Patent Troll Sues X-Plane 214
symbolset writes "X-plane is a cross-platform flight simulator app, notably the only serious one that supports Mac OSX and Linux. It was the first to include NASA data in their terrain modelling. It's now under threat by an NPE (Non-Practicing Entity) called Uniloc. Uniloc is suing for things X-Plane has done for decades. X-plane cannot afford to defend this suit, so if somebody doesn't step up and defend them then we lose X-plane forever. Quoting: 'I have spoken to a lawyer about this, and I am told that it will cost me about $1,500,000 (one and a half million dollars) to defend this suit. He also told me that it should take about two to three years to defend. This is more money than I have made selling Android Apps in the first place.'"
Errrm what? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Errrm what? (Score:5, Informative)
Where did "selling Android Apps" enter the picture? Turns out the patent has nothing to do with "things X-Plane has done for decades". Couldn't the editors have checked that?
It enters into the picture because x-Plain is using a standard Android API developed by Google and shipped with Android to check if the user bought the package before allowing it to be used.
This pretty much means Google is going to go after the Troll since the patents cited have plenty of prior art that the patent office overlooked.
The editors could have checked for this, but quite frankly you could have clicked a link an RTFA.
Re:Errrm what? (Score:5, Informative)
The summary is, as usually, fairly terribad.
The patent (filed 2001, granted 2005) is for remote license checking. This, you may surmise, is ancient technology. It's ubiquitous technology. It's an egregiously bad candidate for a patent (in my non-lawyer opinion). But, there it is.
The "decades" part has nothing explicit to do with X-Plane, or with the Android license checking API. It has entirely to do with the fact that remote license checking has been done for decades, not that X-Plane has been doing it for decades.
Way to misinterpret TFA when constructing the summary, Original Submitter. (Assuming Editor didn't botch the summary and make it look like they're quoting the Submitter's pristine words.)
I love this place. It makes "finding the real story" into a bizarre and almost-entertaining "Where's Waldo" game.
Re:Errrm what? (Score:5, Insightful)
So... he got sued because his proprietary software's DRM system infringes a troll's patent on DRM systems?
He's the lesser of two evils. I hope he wins, but it's hard to give a crap, really.
If he wins, a patent troll is defeated, which is good.
If he loses, DRM becomes harder to do, because of the patent, which is also good.
Either way, money changes hands from two asshats to their lawyers, who, quite likely are equally asshats, which is thus neutral.
Re:Errrm what? (Score:5, Funny)
This is known as Asshat Economics. Money slowly trickles into the hands of asshats, and once there, it just moves around between the asshats to create the illusion that they are doing something meaningful.
Re:Errrm what? (Score:5, Interesting)
I call that "the honest definition of capitalism."
Re:Errrm what? (Score:5, Informative)
The patent (filed 2001, granted 2005) is for remote license checking.
You mean like this patent [uspto.gov], which they failed to list as prior art?
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Is it the same as the Minecraft lawsuit?
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It would be nice if Google actually went after this troll; however, this troll obviously knows they're probability of surviving against Google is 0 so they went after these 8 developers. Heck, even Oracle didn't survive against Google.
The trick shot there is these 8 developers convincing a judge that the patent is invalid because of "prior art" if you will (see this link [x-plane.com] from Laminar Research); or if it's considered valid that the plaintiff should go after Google instead. If the judge agrees the case is ov
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This pretty much means Google is going to go after the Troll since the patents cited have plenty of prior art that the patent office overlooked.
I would think that Apollo's NetLS from 1987 would be the prime example here - even its name means Network Licensing System.
Unlike the later FlexLM, it did have a global server that pointed to the correct local server, so it's highly relevant here.
IBM: you guys bought NetLS, and now call it IBM LUM, so why not take off your gloves and go after this fscker with a pre-emptive suit?
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Turns out the patent has nothing to do with "things X-Plane has done for decades".
Kind of and kind of not. The patent the troll is claiming has been infringed on is for things others have done for decades - remote license checking:
Section 107 of the patent, which they claim I violated, contains: “107. code for verifying the license data stored on the licensing medium by communicating with a registration authority having verification data.”
The article goes on to point out a few others that have been doing this for decades. HP Openview has been doing it for as long as it has existed. I'm sure scores of others not listed have as well. Honestly, it's been a common practice for decades to be certain.
