How an Online-Only TV Series Stays Successful 163
ChronoDragon writes "The Wall Street Journal points out that it is possible to make a successful web series without the backing of a studio. With the release of a music video, Do you Wanna Date My Avatar, and the start of Season of 3, the web series The Guild is ready for even more success. The Guild, created by Felicia Day (Doctor Horrible), is a low-budget comedy series about a group of MMORPG gamers and their interactions both online and off. While there are a lot of references that will be instantly recognized by gamers, the show is still very accessible to non-gamers."
You mean... (Score:5, Insightful)
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And don't forget low-budget!
Re:You mean... (Score:5, Funny)
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Amazon.com Sales Rank: #8 in MP3 Songs (See Bestsellers in MP3 Songs)
Popular in these categories: (What's this?)
#1 in MP3 Songs > Dance & DJ
#5 in MP3 Songs > Pop
Oh shi-
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002JEEJ2A?tag=you09f-20 [amazon.com]
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Owwwww! (Score:1, Flamebait)
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Funny, I quite liked it.. the Indian and the bald guy are hilarious!
Not to mention the music, which combined with Day's voice reminds me of Stacey Q..
I bought the MP3 from Amazon. :)
Eek. (Score:4, Funny)
World of Warcraft: Destroying relationships with girls since... well, the day it came out.
-- No. I mean this. I've got about six female friends that either bought it as a anniversary or birthday present, or their boyfriend bought it... and the relationship has always ended within eight months after that fateful purchase. My last friend got so fed up that she took the laptop (with the CD still in it) and smashed it in the driveway, drove over it a few times, then hit it with a hammer. Then she called all her friends and went to have ice cream. That game is pure evil -- it makes boys think dating a high level elf huntress is better than having a real girlfriend.
Legions of geeks coming to the defense of the game in 5...4...
Re:Eek. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Eek. (Score:5, Funny)
Undeniably a very daunting limit. How do you even survive?
Re:Eek. (Score:5, Insightful)
FWIW... I'm not sure that fits the definition of in moderation.
I mean, sure, some people watch TV seven nights a week, and compared to that, 4 nights only is limited... but for me, as a married guy with a kid, a hobby done in moderation means once a week, tops.
YMMV, of course -- I have no idea what your life is like, etc. But for me, just the thought of spending more than one night a week playing games makes my skin crawl with the thought of all the chores that wouldn't be getting done.
Re:Eek. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm just curious about what people are supposed to be doing at night after the kids are all in bed. Well, activities that don't involve making more kids aside.
Why is there this sense that we have to be busy doing things all the time? My parents used to watch TV at night, I prefer to play video games to unwind. I think it provides more mental stimulation than popping open a beer and sitting on the couch.
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Why is there this sense that we have to be busy doing things all the time?
Please remain in your location. A squad will be sent over shortly, and you will be "optimized".
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I've caught comments my whole life along the lines of "Why are you wasting time playing video games?" - from people who spend their entire free evenings plopped in front of the television. I've never understood this. I always ask how, exactly, a non-interactive video experience is less wasteful and I routinely get baffled looks back.
I've
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You have kids.. aren't they supposed to be doing the chores?
(...and what chores? Doing laundry? at least the separation/folding of washed/dried clothes can be done while watching TV.)
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Laundry. Cleaning. Preparing food for the next day. Household maintenance. Yard maintenance. Household repairs. Doing the bills. Maintaining the household budget. Cleaning the cars. Maintaining the cars. Research (investment, purchasing, schools, medical issues, all the million other things that require research).
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Wow, that's a lot of stuff.. at least one tiny bit, paying bills, could be done automatically (and save money (time and no stamp)) if you just sign up for auto-bill pay.
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So far this year I've noticed (and gotten corrected) overcharges on my Amex, another one of my credit cards, my Verizon bill, my Comcast bill (service now canceled due to shenanigans on their part), my HOA, and my gas bill.
Last year was much the same. I won't use autopay when corporate billing is so screwed up.
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for me, as a married guy with a kid, a hobby done in moderation means once a week, tops.
Your posting history shows that you post more than once a week. Is that part of your chores, or part of your job?
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Buy a Roomba, play more WoW.
