John Carmack Not Enthused About Android Marketplace 163
An anonymous reader writes "During an in-depth and informative interview, Doom creator and id Software co-founder John Carmack opines on iOS game development, the economics of mobile development vs. console development, why mobile games lend themselves to more risk-taking and greater creativity, and finally, why he's not too keen on the Android Marketplace as a money-making machine. '...I'm honestly still a little scared of the support burden and the effort that it's going to take for our products, which are very graphics-intensive.'"
Rage for Android? (Score:2)
Re:Rage for Android? (Score:4, Interesting)
"now I am eager to see whether it is even possible to port such a demanding 3D game to Android" ;
It Is absolutely possible , let there be no bones about it.
The hardware of latest iPhone is pretty similar to many high end android devices, in fact some Android devices actually have slightly higher specs in terms of horsepower.
Google have the market saturation now though - its time to reign things in a little bit and tighten things up. Perhaps they should consider some sort of
hardware rating system to help developers and consumers have some sort of target to aim for. Better still have some dialogue with luminaries such as Carmack and find a solution.
N.
Re:Rage for Android? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes but that is the problem with Android. I have a one year old Android phone. When I picked it because at the time it was the fastest CPU, had an OLED screen, and used stock Android.
Now it can not play Angry birds and is not getting 2.2 much less 2.3! This is not a super old phone but the Samsung Moment is is a dead end device.
It was the best phone I could get at the time. So if you were to write a game for Android what do you target as the lowend? The Droid? The Epic? The Nexus S?
I like Android but Google needs to "lock down" the manufactures a bit more IMHO. Right now I would buy a Nexus S if Google offered it on Sprint. I am tired of dinking about with vendors skinning Android and with Vendors and Carriers not updating the OS.
What I would like to see is for Google to certify some phones as Google Prime or some such thing. They would have stock Android and would get updates right from Google. Sort of a Nexus but one that any manufacture can make and any carrier can carry.
Android counterpart to iPod touch (Score:2)
The hardware of latest iPhone is pretty similar to many high end android devices, in fact some Android devices actually have slightly higher specs in terms of horsepower.
But what Android device is comparable to the iPod touch 4? The more powerful Android phones typically aren't available in a non-cell-phone version without 3G and without a price tag set with the expectation of a carrier subsidy in mind.
Re: (Score:2)
Archos 43? Except that it lacks various sensors, so Google will not ok Market being bundled with said device.
Basically, there have been many non-phone Android devices made. But none of them are "Google Android" devices as they lack some requirement or other (before 2.x Google actually required devices to be phones). And it is not a small list. There is accelerometer, compass, gps, camera of a certain minium quality (and with 2.2 and later, bluetooth). I can understand the accelerometer, but the compass, gps
Re: (Score:2)
To be absolutely correct, the iPhones have worse hardware than the Androids. Original iPhone, iPhone 3G - 400MHz CPU. G1 - 525MHz CPU. iPhone 3GS - 600MHz CPU, everyone else running 800+MHz CPUs. iPhone4 - 800MHz CPU, high-end Androids - 1GHz. iPhones have lower end hardware compared to the high-end Android devices. Sure there are architect
Re: (Score:2)
But that is the thing, it's not about "Porting to Android" anymore, it becomes about "Porting for Specific Device".
Carmack wrote Rage not for the iOS, but specifically for the two GPUs the iOS currently runs on. He even made note that had he known more on the specs he may had just gone to support the latest one (shared by iPhone 3gs, 4, iPod 3rdGen, 4rthGen, iPad)
With Android, you have a huge array of specs, and measuring the CPU speed alone is not enough, you need more info on each unit and their GPU,
Java has worked its evil again... (Score:2)
Android's biggest strength is also its biggest weakness - Java.
