Early Kinect Games Kill Buyers' Access To Xbox Live 111
Stoobalou writes "Microsoft's Kinect motion controller isn't due to ship until November 4th, but one retailer has jumped the gun, leaving a number of gamers with a bit of a quandary. The un-named distributor has sent what Microsoft describes as 'a very small number' of Kinect systems to lucky buyers who might not consider themselves quite so lucky if they try to use the device and its bundled games. Installing the games will require a firmware upgrade, which is nothing out of the ordinary, but in this case the upgrade hasn't yet been released. Attempting to install the non-existent update seems to fool the console into thinking you are trying to play a pirated game and locks the user out of Microsoft's Xbox Live on-line service."
Just another reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to buy locked down hardware or software, particularly if it requires the permission of a remote server in order to be allowed to function.
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If the alternative is to miss out on cool features like network multiplay, maybe that's a tradeoff that some people are willing to make.
I understand the concept of philosophical purity, but pragmatism has always led to a more comfortable existence. Extremist positions like the one you are espousing may be perfectly fine, but it denies the clear fact that there are definite benefits to the non-pure approach that come with whatever liabilities are inherent in such a system.
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I had no idea I was being a purist or an extremist for not liking DRM and/or other people being able to delete my games that I bought with hard cash.
Furthermore, multiplayer games have worked just fine without DRM.
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And it's not like games with DRM are free of either cheaters or griefers.
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Re:Just another reason (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Just another reason (Score:4, Funny)
and has a simple unobtrusive DRM platform.
Is that something like a condom with only three razor-sharp titanium spikes, rather than six?
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and has a simple unobtrusive DRM platform.
Is that something like a condom with only three razor-sharp titanium spikes, rather than six?
that depends are the three razors on the inside or the outside?
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I don't know where you're seeing "DRM up the ass", since the DRM on Xbox360 is a part of the console itself (firmware + OS), not the individual game discs.
Cheaters ? The only "cheat" I regularly encounter is when the host intentionally screws with their internet connection, resulting in excessive lag to all other players. Overdo it, and the game will eventually choose a more reliable host, but some people seem to have figured out how to ride it very effectively.
Beyond that, once in a blue moon I'll stumbl
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Have you played CODMW2 on 360?
Yes, regularly.
Plenty of cheaters.
How so? Sounds like bullshit.
DRM'd up the ass.
What does that even mean?
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There are even opensource multiplayer games and they work fine too.
Re:Just another reason (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know who told that DRM is needed to prevent cheating , but i must admit , it is a clever way of getting people to support DRM : If you don't support it , you are branded a cheater.
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Much like people that are against the government invading their privacy are criminals/terrorists, right? It makes sense because it's so true and an authority figure told me so!
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"Yeah, if you love playing with cheaters and griefers. LOL"
DRM doesn't eliminate cheaters OR griefers. It hurts paying customers by restricting what they can and cannot do with the game. What gets rid of "cheaters and griefers," if you really want them gone, is a ban function for individual servers.
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There's something seriously wrong with a society which labels common sense as "extremist".
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If the alternative is to miss out on cool features like network multiplay, maybe that's a tradeoff that some people are willing to make.
I play network games on my PC, about 5 nights a week.
Fuck every one of those locked down crap box consoles.
LK
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That's effectively blackmail, since there is no reason why network multiplayer would actually require a drm system like that. We were playing quake online for years before anyone even considered schemes like that.
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Until you happen to buy one of those locked down things where
-the vendor simply switches off the servers (IIRC Electronic Arts "retires" some games after merely two years). This may be illegal, but you still have to start an expensive lawsuit to do something about it.
-or the vendor goes bankrupt and cannot provide the service anymore.
-or a simple bug (as in TFA) locks you out.
For myself, I have settled on a strong but not absolute anti-DRM stance:
Usually I won't buy locked down stuff, but I may make an exce
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Do you realize that you do not need to purchase any DRM-encumbered content in order to enjoy playing online games? You can can buy disc-only games (of which there are hundreds), download only the free updates, and then sell the game when you're done.
