NAMCO Takes Down Student Pac-man Project 218
An anonymous reader writes "The core of how people first learn to do stuff — programming, music, writing, etc. — is to imitate others. It's one of the best ways to learn. Apparently a bunch of students using MIT's educational Scratch programming language understand this. But not everyone else does. NAMCO Bandai sent a takedown notice to MIT because some kids had recreated Pac-man with Scratch. The NAMCO letter is pretty condescending as well, noting that it understands the educational purpose of Scratch, but 'part of their education should include concern for the intellectual property of others.'"
Play for free? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh no, anyone can play Pac-Man for free! [google.com]
Re:Play for free? (Score:5, Informative)
Look at the source of the page:
"PAC-MAN's 30th Birthday! Doodle with PAC-MAN & ©1980 NAMCO BANDAI Games Inc."
Perhaps Google actually worked with NAMCO?
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps Google actually worked with NAMCO?
They did; there was a writeup about it on Google itself.
But in the vein of "IP", I want to educate them (yeah, I know, they're not reading this) about their assertion "part of their education should include concern for the intellectual property of others". NAMCO is the entity that needs to educate themselves. In the US at least, Pac Man is NOT their property! It's OUR property. It belongs to everyone. MAMCO merely has a limited time monopoly on its distribution.
I ho
Re: (Score:2)
I thought NAMCO was an American company.
>>>It's OUR property. It belongs to everyone. MAMCO merely has a limited time monopoly on its distribution.
Excellent point. Also hasn't Pac-Man (the code/maze not the character) fallen into the public domain by now?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Play for free? (Score:4, Funny)
Makes me wonder if Google got the same take down notice??
No, it probably went like this:
Namco: I am big company! Hear me RAWR!
Google: I eat companies like you for breakfast. HEAR ME RAWR!!
Namco: *whimpers*
Google: Yeah, that's right. Back away slowly little one, else Imma buy you and get EVIL on your ass.
Okay, so it was probably done with more legal talk and less Rawrs, but that would have been the idea - or close to it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's also possible, that out of the blue, Google lawyers approach Namco, say they want to make a cool front-page gizmo that emulates a pacman game in light of the 30th anniversary, and works out a contract for the right to do it. Pacman being a classic, but old and relatively profit-less production at this point, probably allowed it for not much more than the name recognition, if that. Getting permission in advance is usually much easier, and besides, if pacman wasn't a realistic option, there are hundred
Re:Play for free? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Play for free? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
"Hey Google. Heh, you old search giant! Did you know-"
-"Sue us and we'll make this court thing cost you way more money than you could possible make from the Pac-Man IP."
"I was just about to tell you it was going to be a hot day today, so you might want to keep an eye on the airconditioning for your servers... Hey it's this late already? Geez gotta pick up my kids from school."
Re:Play for free? (Score:4, Insightful)
We're monkeys. We learn by copying what others have done. When we fully understand what's already been done, we add our own little bit and then someone else copies us.
Re: (Score:2)
Google 'Beef products inc' and 'Pink slime' before you even think about making exact copies of that shit.
Then again you can just get pre-made frozen burger patties and get the same wholesome quality beef. / Sarc
BTW don't get me wrong.
I love good beef.
Which makes me hate bad burgers even more.
Re: (Score:2)
We learn by copying what others have done. When we fully understand what's already been done, we add our own little bit and then someone else copies us.
With art as with science, "if I see farther than other men, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants." I'm just glad patents don't last as long as copyrights, or technology would grind to a halt like art has. We've sold our culture to the money worshipers.
I wish copyrights were as short as patents; if so, this would be a non-issue. Lessig was right
Re: (Score:2)
yeah, the big mac wouldn't last long on a bookshelf.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
No please, don't say such cool things knowing it will never be true.
Seriously, with Google's wallet, you could actually pay for a decent writer to rescue the farce that is Tekken. Don't get me wrong, I love the game as a fighter and it works quite nice as a Double Dragon style beat-em-up. But with those amazing cutscenes...it looked beautiful but they were re-donkey-lous.
