Geohot Brings Other OS Support To PS3 With Custom Firmware 270
suraj.sun tips news that hacker Geohot is following through on his promise to fight Sony's removal of the "Install Other OS" feature on the PS3. He posted a video of the work he's done so far that shows a PS3 console booting into Linux. Quoting Engadget: "While it's not available to the public just yet, Geohot's 3.21OO custom firmware will apparently be simple to install and, as you can see in the video after the break, it works just as you'd expect and simply restores the 'other OS' option to its previous place. Geohot even says that the custom firmware might actually enable the other OS feature on the PS3 Slim, but he hasn't yet had a chance to try it out."
Ha. (Score:2, Insightful)
Say hello to 3.21.01 counter-updates from Sony soon. The battle doesn't end.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Learn something?......This is still Sony we are talking about isn't it?
Re:Ha. (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole point of the removal was to thwart Gehot's efforts on the PS3 hack.
I'm not 100% on this, but I really don't see Sony taking this lightly. They want to remain unhacked, so this is the way they see fit.
To me, this expands the base of people hacking their console.
Re:Ha. (Score:4, Interesting)
Which would be precisely the reason they made this change in the first place and does nothing but prove them right. If you want to stick it to the man (as with all piracy), don't buy their products, send them an email and maybe try to draw some media attention to the issue. Sure the impact might be small, but at least it's a positive one.
Pirating just convinces the corporations that stricter anti-piracy measures are the answer, and frankly they may have a point in this case given console vs PC piracy rates. If you don't think the game's worth what those who made it are asking for, show some self restraint and *don't buy it* rather than ruining things for the rest of us.
Re:Ha. (Score:5, Insightful)
The PS3 was the only console not hacked for piracy. I bought my fat PS3 because of Linux support, Sony was underhanded and took that away. I think they deserve to lose out on some profits because of the disrespect they showed their paying customers. IMHO, no one hacked the PS3 because Sony was being semi-open and allowing people to use a piece of hardware the bought for something they wanted to use it for.
I won't be spending anymore money on Sony products or PS3 games in general, but I'm pissed off they took something I have already paid for away.
I sent e-mails and complained in forums and to the BBB. What I got back from Sony was a quote of Section 11 from the EULA saying they have the right to change the way their console, that's taking up space in my den, at anytime. The BBB sent me response saying "We're investigating".
Dispute what Sony did to screw me and all other PS3 Linux users over if you wanted to continue to hack the PS3 all you had to do was not update. So did what they do really effect someone trying to open the console for piracy? NO.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Ha. (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh that's certainly true, but then I can't use it for the other reasons I bought it. BluRay, Games, Media Server, PSN.
If you think that's a choice here's one I posted later on in the forum. Would you like to be shot in your left or right knee cap? You have a choice and regardless of how painful it is you'll still be able to use the other leg or get a prosthetic one to use them both... Until Sony, I mean I decide to take that too.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, there is. If you update, you lose linux support. If you don't, you lose the ability to play online games.
Nowhere in there is there an option to keep all the features the PS3 currently has. Sony will take something from you, and giving you the rock/hard place choice is not adequate to excuse this.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You also lose the ability to play some NEW games, as frequently, games require the most recent version of the firmware (at the time of the game's release.)
Which is a pretty big deal, frankly. Because PS3 games aren't advertised as "Sony PS3 with Firmware XX.YY" games. They're advertised as PS3 games.
Re: (Score:2)
I beg to differ on their losing profits, this is a purely profitable change for Sony:
Sony loses money on every PS3, and gains money back from licensing games, and their own game sales. They also gain money from PSN. What are you removing from the PS3s? The ability to install another OS. Does that contribute to profits at all? No. In fact, it caters to PS3 supercomputing, which involves buying a sizable number of PS3s (a net loss for Sony) and not buying any games (no profits here), and not even connecting i
Re: (Score:2)
Mostly I agree with the points you raised here. A couple of things I don't think you've thought of are the people who bought the fat PS3 are also the early adopts, the people that keep a product floundering until it catches on. Without them the PS3 would have been dead before it was even released (that's an exaggeration to make a point). Those people are now less likely to buy into the PS4 when it eventually comes out.
