly with Apple then why jump on the bandwagon with the "i" addition? I know it's trendy on everything from the iRobot to the i-Dog but in my opinion they show their hand with the name.
interactive, internet, improvement take your pick apple didn't create the letter "i" hell i bet you think DS means dual screen too Flame away.
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Really bad summary (Score:5, Insightful)
How does providing a download service for DSi "directly compete" with Apple's Appstore (to paraphrase the summary)? If you own an iPhone, you won't be able to access the DS store, and if you own a DSi you won't be able to access the iPhone Appstore, so how is that competition?
People won't be choosing between iPhone or DSi. They are completely different devices.
Re:Really bad summary (Score:5, Informative)
People won't be choosing between iPhone or DSi. They are completely different devices.
I own a DS Lite & an iPod Touch. If I had a DSi, there might be times when I'd buy downloads for it instead of my iPod Touch, hence there would be competition.
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Exactly! Just how when I buy cereal it's competing with parking meters which are competing with movie tickets that are also competing with ikea furniture!
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Exactly! Just how when I buy cereal it's competing with parking meters which are competing with movie tickets that are also competing with ikea furniture!
I know you were trying to be funny, but you were accidentally correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition#Economics_and_business [wikipedia.org]
Whereas cereal, parking meters, movie tickets & Ikea furniture are budget competition, the DSi & iPhone/iPod Touch are direct competition in the space of downloadable games.
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People won't be choosing between iPhone or DSi. They are completely different devices.
Well, in a general sense and spirit, I agree with you. But I would like to point out one small thing: I sometimes get an itch to buy a game for my iPod Touch. If I had the equivalent of the App store on my DS, I'd look at it first. In that sense, even though we're not talking about an event that happens often, it is technically competition. I like my portable devices, and I like the idea of having more games on them. I've been itching to get a Pandora device, for example, just so I could explore that
SDK? (Score:5, Insightful)
So, will there be SDKs for download?
Are there already SDKs for download, and I just didn't know about them?
Re:SDK? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:SDK? (Score:5, Informative)
~$2,000 last I checked. The price isn't the problem, it's getting into the program that's the problem.
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Compared to Apple's ~$100 yearly fee, $2000 is already a problem in itself. Even if you have to buy a $600 Mac mini in the first year, that's still $1300 cheaper for the first year and $1900 cheaper for every year after that.
Re:SDK? (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand Big N has understood something that Apple doesn't seem to get yet.
Quanity does not beat quailty.
How many complaints have we heard lately over the level of dreck in the iPhone App store? About how hard it is to find the diamond in the rough, or how long it takes to get an app approved unless you are a big name and able to talk Apple into fast tracking the approvals?
How many complaints have you heard about the same for the WiiWare store? I'm going to bet you that it's far fewer.
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I have not heard that. I've heard the opposite: That good apps can't get in because apple polices things too much.
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Quanity does not beat quailty.
And quality trumps all!
Have you played the Wii? (Score:2)
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Yes, I have. I've also put some bucks down on WiiWare. There is an issue with shovelware when it comes to the 'real' games. And there are a few WiiWare games that I wouldn't consider worth buying at the price point they are currently at, but over all, I don't find it hard to find something worth buying/playing when I visit the Shopping Channel with cash to spend.
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Ha, funny stuff.
How many complaints have we heard lately over the level of dreck in the iPhone App store?
Not that often, maybe once with the i am rich app. It is very easy to avoid the rubbish. There is a review and rating system, and there are top 10/25/100 lists all over the place, including on the iPhone/Touch itself.
About how hard it is to find the diamond in the rough
Easy, as I already said. Can't your read?
or how long it takes to get an app approved unless you are a big name and able to talk Apple int
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Not that often, maybe once with the i am rich app. It is very easy to avoid the rubbish.
[snip]
I takes me a week to get my crappy, small time apps published.
