Like a Redstone Cowboy 166
neonsignal writes "Machine creations in Minecraft are becoming increasingly complex as people build on each other's ideas. Some notable examples include a Rubik's cube simulator, a 5-channel music sequencer, a 3D color printer, a 16-bit processing unit, and Conway's Game of Life. My own recent contribution is the world's slowest Universal Turing Machine. I'm now waiting for someone to implement Tetris in Redstone logic."
"My own recent contribution: (Score:1, Funny)
What am I missing here... (Score:5, Insightful)
Disclaimer: I haven't ever played Minecraft, so I might not understand the fuss properly. Please feel free to educate :)
Haven't games within games been around for a heck of a long time? There are loads of mods that either emulate classics or offer a totally new unrelated game to players. Heck, I recall even playing texas hold em with guildies during raids through an ingame mod when I was playing Warcraft.
What is so special about minecraft that it makes so many stories? Is it just purely flexibility and users being imaginative, or is there a particular reason that /. loves it so? I recall a post a few months ago about a guy who recreated a good portion of a Star Trek ship in minecraft. Was it merely a slow news day then as well?
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mindfuck is easy.
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Not sure, I'd call it game, Minecraft is more like 3d paintbrush.
Re:What am I missing here... (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of it is that it's hard to actually make anything using in-game redstone wiring, in the same way that it would be tricky but nerdily rewarding to make a 16-bit ALU using discrete transistors and wires on a breadboard. It also requires digging around in interesting and often surprising environments to actually *get* the redstone to make this stuff, so it's makes a good time sink for addictive personalities. It's pretty different from writing a mod for a game in some scripting language.
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I'm very much an addictive personality *and* an actual digital designer. My personal reaction to Minecraft's "redstone" crap was a resounding "meh", though.
In the same amount of effort and time that it takes to build a slow, useless piece of Minecraft logic, I can build something actually interesting in an FPGA by instantiating and placing LUTs (a marginally higher abstraction level than redstone), and have it run at 500 MHz.
After doing ASIC design, even FPGA design feels a bit like playing with Lego bricks
Re:What am I missing here... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that You are not getting it.
You are right on all accounts but ignore the reason why building minecraft machina in a sandbox is more fun than programing an FPGA: Minecraft still is a game, programing FPGA's on the other hand is at best a hobby (if not straight out work for some). So it is the gamelike qualities that encourage for this. The fact that you can have Friends pop into the server your sandbox lives in and help out (or destroy everything). It is the community that you belong to when doing this.
Don't look at this quantitatively, this is not a survival game in a free economy, this is doing things because you can.
And that is true nerd spirit!
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Dunno, I really enjoy Minecraft otherwise (building, pretty landscapes, running around with friends), but redstone logic feels not only like work, but like the most unpleasant part of my work - what I'd call "the drudgery".
And not only it's like work, but it's also ultimately pointless. You are not exploring new frontiers, you are trying to recreate 1960s tech with wood sticks.
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So, now you know how it felt to be a scribe in the monastery, copying books all day :)
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you are trying to recreate 1960s tech with wood sticks.
Now your getting it.
Really, is building 1960's tech with sticks, any more ridiculous than lighting a fire with sticks? Sure, I could just use a lighter or a match, but it is cool that I can do it with tech no more advanced than a length of rope.
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I agree. But man, this 3D minecraft logic looks beautiful. Maybe someone needs to make a 3D language that looks like mineraft and translates into Verilog or VHDL :)
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Most who do things like the submission tend to just give themselves the materials if they don't outright use something like WorldEdit to do the work.
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it would be tricky but nerdily rewarding to make a 16-bit ALU using discrete transistors and wires on a breadboard
Not very tricky. Much simpler than a 3D printer in minecraft. The problemw ith minecraft is that its simulator has glitches, and can mis-simulate when the machine load is high, etc. It's a game, and the simulation logic tries not to lag the display. This makes it non-deterministic AFAIK. It's unfortunate. If you watch the 3D printer video, he has to tweak things all the time -- almost just like with real-world Rube Goldberg contraptions that often work 1 out of 20 times end-to-end.