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my roomba just made me more messy
drop some chips, fuck it
drop some cheerios, fuck it
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my roomba just made me more messy drop some chips, fuck it drop some cheerios, fuck it
Erm dude - just cos it's like having a live-in maid doesn't mean you get to take out your kinky maid fantasies on it. I mean do you seriously want to be the guy the new generation of "Well I was doing the hoovering in my dressing gown and it kind of slipped" excuses are based on?
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FWIW... I'm not sure that fits the definition of in moderation.
I suppose it depends on how long you're playing each night. Not everybody is in the "omg I must spend 6 hours raiding each night or it's not worth it" club. Log in, do a daily or two, hit a battleground, etc.; you can do that four times a week and easily have less than 2 hours of play time per week.
Let me guess... (Score:2)
Getting judged by people who know little/nothing about you on the Internet is fun.
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Yes, we both work. Yes, daycare is involved. But if you think daycare is raising our kids, you're sorely mistaken.
First, there's no complaining involved.
Second, we don't own expensive items. We solidly live within our means, save over 15% of our net income (not including 401k) -- college tuitions aren't going down, and donate over 5% (plus a lot of time spent volunteering). We aren't materialistic in any sense of the word... we place a high value on making sure there are no problems
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It surprises me that so many people you know have 16-17 hours worth of things that need to be done everyday. I wonder how someone would fit in non-recurring events such as band concerts, ballgames, and other activities that come up into lives that a
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But for me, just the thought of spending more than one night a week playing games makes my skin crawl with the thought of all the chores that wouldn't be getting done.
Don't worry; that feeling goes away after a few weeks of WoW.
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Re:Eek. (Score:5, Funny)
All things in moderation
Especially moderation.
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MJ's dead, friend. And I'd rather Coke than Red Bull.
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Dating a high level elven huntress is fine, as long as she belongs to your RL girlfriend. WoW is also great as long as you can limit your usage so your RL girlfriend and job get more usage than WoW.
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Hardly accurate for all relationships. I played with my girlfriend for quite a while, and I must say nothing made her more attractive to me than her dancing as her troll priest avatar.
Here is an idea for your friends, why don't they try to take interest in what their guys enjoy? Then instead of bitching and moaning that their boyfriends don't spend enough time with them, they will want to find ways not to spend so much time together.
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nothing made her more attractive to me than her dancing as her troll priest avatar.
... and this is why geeks have the female stigma that we do. You're saying that *nothing* makes your girlfriend more attractive than when she logs in to a video game and presses a key. I mean, you've seen the girl naked before, right? But you would prefer watching a character dance onscreen than actually interacting with your girlfriend's physical body?
To each his own I guess..
Re:Eek. (Score:5, Funny)
You haven't seen his girlfriend.
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You haven't seen his girlfriend.
Neither has he.
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I think you're mistaking his point. It's not that he's more attracted to the polygonal body than the real body. It's that his girlfriend is fetishizing his hobby with a lovely /dance. He loves that she enjoys his hobby, much like the satisfaction you get when you recommend a book or movie to a friend and hear how great it is later on.
Pornography is rift with females fetishizing male hobbies. If you don't believe me, search girls with guns on Google.
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Yeah, I know.. but..
"nothing made her more attractive"
"nothing"
not anything
The single most attractive thing she could possibly do would be to log in to WoW and hit the "dance" button. woooooo!
Maybe I just can't relate because all of my girlfriends have disliked video games, but still.. nothing?? really?
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Well, saying "nothing was ever more X than Y" is a figure of speech, so it's supposed to be a bit exaggerated. But whatever, I guess.
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Unless you are some ultra rich nerd most settle for soem ugly nerd they are able to get - which (like them) doesn't look too hot. And because (normal) men are visually oriented its hardly surprising that even an image is more appealing to him.
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Yeah, I know, but "nothing more attractive"? Really?
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Yeah, I know, but "nothing more attractive"? Really?
Maybe he's into blue skin and underbites...?
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I guess.. I mean, it's no alien sideboob, but I guess if that's your thing.
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This was marked Insightful?
God, Slashdot could use more women.
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10 - watching her install Ubuntu... naked!
(Peels lacquer layer off disk.) Okay, Ubuntu's naked, where do I get the girl?
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This is the exact reason I avoid MMO's like the plague. I know what would happen to me, because it's happened before with IRC. At least then I was 17 and had nothing to lose.
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This is the exact reason I avoid MMO's like the plague. I know what would happen to me, because it's happened before with IRC. At least then I was 17 and had nothing to lose.