As for the lag, now you're just trolling. I play multiplayer games on my Xbox every week, and there's no lag unless something is wrong with the Internet or Microsoft's servers at that time. I certainly doubt that Xbox Live games exhibit any more lag than PC g
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You guys fail to realize that xbox live is a matchmaking service. The games are not hosted on MS's servers. Your xbox is connected to someone elses xbox. Just like a PC is connected to another PC. Live simply points the xboxes at each other. Your lag is a direct result of the connection between you and the xbox which is hosting.
Multiplayer without online (Score:2)
Do you realize that you do not need to purchase any DRM-encumbered content in order to enjoy playing online games?
Maybe I don't want to get teabagged in online games. Maybe I have friends or relatives who like to play together in front of one big monitor [pineight.com]. But because only a small number of geeks have home theater PCs, games with local multiplayer tend to be released only for locked-down consoles.
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You can even buy indie games that are DRM-free and downloaded.
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I enjoyed the 2600, and enjoy my GP2Xs greatly. I'll love my Pandora when it arrives.
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I have a NES and a MegaDrive that I've owned for decades now, and I still get them out and play them every couple of years. I also have a big library of PC games, many of which dating back to the '90s, which I can still play online- either via IP dialling or good old fashioned LAN play.
The fact an X-Box (and most new PC games) seem to have a built in expiry date (as soon as the company gets bored of supporting it) seems like a big step backwards for me. Certainly a disincentive to investing the hundreds upo
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That's why I only buy PC games. They might have online activation DRM. But I wait with buying till they are cracked. This way I support the developers and am also sure I can still play the game 10 years later.
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The fact an X-Box (and most new PC games) seem to have a built in expiry date (as soon as the company gets bored of supporting it)
All disc based console games i've seen so far can be played offline without ever connecting to the internet. If firmware updates are needed then they are included on the game disc. Sometimes you get some bonus dlc if you connect to the internet and register but it's usually nothing major.
PC games are actually worse than console games in this regard, most newer ones require online
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This isn't an anti-piracy measure, it's to keep people from using beta firmwares before Microsoft officially releases them. The Kinect firmware in question was given to a few 10,000 or so who signed up for the update preview program. Xbox Live will not let you sign in on a console with beta firmware unless your gamertag is registered as part of the update program.
In fact, during the NXE update program, they warned users not to swap saves or profiles between then-current FW consoles and ones running the NXE
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I surely can't spend $500 to build a decent gaming PC
It's not just $500; it's up to $2,000 to make a LAN's worth of decent gaming PCs because PC games tend not to have local multiplayer. Compare this to $400 for an Xbox 360 and three extra gamepads, and you start to see where Joe Average Public gets the idea that giving up control of one's purchased hardware is cheaper and easier.
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"It's not just $500; it's up to $2,000 to make a LAN's worth of decent gaming PCs because PC games tend not to have local multiplayer."
Not really the fault of the computer, however.
Fault for lack of console-style PC games (Score:2)
PC games tend not to have local multiplayer.
Not really the fault of the computer, however.
The lack of local multiplayer in PC games appears to be the fault of PC owners for not connecting a PC to the HDTV in the living room, which in turn appears to be the fault of PC makers for not promoting media center PCs or home theater PCs to the public.
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No, I'm pretty sure it's the fault of the game developers. I can see where they are coming from, though. Things like splitscreen support usually aren't added to PC games due to the fact that once you already have multiplayer in the game, it's far easier to rely on that than to code in splitscreen support (which not many people will probably use anyway). Not to mention that I suppose it's kind of awkward doing that on a PC, anyway.
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No, I'm pretty sure it's the fault of the game developers.
Major game developers have an excuse: they think consoles are more profitable for local multiplayer games. They have made the decision based on 1. their size, which can absorb the overhead of developing for locked-down consoles like the Xbox 360, and 2. their observation that PC makers haven't sold enough media center PCs to their audience.