The early adopting Linux geeks are also a very vocal, mostly technically inclined, communi
Re: (Score:2)
Are you sure about that? The component costs have come down by a lot since launch (esp. the Blu-ray laser, but also the Cell CPU) and I'd not be surprised at all if they turn a profit nowadays, especially with the Slim. But the big money is certainly in collecting license fees.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, I meant to say "lost" since these only apply to fat PS3s and they've stopped making them. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Model_comparison [wikipedia.org]
But if they lost money on the fat consoles only, where's the point in "shedding" people who bought them - they're not buying more fat PS3s, and what's done is done.
Re:Ha. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but at the time he bought his console, he had access to the Sony network, can plays all of its bought games and OtherOS. Patching it's console mean that he keep access to the network but lose the OtherOS, not patching mean that he lose access to the Sony Network and some of it's games (how insist to access the network), but keep the OtherOS. In the 2 case he lose something that he had pay for.
Re:Ha. (Score:4, Interesting)
If you choose not to update you can do whatever the hell you want with your PS3
Except use it to play newer games, new BluRay moves, Can't use the media server to watch movies I bought and downloaded and I can't access the PSN to retrieve any DLC I've paid for and need to re-download, sync my trophies, chat and the list goes on.
What I can still do with my PS3 if I don't downgrade it with the 3.21 patch is use Other OS, play PS1 and PS2 games (the fat has backward compatibility) and use the media server to play pirated movies and TV series.
So, the results are I won't be buy any new Sony products, I won't ever be buying any DLC, BluRay or downloadable movies again. This experience has taught me that at anytime any group can take stuff you've bought away so I'm not going to be wasting my money anymore. Sony has lost one paying customer and gained one proponent to piracy.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Quite the contrary, it's not ridiculous, it's true. Sony's good drive security prevented drivechips (which is where the money's at), and Other OS prevented homebrewers from exploiting the system, which inevitably leads to softmod piracy (which is usually developed by people piggybacking on homebrew hackers for all the hard work). Consoles are hacked for homebrew [marcansoft.com] which is then abused for piracy.
I know quite a few console hackers, and until the Slim's release (no Other OS) the interest in breaking out of the
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Not the case with the PS3 though. Games are region free.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That position is irrelevant. Expecting people to stop copying based on those arguments (regardless of their validity) is naive.
The only real way to stop the majority of file sharers is to make it difficult enough, like the PS3 still is.
So the companies have to make cost analysis and decided what brings in more profit: screwing with your current costumers to gain some file sharers, or lose those file sharers that would pay but make your costumers happier. As long as the first option brings more money, they w
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
However by making copying games difficult, you reduce the usefulness of the device...
Back in the days of the Amiga, i knew lots of people who had a handful of bought and paid for games, and we would share those games between ourselves (ie copy them)... We were schoolkids and couldn't afford to buy all the games but between us we bought a fair few.
Had it not been possible to copy the games, we simply wouldn't have had them, we would have used another platform where game copying was easy. Very few of us had c
Re: (Score:2)
However? That was the first option: "screwing with your costumers to gain some file sharers".
In your case, maybe they would have lost you has a costumer, but people who could afford the games, maybe would buy them if it was difficult to copy.
Like I said, it's not good vs bad. Both options have advantages and disadvantages to the console producers. The more effective way to tip the balance is to refuse to buy DRMed games.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, that's wrong.
Except that in some cases, the cost of copy protection can effectively kill the console.