Au contraire. I started playing when I was 22, working full time and had moved out of home. I had nothing else to do on the evenings so why not? At the time some of my friends were still in school/uni when they started playing and I remember thinking "god, I'm glad I didn't start playing this while I had study to do".
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My toons are all celibate. Since my beloved IRL doesn't play, I don't even allow myself the fantasy of another SO relationship. Problem solved.
Flirting is flirting, even on line. There's a real live person behind the character. Don't do it.
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My toons are all celibate. Since my beloved IRL doesn't play, I don't even allow myself the fantasy of another SO relationship. Problem solved.
Flirting is flirting, even on line. There's a real live person behind the character. Don't do it.
Common sense on Slashdot? Inconceivable! =p
My wife and I play Guild Wars together and have the same understanding. If she's not on, I'm not flirting with any females. If she is, she's the only female I am flirting with.
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So she's got you by the virtual balls as well?
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My toons are all celibate. Since my beloved IRL doesn't play, I don't even allow myself the fantasy of another SO relationship. Problem solved.
I solved the problem differently: I just ship [tvtropes.org] my characters amongst themselves, that way its no more "cheating" than masturbation is.
Who is Pure Evil?!? (Score:3, Interesting)
The game itself is neutral. Playing the game isn't evil, just a waste of time. However, willful and wanton destruction of other people's properly certainly could be considered pure evil! (Wouldn't just hiding the CD be sufficient?) Elf Huntresses don't get pr
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World of Warcraft: Destroying relationships with girls since... well, the day it came out.
-- No. I mean this. I've got about six female friends that either bought it as a anniversary or birthday present, or their boyfriend bought it... and the relationship has always ended within eight months after that fateful purchase.
I'd be sold, except for the fact that your math doesn't work. I have six female friends that either bought [insert product here] as an anniversary or birthday present and they all broke up with their boy/girl friends within 8 months! That's almost certainly true for anyone who has at least 8 female friends.
WoW is a time sink, as are all MMOs. If you introduce a time sink into a relationship without an understanding around what you both want out of it, there's going to be trouble. The same is true for any ho
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I'd be sold, except for the fact that your math doesn't work. I have six female friends that either bought [insert product here] as an anniversary or birthday present and they all broke up with their boy/girl friends within 8 months! That's almost certainly true for anyone who has at least 8 female friends.
Sure, but did they all blame the same thing, without talking to each other first?
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it makes boys think dating a high level elf huntress is better than having a real girlfriend.
I hate to be the one to point it out, but if someone thinks that way, it's not the game's fault. They were already like that before they got the game, your friends just either weren't able to pick up on it, or thought they could "fix" the guy.
Re:Eek. (Score:5, Funny)
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And it's not limited to guys either. Within my group of friends, there are more female players than male. Go figure ;-)
Nope, it can't be your friends... (Score:2)
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I mod you -1 stupid for referring to girlintraining as "man".
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I didn't refer to her as a man, it was like "Man, it's hot in here". Would you say "Woman, it's hot in here?"
Is American English not your first language? If not then I understand your misunderstanding of common American phrases.
Simple answer (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, and wall street journal articles and front-page slashdots don't hurt either.
Tiny budgets help a lot (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy The Guild, and am quite impressed how good the show is with what they have to work with, but if all TV had to be made with the tiny budgets they work with (each episode is like 10 minutes long, very limited sets, etc), you wouldn't get shows like Star Trek, Babylon 5, Firefly, or Battlestar Galactica, to name but a few.
I for one, am happy that at least *some* bigger budget shows are made (yes, yes, not all big-budget shows are any good - some are just big money holes), but I'd like to see a successful larger-budget online show, to pave the way for a gradual move to more television being online.
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but I'd like to see a successful larger-budget online show, to pave the way for a gradual move to more television being online.
The main problem is control. With a small-budget show, you have a group of friends who generally agree on most things. With a larger budget you have more roles, more people, with more people becomes more disagreement. With TV you have the network more or less as a moderator, approve the content and distribute it. But with online its different, -anyone- can host it and its usually distributed over many channels, so do you put the content up for free on YouTube? Do you have ads on it? Do you have another si
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", you wouldn't get shows like Star Trek, "
haha. star trek had almost no budget. In fact one episode had a props budget of less then a dollar.
Re:Tiny budgets help a lot (Score:5, Informative)
According to this site:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/TOS_Season_1 [memory-alpha.org]
That would be the equivalent of $1,322,201 per episode in today's dollars.