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Once you get down to a deep enough level and finally start getting redstone, it usually isn't (from my own experience) all that difficult to keep getting more. The trick is getting down to it in the first place and staying alive when you open a new underground chamber filled with critters or monster spawners if you are really challenged.
Yes, you can cheat too, in a huge variety of ways. There isn't even just one "cheat" as even that is customizable.
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To be totally truthful (fair?) to the casual reader, you cannot make infinitely large creations because mechanics (redstone, pistons, et al.) do not operate if you are too far away.
Re:What am I missing here... (Score:4, Interesting)
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But with DF you are limited on the embark area... so you have to balance your options.
The interesting thing (to me) is that DF requires that you build your contraptions using actors (the dwarfs) instead of manually placing all the items yourself. So you have to balance a population of labor's needs with your final goal. You can, of course, cheat in both games. But I still wouldn't place DF on a throne of gold. Toady can only do so much and it feels like things are slowing down.
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Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft are two completely different games. Both are centred on 3D discrete block grids. The similarities end there.
Minecraft is a 3D first person interactive environment manipulation game. Dwarf Fortress is a quasi-interactive, procedurally generated, virtual world simulation. In Minecraft, players make their own fun. In Dwarf Fortress, players are told that "Losing is Fun". In Minecraft, the ultimate goal is to make epic creations. In Dwarf Fortress, the ultimate goal is to make epics [timdenee.com]
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Once again minecraft shows itself to be dwarf fortress' [mkv25.net] inferior cousin. This is not the only example.
Having played both, I'd say you are comparing SimCity to Doom. If it wasn't for DF's hellishly inconsistent interface, I could still enjoy them all. Nethack was a joy compared to this monstrosity.
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Oooh, "I played (shabby obscure thing) before (mainstream derivative) was popular."
Go away, hipster gaming troll.
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Well, in World of Warcraft you can create mods by going out of game and writing some Lua script. The thing with Minecraft is that's it happens in-game, simply as a result of the basic building blocks they provide, and without having to learn complicated scripting languages and APIs.
I think I am not really doing Minecraft justice with what I said above, but it's really nothing like just having a moddable game.
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I like how you think building a giant in-game circuit for this stuff is simpler than just scripting behaviour.. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Re:What am I missing here... (Score:4, Insightful)
It depends on the person. Some people are more hands on. This is why we have hardware and software engineers.
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Yes, and the AC is clearly someone in marketing.
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2 Liberal arts graduates didn't get the joke
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Simplicity has nothing to do with it. Nerds like to see what they can get a machine to do that wasn't necessarily thought of by the machine's designers.
I remember in high school programming a GUI, Doom, Tetris, and Pong on my TI-85. It would have been a hell of a lot simpler to get a Gameboy. But that would have missed the point.
Redstone seems to have been mainly thought up in order to run minecart systems. It's a pretty good bet that Notch never thought of making a color printer with it. The fun is in maki
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That's nice, but I was referring to the "complicated" bit, so it has everything to do with "it". Games such as LittleBigPlanet, Minecraft, GarrysMod, etc are fun, but scripting is obviously a simpler way to perform most general calculations.
With the physics engines already built into these games, then some goals may be simpler to achieve in the game world than when scripting from scratch of course.. I just think it's bizarre to think of scripting as more complicated than painstakingly recreating an arithmet
Re:What am I missing here... (Score:4, Insightful)
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I take it that you've seen the (nearly) 1:1 Enterprise-D that someone built. Impressive for the details, as well as the absolutely ridiculous amount of time needed to build such a thing.
Looks bitchin' in YouTube, though.
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The main reason these are notable is these are not mods. There is no programming code involved. This is all done within the games mechanics. And those mechanics are limited to little more then wires and some simple logic gates.