Re:Rage for Android? (Score:5, Informative)
Have you RTFA? He talks nothing about fragmentation:
The HD version of Rage is 1.4GB installed, and all the world geometry is using 2-bit PowerVR texture compression. If we went to one of the other platforms that's not PowerVR-based, we'd be stuck with a 4-bit texture compression format, and that pushes the size over 2GB. And the Android Marketplace doesn't even let you download more than 20 or 30MB, and you have to end up setting up your own server and doing your own transfer for all of that. Dealing with the user interface of managing space... there's a lot of things that happen automagically for us on iOS that we'll have to deal with particularly on the Android space. And that's not a lot of work that's going to be huge heaps of fun to do. It's going to be dreary, tedious work that I would certainly push on somebody else personally, but I'm not sure that even as a company it's something that we want to be involved in.
Even in the old days of the feature phone world, we always had EA Mobile or JAMDAT to build the 300 or 400 SKUs that they had for all the worldwide feature phone splits that we had from our four base versions. And we may yet wind up partnering with somebody else to do that level of broad support, but that's a little less satisfying when we're doing something that's pushing the limit graphically, because you don't have a second-tier company port your stuff to other graphics architectures and expect it to remain cutting-edge.
Basically, he needs Steam for Android.
Re:Rage for Android? (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is why Value ate their lunch. As I said in another post: Valve/Bioware/Blizzard see opportunity while Carmack worries about it being hard or boring work.
Re:Rage for Android? (Score:4, Interesting)
So that's why Valve/Bioware/Blizzard have ported their games to Android...oh, wait.
Carmack's technology is on the cutting edge of real-time 3D rendering, so of course he's going to worry more about supporting hardware platforms and their specific features. Bioware targets consoles which are fixed in features, Valve targets hardware of yesteryear, and Blizzard targets hardware from the stone age, so their concerns are obviously going to be a little different than id Software's.
It sounds to me like some people are just annoyed that Carmack is being critical of their beloved Android platform.
Re: (Score:2)
You hear what you want to hear. If you wanted an Android specific example, it doesnt take long to see Gameloft has setup their own (Steam-like) market, completely shutting out Google. They clearly see a chance to make some money (though they are not without complaint towards Android either).
But that wasn't the topic at hand. It was an analogy as to why Carmack hasn't had as much success as he could have on the PC and console platforms.
The purpose of the analogy was that he *could* see challenge as opport
Re: (Score:2)
Have you RTFA? He talks nothing about fragmentation:
The HD version of Rage is 1.4GB installed, and all the world geometry is using 2-bit PowerVR texture compression. If we went to one of the other platforms that's not PowerVR-based, we'd be stuck with a 4-bit texture compression format, and that pushes the size over 2GB. And the Android Marketplace doesn't even let you download more than 20 or 30MB, and you have to end up setting up your own server and doing your own transfer for all of that. Dealing with the user interface of managing space... there's a lot of things that happen automagically for us on iOS that we'll have to deal with particularly on the Android space. And that's not a lot of work that's going to be huge heaps of fun to do. It's going to be dreary, tedious work that I would certainly push on somebody else personally, but I'm not sure that even as a company it's something that we want to be involved in.
Even in the old days of the feature phone world, we always had EA Mobile or JAMDAT to build the 300 or 400 SKUs that they had for all the worldwide feature phone splits that we had from our four base versions. And we may yet wind up partnering with somebody else to do that level of broad support, but that's a little less satisfying when we're doing something that's pushing the limit graphically, because you don't have a second-tier company port your stuff to other graphics architectures and expect it to remain cutting-edge.
Basically, he needs Steam for Android.
That part sounded to me like he was worried about fragmentation, and what it would mean to have some other company port your software in order to offload the burden of dealing with the fragmentation. But his idea of fragmentation (different base graphics hardware) is different than what some people have complained about (different manufacturer-added UI augmentation) because games use more native code. He definitely mentions that the Android Market not allowing large app downloads is an issue, but it seems
Re: (Score:2)
That part sounded to me like he was worried about fragmentation, and what it would mean to have some other company port your software in order to offload the burden of dealing with the fragmentation. But his idea of fragmentation (different base graphics hardware) is different than what some people have complained about (different manufacturer-added UI augmentation) because games use more native code. He definitely mentions that the Android Market not allowing large app downloads is an issue, but it seems like he was more worried about supporting all the different hardware configurations.