Nina is what...40? 50 years old now? But she's the sex symbol and so some cryogenic-hibernation handwavium keeps her in her 20s. Paul does
Re: (Score:2)
also known as part of the reason big companies stay big is the number of lawyers (and quality thereof) they have
Part of the reason that the TSCOG thing is taking so long is that they know that when it gets to the IBM case
THEY ARE CARBON.
CEO to Corp Legal Dept: prevent me from looking stupid in court (or even getting to court as such)
Re:Play for free? (Score:5, Interesting)
MIT just needs to make it a parody (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
O'RLY (Score:3, Funny)
because some kids had recreated Pac-man from Scratch
Perhaps if this was the sentence the NAMCO lawyer had read, oh wait, things would have gone down the same.
part of their education should include concern for the intellectual property of others.'"
And part of our collective foots should be up NAMCO's ass.
Re: (Score:2)
Being lawyers, they should look at precedents [wikipedia.org] to realize that "look and feel" isn't "intellectual property".
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Being lawyers, they should look at precedents to realize that "look and feel" isn't "intellectual property".
Namco would rely on Atari v. Philips [wikipedia.org], a lawsuit over a Pac-Man clone that Atari (Namco's console licensee at the time) won. The difference between that and other look-and-feel cases you're thinking of (Apple v. Microsoft, Capcom v. Data East, and Lotus v. Borland) is that Pac-Man is an identifiable character, and identifiable characters have stronger copyright protection than elements whose form is dictated by function or by stereotype. One could replace Pac-Man and the ghost-monsters with original chara
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
part of their education should include concern for the intellectual property of others.
"Intellectual property?" I prefer the term "thought hoarding."
Bad news (Score:2)
If the empires of the past sought to control physical resources for their own gain, I don't think it takes too much imagination to see what the future holds for the information economy.
Also, I'm looking forward to all of the sci-fi book recommendations. Can I get them on my Kindle?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If the empires of the past had guarded their "intellectual" "property" so jealously as these money-grubbing little cunts, we'd all be shitting in open trenches today.
Re: (Score:2)
No we wouldn't, because with bronze-making a closely guarded secret, only the richest could afford trenches to be dug.
You would simply collect your shit to a big pile and dig in to stay warm at winter, hoping that you wouldn't be found and clubbed to death for stealing the idea from that Einstein fellow.
what about the business majors? (Score:5, Insightful)
why aren't they being taught to respect the rights of others (fair use, etc)? why aren't they being taught that they can't have an indefinite free lunch in a free market? why aren't they being taught that broken business models propped up by government do everyone a disservice?
Re:what about the business majors? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because business is war, only restrained by law, and free of morals. Conventional morality is a liability in business.
The goal of business is profit, and if we would shape its behavior that must be done by imposing fear of punishment as a deterrent acts which we sufficiently disapprove. People respond to fear even if they are amoral. Be ready to inflict pain upon those you would have behave themselves.
Re: (Score:2)
... fear of punishment has effectively been removed under the protection offered by corporate entities. "We were just doing our job" goes all the way to the top when it gets written into law that corporations must "serve the interests of the share holders" whatever that is interpreted to mean at any given moment. No one is responsible for their actions in a corporation.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"However, if this is the case, these people participating in this 'business' deserve neither respect nor obedience. "
If business wants "obedience" it should pay what the market will bear.
Standing on the shoulders of giants. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Standing on the shoulders of giants. (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. If Pac-Man was 3 or 4 years old and still sold on store shelves I would have infinitely more understanding and sympathy for the IP owners.
Over 20 years old, during which you had the opportunity to profit from your work, I have no sympathy at all. In fact, it goes from sympathy to loathing for all the reasons you outlined.
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't be surprised if it were still for sale - as a downloadable game for cell phones.
Re: (Score:2)
I just downloaded a demo of MsPacman from xbox marketplace, two weeks ago. I don't know if Pacman is available, however.
Re:Standing on the shoulders of giants. (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. If Pac-Man was 3 or 4 years old and still sold on store shelves I would have infinitely more understanding and sympathy for the IP owners.