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You can also create an OR (cross 2 redstone wires) and a NOT gate (wire to a block with a redstone torch). But what do you think your current computer is made out of? At the very low level they're all very basic gates of the same type.
I studied electronics design and while doing the high-level stuff is fun in a simulator, to build a unit we were at some point required to condense all of our logic to as few chips as possible because a single chip can have 4-16 gates but they'll be 4-16 of the same gates and
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It's the redstone equivilent of the EE newbs mistake of thinking they can just couple gate outputs together and get a free OR gate, without knowing what that 'high Z' thing in the datasheet is for. Then their chips go popcorn.
The restone NOT gate is really just a NOR gate with the unused inputs left unconnected
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Probably yes. You'd need to make your own game engine, though, because the original is too slow and AFAIK non-scriptable. You'd end up wasting days waiting for just a few routines to execute.
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It would be if poker in WoW was built using stuff you found in the world.
Instead, mods in World of warcraft are written using lua (a programming language, not a world obect). If raid bosses dropped variables, enclosure blocks, and while-loops, and those were needed for building the mod, then that would be closer to what people are doing in minecraft.
If you want to compare modding within the two games, then things are a bit closer. Modding in minecraft gives a lot more open (ie there are no fly mods in WoW,
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Minecraft harkens back to the nostalgia of Lego (incidentally, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Cl1OHhsao3A/TbkenaqJq1I/AAAAAAAADMo/lInbKf814Z8/lego-minecraft-1.jpg [blogspot.com] is a minecraft scene, in Lego. No less).
The combination of light gameplay (there's a grand total of 4 hostile - and horrendously stupid - critters that pop out of the dark to annoy you) and the liberty of placing blocks however you want them have proved a massive hook.
It took me about one hour. And while I'm not the most imaginative of architects, maki
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where aspiring architects (most of which cheat anyway) showcase their massive e-block
I'd just like to add that, at least right now there is no true "game" aspect to this game.
It's a "game" app in the same category as Lego Digital Designer is a "game".
The two common modes of play are a) Survival, where you only get the resources you can mine yourself, and have to avoid the baddies and deal with the few game like pieces that won't be done until the final version.
And B) creative mode, where there are no bad guys, no RPG or adventure game aspect (Outside of exploring), and you get free access t
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Yea I would have to agree that using a world editor program and then claiming otherwise is pure cheating as well as lying.
Fortunately it's usually pretty easy to tell, and quite a lot of interesting worlds were created with an editor (The 16 bit CPU for example, he used a world editor to get a huge stretch of empty land blocks to work on, but then supposedly made the rest in game)
Some really interesting things have been done in that area though which I wouldn't consider cheating exactly either.
If you don't
Blackjack in Leisure Suit Larry 1 (Score:2)
n/t
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You talks about games implemented outside of a game that can be played inside. This is about (using your words) games implemented inside of the game, that can be played inside of the game. Or using my own words "hardware implemented inside the rules of a virtual universe".
Making a mod for a game in Lua or other is a nice thing. But implementing computers using the rules of phisic inside a game is a huge nerd achievement and really nerd-fun.
Re:What am I missing here... (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not about playing the game. it's about creating the contraption to do it. The focus is on the creative process.
So an analogy in WoW would not be the ability to play an ingame game, but to make it. Remember the chess game from Karazhan? Suppose WoW plugins could make things like that. Suppose plugins could make battleground like concepts, with new types of combat and siege. Or plugins could add dances to the game. Or new model mounts, engineering tools, etc.
Imagine that kind of freedom. There would be an amazing new WoW addon each month, that would end up as a Slashdot topic. Suppose someone made an addon that would allow parties and raids to meld into a combined form, like Voltron or Megazord. Suppose you had total freedom in how to defeat a raid boss: You could build a wall around it and drown it in lava, or build a cannon and shoot your plate wearing players at it (especially dwarves), fight it as a big human pyramid, so only a few people can move everyone around. Wow can't do that, because it would be totally unbalanced. It would be a lot of fun and give addon developer a whole new meaning.