Where exactly did you get that idea from? The two things that he specifically calls out is that 2-bit compression which iOS has versus the 4-bit compression that Android allows adds an additional half gigabyte or so of data to the program. And that even if it did support 2-bit compression he couldn't serve the files via the market as it would be approximately 1.6gb over sized so he'd have to set up his own servers.
That's not a fragmentation issue like you're suggesting it is, people suggest that there's
Re: (Score:2)
No, he did call out a fragmentation issue: The one in the graphics hardware. Because of the different chips used, he can't use the 2-bit compression that he can use on iOS.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not a fragmentation issue like you're suggesting it is, people suggest that there's some sort of fragmentation problem, but Google has that figured out and the only people that are harmed by it are people who bought early Android phones and ones with custom UI. Pretty much all the newer ones should be easily handled by somebody with the technical skills that John has.
How many Android phones do not have a custom UI? Or are you not referring to things like TouchWiz, MOTOBLUR, and Sense? Also, for every big android phone of the month like EVO, Galaxy S, Nexus One, G2, or Nexus S, there are at least 20 new phones with near minimum specs and Android 1.6 or 2.1 if you are lucky. Don't get me wrong, I love my EVO, but with graphically intensive games it helps to have less hardware and software differences to compensate for. If they only target, say, phones with Froyo and 1 Ghz
Re: (Score:2)
read between the lines.. and read the line you included in your post:
what the hell does this mean, and how is Steam for Android going to help?
"300 or 400 SKU's that they had to for all the worldwide feature phone splits that we had from our four base versions" ...while not FEATURE phones, there have to be at least 100 SKU's running some flavor of Android. Steam will address the download cap, but how does Steam make cutting edge graphics run well on older machines?
Angry Birds guys have addressed this already
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, he did:
Even in the old days of the feature phone world, we always had EA Mobile or JAMDAT to build the 300 or 400 SKUs that they had for all the worldwide feature phone splits that we had from our four base versions. And we may yet wind up partnering with somebody else to do that level of broad support, but that's a little less satisfying when we're doing something that's pushing the limit graphically, because you don't have a second-tier company port your stuff to other graphics architectures and expect it to remain cutting-edge.
He is talking there about having some one else deal with the "fragmentation" or "splits", but also mentions it is not really an option with such graphically intensive games.
He specifically mentions fragmentation (Score:3)
Uh, he specifically mentions fragmentation:
"Even in the old days of the feature phone world, we always had EA Mobile or JAMDAT to build the 300 or 400 SKUs that they had for all the worldwide feature phone splits that we had from our four base versions."
Steam for Android wouldn't magically solve that.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not a bad idea. A new marketplace, directed solely at games. The only things it would have to do really well are search, and basically telling you if your phone can even handle Game X. I don't know if it should allow you to buy regardless, though.
Re:Rage for Android? (Score:5, Insightful)
It costs money, it costs time, it costs support post-launch. Unable? No. Unwilling? If the return on investment (both monetary and effort) isn't there, then yes.
Remember that before Quake Live, Id games' online support basically consisted of a master server that just gave you a list of servers, and an FTP server with patches that relied on popular mirror sites to prevent it from going down due to demand (which it sometimes still did when new patches were released). They didn't even host their own servers, much less their own online distribution platform for the assets of the entire game. And Quake Live is basically an 11 year old game at this point. The size of the assets, method of distribution, and demand for the game are all going to be different (smaller) from a brand new AAA title like Rage is intended to be.
If Apple does the hosting for you, but Android does not (for files over 30 MB), that's a huge difference.
Re: (Score:3)
You can distribute only the exe through the Market which will download (during the first run) rest of application data to SD card.
The rest of the data still has to be served somewhere, somehow. Different methods may yield better result but does not solve the fundamental problem JC touched on.