Pac-Man is 30 years old and still on the shelves.
Google shopping returns 8,000 hits for licensed Pac-Man games and related products.
Namco sells $3000 full-sized replica Pac-Man Arcade Games [hammacher.com] for the family room.
Re: (Score:2)
Imagine the consequences of Mozart suing Beethoven over the first 3 stanzas of Beethoven's First Piano Sonata.
Or for that matter, if copyright had dissuaded Beethoven from creating his Ninth Symphony.
Some of history's greatest pieces of music would never have been...
Re: (Score:2)
Imagine the consequences of Mozart suing Beethoven over the first 3 stanzas of Beethoven's First Piano Sonata.
Imagine George Harrison getting sued for a song he wrote because it matched the hook from a song that was already on the oldies station. Don't imagine; it happened [vwh.net].
Or for that matter, if copyright had dissuaded Beethoven from creating his Ninth Symphony.
Some of history's greatest pieces of music would never have been...
I did the math [slashdot.org] in a past life.
Re: (Score:2)
Some of history's greatest pieces of music would never have been...
I would like to take this time to give a moment of silence for the multiple orders of magnitude more music that will never be...
Oops, I just infringed on John Cage's [wikipedia.org] copyright of silence :/
Pretty ironic that Namcos lawyers most likely were infringing the same copyright, while writing the take down notice about MITs copyright infringement
Re: (Score:2)
Upholding intellectual property right doesn't seem fair unless your paying italian and greeks for the alphabet, arabs and indians for numbers.
Re: (Score:2)
"concern" (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like a good idea; they should learn to find intellectual property deeply concerning. These students already have, the hard way.
Don't hate the company, hate the lawyers... (Score:3)
It is sad that one of the oldest gaming companies in the world has become so shortsighted as to punish a group of students using as inspiration one of the best games ever made, by a bunch of students that want to honor "Pac-Man" by recreating it on Scratch. Not to sell it but to learn. Shame on you Namco (and your lawyers), too bad non of your games now are worth even pirating otherwise i would wish that to you.
One down ... (Score:4, Funny)
One down, about 1620 more [google.com] to go.
Wait... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
> L.H.O.O.Q is sort of the canonical example,
I was going to scold you for not defining an obscure acronym... but... well you know...
Rockstar did this pretty effectively (Score:2)
http://kotaku.com/5315632/grand-theft-auto-and-pac+man-the-same [kotaku.com]
The trick is, don't make it look so similar? Since calling out the similarities doesn't seem to be a problem..
Namco makes a good point (Score:4, Interesting)
There really is a good lesson about intellectual property to learn here. No, it's not exactly the lesson Namco wants these students to learn, but in this overly litigious society, it's important for everyone getting an education in computer programming to learn about patents, copyrights, and trademarks, both in terms of how they work and in terms of what their limits are. After all, you can create a Pac-Man-like game without treading on Namco's turf, and programmers should take some time to learn just how to do this sort of thing.
No, they don't make a good point. (Score:2)
They are being a bunch of whiney crybabies because somebody copied an *IDEA* that they had... Ideas are not copyrightable.
If the person had actually copied any of Namco's original Pacman code to make the game, then there would be copyright infringement. But that doesn't seem to have happened here... somebody just recreated it (no pun intended) from scratch.
Admittedly, there is still the trademark issue of "Pac Man", and it's only on that premise that they should have any claim whatsoever, but I notice
Re:No, they don't make a good point. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I've taken a look at the site.
What it APPEARS has happened here is that NAMCO have _assumed_, based on the appearance of the site, that what's running on the site is actually a Java emulator running the Pac-Man ROM. I say that because a) the loading sequence that Scratch projects show when invoked via the web looks just like the startup for such a Java emulator, and b) there are still lots of pac-man games on the Scratch site that haven't been affected.
Alternatively, it could be the case that an evil-minded student rival reported the page to NAMCO. See, letting people infringe on your copyright just by turning a blind eye is ok; but if there's an actual paper trail proving that you _knew_ about the copyright infringement, you HAVE to take some legal action to enforce it - otherwise, your copyright can be overturned.
