The Survival of Survival Horror 57
Rich writes with this excerpt from GameTopius:
"When it comes to pacing and combat, Resident Evil 5 is being compared to Dead Space, as opposed to its previous peers, Silent Hill, Clocktower, and Siren. This is understandable: Resident Evil 5 is joining Dead Space in a new quadrant of the survival horror genre. These games are akin to survival horror in their look and style, and sometimes in the trappings of their stories, but when it comes to gameplay, they are faster paced, and emphasize tighter controls and tactical decision-making, not the ability to use as few bullets as possible on hard-to-hit monstrosities. The reasons for these gameplay changes have been carefully examined by designers and gamers alike."
...like (Score:2, Interesting)
>
really, no Left 4 Dead? (Score:4, Informative)
Left 4 Dead is THE survival horror game.
I can't really call RE5 survival horror when the main characters are zombie hunters by trade.
Dead Space is definitely survival horror, but sci-fi flavored.
Re:really, no Left 4 Dead? (Score:5, Interesting)
I really enjoy that game but I wouldn't call it the epitome of survival horror. Unlimited ammo and the ability to essentially rez your friends near the end of each stage count against it as far as the "survival" bit is concerned. RE4 was a much better example of survival horror. You really had to watch your ammo and fight smart if you wanted to get anywhere.
Really though I'm still waiting for a game to come out that looks at survival horror in the long run. I'd love to see a MMO or RPG-esque zombie game come out. Instead of worrying about the next thing to jump out at you around the corner (though you'd have to worry about that too) you would have to worry about things like having enough food and supplies to outlast the zombie hordes, or having to fight off other people from taking over your shelter. You could work with a team of other survivors to find a safe haven (i.e. clear this area of zombies and defend it). Since your supplies would constantly be depleting another aspect of the game would be leaving the safety of the shelter (while still leaving enough people back there to defend) would be going out into the world to find more. I'm sure there are all kinds of problems with a game like this and I don't know that anyone aside from myself would be interested in playing such a game, but it would be a nice change of pace from the "instant survival horror games" out there right now.
PS - I just finished reading World War Z and The Walking Dead, so it may be somewhat unsurprising that I'd be interested in a game like this ;-)
Re: (Score:1)
I would certainly like to play a game like this. I play Guild Wars a lot as I don't like WoW. I wouldn't mind trying an MMO similar to GW where a small band of people go out gather supplies, salvage what they can, return and give to the greater good. Economy would be difficult, weapons would be hard, ammo and such, so perhaps a profession and barter system where one person specializes in making ammo and another in armor or weapons. It would be nice if it were also buy once play forever rather than month
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
...why don't you start playing expert mode, and we'll talk about unlimited ammo.
Re: (Score:2)
Heh, maybe that is the issue. I have been playing on Normal. I'd still like to see a little more variety in my survival horror games though.
Re: (Score:1)
Left 4 dead on expert mode is a true survival horror game.
Play with 3 buddies in a single darkly lit room and you'll see.
Pretty soon you'll start panicking when you hear given zombie sounds, staying together will seem like a matter of _your_ life and death and you'll feel like every small section of a chapter is the last you'll be able to complete.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Normal is super easy. I recommend that new players play one or two levels (not campaigns) on normal, then crank it up to advanced and never go back. Experienced FPS players who have someone to guide them around levels ought to just start on advanced.
These days, I only bother playing Expert when I do Coop. Versus is where the big replay value's at, but if you can get some friends together IRL, Expert campaign is wonderful.
It's like this:
- Easy is unplayable. Ugh. Serously, the zombies do like 1 damage p
Re: (Score:2)
- Easy is unplayable. Ugh. Serously, the zombies do like 1 damage per hit, and there's NO friendly fire. The tank dies if just one or two people empty their Uzis into it, and can't possibly get close if you're paying any attention whatsoever, let alone actually hit you. Why bother?
You're missing the point of why we have easy mode: it's actually more along the lines of "you win" mode. The whole point is to give people who aren't looking for any sort of challenge at all a chance to complete the game.
The complaint about a game mode being too easy is a poor one only made by people who want a challenge... which isn't an excuse when there's 3 separate, harder tiers of difficulty.
Re: (Score:2)
IMO, Normal mode fills that niche just fine: I'm not even that good, and I can run through a normal campaign with bots, hitting every car alarm, leaving bots behind to die if they annoy me, plowing through hordes rather than finding a corner, etc. and still only use a couple of health packs. The only part that requires any attention is the finale, and that's mostly to keep the bots alive so they can distract some portion of the hordes.
I mean, it doesn't bother me that Easy mode is included--the more option
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
There's a single player non-versus game in L4D?
Re:really, no Left 4 Dead? (Score:5, Interesting)
Instead of worrying about the next thing to jump out at you around the corner (though you'd have to worry about that too) you would have to worry about things like having enough food and supplies to outlast the zombie hordes, or having to fight off other people from taking over your shelter
I had that experience playing Fallout 3 (PC, hardest setting), especially in the first 25% of the game. During that period, it felt like no matter how much I scrounged around for scrap to sell, I never had enough ammo, couldn't afford beds or a doctor, and the food I found had to be rationed for threat of radiation poisoning.
