Tolkien Estate Sues Over Lord of the Rings Slot Machines 211
An anonymous reader writes "The Tolkien Estate has filed an $80 million copyright infringement lawsuit in U.S. District Court over the use of Lord of the Rings slot machines. The complaint hinges on a contract between the estate and Warner Bros. which allows the creation of LotR merchandise but not LotR 'intangibles,' like the experience of playing a slot machine game. According to the estate (PDF), 'Not only does the production of gambling games patently exceed the scope of defendants' rights, but this infringing conduct has outraged Tolkien's devoted fan base, causing irreparable harm to Tolkien's legacy and reputation and the valuable goodwill generated by his works.'"
Doesn't the Tolkien estate... (Score:3, Insightful)
...have enough FUCKING money yet?
Re:Doesn't the Tolkien estate... (Score:5, Funny)
They still haven't found the precious.
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> They still haven't found the precious.
I originally read that as:
They still haven't found the pernicious.
Re:Doesn't the Tolkien estate... (Score:5, Funny)
No. No "fucking money." They haven't authorized any lord of the rings cockrings yet, though the slogan "one ring to rule them all" would be delightfully appropos.
Yes they did but .... (Score:4, Funny)
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No silly! Without it your "dark lord" cannot attain his "full power!"
(Best when used with a Nazgul(tm) textured black rubber condom.)
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when you put it on your dick and balls vanish!
They won't if your name is Tom Bombadil. (Uhm, crap, how does one go about un-imagining something like that?)
Re:Yes they did but .... (Score:5, Funny)
Goldberry is waiting... for her Tom Bomba-dildo.
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Goldberry is waiting... for her Tom Bomba-dildo.
That may be the best off-colour reference ever! My hat goes off to you, sir.
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when you put it on your dick and balls vanish!
Now I want one =(
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Re:Doesn't the Tolkien estate... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't Warner Brothers have enough money yet without making LotR slot machines?
Re:Doesn't the Tolkien estate... (Score:4, Insightful)
None of us know whether WB have the rights to make the slot machines, whether for casinos or Toys-R-Us, as we haven't read the contracts.
We also don't know that money will soothe the estate's hurt feelings. If the parties settle and the slot machines remain, then it was about the money. If they settle and the machines go, or it goes to trial and the estate insists all along that the machines must go, then it isn't (at least entirely) about the money. It is too soon to rush to judgement on this.
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The two parties are unfriendly towards each other. Remember Tolkien Estate also had a pending lawsuit against Saul Zaentz Company for not paying up the promised percentage from the Lord of the Rings Movies, and this held up the start of The Hobbit filming for some time.
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The damaged reputation argument is, of course, laughable given money will, of course, soothe hurt feelings.
If you've got a better way to punish a corporation than by fining it, I'd like to hear it. As it stands, fining a company, and therefore making the bad activities less profitable is about the only thing we have for an entity that cannot be imprisoned nor be killed.
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The damaged reputation argument is, of course, laughable given money will, of course, soothe hurt feelings.
If you've got a better way to punish a corporation than by fining it, I'd like to hear it. As it stands, fining a company, and therefore making the bad activities less profitable is about the only thing we have for an entity that cannot be imprisoned nor be killed.
You could make them post an apology on the front page of their website.
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Oblig: http://xkcd.com/90/ [xkcd.com]
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they might be cunts, but i'm on their side on this one.
pokie machines are a disgusting scourge on society.
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No, and it's not about money. The primary entity involved with licensing is not the Tolkien Estate but the Saul Zaentz Company. And Saul Zaentz Co. is one the the defendents here! This is actually pretty intersting. For a long time the Tolkien Estate has really been locked out of many decisions involving the Lord of the Rings IP. Tolkien licensed the film and merchandising rights to United Artists in 1969, and eventually ended up in the Saul Zaentz Company.
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I could be wrong here but didn't JRR Tolkien sign away the rights to LoTR and The Hobbit movies when he was still alive? Some American company if I remember correctly. Christopher tolkien was against the movies getting made but they still did them despite what he wanted. :(
I guess this is why we will never get to see a movie based on the Silmarillion (the Tolkien estate still has the rights to that)
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...have enough FUCKING money yet?
Why is it okay for everyone BUT the family to make money off it????