This is just another example of how software patenting is bad for the industry. Trolls can get pa
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Seems like the simple solution is to just not use that API. I never understood the point of it anyway - if I'm going to pirate software using my phone, wouldn't I just intercept the API call? The OS is open source.
Re:Errrm what? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually he says he does have that kind of money:
And it sounds like not only does have have that kind of money, but he has lots more too.
Re:Errrm what? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Hey everyone, Im rich, but I need help defending the thing you all love because I dont really wanna pay for it."
Wait, what?
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Oh, this must be that trickle down economics I hear so much about
"Hey everyone, Im rich, but I need help defending the thing you all love because I dont really wanna pay for it."
Wait, what?
Trickles down to the lawyers?
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some of which money may have gone toward a, shall we say, favorably-worded slashdot post.
Not to discourage people from contributing... (Score:5, Informative)
...but (FTFA)
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Plus, I bet Google steps in. Its a Google API he is using that is the subject of the troll.
Re:Not to discourage people from contributing... (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, I'm surprised it took so long for a response. Laminar Research was sued back in July 22, 2012 [pcworld.com].
In fact, this is part of the lawsuit that Uniloc filed against Mojang (Minecraft) as well, plus EA and many other big names. And the one where the founder says he's not a "patent troll" [theverge.com].
I'd be surprised if Google didn't step in - it's Google's technology they're all using in the end. Just like how Apple stepped in when a bunch of iOS developers (and later, Android devs) got sued over in-app purchases.
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As noted above, the technology seems to have been bought from another company by IBM and dates back to the 80s. I remember using exactly this sort of system in 1999 at a firm that I worked for. Each computer would contact the central server for verification before being authorized to get online with the stock exchange computers. Every time the program was run, in fact. Not some obscure patent rotting in a file cabinet, but dozens of actual commercial level products back in the 90s.
In fact, a search of "D
Flightgear (Score:2, Informative)
I'm sure the developers of Flightgear would be pleased to hear their efforts aren't serious.
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You... you do realize who the FAA is?
One day I'll come on slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Oops! (Score:2)
I RTFA and see the following (Score:5, Informative)
* Laminar Research is being sued specifically for the Android version
* Uniloc is suing Laminar Research because X-Plane phones home to validate it's license
* X-Plane is using a system for license validation provided by Google. Nearly everyone else in the Android market is using this same code, so Uniloc is not going to stop here.
I would say Laminar Research needs to get EFF on the phone but I don't know if they would help defend a commercial product.
Re:I RTFA and see the following (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like he should get Google on the phone.
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And make a call to the family.
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I would say Laminar Research needs to get EFF on the phone but I don't know if they would help defend a commercial product.
The EFF does defend commercial products sometimes, but yes, EFF defending DRM? I certainly hope not. If the EFF did ever start defending things like DRM, they'd lose half their membership.
Re:EFF's policies (Score:5, Informative)
"...without the user's permission"
You click an "Accept & Download" button when installing anything from the Play Store. listed under that button is the permissions the app requires.
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Lovely. And you'll note that there is no option to install the software WITHOUT granting all those permissions. Android has a take it or leave it permissions model, which is fundamentally one-sided.
Of course, it is also easily bypassed.
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Checking for updates isn't the job of the application itself, that's done by the Google Play application so if the internet permission is on something that doesn't need the internet for actual functionality then you can be sure it's for DRM or spying.
That said, we ARE talking about an OS provided by one of the biggest dataminers on the planet. Even if your downloaded apps don't phone home that's not saying anything about the OS itself.
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And you know it's putrid how?
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He's posting from inside of it and wants some "alone time".
Stop living in the US (Score:5, Insightful)
You need to move to a free country. Innovation is dead in this country. If you don't have several million dollars, you're nobody. You aren't entitled to legal protection, you're just a consumer waiting to be extorted. I'm not saying this to be sarcastic or political; I mean it. Move your development overseas, contribute under an alias, use Tor, whatever it takes. The United States is not a place for innovators or creators to be right now. It is, however, a great place for lawyers and thieves.
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True, the patent system for software is completely hosed up. But to say, "Innovation is dead in this country," is just you talking out of your ass.