There is definitely something deeper here than what has been reported, and it may be worth reserving judgment until we know what it is.
Re:No, they don't make a good point. (Score:4, Informative)
AFAIK, what you're describing happens only with trademarks, not copyrights, so I think you may be confusing the two. At most, people that the copyright holder does not take rightful action against might be construed as having been given implicit permission to copy the work, but that should not remotely affect future cases against other people.
Re: (Score:2)
You're correct. Trademarks need to be actively defended, lest, among other things, they become genericized. This is absolutely not the case with copyrights, which can be selectively enforced.
On the other hand, laches could apply to copyright under certain circumstances (see this example [constructionweblinks.com]), but that's a different story.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
if there's an actual paper trail proving that you _knew_ about the copyright infringement, you HAVE to take some legal action to enforce it - otherwise, your copyright can be overturned.
You are confusing trademarks and copyrights. But the Pac-Man characters - and the other distinctive design elements of a Pac-Man game - almost certainly are trademarked.
Re: (Score:2)
Bullshit. So citation please.
Re: (Score:2)
you can copyright the look and feel of something. I would consider it analogous to making a new painting and saying "no you can't photocopy it, and no, you cannot hand-paint an identical replica". But, had they changed the stages, maybe added a new feature, or changes some play mechanic, and used slightly different images, then they would have been fine.
Part of Our Education (Score:2)
Just call it (Score:2)
If they made it from scratch.... (Score:2)
It may infringe on trademarks if it used those...
But you can't copyright an idea. It's unfortunate that it appears to have been taken down
Ridiculous. (Score:2)
Somewhere in the federally-declared disaster area I call an apartment, I have an old programming book that details remaking various arcade classics...on the Commodore 64. I'm not sure, but Pac-Man might have been among them. I guess times change.
NAMCO was right in this case (Score:3, Interesting)
The core of how people first learn to do stuff — programming, music, writing, etc. — is to imitate others. It's one of the best ways to learn
Correct, and I did my share of imitating other's games when I was learning. However, I didn't use the same name as the original, and I didn't take copyrighted artwork or music from the originals.
Using the same name is a clear trademark violation, and NAMCO has to tell them to stop, or they risk losing their trademark here.
As far as copyright goes, you can't copyright the idea of a "be chased around a maze while gathering prizes, and have power-ups that sometimes let you chase the monsters" game. However, there are a lot of ways to express that idea in a game, and copyright protects NAMCO's particular expression. There's plenty of room left for someone to do a similar game, but different enough that it incorporates no protected elements. From the descriptions i've read from people who played it before it was taken down, they did not stray far at all from NAMCO's particular expression.
A damned good case can be made that learning how to imitate the idea of something without copying the expression is an important skill that any professional or serious programmer should learn.
The best things in life are free (Score:2)
Information infrastructure to hand it to a lawyer without thinking about the consequences: $20,000,000
Lawyer to send a nasty letter: $400
Telling MIT how to teach: Priceless
COME ON NAMCO (Score:2)
I love Tekken, Soul Calibur, Even Ridge racer is still kind of cool.
NOT COOL GUYS, NOT COOL!
I am still mad at SF4 x Tekken(and vice versa), But I can deal with it.
I dropped capcom for all the stupid crap they have done.
Don't go pissing off your fanbase or we will spend our money elsewhere.
Proposed Federal Law "fair use act" (Score:2)
1) The non-commercial use of a trademark for educational purposes shall not invalidate said trademark
2) The limited use of copyrighted media in a classroom setting consisting of low resolution pictures or video and music clips less than 30 seconds in length for educational purposes shall not be construed as a violation of copyright
3) Any copyrighted book, magazine, DVD, or computer code, that has been out of print or removed from sale for at least 5 years may be duplicated
for non-commercial,educational, a
Re: (Score:2)
Classes that study literature and film need to view the entire piece.
Re: (Score:2)
Under current copyright law, educational use of copyrighted material is already protected under fair use. At least, it should be, but that determination is generally made by a judge, and he doesn't get to make the call unless someone is brave enough (and rich enough) to stand up to a herd of corporate lawyers.