Things like splitscreen support usually aren't added to PC games due to the fact that once you already have multiplayer in the game, it's far easier to rely on that than to code in splitscreen support
If this were true, more PC games would support spawn installation [wikipedia.org]. It appears to me that PC game developers just want to sell two to four copies per household instead of
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Not to mention that I suppose it's kind of awkward doing that on a PC, anyway.
And until a few years ago, I guess it was because the screen sizes and resolutions on a typical PC were lacking.
But today, a quick look into my preferred online shop shows 23" screens with 1920x1080 pixel resolution starting at 150 Euros. HDTV sets with the same resolution and 32" size start at 350 euros.
I guess splitting the 1920x1080 pixels vertically would still leave you with a good enough resolution for most games.
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Actually it has nothing to do with that. The original story got it wrong. What happens is the disk starts the firmware update (pretty standard--think of all the games that try to install direct x when you install them for example). But what happens is the update starts, then it looks online for part 2 of the update. Part 2 of the update has not been uploaded to the xbox live servers quite yet, so the update fails midway. The difference is in this case that there's no way to undo the update you've start
Great news! (Score:3, Insightful)
The more honest buyers get hurt by any form of DRM, including these forms of draconian measures, the better.
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Technically (from Microsoft's point of view) they're not honest - they're breaking the release date and are being punished for it.
If you read most gaming sites that have reported this, the general sheeple consensus is that it serves them right for trying to play early.
Sigh.
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I disagree completely. These customers had no idea the game was not supposed to be played. The shop that released early might be liable, but it is still crap design by Microsoft.
Re:Great news! (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the point. Innocent people whose only "crime" is thinking DRM isn't a bad idea need to get hurt by DRM, or they'll never know why we think it's such a bad idea.
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Technically (from Microsoft's point of view) they're not honest - they're breaking the release date and are being punished for it.
If you read most gaming sites that have reported this, the general sheeple consensus is that it serves them right for trying to play early.
Sigh.
Haha.
What reaction can you expect from a green-with-envy 14-year-old.
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Ah, so the moral of the story is "You shouldn't be pre-ordering official Microsoft products from big-name retailers".
No, wait. It's "You shouldn't be playing games that get delivered to your home without first going to a bricks-and-mortar shop to check the release date with a shop assistant".
Hang on, no. I've got it, it's "You should always cross reference firmware update numbers with your official Microsoft technical support resource before allowing any system modifications to take place".
Actually no, sorr
Slackers (Score:1, Interesting)
I guess this is what happens when you get your big gaming store together hiring the most incompetent store employees in the world - 16 year olds whose first game was Halo. At that point, working for GameStop is more of an ego effect and bragging rights such as kinecting early here.
Where's the TFA? (Score:2)
fool me once (Score:2)
And I know this is not really MS fault, just like it is not MS fault that if I upgrade a computer MS WIndows is considered a pirated copy or if I change computer MS Office is now pirated. It is the
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Yes, this is extremely common too.. Software companies expend huge efforts implementing various drm and license enforcing mechanisms, all that time and added complexity to implement features that at best don't benefit the customer and at worst are extremely detrimental to the paying customers... When instead, all that effort should be focused on improving the product in ways that will benefit those people who actually buy it.
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Strange. I have seen Windows loosing its genuine status a few times - but so far its required nothing more than [WINKEY] + [PAUSE] and pressing Activate Now in order to get it back to its old genuine self.
Well with one exception; the motherboard on a computer broke and had to be replaced - at that time I had to phone up the automated validation system and validate it that way. Curious as to what issues you've had though...
Oh Noes... (Score:3, Insightful)
How terrible, XBox live has a system built in to prevent unauthorized firmware that may well be used for things like hacked games, game trainers and other things that would ruin the experience for other players who have not similarly modified their systems. I know people want to spin this as another "DRM is evil" type story but to use this would be over-reaching. Open platform or not it would be in the best interest of gamers to not have some people with the ability to cheat while other do not. Sure the unauthorized firmware bit can be used to hamper piracy but it's not the only reason to have such a system in place.