Whenever I set off to a new destination, I basically crept along in the grass. It seemed like if I was attacked in route, I would usually not die, but then I wouldn't have enough health or ammo to accomplish my objective (or really survive at my destination at all).
Eventually I built up a strong arsenal and collected some wealth, but until that turning point, I was constantly worrying about surviving in the long term. I actually started to think about how it would work as an MMORPG, much as you describe (I decided the major obstacle would be defending fortifications against attacks planned while most players are asleep).
Re: (Score:2)
In those movies this is the mistake the protago
Re: (Score:2)
But the disease is so virulent that a victim is assured of becoming a zombie and spreading it with just one bite, so there is no way to keep it out in the long term.
Well, duh. Zombies are metaphors for death. We all join them in the end. Any zombie-hunting game where it's possible to "win" is missing the point from square one.
Re: (Score:1)
Well, duh. Zombies are metaphors for death. We all join them in the end. Any zombie-hunting game where it's possible to "win" is missing the point from square one.
Man, where's the metaphor ? A dead guy as a symbol of death ?
It's just literally death, and it bites !
Try a metaphor for people living their lives with a near zero level of consciousness or peer pressure or whatever.
Re:really, no Left 4 Dead? (Score:4, Interesting)
I always took them to be a metaphor for powerlessness and despair. Once people start to feel they're powerless they can't escape it, and that feeling can spread to others. Survivors are those who refuse to be powerless victims. I've also heard the argument that zombies (at least in modern times) are metaphors for consumerism run rampant. Dawn of the Dead was a good example of this. The world starts to fall apart and where do the survivors end up? In a mall; a classic symbol of the consumer lifestyle. And they're essentially trapped there by their own choice. They have no ability to create new supplies and they know that at a certain point the mall will no longer be able to sustain them. Obviously there are differences between the original and the remake (no biker gang to ruin their sanctuary in the new one), but the idea of consumerism run rampant still fits.
Then again I always hate reading too much into my zombie fiction ;-) Give me my poorly defended farm houses and overrun cities and I'll be happy.
Re: (Score:1)
Or zombies are a convenient excuse to provide the player with a target-rich environment and more gore than should realistically fit into the human body.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm afraid that too many fans of zombie movies would recognize that scenario (and obviously Poe fans). If they tried to market a game based on that it would be shot down as cliche. Not everyone, but enough that it might not sell good enough to suit the company. I say "might not" because even if did sell just fine, the fact that it was criticized could scare the company enough to scrap before they got far into developing it.
I don't know, I think that watching things passively unfold on the screen (or in the pages of a book) and having a chance to do the defense your way against the zombies would be enough to bring a lot of people in. After all, we saw "badass guy runs around like a one man army killing hordes of bad guys to save the world" over and over again in action movies in the 80s, and people still loved doom and quake etc when they came out.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Fallout Boy 3? Fallout boy Online? Not that horrifying except in Mad Max way
Re: (Score:2)
I want a multiplayer game for GTA4 where the city is filled with zombies and the first person to reach the helicopter at the airport wins (or multiple people who reach the helicopter before it takes off).
There should be police barricades up and crashed vehicles blocking roads. Vehicles should take take more damage hitting things and hitting masses of zombies should slow you down more. There might also be other human NPCs who try to shoot at you.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
Left 4 Dead is a very fun, well-crafted game, but when I think "Survival Horror" I think of a game that isn't focused on combat but staying alive. This means painfully low ammo, little combat, and good use of tension. Left 4 Dead just throws you against X zombies who are all the same and then tosses in a few "boss" zombies here and there.
ah, they learn (Score:1)
...not the ability to use as few bullets as possible on hard-to-hit monstrosities.
*cough* like Half-life *cough*
Re: (Score:2)
*cough* like Half-life *cough*
Really? I honestly don't recall ever having to preserve ammo in Half-Life. Maybe it's just been too long since I've played it but...
Re: (Score:2)
During the parts where you're still in the Black Mesa facility, there's never a shortage of ammo. Even the nuclear weapons are well-stocked. In fact, I remember thinking, "This game has WAY too much ammo."
Then I got to Xen, and the ammo supply all but dried up.
Through excessive use of the crowbar, I managed to still have a reasonable quantity of ammo left when I reached the Nih
try Call of Cthulhu (Score:2, Insightful)
For one of the nicer instances of the genre, try Call of Cthulhu. You spend a good half of the total game without *any* bullets or guns at all. Good atmosphere, although the graphics are no longer state of the art.
Unfortunately, it seems there will be no sequel. It probably wasn't FPS-like enough to sell very well.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The Devs imploded before it came out the door.
Re: (Score:1)
The first half really was excellent, when they focused on story and atmosphere. The 2nd half that largely disappeared, and it got boring.