There are plenty of companies in many other facets of science and engineering that are doing just fine by staying in the states (not to mention having some of the best schools in the world plus lots of very good ones). As an example, why do international companies in the petroleum ind
Re:Stop living in the US (Score:5, Interesting)
Or, it's just software's turn this century.
Patent trolls have been around practically forever. The 19th century had patent lawsuits flying around over motorized vehicles, probably just as much as we're seeing between Apple, Microsoft, Google/Motorola, Samsung, etc. And probably just as stupid.
I believe it's a sure sign of innovation when it happens - when a technology is booming, people start mining for gold. When the high-technology sector settles down, so will the lawsuits. And then some OTHER field will experience a rise in patent lawsuits, and they too will wonder about reforming the system, blah blah blah.
History repeating itself over and over again. I tihnk some of the greatest inventors (Edison?) were also some of the most prolific lawsuit-filers.
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Re:Stop living in the US (Score:4, Insightful)
As an example, why do international companies in the petroleum industry routinely do business in the states?
Because we have a corrupt government that gives favors to powerful industries.
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Specific favors? No, I don't follow the petroleum industry that closely. But we have a terrible record at holding large corporations accountable for crimes. That can only be attractive to cartels.
Besides, whether Aramco can innovate is irrelevant. Patent trolls don't deter major corporations, they have the funds to fight. What patent trolls do is destroy individual innovation, outside of a corporate structure. You know, the kind of innovation one expects to see in a free country.
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But hardly anything these days runs or works without some sort of installed or embedded software. Even your coffee maker has a CPU in it.
Catch-22.
Re:Stop living in the US (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it's because we have some of the very best technology and great minds to advise companies all over the world.
I couldn't find a single piece of electronics gear in my house with the words "Made in the USA" stamped on the bottom. And as far as the "great minds to advise[sic] companies", since our educational standards are falling like a rock, and China has more honor students than we have students, let me go out on a limb and suggest that the advice they're offering is business, not engineering. Deny it all you want, but the reality is right there for anyone to see. I'm not an "alarmist" -- I can hop a plane and fly to Japan where they have state of the art cell phones that make ours look like antiques. The iPhone 5 launch there will be met with a yawn, just like every other release. I can hop another plane to Britain and walk into the dingiest apartment in the suburbs and buy internet access 10x faster than what they have here, and in some markets at a lower place. I can hop another plane to pretty much any other country on the planet and get medication at a fraction of the price it's sold for here.
In virtually every market, in every scientific and engineering discipline, I do not need to look very hard to find people not just competing with America, but beating the snot out of it. The only thing we're good at is business -- we're litigators, we're service providers, we're the world's police force. But do not fucking sit there and tell me that we are innovators. Innovation died a long time ago in this country, and that's a fact you need to square with, instead of living off the fumes of the burned out husk of the American Dream.
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I still get stuff made by a US owned company (SuperMicro), but it never touches your shores.
Anyway, IMHO Silicon Valley (and a lot of technological st
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Litigation costs (Score:5, Funny)
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Do you have any idea how much CO2 that bomb will release!??!?!??
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TNT is oxygen deficient, so it tends to release CO, but no CO2. Even with a worst-case high explosive a couple 500 pound bombs aren't going to release more than a couple hundred pounds of CO2. Lawyers, on the other hand, release quite a lot.
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Isn't it cheaper, not to mention more socially responsible, to simply bomb that company's headquarters?
Way to make it onto a no fly list Mr. Kyosuke!
How to Beat a Patent Troll (Score:2)
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Oooh these guys are the genuine parasitic troll, too:
"Well, at Unilocs’ website, at the time of this writing, lives the text: “In the device recognition space, for example, we believe that we have uncovered a billion dollar market And it fits our straightforward development model. Look at many ideas. Pick an outstanding one. Patent it. Commercialize it. Reap the rewards.”"
FlightGear (Score:4, Interesting)
What makes X Plane more serious than Flight Gear, let alone the only serious one?
Re:FlightGear (Score:4, Informative)
X-Plane does aerodynamic simulations on that no other civilian solution can touch.
Re:FlightGear (Score:5, Informative)
FAA certification? [x-plane.com]
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FAA certification? [x-plane.com]
It seems at least one FAA certified product is a set including Flight Gear, so I would not use that to say X Plane is the only serious flight simulator to run on Apple Mac OS X & GNU/Linux.