Re:Rage for Android? (Score:4, Interesting)
His main complaint and one that I can't argue with is that he can't serve the file through the market place and as a result he'd have to set up his own server and override the wisdom people have of not getting Android apps from unknown sources.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Rage for Android? (Score:4, Interesting)
I've got a Nexus One and often times due to crappy reception the updates I'm trying to download will freeze out and have to be restarted. I would assume that Apple has a more bandwidth efficient way of doing it if they're allowing such large files to be downloaded. Even requiring certain ones to be downloaded via the computer or WiFi would likely go a long way.
Re: (Score:2)
You can distribute only the exe through the Market which will download (during the first run) rest of application data to SD card*.
*strategy void for Nexus S owners.
Re: (Score:2)
There's a fundamental difference between phones and console/PC architectures. Consoles are known, fairly stable quantities. If you develop for a console, your development strategy is pretty much guaranteed to be stable for at least three or four years.
Ditto the PC - If you develop a game for DirectX or OpenGL, you can be confident that the platform will be stable for a while, and there are plenty of tools to make sure your graphics and audio work well on multiple environments.
On Android, you develop your ap
Re: (Score:3)
Really? Is it guaranteed that all phones can be upgraded? I've seen various CNET video podcast reviews of phones _recently_ that still shipped with 1.x (I think 1.5 or 1.6) on them. These were low end phones. Can they all be upgraded, even if there were phone maker upgrades (i.e. the various extra UI things they add on).
I'm just curious, I'm not going to get an Android phone. The CNET reviewers seemed surprised that
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Carmack is abandoning his roots in favour of console development.
Duh. That's why every time we see Rage, it's being played with Xbox controllers. It's already hard for me to give Id Software the benefit of doubt after Doom3, but they're making it really hard with Rage. This coming from someone who still routinely plays Quake3 on his server!
Wired Xbox 360 controllers work with PCs (Score:2)
That's why every time we see Rage, it's being played with Xbox controllers.
By "Xbox controllers", did you mean original Xbox controllers (highly unlikely) or Xbox 360 controllers? Wired Xbox 360 controllers work with PCs out of the box, except games that haven't been updated to support XInput along with DirectInput can't read the sum of LT and RT, only their difference.
Re: (Score:2)
Xbox 360 controllers.
I have two of them for my PC that I use for things like Street Fighter IV.
I don't think that showing off a first-person-shooter with Xbox controllers really gives me a sense of hope however. :P
Re: (Score:2)
Id never had as much money as Valve got from HL and CS. They could never have made the investment necessary to create Steam without getting permanent support from a publisher who would have ruined it before it left the cradle out of fear of it destroying them. And I don't know why you even mentioned Bioware, they don't make FPS games and they use Steam, like Id does, and EA has owned them for 3 years (which from some perspectives means that Id ate their lunch by lasting longer as an independent game company
Re: (Score:2)
Id never had as much money as Valve got from HL and CS. They could never have made the investment necessary to create Steam without getting permanent support from a publisher who would have ruined it before it left the cradle out of fear of it destroying them.
Quite so! Everyone knows that a lack of funds is why Carmack could never fulfill his dreams of spaceflight. [armadilloaerospace.com]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
You got the wrong John.
Re: (Score:2)
Suck it down?
Re: (Score:2)
Who have moved exclusively to consoles?
Capcom made Street Fighter IV for PC, PS3, and Xbox 360, but the "Super SFIV" update dropped PC support due to low sales.
Re: (Score:2)
Uhuh, pick one game that never should have touched a PC in the first place.
Why not have fighting games on a PC? PCs can display on TVs ever since Best Buy stopped selling CRT SDTVs in favor of LCD and plasma HDTVs, just about all of which have VGA+audio and HDMI inputs. If, for example, MUGEN were for consoles, how would its developer have become licensed by the console makers first?
Re: (Score:3)
Slim AMD PC (Score:2)
Hell even the bottom of the line AMD machines have nice Radeon IGPs that play games just fine.