That is what Minecraft does: It gives you basic building blocks (literally), and a lot of creative freedom to mould the world.
It means that the creativity is no longer limited to what the designer of the game could come up with, but the players can add their own creativity. The sky is the limit (literally, as it's only 128 blocks high).
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It's worth noting that Notch has explicitly stated that one of his development goals is to promote emergent gameplay and creativity. Minecraft is like LittleBigPLanet in this sense; user created content and creativity was the goal from the beginning.
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or build a cannon and shoot your plate wearing players at it (especially dwarves),
Why build a cannon when you can just punt Gnomes at the boss? Some even have the right equipment to survive months inside its stomach. Yeah, it's more fun inventing machinery to punt oversized people, but where will you find a Dwarf with enough ingenuity to create an acid-resistant diving suit?
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So an analogy in WoW would not be the ability to play an ingame game, but to make it. Remember the chess game from Karazhan? Suppose WoW plugins could make things like that. Suppose plugins could make battleground like concepts, with new types of combat and siege. Or plugins could add dances to the game. Or new model mounts, engineering tools, etc. Imagine that kind of freedom.
As I was reading this I was thinking "I'd pay for a WoW like that." Then I remember second life and vowed not to pay for a WoW like _that_.
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Redstone can be used to power items with "electricity", like a Minecart Booster Rail, among tons of other things. Some of them may require a mod to facilitate (the Better Than Wolves mod adds mechanical power to the game, for example).
-Red
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just like a little brother does to your Legos
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Disclaimer: I haven't ever played Minecraft, so I might not understand the fuss properly. Please feel free to educate :)
Haven't games within games been around for a heck of a long time? There are loads of mods that either emulate classics or offer a totally new unrelated game to players. Heck, I recall even playing texas hold em with guildies during raids through an ingame mod when I was playing Warcraft.
What is so special about minecraft that it makes so many stories? Is it just purely flexibility and users being imaginative, or is there a particular reason that /. loves it so? I recall a post a few months ago about a guy who recreated a good portion of a Star Trek ship in minecraft. Was it merely a slow news day then as well?
What, google doesn't work for you?
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I too speak from a position of Minecraft ignorance (I 'think' I logged on once, long ago, when the first Minecraft story piqued my interest, that first hand experience left me mostly unpiqueable for Minecraft since then).
Anyway, I -believe- the fuss is mostly because Minecraft Classic is a "free" to play game in which creations are "free" for others to copy - so it's kind of a "best of" meld of Free Software, Legos, and Second Life.
Personally, it looks like a ginormous time-sink to me.
------
It's a scary da
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Personally, it looks like a ginormous time-sink to me.
So is Slashdot, TV and porn.
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...gardening, boating, fishing... (continue other hobbies here...)
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I enjoy minecraft, albeit not nearly as much as some.
The thing about minecraft is that
a) it's an individual developer, not a giant studio
b) it's 99.9% sandbox, where you can do whatever you want. It's just basically pieces with a basic set of physics.
c) it's free/cheap. Dunno what it is now, but I think I paid $5 when it was in beta.
It's fun to build things (think - unlimited lego set), plus it hearkens back to the halcyon days when gameplay was more important than polished graphics (fwiw I think that's j
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It's 15 euros now (about $22).
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Imagine a modding engine where to get each character you use in a script of the mod you need to enter an ancient dungeon, fight skeletons and then mine the walls for coding commands. Typing "if(x=0)" feels different than usual if obtaining the "if" statement was forged from two rare ores found on the bottom of a pit filled with scorpions, the "x" was guarded by goblins, the "0" was found floating in shark-infested waters on the seaside and you needed to assemble the "==" from two trees you chopped down.
Prog
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Sometimes we prefer to hear from someone directly about their experiences. That's partly why the internet has a lot of discussion forums and isn't just made up of one big wikipedia.