See the case of Playstation vs Nintendo 64. The cost of copy protection was one of the main reasons that gave the victory to PS. The N64 cartridge system, although it virtually prevented any piracy, also meant the game copies were much more expensive and space limited. While I personally prefer my N64 to my PSOne, especially
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, two corrections:
"Actually, that's wrong." ---> "Actually, that's wrong, the Xbox360 may turn a profit: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20061120132150.html [xbitlabs.com]"
And
"Again, there are no always right and always wrong decisions, it's cost analysis."
And yes, I know my grammar sucks.
Re: (Score:2)
If you want to stick it to the man (as with all piracy), don't buy their products
So I don't want to buy the Sony console, the Microsoft console, or the Nintendo console. Now what product do you recommend for set-top video gaming?
Re: (Score:2)
re: proving them right (Score:2)
"Don't buy their products" is hardly a useful response this long after the fact! Most people I know with a PS3 purchased it YEARS ago, and are just now dealing with this firmware issue.
And furthermore, I don't *care* if piracy "convinces a corporation that stricter anti-piracy measures are the answer". The fact is, eventually, that whole "cat and mouse" game ends somewhere. Either the company tries the "let's get tough on them!" thing, pumping huge amounts of money in it, only to find it keeps failing th
not on slim (Score:5, Informative)
I will be completely surprised if this works on the PS3 slim.
I understood that one of the ways Sony cut the price and reduced the size for the slim was that they did not include the IBM hypervisor that made the whole thing possible.
(see:
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-linux-ps3-1/ [ibm.com]
http://www.osnews.com/story/22073/Why_No_OtherOS_Option_on_PS3_Slim_Sony_Answers [osnews.com]
for a few more details)
Without the hypervisor, its just not possible.
Re:not on slim (Score:5, Informative)
Re:not on slim (Score:5, Informative)
I don't believe they have dropped the hypervisor - that's one of the major security strongpoints and partly what has kept the PS3 from being totally pwned by now...
From the osnews article [osnews.com] you linked, they say (with emphasis mine)
Re: (Score:2)
brilliant - I should RTFA that I referenced!
Re: (Score:2)
Ethernet, wifi, bluetooth and HDD controllers are some obvious possibilities.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know about this. Look at the history of the PS3 and you will see that Sony has been steadily taking away features rather than adding them.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm saying that all those features are already there on both versions of the PS3, but those are a few of the possible hardware changes in the process.
Re: (Score:2)
Nah it wouldn't be able to run many of the previously available games with that amount of RAM. It still has 256MB [qj.net]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That ones actually called Anonymous Coward.
Sorry for feeding the trolls
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Well done Sony (Score:5, Insightful)
You made it this far without people building custom firmware. Now you've forced people to find ways to put custom firmware on the PS3. Next up is "indie" games followed by pirates followed by the game industry going back to PCs or over to other consoles.
Too bad. I actually liked by PS3. Hopefully something new will come along soon so I won't have to buy an xbox...
Re:Well done Sony (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a little known platform called a "personal computer". It works a lot like a gaming console, except that it isn't crippled at the hardware level by the OEM and has a wider range of software available. You can even install Linux on it :)
Seriously, I've never understood the appeal of spending serious money on a deliberately crippled computer, when I have a perfectly good one already. Doubly so from a company that even rootkits their audio CDs.
Application Data; HTPC gaming (Score:2)
anyone who played PC games might notice that there is no standard location for save files
Any PC game that doesn't put saved games within in %appdata%\(publisher)\(title) or %userprofile%\My Documents is not following the Windows file system hierarchy standard and thus is not a conforming Windows application.
different folder locations for different companies, and in some cases different file locations for save games from the save company
In the %appdata% model, each company's saved games are supposed to be in different folders.
Also with couch gaming you can get single screen multi-player a feature which is never implemented on PC's.
Never is a strong word. Sonic Kart [wikipedia.org] apparently has it, as do Serious Sam, Left 4 Dead, and Lego $movie. But I agree that single-screen multiplayer is not as widespread in major-label titles as the hardw
Re: (Score:2)
What is it with separating things by publisher?
People aren't going to necessarily associate the name of the publisher with the name of the game/app...