So can you recommend a make and model of bottom-of-the-line AMD machine in a slimline form factor that I can in turn recommend to friends and family? Google slim AMD PC pulled up this eMachines product [tigerdirect.com] as the first result; is it any good? Or this Compaq [directron.com]?
Re: (Score:2)
Do it *my*self (Score:2)
if you aren't afraid to DIY [...] and don't mind DIY
Ultimately, I'm trying to recommend a PC for playing a specific PC game. It doesn't have to be absolutely tiny like a Mac mini or a Wii, but I'd prefer not much bigger than an Xbox 360. Most of the PCs with that kind of form factor that I've seen in Best Buy have had Intel GMA (Graphics My You-Know-What). Were I to go DIY, I'd have to build each box, sell it online, ship it to buyers (or give Amazon its cut for fulfillment), and handle any tech support issues myself.
Re: (Score:2)
My rant, again (Score:2)
without knowing the game it is just a shot in the dark.
The game currently exists only as design documents; I'm asking this as part of my market research to complete my business plan. But it will allow up to four players to play at once, and it won't be too much more graphically complex than WoW. Some scenes will use a split screen, but others will show all players in the same room in much the sa
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If you buy a game for "Windows"... it never works out of the box. Hell there are so many PC's being sold right now that won't even play 10 year old games. Who should I blame?
Funny, I was just tweaking a DOS utility I use for calibrating my parallel-port based force meter yesterday. And I'm doing the software development (MSVC 1.52c for DOS) on my Windows 7 x64 Ultimate platform. Seems like 20 year old software that runs only on DOS, and directly accesses the hardware works on the latest and greatest Windows platform.
I think you should blame trolls like yourself...
Re: (Score:3)
The last... 50 or so (random number)... Windows games I bought, all worked out of the box. The last 1 Mac game I tried to play, didn't.
Of course they won't. You need a Mac to run it on.Sheesh.
And I thought that gamers were smart...
Re: (Score:2)
Which game was it?
And do you actually have a Mac, or did you try to install it on Windows. If you had "50" Windows games, I would assume you were flush with assorted PC hardware over a few generations.
The only Mac game I have come across that doesn't work very well is EvE Online, more because it's a hideous, hideous hack job, shoved into an emulation container that causes weird graphical errors after you quit it. It also crashes after a couple of hours unless you restart it - I think it has a memory leak. G
Re: (Score:2)
My point was solely about addressing the Mac point, not talking about the Windows side of thing. Your single data point was pretty much your argument for saying "well, in my experience, 100% of Mac games don't work out of the box, and my 50 Windows games that all work prove the reverse."
The main issues I see with games not working on Windows are down to things like aggressive DRM or anti copy measures, like failing to run if you have two CD drives, or dropping you out of the game if you lose internet connec
Message to Google HQ! (Score:3)
Google, are you listening? .. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS !!!!
There should be no reason for to be grumbling about things like this - I would at least hope Google should be listening to when people like John Carmack have something to say. Particularly when there is so much of an opportunity here when other Android devices start hitting the shelves eg: GoogleTV may be a much more viable gaming platform. I say Fix this Meme - as soon as possible - a little brown nosing might be in order.
N.
Hardware incompatibility beyond Google's control (Score:5, Insightful)
iOS has two advantages. A single native binary can target all iPhone, iPod touch and iPad devices. There is a single digital distribution channel, the App Store.
With Android handset/tablet manufacturers are free to use different CPUs, GPU, etc. They may also be using different versions of Android. Different versions of the game may be necessary for the different permutations. This complicates the coding and testing. Having to deal with manufacturer specific stores might add to the overhead. These sort of problems are the "cost" of having an open platform like Android and there is not really anything Google can do about it.
Re: (Score:2)
You can set what android version you are targeting in the market, I also belive that the latest version of android comes with a minimum hardware spec,
Re:Hardware incompatibility beyond Google's contro (Score:4, Insightful)
It's the Computer vs Console battle all over again. In the end, someone came out with an API for games (Direct3d), and therefore the problem was minimized quite a lot. As handheld devices become more powerful, someone will introduce an API that makes game programming much easier for Android devices.