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As I understand it, $100 is enough money to fuck unless you prefer weird shit.
So to answer your question; probably "yes".
Re:Doesn't the Tolkien estate... (Score:4, Informative)
The problem with copyright is that you either defend it or lose it
No. [wikipedia.org]
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Patents do not need to be defended in order to be considered valid. It is my understanding that the same holds for Copyright.
Trademarks, however, are more often deemed to be valid only if they are consistently defended. That is, if your company name is "Slashdot" and you let "Slashdot Wines" exist, but then you decide to go after "Slashdot Fruit Snacks", you will have a much harder time claiming the Slashdot trademark since it can be demonstrated that you failed to defend
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I think trademarks work more like stopping people using your expensive work and effort for their own advantage. So while Slashdot wines has no relationship to technology or discussion forums, and so would probably be irrelevant, Slashdot smart phones would have to be challenged or the trademark would be weakened. The reason for the law is sound but like any law can be abused by those with enough money to do so. Also, the internet would be less fun without armchair lawyers.
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That's trademarks, not copyright. Two completely different things.
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They should have lost it in 1973.
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They should have lost it in 1973.
I find your lack of faith in the Schwartz disturbing.
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But I heard it was erupting!
you mean they DIDN'T throw it in!?
Re:Doesn't the Tolkien estate... (Score:4, Informative)
Taking a flippant comment seriously:
Ngaruahoe, which played Mt Doom for the distant shots, is not erupting. Ruapehu, an adjacent larger vulcano which played Mt Doom in some of the close ups, has recently had its warning levels upgraded. It also is not erupting, but is considered more likely than normal to erupt in the near future. Nearby Tongariro (opposite side of Ngaruahoe from Ruapehu) had a brief minor eruption in August.
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Those seismologists were playing 3 card monty with us, Telling us to watch Ruapehu, keep your eyes on Ruapehu, and then, Tangariro blows.
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I'm just curious how they would make that work...
I mean, I can't imagine how they would structure a slots "game" around the main plot.... the one ring is not a good thing, afterall. What would you use as a bonus token, and how would you structure the reel scoring?
'Mines of moria" would make more sense for a slot, if more obscure.
the pinball game has structure around the plot (Score:2)
the pinball game has structure around the plot and it's better then in the slot games.
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That pin is by far my favorite. I've spent hours at it, and was extremely sad when the local pub that had it decided it wasn't worth the maintenance cost any more and replaced it with something terrible.
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Need to play it with rom ver 10 and cave trolls turned on.
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I regret to inform members of this forum that, due to recent litigation, the term 'troll' can no longer be used in these forums.
Persons using said term, and all variants thereof, are subject to liability for copyright or trademark infringement involves the potential for significant civil damages, including in particular cases, statutory damages, liability for up to three times actual damages, and attorneys fees.
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And that pinball game was probably licensed by the Estate and not WB.
In fact that might be a good piece of evidence for the case. The question will be is a slot machine merchandise or a gaming/entertainment experience? Since I'm pretty sure the point of using that wording is that they were NOT giving the rights to make video games, etc to WB as well...
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This isn't about money, I find the concept of a LOTR slot machine repulsive, and can imagine JRR spinning in his grave hearing about his epic fantasy world being used in such a base and disconnected manner.
I also find LOTR slot machines repulsive as a concept, but make no mistake. This is about money.
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I first read The Hobbit more than 25 yea
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can imagine JRR spinning in his grave hearing about his epic fantasy world being used in such a base and disconnected manner.
Did you know JRR when he was alive in order to accurately predict his views on such a thing?
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can imagine JRR spinning in his grave hearing about his epic fantasy world being used in such a base and disconnected manner.
Did you know JRR when he was alive in order to accurately predict his views on such a thing?
When someone explicitly says that he is making something up from his imagination, why do you think he's making a prediction based on a personal relationship with the author? Do you think that when Tolkien made up the Orcs, he had personally met with an Orc to hear his views?
Re:Doesn't the Tolkien estate... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Oh, but he'd be fine with the Gandalf's Gobble Melt or Frodo's Pot Roast Skillet [dennys.com]?
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Oh, but he'd be fine with the Gandalf's Gobble Melt or Frodo's Pot Roast Skillet [dennys.com]?