Re: (Score:2)
What is it with separating things by publisher?
It's just the common naming practice in %appdata%. In the case of two applications named the same thing (remember Firefox when it was Phoenix or Firebird?), publisher folders have the advantage that these apps won't step on each other's toes.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I probably didn't make this entirely clear, but installing some exotic O/S variant isn't compulsory. This being Slashdot, I can see how you might have formed the wrong impression about that.
The fact is, you can get by very nicely with the drivers that come bundled with the system in the vast majority of cases.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, four years ago it was pretty competitive. Meanwhile Moore's Law marches on.
Also, you have to allow for a lot of that $800 going on the BluRay drive they were desperate to get some marketshare at the time. Factor that into the price, and unless you really needed a BluRay player, you got to wonder where the value lay.
Re: (Score:2)
It's probably going to take some good while before its even know that there is a viable way to install custom firmware. If / when it does happen, good luck to the pirates who run the real risk of bricking their machines, who must spend days downloading hug
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Both the Wii and 360 have been easy to mod for piracy, you'll note that both units sell rather well. The NDS is the easiest of all to run copied games, it's not exactly a sloth in unit sales either. The PSP failed because the games went shit and peoples' tasted moved away from "real" console like gaming to quicker simpler offerings, just look at gaming on devices like the smartphones. Silly little cheap and cheerful games that lots of people love.
It's been suggested Sony may forced the issue to trigger a mo
Re: (Score:2)
Piracy doesn't directly affect system sales. Well, that may not be true, it may actually increase them.
What it does is get the publishers to release less exclusives for it.
Seriously, though, the PS3 is the least pirated current system because it uses Blu-Ray discs. Your two options there are to 1. buy a Blu-Ray burner (expensive) and writable BD-ROMs (expensive?), or 2. have an HDD connected (internal or external) with images of games that could be up to 50GB each.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I was under the impression that one of the things Sony got right with the PS2 and PS3 was the option to install Linux. Not for any reasons of ideology, but just because it isolated separated those who wanted to experiment with their O/S from
Re: (Score:2)
Have you misread the part of parent's post about "pirates"?
FTFY
Somethings messed up his MAC address (Score:2)
It says FF:FF:FF etc in the info screen. Thats not right. I wonder if his "firmware" has any side effects he's not letting on about.
Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address (Score:5, Funny)
It says FF:FF:FF etc in the info screen. Thats not right. I wonder if his "firmware" has any side effects he's not letting on about.
You mean that maybe it stutters?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You mean that maybe it stutters?
First time I've ever missed not having mod points.
Re: (Score:2)
> Does anyone think this clown has actually "cracked" this? Sounds like his other "crack" for the PS3, which was basically not a crack at all.
I'm not sure why you are calling him a clown, he's a respectable hacker that has worked on jail-breaking the iPhone, and enabling access to the locked out 7 SPU's in PS3. If you are eluding to his age, then it's sad.
Here read more about him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hotz [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Geohot has a tendency to overstate things to gain an ego boost and media coverage. In the case of the PS3, he is quite the novice. Throughout this whole saga, he's made numerous technical errors that he later had to correct. This is normal; he had no clue how anything on the PS3 worked when he started. Just don't be misled into thinking he knows exactly what he's doing.
He's not an idiot, and he's learning, but I wouldn't go anywhere near any custom firmware that he puts out at this stage. He can't possibly
Re: (Score:2)
FF:FF:FF
Scorchio!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If he discloses the MAC address of his device then sony would be able to identify him... If i were him i wouldn't want to disclose it.
Australian Competition & Consumer Commission (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know if America has anything like the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission [accc.gov.au] but if you do, I'd urge you to raise this issue with them (and if you're in Australia, please get onto the case).
This is a simple case of a company changing the specs on a product that you have bought, after you've bought it and changing it in an adverse fashion. It is removing a feature that you have paid for and have possibly had for years, without offering any workaround or compensation.