Re:Hardware incompatibility beyond Google's contro (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do you assume Google cares? You are not their customer (unlike Apple). The carrier is Google's customer. You are just eyeballs for advertising.
Google wins when every crappy phone has Android on it, regardless of the end user's experience. They don't need quality, they need quantity. Being able to use different GPUs and CPUs is critical because that is why you can find Android phones for 1/4 the cost of the high end smart phones.
Re: (Score:2)
The carrier is Google's customer.
If Google wants more customers, then why hasn't it made more of an effort to expand Android past phones? Google could compete with iPod touch by allowing access to its Market from portable media players such as those made by Archos.
Re: (Score:2)
Have you completely missed all the Android-based tablets, or the Google TV?
Android is all over the place in embedded consumer systems.
No Market and not sold in stores (Score:2)
Have you completely missed all the Android-based tablets
The two Best Buy stores in my home town appear to have "completely missed all the Android-based tablets". Each store has the Archos 7 and one other 7" tablet, and that's it. No Archos 5, no Archos 43, and those that are there don't have official access to Android Market but instead have AppsLib, which has a far smaller selection. The fact that telephones have Android Market but tablets have AppsLib is part of the fragmentation that Mr. Carmack complains about. And as for buying an Archos tablet online befor
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
High level languages need not be slower than low level languages?
Not that I believe that myself.
Although in theory low level languages can always be faster, the real-world situation is that a high level language with good optimisation is likely to be faster than the low level language because tweaking of the low-level code is limited by cost and timescale constraints.
Re:Hardware incompatibility beyond Google's contro (Score:4, Informative)
In my experience it's the other way around. In theory managed languages (stuff like C# and Java) can be better optimized since you have more information at runtime but in practice I've never seen any useful code written in those languages outperform similar stuff in C or C++.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
C++0x support in major compilers (Score:2)
With the new C++0x
How long until an application targeting both GCC and Microsoft Visual C++ can use C++0x features?
Runtime can offer a little more protection in the event of poorly written code
Worse yet, code written by third parties. As I understand it, sandboxing of native code isn't yet to the point where one can just load in a DLL and specify fine-grained privileges on what it may access, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
Re: (Score:2)
I suppose until the standard is truely finalized nothing can really be said to have "full" support. As far as the subset of what is existing now, a simple search finds the existing GCC [gnu.org] and VC10 [msdn.com] supported features.
Re: (Score:2)
High level languages need not be slower than low level languages?
Not that I believe that myself.
Although in theory low level languages can always be faster, the real-world situation is that a high level language with good optimisation is likely to be faster than the low level language because tweaking of the low-level code is limited by cost and timescale constraints.
These companies are paying that cost and spending that time though, and they have a lot of experience at it
Assembly is faster than c/c++ (Score:2)
Although in theory low level languages can always be faster, the real-world situation is that a high level language with good optimisation is likely to be faster than the low level language because tweaking of the low-level code is limited by cost and timescale constraints.
No. In the real world c/c++ is usually faster than assembly because most programmer are poor assembly language programmers. However good assembly language programmers routinely beat the compiler. I've added a couple of fps to a game by identifying a couple of key points in the code via profiling and replacing c/c++ code with about 100 lines of assembly. Its not simply a matter of optimizing the scheduling of instructions and memory access, its also the fact that the programmer has more information about wha
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"I am actually a game developer who wishes to remain anonymous. I code strictly in native code. "
Really you code in straight x86 assembly language?
You don't use any game engines?
Do you really?
"I tend to code for x86 and PPC both all the time. The only difference in a well designed codebase is the extra compile time. "
I guess not.
You probably code in c or c++ those are not low level languages. C++ sure isn't. I have heard c called a mid level language but low level means assembly as does native.
So now that w
Native as opposed to managed (Score:2)
low level means assembly as does native.