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Doubt all you want; there is no in game web browser in World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft's user interface is 100% customizable via lua scripting. You can do a ridiculous amount of things with it.
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you can go and try to build amazing and crazy things
But I'm a software engineer at heart. I write things that do the work for me, I don't do it myself.
Minecraft clearly works for people that want to make stuff, but lots of people just want the made stuff. That doesn't mean they aren't creative, it doesn't mean they aren't capable, it just means they've optimised out that slow tedious build phase.
Little big planet (Score:1)
This looks kind of like Little Big Planet for the PS3
Pretty cool logic (Score:2)
My son got bit by the electronics bug over the summer. He then proceeded to implement logic gates in Minecraft, and used them to build binary adders and other circuits. Is that nerdy enough for /. or what?
More to the point, I am pretty impressed with Minecraft - that one can use it to create such things.
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Keeps 'em off the streets, for sure.
But it also keeps 'em off the playground, and out of the woods, fields, and streams. Heck, kids are only visiting friends to sit in front of THEIR screens nowadays.
Don't forget to send 'em outside to play once in a while. Even the most computer-addicted of us needs some fresh air and sunlight to be healthy :)
Give me a break (Score:1, Insightful)
Minecraft patents (Score:2)
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The next step will be patenting everything in Minecraft by using existing patents and adding "in the Minecraft" at the end.
Kinda like adding "mobile" in front of other existing patents!
a standout post (Score:1)
Great Potential (Score:3)
The least that it is, it is a natural evolution of IRC; one can interact with other people's avatars, but the digital environment is much more appealing.
Already in the game there is a stereoscopic mode; one can choose to set the display in red-blue 3D, and that is only one of the aspects that make this game so immersive.
Imagine when VR displays and even more immersive technology are commonplace, wouldn't you just appreciate it that such a piece of software exists, one that allows you to create your own virtual interactive on-line environment, and it is ridiculously cheap because its indy developer absolutely loves what he is doing? They (he and his team) went viral just from word of mouth, and made enough money to "exit gracefully" to some undisclosed island- yet they chose to hire more people and develop like crazy. And he was not put down by PayPal withholding his income, embarrassing him to his clients.
Not only that, but Persson (the creator of Minecraft) has stated that "Once sales start dying and a minimum time has passed, I will release the game source code as some kind of open source."
C'mon, what more do you want.
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The least that it is, it is a natural evolution of IRC; one can interact with other people's avatars, but the digital environment is much more appealing.
So, you're saying that we are experiencing the beginning of "the matrix", or whatever name you'd like to apply to "cyberspace", as described in books such as Neuromancer [wikipedia.org] and Snow Crash [wikipedia.org], or game systems such as Shadowrun [wikipedia.org] or Cyberpunk [wikipedia.org]?
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So, you're saying that we are experiencing the beginning of "the matrix", or whatever ..
With google around, half a billion individuals in facebook and 3 billion people undernourished? That thought crossed my mind, yes.
What, not dystopian enough for you? You want victorian white zeppelins with brass knobs and levers floating about, is that it?
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What, not dystopian enough for you? You want victorian white zeppelins with brass knobs and levers floating about, is that it?
Actually, it is too dystopian without white zeppelins with brass knobs and levers for me.
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Optimised netcode!
Fair point. Or at least a shell.
I want to see RNA Translation in redstone (Score:4, Interesting)
The animations I've seen make translation look neat, I bet it'd look neater with 3d blocks in a video game. Somehow.
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Obligatory xkcd (Score:2)
http://xkcd.com/505/ [xkcd.com]
Re:Obligatory PA (Score:2)
But just the moment before that, it's totally like this:
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/09/17 [penny-arcade.com]
shameless plug (Score:2)
I've gotten sucked into the Minecraft vortex, and amongst my several major sculptures I've also gotten fairly handy with redstone wiring.