Sony claim that the update is not mandatory, and that it is entirely your choice if you wish to install it or not, but the simple fact is that by not installing the patch, you lose even more functionality than if you do install it. No PSN. No Playstation Store. On online gaming. No access to new games that require this or a newer firmware. No access to bluray content that requires this or a newer version of the firmware. Etc.
Here's the text of the submission I made to the ACCC (you're limited to 1500 characters)
Re: (Score:2)
Sony has just issued a firmware update[1] that disables the "OtherOS" support that is used to run alternate operating systems such as Linux on the Playstation 3 (PS3) game console. This was an advertised feature of the PS3 and was a factor in my decision to purchase the product. The firmware update is effectively mandatory; the PS3 will not support online play or game updates/downloads via the Playstation network without it (these are also advertised features).
That a major consumer electronics company can unilaterally remove advertised features from a product that I have bought and paid for is chilling to say the least and appears misleading and deceptive in the classic "bait and switch" style. I request that the ACCC investigate this matter.
[1] http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/28/ps3-firmware-v3-21-update/ [playstation.com]
Re:Australian Competition & Consumer Commissio (Score:5, Funny)
Reply from the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission:
This is why you can't have nice things.
Re: (Score:2)
That's obviously a fake, as they didn't sign off with the obligatory:
"Get a dog up ya, mate"
Re: (Score:2)
The American equivalent is the FTC, Federal Trade Commission.
You can complete a complaint form at https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ [ftccomplai...istant.gov]
Not sure the best address to use on the form, but here is one of them:
Sony Computer Entertainment America, Inc.
919 E Hillsdale Blvd 2nd Floor
Foster City Ca 94404-4247
Appropriately, the PS3 blog considers FTC to be a swear word [imageshack.us].
Complaining to the BBB is pointless. SCEA already has an F [bbb.org]... I don't think they can get an F-.
Interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
You're right, there is a paragraph in the EULA that Sony are using to justify this "upgrade" however if such an upgrade conflicts with the law, then I'm afraid that it's the law that wins out over the EULA.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That's not entirely true. There's a DNS trick you can do to let you log into PSN with a 3.15 PS3. Just use this as your primary DNS: 67.202.81.137 its your PS3 that determines if you can use PSN, if it thinks you're fully updated you can use it.
http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&start=90#p37713 [yellowdog-board.com]
http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&start=150#p37842 [yellowdog-board.com]
Re: (Score:2)
I bought PS3 mainly because of OtherOS. Now they remove it. Can I get my money back, the product does not have the features I paid for and wanted? Oh well. Probably there is a paragraph in sony EULA that allows them to do this. There's probably few lines about my soul too..
First, it is not clear how enforceable a EULA is, largely because you are not forced to sign it before using the product. Second, it is not clear where the law will treat the boundary between software and hardware. Third, you cannot sign away your legal rights. This one could take a long time and make a lot of lawyers very rich. I sure fucking wish they would start already, Sony could use some come-uppance.
Re: (Score:2)
but noone is forcing you to upgrade? you have to choose between 'otherOS'(Linux) and games, just like we all do..
I can shoot you in your left knee cap or your right knee cap. Which would you like? I've giving you a choice.
Is Sony going to change their ads (Score:3, Insightful)
from "It only does everything" to "It no longer does everything"?
PS3 no longer a "computer"? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
PS3 is a GAME CONSOLE, not a COMPUTER.
Then someone will have to release "Linux: The Game" pretty soon so it can run on the PS3.
Re: (Score:2)
Achievement Unlocked: Apt-Gotten!
Achievement Unlocked: Upgrade!
Re: (Score:2)
Sadly, the Acheivement: Accelerated Graphics Access can only be attained by infiltrating Sony.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
PS3 most definitely IS a computer. It has a processor and can (barring deliberate attempts to prevent it) run arbitrary code. If it's just a game console, then why do people use them to crack encryption/hashing algorithms?