I thought native meant languages intended for an unmanaged environment, such as C or standard C++, as opposed to languages intended for a managed environment, such as Java, C#, Python, VB.net, or the verifiably type-safe version of C++/CLI.
Re: (Score:2)
It can but C#, Java, Python, and VB.net can all be compiled to assembly.
Native and low level are really very nebulous terms. ,compiled, and interpreted. Compiled and interpreted had everything to do with implementation and not the language. I have used interpreted COBOL and compiled Basic.
It used to be just assembly
Then you had the virtual machine languages. The first famous one was Pascal. Pascal originally compiled down to P code. Those systems where all the rage for a while in universities between Pascal
Re: (Score:2)
It can but C#, Java, Python, and VB.net can all be compiled to assembly.
As a JIT compiler with the bytecode appended. And good luck trying to get C# to run efficiently on a handheld device with 4 MB of RAM of which tens of millions have been sold; you'll probably have to port the whole VM too.
Then you had the virtual machine languages.
And as you start to point out, the difference between these and the modern managed languages is an implementation issue.
But in the end unless you are writing in assembly language you are not programming really doing anything "native". Every modern compiler takes whats you write and then applies optimizations.
People who code for embedded systems often look at what the optimizer is putting out and use that to figure out what hints to give the compiler (such as use of the restri
Re: (Score:2)
Never ran because the code would have blown chunks.
Managed code can let terrible code run that would have suffered massive memory leaks or other issues with under c.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks that is why I said I wasn't sure. I know that early versions did not use the JIT.
I am not a fan of the NDK concept. It seems to be a band-aid for short comings in the the Java system and now you need to worry about differences in the different CPUs.
Done correctly the NDK would generate fat binaries for the different levels of ARM. Maybe it does but I see versions of some of the NDK programs in the app store.
One should not have to know what ISA your phone supports.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Steam for Android? (Score:2)
From what I could understand from TFA, the problem is with the limitations of the Marketplace, not Android itself.
If a distribution service with support for games' specific problems is needed, wouldn't there be a market opportunity in developing a Steam-like app with its own distribution service and game library management?
The only problem I can see is that apps can't install other apps, but they can download the APK and call the installer for it, so it might not be that problematic...
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe, but then you start having to support multiple distribution points, chances are with their own rules, and own payout rules, etc.. That starts to be a hassle. One thing that Apple makes easy is one place that handles all the hosting and payments. Yeah, 30% sounds like a lot, but right now the costs of maintaining our own servers and doing our own marketing for our desktop app accounts for 40% of the costs. I have one full-time employee doing nothing but handling the payments and another maintaining
Re: (Score:2)
On the contrary, if a Steam like app was developed, you could have one distribution point for all the mobile platforms except the iPhone/Pad, because Apple wouldn't allow it (it's competition to their store).
And it could handle all the hosting and payments, so I don't see the downside compared to the Apple App Store.
AT&T lacks "Unknown sources" (Score:2)
if a Steam like app was developed, you could have one distribution point for all the mobile platforms except the iPhone/Pad, because Apple wouldn't allow it (it's competition to their store).
Not really. Like Apple, Google chooses not to carry Market alternatives to the store. So the user would have to turn on "Unknown sources" and install a Market alternative through an APK, but AT&T has customized the firmware on its Android phones, such as Motorola Backflip and HTC Aria, to keep "Unknown sources" permanently off.
Search results: over 9000 (Score:2)
but right now the costs of maintaining our own servers and doing our own marketing for our desktop app accounts for 40% of the costs.
App Store doesn't do all the marketing for you. Helping users find and choose your app from among the myriads of apps in the App Store is your job. If promoting your application with advertisements is 10% of the costs, then you're breaking even with Apple's cut.
Re: (Score:2)
A myriad [wikipedia.org] is over 9000.
My goodness! A quantity Nazi. Slashdot always delights...
Carmack Makes Other Valid Points (Score:4, Interesting)
That which apply to both Android and iPhone.
In that touch screen interfaces are a burden to game design.