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This [slashdot.org] makes it seem like Flightgear is only being used for the visuals. As I know nothing about Flightgear... is this true? I think it's cool either way then, but if it's true, it's a shame Flightgear didn't go the way X-Plane did for the simulation itself. (if you are unaware, only the airfoil's characteristics are "programmed" - the rest is supposed to be fully simulated. Other sims, like MS, they just plug in some numbers and define how the craft behaves, statically (as far as my understanding goes))
This [youtube.com]
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These kinds of certifications are more a matter of spending a lot of money than having any particular capability (though the capabilities usually are a pre-requisite).
It is kind of like saying that Diginotar is more secure than CACert because they passed all the audits needed to be included as a root on Firefox. The catch is that CACert doesn't just issue wildcard intermediate certs to whoever asks for them.
I work on regulated software. Certifications are more about paperwork than quality. In fact, I've
Just sent him $2.99 to help fight ! (Score:2)
Never heard of X-Plane before, but I just bought the Android version. I wuld never have heard aboutt his otherwise. Patent Troll, meet Streisand effect !
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They would love to meet the Streisand effect -- Laminar would then have more money to hand over should they end up having to settle or lose the case.
And if Laminar follows it through to court and wins, the troll isn't going to feel any additional pain just because Laminar made a few extra sales in the meantime.
The only way this would cause the troll a problem is if:
- Laminar currently doesn't have the money to defend, AND
- They make enough additional sales that they DO have enough money to defend.
$1.5mill i
Emigrate (Score:2)
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Just what I was thinking. X-Plane is produced by Laminar Research [wikipedia.org] who are based in Columbia, South Carolina, USA. If they moved here (England) they would not have a language problem and could continue to develop and sell X-Plane, but probably no sales to the USA. They would then tell their political representatives why they moved and point out how this was costing the USA economy. If enough companies did this then maybe the message might get through the thick skulls of the politicians.
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Not only that, but people here, hardly go bankrupt to fight a stupid claim in the tribunal.
That's the serious problem in USA. Even if you are right and the law is on your side, you still have abandon your work because you simply don't have enough money to fight a big corporation in the courts. Talk about "liberty and justice for all".
Hand-written envelope (Score:5, Interesting)
I got hit by a patent troll a few years back. I used the same technique that I'd used when MSFT once approached us and said they thought we might be infringing on their IP and could we prove that we're not. And again when another large company said we needed to change our logo because it looked like we had dotted a capital 'i', and they owned that. Just ignore them. We got one additional letter from the patent troll, and that was the last ever heard. As someone else has said, these people are looking for deep pools of money.
In the first instance, ignore. If they demand that you must do something by some certain date, ignore. When they send the follow-up, ignore. If they come back a third time, then send a really badly written letter produced on a manual typewriter or written in crayon with a hand-written envelope telling them what they're claiming isn't applicable, but provide no details. Make yourself look small, impoverished and hard work.
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Sorry - correction: they're not looking for "deep" pools of money otherwise they'd be going after GOOG and MSFT as well. They're looking for modest pools of money.
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Actually, Uniloc has sued Microsoft, Sony, Adobe, Electronic Arts, [arstechnica.com] and a host of other companies large and small. Some of those suits (such as those against Mojang and EA) were based on the same patent as the suit against Laminar Research. It seems to me that the defendants should try to work out a shared defense, since it's in all of their interests to see the patent invalidated.
I'll also note that it's interesting that Google has apparently not tried to intervene in the suit. Compare that to the Lodsys
Trolls and they know it! (Score:2)
Wow, this troll thinks they own ALL implementations of "Software Activation" of any kind.. What a bunch of nimrods! Even their own website is super focused on litigation! http://www.uniloc.com/index.php/intellectual-property/ [uniloc.com]
Involving Google in a patent war??? (Score:2)
I can see it now
"Okay we need to find prior art for to break this patent?? Okay task the interns from SanFran unit Baker 12 to run nodes 6854623D - 6854902E to find prior art"
then they come to the courthouse with A LITERAL SEMI-TRUCK LOAD of prior art (and when did WINDOWS start doing GA checks??)
The only serious cross platform Flight Sim? (Score:5, Interesting)
"X-plane is a cross-platform flight simulator app, notably the only serious one that supports Mac OSX and Linux."