No (Score:1)
Furthermore, if you're actually scared by these games... you're a lamer on a hilarious level. Don't play Silent Hill.
Re: (Score:1)
Agreed.
Alone in the Dark was a survival horror.
Re: (Score:1)
Hmm... I tried playing on the Wii (maybe that was my problem?), but when you're posioned and the cure isn't where it's supposed to be, I just gave up and haven't played since.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree on the lack of scare in these newer games, but I'd like to have my scares while having some semblance of decent controls. The genre essentially says "Here's the game, here's the archaic and awful controls with which we cripple you in order to make the game scarier."
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
Want to know a survival horror game? The first time I played Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six. I approached it as a first person shooter for about one minute; then I realized that one bullet from a unseen assailant can instantly kill me. From that point on, I crept forward as carefully as in any zombie-infested underground research lab. A survival horror game loses its horror if you ever get to the point of seeing a monster onscreen and thinking "I can kill that, no problem." A single zombie in the middle of an empty room should still make you nervous.
Re: (Score:2)
One thing I think that has toned down the scare factor in RE4 and 5 is the way the new "zombie" level enemies (which I'll refer to as Ganados) behave.
Zombies felt no pain, were rotting, and wanted to eat you. Ganados flinch when shot by a 9mm, look fairly healthy, and generally try to bash you to death.
Zombies required a shotgun or higher grade weapon with scarce ammo to stop in their tracks with a single shot. Ganados stop in their tracks when shot with anything. And if you shoot them in the right places,
Re: (Score:1)
Well, the Gandos ARE "real" people. Just controlled by a parasite. I was hoping RE5 would go back to the T-virus, I can't see why they couldn't. I've played 1-3 on the Wii (as GameCube games), and I don't recall anything that said the world was safe from the t-virus.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's RE, not the genre. There have been survival horror games with pretty good controls; System Shock 2 comes to mind. (Of course, there's no way a control scheme like that could be made to work on a console.)
System Shock 2? (Score:2)
Come on, SHODAN and her minions crept me out!
Survival Games (Score:4, Interesting)
Survival Horror, to my mind, was a combination of two types of games. The most obvious is horror. Zombies and other scary creatures wandering about. However, the presence of horror enemies does not necessarily make something survival horror.
Take Painkiller. Painkiller is an old school First Person Shooter. You see something, and you shoot it. However, it was creative in the nature of it's scary looking and scary moving enemies. Since each level was different, not all stand out as horror, but the Asylum creeped me out enough.
The thing about Painkiller though is that you are, yourself a scary, unstoppable killing machine. The game makes it easy to start up again where you died, you get tons of power ups and ammo, and your main weapon is an unlimited ammo flying cuisinart. This is actually not uncommon for games, or for horror themed games.
Now, people are used to the original Resident Evil as survival horror, and it is, but there are more also more recent games that emphasize the other part of survival horror, survival.
Take Haunting Ground. In Haunting Ground your character is essentially a completely helpless teenage girl with no really effective way of fighting the horror. The big game mechanic? Well, when a big, horrifying guy comes along, hide under some furniture and wait for him to give up in frustration and leave. You don't have an effective way to fight back.
Now, the newer Resident Evils seem to have abandoned this to an extent. I haven't played 5, in 4 it is possible to run out of ammo. However... you do a lot more shooting than running in my opinion. At least I do... my approach to the original Resident Evil was to avoid using weapons as much as possible. Run past the zombies, try to avoid going dangerouse places... when dogs enter a room get to the door as quick as possible and don't go back unless you have too. For me a successful, "room run" meant I ran through the room without getting bit and without using up precious ammo. Shooting at something and missing, on the other hand was (for the game) annoying or even depressing, especially with rarer ammo for stronger weapons.
The original Resident Evil was meant to evoke the feeling of the original Dawn of the Dead. Part of the fun of that movie was thinking about post apocalyptic survival. It wasn't just about scary zombies, it was about finding supplies and safe places to stay.
Left4Dead is kind of a mix, I think it tries to evoke survival horror by requiring you to rely on your team, limits on some kinds of ammo and health, and the fact that attacking witches [youtube.com] really isn't a good idea.
Re: (Score:2)
Resident Evil 5 (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
I've noticed the same trend - except it hasn't been only within the past couple of years.
Games have gotten ridiculously easy, yet I'm honestly not sure what they should do to help this. They could move all the difficulty settings up a notch - but then they might alienate an entire user base, possibly one primarily consisting of children. Perhaps the fact that controls and gameplay have become much more complex contributes to this. Playing Super Mario, with a total of 3 buttons, is nothing like playing the a
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Speaking as a professional game developer...
Games have gotten ridiculously easy....
There are many reasons for this. As you point out, one reason is that you're getting better at the types of games you enjoy. You also understand the conventions of the games you play. One time my sister-in-law was amazed as I was racing through a game it took her months to figure out. I knew what to look for while solving the puzzles based on other, similar games I've played.
There has been a trend in development to make g