"You're somewhat hampered by the touch interface—there's a lot of places where tactile controls really are better—but you can definitely do a lot."
Its possible to get creative - but it doesnt matter how many polygons NG smartphones can push - a touch screen is not a good interface for Doom 3 for example.
Re: (Score:2)
Its possible to get creative - but it doesnt matter how many polygons NG smartphones can push - a touch screen is not a good interface for Doom 3 for example.
Its not even much good for Doom 1.
Re: (Score:2)
Having played Doom 1 on my first-gen iPod Touch, I must say that it works fine. The biggest problem for basic gameplay was that my fingers were in the way all of the time, and the first-gen lacked any manner of speaker.
Back on the topic of Android and gaming: I've seen some really incredible graphics on that old iPod (and Doom wasn't it), but with my fancy-pants overclocked Droid the most impressive game I've seen is Angry Birds.
IIRC, Google Earth runs better on my iPod than on the Droid, too.
But so what?
Re: (Score:2)
Having played Doom 1 on my first-gen iPod Touch, I must say that it works fine
Having played doom 1 on my first gen ipod, and iphone 3G I must disagree.
The first couple levels were playable.
The later levels at advanced difficulty were not playable because the controls were too limited.
Re: (Score:2)
a touch screen is not a good interface for Doom 3 for example.
... but it's the perfect interface for Angry Birds, or Slitherlink, or Small World.
I'm sure someone could conceive of a game that's graphically demanding and suits touch screens. Whether it would be more compelling than the existing, less graphically intensive offerings, is another matter.
Re: (Score:2)
it's the perfect interface for Angry Birds, or Slitherlink, or Small World.
I've got a 3gs, it runs Carmack's Rage rail shooter quite well, but Angry Birds really seems to have a problem with responsiveness and smoothness. In general, you can get a lot of graphical punch from the same resources used to cover inefficient coding. Seems like the Angry Birds developer need more computational grunt much more than JC does.
Re: (Score:2)
I havea 3GS too, the responsiveness issues may be related to its Gamecenter integration. It stutters frequently when I have wireless or 3G on, but I was in airplane mode one time and found it was back to it's usual smoothness.
Not to excuse the devs, they should still improve whatever code is causing the stuttering.
Re: (Score:2)
"are a burden to game design" (Score:2)
touch screen interfaces are a burden to game design
Any more than gamepads "are a burden to game design" on consoles? Or small screens that only one person can comfortably fit around at a time "are a burden to game design" on desktop PCs? Different platforms have different favorite genres.
I agree with Carmack (Score:4, Interesting)
For instance, there was some fuss being made over Angry Birds. I decide to check it out. It shows up in my app market, there are no limits listed so I download it. It fails. No error message than it's not gonna happen. Was it a bad net connection or was my phone not up to it? Fuck if I know.
Google maps was updated and crashing constantly (like upon boot up) and as long as it went on I suspect it was only happening to older versions like mine (1.6). Another app bricked my Android and considering I mainly only use Google made apps and connect bot it's not like I'm downloading shit.
The hardware guys aren't willing to update my software and Google isn't doing enough to guarantee I only see apps I can run. That's shit and something like Rage would cause such a hassle for ID, imo, so I wouldn't bother if I were them.
"Enthused" is not a word (Score:2)
He can be enthusiastic, but he cannot be "enthused".
"But but but it's in the dictionary, LLOOLLOLO!"
Most dictionaries are written by descriptivists who record how language is used, even if it is wrong.
Re: (Score:3)
.. and an ugly game.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Right, but that doesn't address what I said. Procedurals are ugly, that's why we don't use them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They're ugly because the concept of procedurals isn't so hot. In essence you're trying to reconstruct an image based on mathematical formulas. In theory it's great because you can have detail at any resolution. In practice, they're not that realistic, they're easy to spot, and the algorithm tends to only look convincing at certain sizes. You get a lot more mileage out of using actual photographs for textures. When you use procedurals, it's like back in the original Playstation days when all the games p
Re: (Score:2)