The retailers were told not to release the games until a specific date so that shipments could be assured to all stores at the same time for reasons I'm sure include preventing the usual mayhem involved in too few for too many. Microsoft was under no obligation to push the prerequisites to the servers until the date they told everyone the games could be sold. Yes, Microsoft may do a lot of things that aren't appreciated by the open/free software community but this really isn't ammunition for that cause.
Re:Oh Noes... (Score:5, Insightful)
So why should customers suffer for the retailers mistake?
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So why should customers suffer for the retailers mistake?
Then the retailer should make it right. Perhaps provide an extra year of XBox Live for the inconvienence.
It's not like the accounts are blacklisted; the users cannot log into XBox Live until Microsoft releases the updated dashboard.
Wrong. They should mail in the system to MS (Score:2)
That way it can be properly prepared over the course of a week instead of having them wait 1 or 2 days for things to start work naturally working again.
It would be a net win for MS. They get consumer confidence without having to shell out the price for a free membership for the inconvenience, and the customer gets to feel warm and fuzzy.
When people lose access to their one source of killing free time, it is *amazing* how ansy they get. Be a person with a cable subscription, an XBox Like account, or an avi
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Your point regarding how impatient and dependent people get about online services is very valid.
However I stated the retailer should provide the extra membership. None of this is the fault of Microsoft (unless the product was purchased directly from them, which of course is not in this case).
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So why should customers suffer for the retailers mistake?
What do you mean why should they? Who says they should? The retailer and Microsoft made a mistake. This is not much different than if Microsoft had pushed empty boxes through retail outlets and customers got screwed over. Go return the thing to the retailer, ask for money back, and complain to Microsoft support. The particulars of DRM are insignificant here, and the only thing that matters is how the retailer and Microsoft responds, and if they do it again. Same as if they'd done anything else to inco
Re:Oh Noes... (Score:5, Insightful)
I can tell you that Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo and publishers get VERY interested in a retailer that breaks street date. Microsoft can't really be blamed for providing an incomplete update as no one other than beta testers are supposed to have it (and they are warned to NOT move their hard drive around because the update will mess up Xbox360s not in the beta)
Retailers are deathly afraid of breaking street date. Individual stores get fined for breaking it (lots of money - 10s of thousands of dollars easily), and even worse, entire chains can get put on industry blacklists that basically mean they never, ever receive product ahead of time - the product they ordered would be shipped on the release date which means their customers only get the product a few days afterwards (plus the lowered margins since they have to pay for overnight shipping back and forth, and the obvious loss of business when customers leave them because they can't get product on time).
That's why stores breaking street date tend to be rare - I think the last case involved some Atari game that a publisher bought retail from another retailer who broke street date for the publisher only. And the publisher refused to identify who sold it to them which is why Atari blamed them for pirating a game - no one should have a copy. I think the last time it happened resulted in people having to wait for the activation servers to come alive - they had the game, but were locked out from playing it. And gamers often find themselves banned for piracy if playing unreleased games online.
Microsoft's mistake is having a beta update available - but that's a given, since they have people with beta Kinect hardware. The only people who should be getting that update are those in the beta program. To demand that the consoles have the latest firmware available isn't an unusual request - you'll find Sony does the same thing, as does Nintendo, as does Steam should you want to play online to prevent cheating.
This is a rare circumstance - beta testers are warned about moving their hard drives around would screw with Xbox Live connectivity, and this retailer seriously messed up. At the very least, Microsoft would be very interested in talking to those people and would probably pay not only to have those Xboxes and Kinects returned back to Microsoft (and exchanged with new ones), but the retailer is going to pay Microsoft for it all.
It's also interesting that most big-name titles have "DO NOT SELL BEFORE xx/xx/xxxx" printed on the stickers on the game itself too - I would presume Kinect hardware and games have similar markings so it's not as if the retailer didn't know.
My guess is, that retailer or chain is now in some very hot water. Usually these things are handled very quietly, but once it starts hitting the news big-time, heads will roll...
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You'd be wrong actually - there have been a number of high-profile street-date-broken events in recent years, some from smaller retailers that don't like all the attention GameStop et al get, and some from retailers that have employees that just screw up. Just Google "street date broken" and you'll see a long list of events.