I produced a 50 meter bust of Hatsune Miku (modeled in Blender), and inside the head, a friend of mine collaborated and we made a fully operational "Dance Dance Revolution" game complete with 3 row scrolling step display, a reward/prize dispenser for good "dance" moves, and a programmable music system. Every block and circuit was harvested, traded, and placed legit... no W
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I'll take that as a compliment :-)
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what a sorry place we've come to as a species if every time someone has the drive, passion and concentration required to do something extraordinary like this they're labeled as having some kind of disorder.
Michelangelo? Asperger's definitely, right?
At least this guy's not some spaz that can't sit still for more than 10 seconds...
Re:Two words... (Score:5, Insightful)
My thoughts exactly. When did a place who's slogan is "News for Nerds" become such the antithesis of that? Once upon a time (I've read for much longer than my UID indicates) we'd discuss things because they were interesting. We'd discuss just about anything that inspired the imagination. Now the big stories are world events, and the really interesting things (peoples doing things just because they're interesting and trying out new ideas) are shoved aside, or they get comments like "Two words... Asperger's Syndrome."
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what a sorry place we've come to as a species if every time someone has the drive, passion and concentration required to do something extraordinary like this they're labeled as having some kind of disorder.
Michelangelo? Asperger's definitely, right?
I reproduced the Mona Lisa on my graphing calculator, and also have a mental condition that causes nerd-like behavior. Where's MY fanfare?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. This is a slashvertisement, so lower that pedestal a notch or two.
as a species
Hang on, I'm wiping the tears from my eyes.
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wait, was all that supposed to make some kind of sense?
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While interesting, your reply does not address the "assumed" aspect.
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That all depends on what you see as harmful. Some people merely like doing different things than other people. So while you may see it as "harmful" and think they need "help," other people simply don't care.
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Yes, I agree. If people aren't happy and do want to change, I think they should be able to get help.
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Being normal is boring anyway. The loonies are the interesting ones to hang around.
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Should a patient not be entitled to feel some fondness of (for example) the nerdy aspects of the disorder?
I like taking things literally and diving into details about every hint of an ambiguity even in everyday conversation
Should someone with OCD be entitled to feel better when they have checked X enough times? Or should they feel bad that they've had to check X so many times before they feel satisfied? Or something else?
Should an alcoholic be entitled to feel good that he can drown his problems in drink?
etc.
Decoration and ambiguity are normal in natural language. Handling it (and interpreting it correctly) is completely routine for the "neuro-typical"; studying it is an appropriate part of linguistics. If you occasionally ha
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err... I think you missed the point a little. Well, quite a bit, actually.
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I got all excited seeing the title, thinking this was going to be something about space exploration and Redstone rockets or something of this nature. Turns out, it's about a freakin cellphone game.... what a gyp
Actually, it's a PC game. There isn't a cellphone client, yet.
Maybe a little research [wikipedia.org] before making an idiot of yourself would be worthwhile.
Heck, maybe you should play the game [minecraft.net] and see what the fuss is about. It's free to play classic, and I'll bet you your lunch money that you can waste an entire lunch break just playing around with it.
To see some of the incredible things some people have done, just hit youtube and search for minecraft. There's everything from single-digit calculators to full 8-bit comput
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Disclaimer: I don't play MineCraft, mostly because paying 20 euros for a beta does not fit my budgeting needs.
besides, it's attack of the clones, copies of MC are coming along gradually... paying is for early adopters, I'll play my old games for now :)
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Actually, it's a PC game. There isn't a cellphone client, yet.
Maybe a little research [wikipedia.org] before making an idiot of yourself would be worthwhile.
https://market.android.com/details?id=com.mojang.minecraftpe [android.com]
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Interesting. I would have sworn it wasn't in the list when I searched for "minecraft" on the market a week or so ago. Might have been two weeks ago, though, which would explain why I didn't see it (It was released August 16th).
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It is not available on any phones, nor has it ever been.
My Sony Ericsson PLAY runs the official Minecraft for Android absolutely perfectly, thankyou.
https://market.android.com/details?id=com.mojang.minecraftpe [android.com]