It may be a locked down computer, but it's still a computer that works exactly like a desktop or laptop computer underneath.
Re:Repeat After Me: (Score:5, Insightful)
PS3 is a GAME CONSOLE, not a COMPUTER.
Mustang is a MUSCLE CAR, not a VEHICLE!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Mustang is a horse. :)
Re: (Score:2)
PS3 is a GAME CONSOLE, not a COMPUTER.
It seems that you don't understand what a COMPUTER is, though.
Re: (Score:2)
My PS3 has the following: CPU, RAM, hard disk drive, display adapter, NIC, USB ports...
Sorry, could you remind me what the difference is?
Re: (Score:2)
SDTV output as a standard feature
My last two laptops have had these.
A competent* 3D chipset as a standard feature
My last two laptops have had these.
A prevailing mindset among developers to consider allowing multiple players to use gamepads
I can think of a large number of console games that only support one player per console, and I've not come across a game for my computer for a long time that I can't play with a joypad.
Firmware with a cryptographic lockout endorsed by the major labels to keep the indie game developer riff-raff out
This seems to be the only real difference, but since the PS/3 shipped with firmware that allowed installing another OS, it doesn't seem like the PS/3 is a console either. Does XNA mean that the XBox isn't either?
Re: (Score:2)
My last two laptops have had these.
Because you chose them with this feature in mind. I was talking about "as a standard feature", meaning that every unit that belongs to the platform has the feature. I checked an Office Depot, and zero desktop PCs came with S-Video out. One has to learn about and then buy an obscure $40 adapter online to get that. But I'll admit that SDTV output isn't as important now that most TVs sold in the past 3 years are HDTVs with PC inputs.
Likewise with 3D performance. The high market share of the Voodoo3-class In
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Where does it say "You may not modify the software in such a way as to provide the advertised functionality"?
And you are aware that contracts of adhesion don't give a company carte blanche to interpret it in whatever manner they see fit aren't you?
Re: (Score:2)
Correction. This won't end well for geeks and in the end, for Sony. Hackers will take advantage of this work to crack it wide open and make piracy of the PS3 a trivial thing. Sony brought this on themselves. Most, however, won't care or even notice that the option is gone. Hell, even I never messed with it the Linux option on my PS3 (yes, I know my geek card is at risk). I'm irritated that they can just remove it, but I didn't buy it to run linux. I have any number of laptops and desktops that can do the sa
Re: (Score:2)
make piracy of the PS3 a trivial thing... .... Is it news to Joe Public? Not in the slightest.
you contradict yourself, this is very much relevant for Joe public, since it means that within a year he can go to Jim public and buy some games for $5 a pop
Re: (Score:2)
You assume that most of the public pirates games if given the opportunity, and doing so still requires technical knowledge. I don't think that's the case at all. Someone with computer knowledge would probably do so (hence the news for nerds), but some typical home user? Unlikely.
Re: (Score:2)
Typical home users are more likely to pirate games, given the opportunity to do so...
It's a simple matter of economics...
Pirate game - $5
Non pirated game - $50
That's why anti-piracy propaganda tries to claim that pirate copies are somehow inferior (based on analog media like vhs losing quality when copied)...
The only thing stopping joe public from pirating games is a lack of knowledge, if you go to a member of the public and offer to modchip their console and sell them copied games for $5 a pop most will ju
Re:Inevitable, really (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm getting tired of this "But that insolent peasant just wouldn't know his place and show proper gratitude for the scraps he'd been given, so poor Sony was forced to retroactively remove a feature; let us all shed a tear for Sony." crap.
Re:Inevitable, really (Score:5, Interesting)
Their console is in third place...
Their console is the only one which doesn't have rampant piracy...
Anyone else notice the connection?
I know plenty of people with xbox or wii consoles, most of which are modchipped to run copied games... Most of these people have a mix of copied and original games.
The few people i know who have ps3 consoles have a much smaller number of original games, and no copied ones...
Re: (Score:2)