...but I'm not sure I would want to eat a breakfast that came out of a "Hobbit Hole..."
Sounds like... (Score:4, Funny)
...the Tolkein Estate wants to be Lord of the Blings as well.
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Or Kachings. Or Pings. Or whatever. I'll stop now.
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So far as I understand it, the licensing agreements that JRRT sold did not extend to marketing, so I would imagine that the Estate retains the right of approval for any marketing.
How dare they... (Score:5, Insightful)
How dare they attempt to flagrantly abuse the creative works created by an author 80 years ago, when the great-grandchildren of said author deserve a life of luxury for all of their blood, sweat and tears!
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How dare they attempt to flagrantly abuse the creative works created by an author 80 years ago, when the great-grandchildren of said author deserve a life of luxury for all of their blood, sweat and tears!
1 The literary estate of an author is often the only thing he has to give to his children --- and that is an incentive to be productive.
2 The ur-Geek began buying into the LOTR fantasy along about 1957-1965, and "buying," I think, is the right word here.
3 There has been plenty of borrowing as well. In Infocom's prime the adventure game --- and by extension --- the RPG could draw on any form of genre fiction, pulp fiction, and see some commercial success. It wasn't all elves and orcs, D&D.
A world
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1 The literary estate of an author is often the only thing he has to give to his children --- and that is an incentive to be productive.
Whereas everybody else only has a small amount of real and personal property to bequeath.
Property purchased with the money derived from one's life's work.
I'm failing to understand why authors should get some special deal.
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That fails to defend why it would be OK for WB to make these slot machines.
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If the choice was between making it public domain versus an estate clinging to an old work to squeeze money from it, then maybe some people might agree with you. But this is about an estate who has very little actual control over film and merchandising versus Hollywood giants of Warner Brothers and Saul Zaentz Company. These people are vastly more litigious than the Tolkien Estate (it was the Saul Zaentz Company that sued the Hungry Hobbit Cafe in England).
Get some (Score:5, Insightful)
Surprised to see this the othe night (Score:2)
A few nights ago my band was playing at one of the local Casino showrooms, and I noticed these new LOTR machines. I did a double take! Most of you probably do not frequent Casinos (nor would I, except for my gigs there), but they have all these movie-themed slot machines; Wizard Of Oz, Dirty Dancing, etc. But LOTR machines just seem really strange for some reason. Funny.... no Ocean's Eleven ones.
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I don't think your average business dedicated to parting pathetic gambling addicts and thrill junkies from their cash could stand the deep irony of a series of films based on parting the money of your average business dedicated to parting pathetic gambling addicts and thrill junkies from their money.
Good (Score:5, Interesting)
Poker machines are morally disgusting. They're basically a way of imposing a tax on people too stupid or hopeful to know better. Here in Australia, there's people who literally bankrupt themselves pouring money into the bloody things. I'm all for individual responsibility, but those bloody things are designed to addict more than cigarettes or crack cocaine.
What's more, venues that have poker machines deliberately target the poor [smh.com.au]. I've walked into a couple of poker machine venues, they are literally the embodiment of everything that is wrong with modern day society. Pensioners, disabled people, smoking heavily and desperate for, if nothing else, just a near-win.
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Poker machines are morally disgusting. They're basically a way of imposing a tax on people too stupid or hopeful to know better.
There's a huge difference between a video poker machine and a slot machine.
A slot machine is completely random and you have no control over the result. Video poker, on the other hand, can actually be a statistical money maker for the player if they know how to play and the machine has a favorable payout table. Don't quit your day job, though, because even playing at $10/hand you'd only make around $10/hour though perfect play. Between free drinks and comp benefits, you can end up spending only $1-2/hour
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Poker machines are morally disgusting. They're basically a way of imposing a tax on people too stupid or hopeful to know better.
While I agree with most of what you said, imposing is a bit too strong.
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> Poker machines are morally disgusting. They're basically a way of imposing a tax on people too stupid or hopeful to know better.
You're absolutely right, but we have a choice not to use them. One can't stop people voluntarily destroying themselves, and I'm not sure we even have the moral obligation to try.
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Poker machines are morally disgusting.
You don't really know what you are talking about do you?