Trademark law has no fair use provision, and is more likely to be enforced. It was not always as zealously enforced as it is now, because corporations did not have eyes and ears everywhere like they do
Re: (Score:2)
Counter-notice (Score:2)
You are irrelevant, and your Pac-man brand is dead (your bad, evolve and keep releasing, or die). No one is trying to rip you off, nor does anyone want to. Get over yourselves.
Sincerely,
Everyone
public school programming (Score:2)
would have liked to see the pacman game, the other I tried looked like the ones we made in public school.
The problem was the reuse of NAMCO IP (Score:2)
The game the Scratch user 124scratch made used graphics ripped off the pacman roms. It is IP theft. Of course, it's questionable if NAMCO should have sent the take down notice, because it's quite silly; this scratch game is not gonna keep NAMCO from profiting from pacman.
What NAMCO should have done is to require 124scratch to put a copyright disclaimer and a link to NAMCO's pacman games' site, encouraging them to try to mimic other NAMCO games.
Call it "Ghosts and Pills!" (Score:2)
If you call it "Ghosts and pills", and don't use any of the original artwork, can they do anything at all?
Re: (Score:2)
Nonono
Call it Ghosts'n'Gobbling
More information! (Score:5, Informative)
This page is a detailed history of Pac Man, including history and information on the different ghosts move algorithms and speed changes... I find it interesting... Read it while you can, its hosted on comcast.....
http://home.comcast.net/~jpittman2/pacman/pacmandossier.html [comcast.net]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/124scratch/1217451 [mit.edu]
It's buggy to be sure, but it has the foundations of a very good port. Which in this case, is a bad thing.
I'll stick with Atari 2600 coding, wher
Re: (Score:2)
My sons primary school teacher sometimes organizes the kids into a game she calls pac man. Its basically Tag with kids organized on a grid in the playground. Its real pac man in real life. I hope they don't get sued.
Re:Learn better (Score:4, Interesting)
The reason answers exist in the back of math textbooks is not for cheating. They are there so you can check your methods and determine if you are going about things the right way.
One of my first programming experiences was making a tic-tac-toe game on the TI-83 my high school gave me. I knew the game already, I knew how it was supposed to look and work, and therefore allowed to me to concentrate on the method only. I had the answer, I just needed to figure out how to get there.
Scratch is a learning tool, aimed at elementary students, perhaps going into high school bit. Maybe the students (assuming they're students) shouldn't have posted the project online, but I encourage them to rip off every game they need to until they're comfortable enough to make their own.
Re: (Score:2)
Modded as troll...oh well. I was just pointing out that making new things is a more enriching experience, but read it as you want then.
Ahem, whatever.
But even if you are creating a new game, general basic mechanics like jumping, firing, steering a ship, etc, all have logical results that are, as the example you provide, just needing to figure how to get there. Even if doing something complex like material systems for items, movement of particles, or dynamic lighting, you do know the ideal outcome, allowing
Re:Do not see that as condescending (Score:5, Interesting)
Except of course that the true purpose of all the "intellectual property", as the mega-corps and their paid-for politicos envision it, is to prevent exactly that and to ensure that no innovation is possible without it "belonging" to one of the "gate keepers" of all future progress who are busily jockeying for the position in this aristocracy.
And it is already nearly so since every thing ever invented or created always builds on the cumulative knowledge of all the discoveries and developments of the past and the recent past is nearly completely patented, copyrighted and locked down. Locked down forever - for all practical purposes from the point of view of a person living less then 100 years.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Do not see that as condescending (Score:4, Insightful)
That is merely an assertion of the "intellectual property" would-be landlords, in fact it is easily disproved: progress existed long before patents, in fact patents were present for something like the last 1% of recorded human history. And before you start talking about how fast that last bit developed, that has nothing whatsoever to do with patents but with easy access to and free exchange of information between scientists and inventors, the very thing that is now being restricted, combined with a critical mass of population density and transportation capabilities. Patents were simply inconsequential, having accounted for only a tiny part of the industrial output of that period, not to mention the fact that some industrial powers (I am looking at you USA) developed precisely because they ignored patents claimed by their former bosses (Britain in this case).