You just contradicted yourself sir, by saying that you don't encounter crappy applications frequently yet can get them listed within a week. One of those is incorrect, unless you rely on other users voting for top 100 lists to find good applications in which case other people have to dredge through the rubbish to find the sapphires.
You apparently missed his point entirely while rushing to defend Apple. It's because you can push your "crappy, small time" applications past Apple's quality vetting that there
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Sort of. The price is for the development equipment + software + ongoing support. (The latter of which I believe includes regular publications from Nintendo on the latest ways to make the best use of the hardware.) It's still more expensive than iPhone development, but not really enough to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.
The bigger issue is that Nintendo picks and chooses who can be in the program. Which limits WiiWare and DSiWare to established developers rather than Joe Blow.
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Nobody's going to pay for your crappy tetris knockoffs anyway, derrick.
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Nobody's going to pay for your crappy tetris knockoffs anyway
Who said anything about Lockjaw? Let me rephrase:
So how should an ex-hobbyist developer who plans to develop applications other than falling block video games afford, say, the $1,000 per month for an office? Should he try to turn a profit on apps for Windows first and then put that money toward getting into the program?
Rival? (Score:1, Redundant)
How can you be a rival when you don't even play on the same field?
It's ludicrous to think that Nintendo and Apple are rivals for downloadable apps.
Nintendo DS != a PDA, Game Store = Win (Score:5, Insightful)
(You don't have to look very far to see how digital distribution is changing the gaming market. Eg. XBox Live Arcade, Steam, D2D, etc. Nintendo wants a piece of the sweet sweet pie that Valve cooked with Steam.)
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Nintendo wants a piece of the sweet sweet pie that Valve cooked with Steam.
It was cake. And it was a lie.
The iPhone isn't a gaming platform (Score:3, Insightful)
The iPhone is a gaming platform as much as my Tamagotchi is a gaming platform (when compared to a DS). We're talking casual, short games vs. full blown DS games, there's no comparison here.
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... unless you believe all the hyperbole that comes out of Apple's marketing department.
The iPhone isn't primarily a gaming platform, like the DS, Wii, PS3, etc, are. It's primarily half-phone, half-portable computer, and half-iPod (yes, I know).
Focussing on the computer 'half', it plays games very, very well. Just because it's not primarily a gaming platform, doesn't mean it's not a gaming platform. Even a cursory glance at the games section of the App store will demonstrate that it has a very viable gaming ecosystem.
Now that there's a dock connection API and a bluetooth API, expect to see d
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Even the most minimal exertion of imagination would show this to not be true.
Re:The iPhone isn't a gaming platform (Score:4, Funny)
The fun part is that Nintendo actually saw the tamagotchi as a very direct competitor while designing Mario 64.
I'll read the rest of your post in a sec, I forgot to feed my Mario 64... brb
Another App store is not really a RIVAL, per se... (Score:3, Insightful)
The way I see it, another App store that is on another platform is not really a direct rival to Apple's iTunes App store for iPhone/iPod touch. They're not REALLY stealing any sales from Apple's store, as the Apple users will still continue to have to use the iTunes app store to buy stuff for their iPhones/iPod touch.
Now, if someone was to open an app store that was able to sync and install onto the iPhone, THAT would be a rival. Yes, at the moment that would require Apple certifying the application to be able to sync to the iPhone, and configuring the iPhone to allow such a store to sync onto it, which we all know would probably be as likely to happen as seeing Halley's comet next month near Earth.
Maybe, in the future, all these stores will coalesce into one big store, or use an open framework so that each store can sync onto any device... but for now, they are not really competition of each other so long as each store retains sole rights over its respective device.
It's not Apple that Big N is aiming at.... (Score:2, Funny)
They've seen how easy it is to make money on CSI knock offs. Now we know why Grissom left the CSI series, it's only a matter of time before we're watching Law and Order:The Mushroom Kingdom.