Re:Tiny budgets help a lot (Score:5, Funny)
[citation needed]. "My big brother told me" is not a credible source.
Re:Tiny budgets help a lot (Score:5, Informative)
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That's called "the exception that proves the rule".
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Blake's 7?
The ship was a cardboard cut out for frack's sake.
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The progression is quite simple:
some small-budget productions -> lots of small-budget productions -> some big-budget productions and lots of small ones -> lots of big- and small-budget productions living in a stable ecosystem.
It happened with games and the web at least, so it's likely what'll happen with online video shows as well. And I, for one, am quite happy that we've finally reached some degree of success with step 1, even if we're not ready yet to throw our dumb boxes out the window.
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Yeah I got a kick out of how Tink's iMac turned into a plain old LCD with a Vista sticker slapped on it in Season 2...it made me chuckle.
And seriously MS, those LCDs are dull....why not get a nice shiny Samsung or something if you're trying to flash that Vista orb?
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Felicia Day in Blizzcon feed (Score:5, Informative)
If you have access to the Blizzcon feed via DirectTV or the internet, there is an extensive interview with Felicia Day and accompanying video regarding the background, making, and future of the Guild.
It's around 5:45 PM in the Saturday feed. It's in a filler time that many people who bought the package might not have watched.
Alas for the majority of us, she talks about how so much of the needed resources are loaned to her from friends and other kind people who want her to succeed. While that's all well and good, that can't be counted on as a viable business model. (Almost any business can be profitable if it can acquire most or all of its resources for free and convert them into a product to sell.)
Re:Felicia Day in Blizzcon feed (Score:5, Funny)
And let us not forget this lovely bit [youtube.com] from the interview.
Cue "this is why we don't have women around" debate in 3.. 2.. 1...
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When my wife showed that to me I was annoyed. It reinforces the stereotype that geeks are unable to be around women because they always repulse them. Most geeks seem to have no idea how to act around women, so when they finally get the opportunity they make off-putting comments like that. Don't they see how lame it makes them look?
To quote you, this is exactly why we don't have women around.
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I suppose you could say that she should be able to portray herself as extremely sexy and into that sort of thing and still not have to be treated like this, but these are males we are talking about. Geeks, yes, but males. Any group of males would have reacted to her "invitat
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Did you watch the music video [youtube.com]? This woman clearly made use of her "female attributes" in that video. If she didn't want women to be viewed that way, maybe she should have avoided turning herself (even more) into a sexually desirable object.
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How can people call something that works "not viable"? What is wrong with getting support from people who like you and your work, directly? As you said in your last sentence, it would work for almost ANY endeavor.
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Many small businesses start this way, with people maxing out credit cards and borrowing money from friends and family in order to get started. Many fail, too. Some don't. Richard Linklater got his start in this fashion and saw some reasonable success.
answer: it doesn't. (Score:2, Informative)
loaded with ad's cheap + sets + acting + MS lockin (Score:1)
loaded with ad's cheap + sets + acting + MS lock in.
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Also on Miro:
https://www.miroguide.com/feeds/8889 [miroguide.com]
(looks like it's way behind though).
"successful" is a relative term (Score:5, Interesting)
As another comment noted, they were not really that successful until actually receiving distribution. As a cast member in a web series (Break A Leg [breakaleg.tv]) we have been struggling not to gain an audience, respect, or critical acclaim since we have all of that. We just need money. Even the brushes we've had with sponsorship and major network distribution tend to fall apart through no fault of our own. It's just the way the business works.
We poke fun at The Guild from time to time, but it's a great show. I don't think though that's it's really a model of how to "stay successful" as an online-only series. You can't replicate what they did or follow their path like a recipe.
It just doesn't seem possible to actually BE successful as a web-only series, if success is defined at all in terms of money, without real money backing you. We even had a marketing firm whoring us around for awhile, and while it led to a few sponsorship deals here and there it never really led to independence for anybody from their day-to-day careers. There's just no real monetizing of the online-only series going on unless you have a patron or distributor who's willing to take a loss on you in order to get some other intangibles out of it.
That said, Break A Leg has a major distribution deal in the works, but it only proves the point. We're never going to be "successful" sticking to the web. The internet was just a way to get our show out there, and the show initially was just a way to showcase our talents (as writers, actors, editors, sound designers, directors, cinematographers). We need someone to get us OUT of the internet in some form in order to really get us see and heard of on a scale massive enough for everyone to quit their jobs.