Re: (Score:2)
Look at the successes of a company like Stuller (jewelry business). Their operation is based around the premise that any employee who comes up with a way of saving the company money directly gets half of what the company saves for the first year. With that policy, they've become the single biggest wholesale supplier of findings and mountings, and one of the biggest for stones and finished jewelry. They
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which, according to the True Believers in the "free market" religion, can only be an all-encompassing, boundless, unstoppable and never satiated greed that burns within one's belly like a fire ...
Of course most scientific discoveries were made out of a desire to discover and understand, not even a single penny entering the equation at any time, other then to fund the research with. Most inventions were
Re: (Score:2)
Given that you equate "motivation" with greed and the crap peddled on the late-night infomercials with "inventions" and "progress", further discussion is likely to be a waste of time.
Now, ignoramus, let me explain one thing, since you're obviously amazingly ignorant of the extent of infomercials: the footwear that doubles as a mop is obviously something that falls into your category of useless crap.
But have you seen the rotary power saw with two blades, one rotating in each direction, that is infinitely safer for firefighters to use on a crashed car because it doesn't emit sparks?
That thing is on infomercials.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Except, of course, the counter-rotating blades do nothing whatsoever for sparks as they are the result of friction that does not disappear magically because you got two, three or twenty blades (advanced saws use fluid coolants and lubricants for that) and fire-fighters use hydraulic-operated cutting jaws because they allow f
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I will make an (only one) exception in replying to an AC, further AC comments will be ignored as odds are that you are down-moderating me with your real account.
Your confusion stems from conflating "aesthetics" with corporate activities. While it is true that people might find one thing or another "attractive" those perceptions have long since became subject to manipulation by the "fashion" industry, with the aim of "creating market" for disposable crap. Jewelery is in the sa
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's see it from an evolutionary standpoint: societies that allow themselves to be shackled, bound, and immobilized by excessive red tape (including all
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact that the "intellectual property" crowd has not yet achieved their desired goals completely does not mean that they are not in the process of doing so. With every 100+ year copyright the field of possible gaming ideas that are not covered narrows since there is a finite number of fundamental variations on the interaction with a game and claims o
Re: (Score:2)
you need to perhaps think more about creating something truly original in order to avoid this issue.
So, where does Pacman come into this then?
Re: (Score:2)
I would argue yes, actually!
Because maybe I'm projecting here, but I think that in the heart of most computer programmer nerds is the memory of how they started programming. So automatically the kid gets some slack, just because most us immediately think "haha, that reminds me of the time I tried to make _____ in BASIC, god my version sucked. Taught me to program though...."
So while I have some trouble imagining a scenario where a budding programmer accidentally violates the GPL or something, I think at t
Re: (Score:2)
So automatically the kid gets some slack, just because most us immediately think "haha, that reminds me of the time I tried to make _____ in BASIC, god my version sucked. Taught me to program though...."
I'd like to think that would have been okay. But, once you start posting this stuff on the web, rather than just enjoy it yourself, or among friends, you're inviting a C&D.
So while I have some trouble imagining a scenario where a budding programmer accidentally violates the GPL or something,
Yeah, I wasn't trying to think of an actual, specific situation, just a hypothetical reversal of the situation.
Re: (Score:2)
Except Linux is OSS, so it's not possible to infringe its copyrights and licensing by studying or reimplementing it. So the question wouldn't exist.
Re: (Score:2)
IANAL, or an expert on the GPL, but let's just imagine the students had instead created a Linux distro in binary-only form, and didn't offer the source code as well. Or maybe they ripped off par
Re: (Score:2)
If Linux copyright owners sent a takedown notice to some students even if they were viol
Re: (Score:2)
It's a bit harder to infringe on Linux copyrights considering the whole shebang is licensed under the GPL.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Eh, considering that there are dozens of free alternatives besides this one, I'd say not really.