Despite claims? (Score:4, Interesting)
DESPITE claims? That implies that it goes against their complains of not being "direct competition." The DSi is still not going to be a phone or an mp3 player, which are what the iPhone and iPod are, respectively. So it's still true, this isn't direct competition. Oh no, a small hand-held PDA-like device that plays games and can connect to the internet. Apple is doomed. Nintendo is lying by claiming they aren't directly competing with Apple...
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Actually, the DSi will be an mp3 player: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2331546,00.asp [extremetech.com]
It will also take pictures with the built in camera. It's definitely adding capabilities beyond playing video games. I wouldn't be surprised if apps came out for playing videos down the road.
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Maybe that will change when the first devs start selling a PC-synchronising mp3 player app, and a VOIP app.
I think it's quite likely that the two device categories will have completely converged by the time Nintendo releases the next generation of handhelds.
"Leaked"? It was in the press release. (Score:5, Informative)
Typical selective tech reporting (Score:3, Interesting)
The DS plays games, the iPhone can play games, they are both immensely popular and have touch screens, therefore they must be competitive products.
If you look, you'll find similarly misinformed articles that act as though the iPhone was the first device to have a touch screen, or the first to have an application portal, or the first to play games. Misunderstandings like this are all over the internet and are a clear example of news outlets attempting to get some manner of readership by simply talking about something popular. It doesn't do justice to the devices in question, and it helps to perpetuate the general level of misinformation that most people have about devices that are rapidly becoming an important part of their lives.
Apple? (Score:2)
Re:In other words... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not in the slightest. Nintendo has been operating their Wii online store since before the iPhone App Store was a gleam in Jobs' eye. Their DSiWare track appears to be something they've been working on for some time. The iPhone App store and the DSiWare store are coincidental competitors, not reactive competitors. i.e. Nintendo no more reacted to the iPhone than Apple reacted to WiiWare.
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Also the DSi is not a phone. Thats a pretty big difference too. Maybe some could claim its competition against the Ipod Touch but really, one is made primarily for listening to music and the other for primarily playing games.
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SvSIP (Score:2)
Also the DSi is not a phone.
Only because of the lockout chip. The DS Lite had a homebrew phone app [svsip.free.fr].
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Have they released a firmware which makes the updated flashcarts not run or what? If not shouldn't that run on newer versions of Acekard for instance?
Re:In other words... (Score:4, Insightful)
Plus, Nintendo has a similar emphasis on quality and user experience as Apple, and much moreso than most of Apple's other competitors. However, I think Nintendo isn't interested in direct competition, but is probably trying to exploit an untapped market (like they did with the Wii).
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Not at all. The Nintendo DS has sold over a hundred million units; that's 2-3 times more than Apple has sold iPhones.
And the DS has been out 2-3 times as long. It's not just the iPhone, but also the iPod touch, as well as any future iPhone OS devices that the DS will compete with.
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The DS has no chance in compete in "application market and possibilities" as is, it was not designed for this in the first place, a new device may had been different.
I must admit I don't know much about the actual extra hardware on the DSi though, it had some builtin memory for storing apps?
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You are right, but Apple don't just sell iPhones, they also sell iPod touches, which run applications. They don't release the number of these that have been sold.
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Plus, Nintendo has a similar emphasis on quality and user experience as Apple
Except in Nintendos case you get awesome quality and service for your money.
I guess Nintendo could actually do a phone, thought not likely. Eventually the market will still (?) have them rated at a higher worth than both Sony and Panasonic/Matsushita, and both of them makes phones. And I guess Nintendo is rather good at optimizing their products on cost.
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I'm looking into an OpenPandora, but if the DSi had some of the same basic functionality - wireless internet, calender/organizer, notepad, etc. - it'd be worth the money for me (and probably cheaper as well).
Re:In other words... (Score:5, Funny)
Yet another additional surplus extra "me too" in the market.
I think you mean "mii too!"
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The DSi blocked all 'big name' DS flash cards when it was released. However, I believe there are already new cards out there that can be used exclusively with the DSi