Oh well, that's just me ranting. I love internet episodics, I hope they never go away. I just also hope some way materializes for people to earn real money doing them without needing a Microsoft distro deal or a major network buy-out.
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You are right. As it is, not many shows earn much money back without some form of distribution and marketing. YouTube can be considered both, but even people that get millions of views on their videos don't make an independent living, even the million+ view videos only make tens of thousands of dollars if they are lucky. I don't think YouTube pays anyone outside of some specially arranged deals. Making money through these free distribution services rely on people buying products as a result, and it does
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Having just looked at your website, I can't see anywhere that I could pay to get access to your episodes. I can't see anywhere I could pay to get a DVD.
Assuming that you're giving away your product for free (seriously? then complaining about cashflow?) I also can't see anywhere that I can pay to have an enhanced experience of some kind.
Ha
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Excellent point sir.
Kevin Smith (the Clerks guy) has a weekly podcast called Smodcast. It's quite successful, in terms of downloads, nominations for awards, etc... But they have had real difficulty getting and keeping a sponser for the show. And he's pretty famous and well connected.
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If your objective is to get hired in other shows, then I'd say you have to be hired for other shows as a result of that work. I don't think Felicia Day was obscure before The Guild, maybe it helped some, but it doesn't seem like it helped a lot. Now if the other actors in the show get hired as a result of the show, then you might have something to call a success, but that depends on how far the career goes. Most actors are unemployed, even the successful actors seem to realize that, they probably had bee
Joss Whedon? (Score:2)
Anyone know if she and Joss retain any professional connection?
I guess I just kinda assumed that Joss was helping her out on this.
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Question: Who directed Do You Wanna Date My Avatar?
Answer: Jed Whedon.
Question: What else did Jed Whedon work on?
Answer: Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog with his brother Joss.
Question: How many times during Commentary: The Musical (on the Dr. Horrible DVD) does Felicia Day mention The Guild?
Answer: At least 3, but it's all part of one song on it.
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I guess I just kinda assumed that Joss was helping her out on this.
Joss has noted The Guild as being an inspiration for doing Dr. Horrible. So there's some recognition there, but it certainly doesn't sound like there's any direct help. It seems more like The Guild was in production well before Joss was even aware of it.
I think it was during the Comicon panel on The Guild that Felicia explained the involvement of Jed, Joss' brother. It went something along the lines that they decided they needed some teaser to start up the new season and thought a music video would be fu
Huge built in audience (Score:3)
Part of The Guilds success is no doubt due to their vast built in audience... A show for players of Puzzle Pirates or City of Heroes/Villains has much less of a potential audience. It also no doubt helps that those audiences are used to fan made material and have very low expectations as to writing, acting, and production values.
(As a side note: Has everyone forgotten RvB [wikipedia.org] already?)
I don't however agree with summaries conclusion that the video's are 'accessible to non gamers'. I'm a gamer (though mostly out on the fringe, UO, CoX, YPP!), and I found them somewhat hard to understand because the terminology used was so WoW centric.
Wow... this is terrible. (Score:2)
I watched what I think was the first episode of season 2.
That was awful. Thankfully it was only 5 minutes.
I see why it's online and not on TV.
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Did you start from the beginning of season 1? It's character driven. If you've followed it from the beginning it'll make a lot more sense.
I'm not saying it's great or anything, but it makes me smile.
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No, I can see the characters and the stereotypes they're supposed to be. You've got the GM, the crazy chick, the uber asian gamer, the fat mom ignoring her kids and family... I get the characters. They're just bad, and badly acted. It looks like the series is for people who don't play MMOs so they can feel justified when they make fun of people who do play them.
There really isn't a whole lot to the series where I felt like I was missing something by not having seen season 1.
The stars answer... (Score:2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBaOCKtDY9g&feature=related
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http://www.mininova.org/tor/2882031 [mininova.org]
The submitter says they are crap web quality though (ripped from website). Couldn't find a DVD rip, but I didnt look very hard.
Never heard of this show. Hopefully it will be along the lines of pure pwnage [purepwnage.com], which incidentally has all their eps in decent quality up for free download (and has apparently been picked up by showcase ?!?).
Now thats a real success story!
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And Ice Cream!
By your powers combined, I'm... oh wait..
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