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What the hell planet are you from? Street dates get broken all the time. XBL accounts are never banned over it, either. If you are playing a legitimate copy of an early-released game you have nothing to worry about (this Kinect issue excepting).
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The retailer and Microsoft made a mistake. This is not much different than if Microsoft had pushed empty boxes through retail outlets and customers got screwed over.
Microsoft didn't make a mistake, that's the point.
Microsoft has an official release date for Kinect and they were going to have the 360 software updates in place in time to support that launch date. The retailer screwed up and sold the product in advance of it's official well-known launch date, before Microsoft had put the support in place for it. This is completely different than Microsoft pushing empty boxes through. They have a product, they have software needed to support that product, and (as of tod
Fixed (Score:1, Insightful)
So why should Microsoft suffer for the retailers mistake?
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So why should customers suffer for the retailers mistake?
We are well into a long weekend of Halloween partying. What makes you think this was a mistake - and not another run for the gold?
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How is this not an example of DRM being evil? A system so full of trip switches and self-destruct buttons that not even the producer is able to avoid triggering them. When did it become acceptable that a big company can dictate what retailers and end-users can do with their computers which they have paid for and which are rightfully theirs?
A few years down the line these devices will become e-waste because people don't have the freedom to repurpose them for some other task. This way artificial scarcity is m
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A system so full of trip switches and self-destruct buttons that not even the producer is able to avoid triggering them.
That's absolute bullshit. Do you even know what happened here? Unauthorized firmware == ban. It's that simple, and quite frankly i prefer that than having the online component of the game full of cheaters. The side-effect you see here is because a retailer failed to honor their agreement, this is not a DRM issue, it's an issue of an opportunistic and untrustworthy retailer not anticipating the consequences of their actions.
When did it become acceptable that a big company can dictate what retailers and end-users can do with their computers which they have paid for and which are rightfully theirs?
Because it was before the release date, it was agreed that these would not be sold un
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I think the bottom line here is/should be that locking a consumer live account for inserting a purchased game is not a valid course of action. Even if the game was bought from a retailer who let it go out some time before the live date it's still not acceptable. I assume from the article that the firmware update wasn't successful because something was missing and whole system is still in it's original state. Only thing broken is the way Microsoft locked live accounts of these people.
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I think the bottom line here is/should be that locking a consumer live account for inserting a purchased game is not a valid course of action.
Of course not, but as the article states, the accounts were locked for unauthorized firmware. The infrastructure wasn't ready yet but this retailer has broken the release date and sold customers an incomplete product, it's the retailers who should be held accountable.
Huh (Score:2, Funny)
Serves them right (Score:2, Funny)
what happens if... (Score:2)
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You can play single-player completely offline, if you want to. All functions except online play, chat, streaming, and downloads (DLC, updates, etc.) will work just fine even if you remove the network connection entirely.
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Blown out of proportion (Score:2)
I've seen this story going around the last couple of days. Most of us don't have early kinect games, seems like sites like engadget etc that got early access can't play and are making a mountain out of a mole hill. So you can't play your xbox for a couple of days, whoop dee effing do.
This is news why? (Score:1)
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Because it's not a purely accidental bug...
It's an intentional feature which is designed to screw the end user under certain circumstances, which is being triggered by unintended circumstances. If microsoft designed a system to intentionally short out under certain circumstances people would be equally annoyed.
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Efuses, anyone?
Which retailer? (Score:2)
The article refuses to name which retailer shipped early, but does anyone have any idea who did it? I know that just recently, Newegg had messed up and shipped out Rock Band 3 about a month before release.
Questionable conclusion in summary (Score:4, Informative)
Attempting to install the non-existent update seems to fool the console into thinking you are trying to play a pirated game
It's likely that the XBox update is working properly, but the production servers aren't set up to communicate with the new firmware yet. Unless the affected systems don't start working properly on the release date, this is just dumb antimicrosoftism.
Fuck Em' (Score:1, Insightful)
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Sounds accurate. Bricks can't play online with a different version of the software, either.