And here I've been using http://flightgear.org/ [flightgear.org] all this time. I thought I was using a serious, free, GPL open-source flight simulator that runs on Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux.. I'm glad this slashdot post came up to tell me I was wrong.
Dude charges for X-plane.. When you decide to charge for software you accept all the financial responsibility for defending it against litigation. Welcome to it.
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Austin Meyer (Score:2)
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As a paying customer, he treated me like a pirate the one time I asked a support question on his web site.
How about a link to that thread, or a couple emails to back that up. I'm not disagreeing with you, but if you are looking for support for that statement from this crowd how about some proof of assholishness? I don't like some people, but I have also gotten off on the wrong foot with people too and have learned not to judge quickly. I have never met Austin but have had good rapport with the Laminar guys over the years when I have asked questions. I don't think it's been more than once or twice in ten years,
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I have dealt with Austin for many years, he can be a total ass-hole. There doesn't need to be links etc. the x-plane forums, X-Plane.org, will have many references to stupid changes made to the product just because Austin wanted it that way, not because it was better. Silly programming errors that persisted for years, suggestions that were rejected, usually with abusive emails, that were later implemented. Nope, Austin can be a total crap pile, and nothing will change my opinion, that's why I stopped using
IANAL but earlier story re: software patents (Score:2)
I just cannot believe this (Score:2)
Jesus Christ, I cannot believe this. This is really horrible news. Not only is X-Plane the best flight sim out there and I'm flying it for more than 8 years now, it also always used to be the best example for me that a smart guy can make a living nowadays simply by selling software. (They started as a one man company and I think by now are about 4 or something; it's hard to tell because there are so many dedicated hobbyists helping out for free. Not even Microsoft could harm Austin, and now that.
I hope the
Shame (Score:2)
EFF? (Score:2)
1.5 mill just for defense? (Score:2)
Now we see why things are so so screwed up when it comes to IP as the lawyers are not going to kill of their cash cow.
That is just ludicrous.
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well, he has a very expensive lawyer.
10000 dollars per line of text. he already did the work, couldn't he just show up at the court and cite prior art?
Possible help on Slashdot (Score:2)
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/09/14/1339255/easy-fix-for-software-patents-found-in-us-patent-act [slashdot.org]
He CAN afford to defend the suit (Score:2)
Quote:
"(Note: I have enough money to defend thus suit all the way through trial without it being a severe financial hardship, so please do not give if it is a hardship for you. But, if you would like to make a contribution to help with the cause because you want to help stop people like this, then it will surely be appreciated!)"
Ask Drew Curtis (Score:2)
If litigation costs more money than you made... (Score:2)
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Drew Curtis would beg to differ.
You know... (Score:2)
If you think you can hide, you are a fool (Score:2)
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
----
If you believe you can hide in this online world and that the "powers that be" aren't capable of reading off everything you download and that you are really hiding anything, then you are a complete fool.
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Ah... i see the alternate reading.
foolish me.
no big deal (Score:2)
it is just an android issue, so kill x-plane for android, or find another way to stop people stealing (not having lawfully obtained) software and the issue goes away.
Stress (Score:2)
Stress is caused by the difference between what is happening and what one thinks should be happening. In this case, the main stress is caused by spending money and time on a case where you may be ruled against (though I do not see how). Along the way there will be ups and downs as things slowly move forward. There needs to me no stress what so ever.
Here are a couple of ways to look at this situation;
1. I am spending hard earned money to prove that the lawsuit is invalid and I will come out victorious. I may
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Is that you Mr. Uniloc?
not his scheme (Score:2)
He's using the google API
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Minecraft is so badly coded why would you want to take credit for its software? o_o
Guy is just a dumb patent troll. 1.5 million? Please, how about we fine him 3 million, 1.5 million for the lawyer fees and 1.5 million to the the US government for wasting its time when it could be spending time and money on more important things than this bullshit.
Re:Only Serious Flight Simulator? (Score:4, Funny)
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X-Plane offers a USB dongle that you can have in your PC instead of the DVD to validate the license. I think that might be what they're talking about.
Not that I agree with them or think that the patent is even valid.
usb key? (Score:2)
It seems a USB key plugged into a smartphone would qualify.
And under the tortured logic of lawyers and patents I wonder if a cryptographically signed electronic file could qualify as "a portable licensing medium". Heck, a piece of paper with a barcode or QR code might actually qualify.