Video and slot machines typically have a payout of 98-99% Of course you have to play a lot to hit these numbers, but how long? If you play $10,000 you'll theoretically lose $200. But how much entertainment did you get for that $200? More than 20 movies? Or a dozen concerts? How many liquor would that buy? People spend money on a lot of things. And some choose to spend it entertaining themselves playing video poker. Doesn't mean it is morally disgusti
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Wait... I don't quite see the problem there. A voluntary tax... On the stupid! Goodness... We have so much stupid going around here in the US, we could balance the federal budget with something like that!
What's more, venues that have poker machines deliberately target the poor.
I don't know how this works in Australia, but in the US, the poor don't pay income taxes. So if, after getting paid and complaining a
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Poker machines are morally disgusting
Fuck you. Your morals disgust me. If people want to play slots, then it is not your place to judge them. Get over yourself.
I guess you find crack and cigarettes morally disgusting too? Fuck you again. Grow a spine and let others do what they will. If someone is crying that they chose to be addicted, help them if you want, but it is their fucking choice to do whatever the fuck they want with themselves... even if it leads them into areas that morally disgust you.
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Yeah, great. But the problem then is that those people are the ones who end up either offing themselves, mugging people at train stations, or sending their families (you know, the partner and 2.3 kids who weren't gambling) bankrupt as well. Yay social Darwinism!
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But the problem then is that those people are the ones who end up either offing themselves, mugging people at train stations, or sending their families (you know, the partner and 2.3 kids who weren't gambling) bankrupt as well. Yay social Darwinism!
So what? If you're an adult do you want to be treated like one or should the namby-pamby big brother government always be holding your little hand? Are we going to force everyone to live like children because a few can't handle adult responsibilities? I didn't have any say in whether or not those people had kids so why should I have less freedom just because they're irresponsible parents?
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You could easily be an idiot to someone else. Why shouldn't they tax you?
Because (Score:2)
It's already done.
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Only because it's not actually a tax. A real tax would return to the public at large, and do some benefit to society as a whole. This is profit that goes straight into the pockets of a few 1%ers, and at best a portion of it trickles down to someone in the form of labor paid for staining a piece of wood on their yacht.
Slot machines are a penalty on stupid people. It doesn't make them smarter, it just deprives them of a few of their meager resources in a way they are too stupid to understand.
Only in a case
I hope the Tolkien estate wins (Score:2)
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slot machines are totally against the spirit of the books.
So is any form of film or video, if you listen to the purists in the Tolkien Usenet groups.
(And yes, Usenet does still exist.)
Did It Really??? (Score:3)
I can't claim to be the biggest fan of Tolkien novels, but does anyone believe for a second that there are a significant number of fans that are outraged over the release of a LotR slot machine to the point of causing "irreparable harm to Tolkien's legacy"? I would say that the greed of the owners of the Tolkien estate is doing more irreparable harm to the Tolkien legacy than the release of a fucking slot machine. After this, I would rather put $10 into a LotR slot machine than towards a ticket to see the upcoming Hobbit movie.
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If nothing else, I figure the only people seeing them will be adults who frequent casinos. IE they can't have a real beef with slot machines and gambling in the first place. The only 'damage' would come from anti-gambling Tolkien fans, which would be a tiny fraction of the fans who just don't care either way, and a good chance of being outnumbered by the Tolkien fans who like gambling.
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> I can't claim to be the biggest fan of Tolkien novels, but does anyone believe for a second that there are a significant number of fans that are outraged over the release of a LotR slot machine to the point of causing "irreparable harm to Tolkien's legacy"?
Good point. I wasn't. I probably wouldn't ever have even known about it had it not been for this article. And I'm really having a hard time... caring.
I'm afraid someone took... (Score:2)
...A real gamble.
Gameplay? (Score:3)
From the summary:
which allows the creation of LotR merchandise but not LotR 'intangibles,' like the experience of playing a slot machine game.
I haven't played (or seen) the LotR slot machines, but is the gameplay really themed to LotR? Most themed slot machines I've played are slot machines with themed graphics, but the gameplay is pretty much like every other slot machine out there. Does the gameplay of these slots have anything to do with the books? (aside from something like needing to roll 3 Gandalfs to hit the jackpot with a 3X The One Ring multiplier.
this infringing conduct has outraged Tolkien's devoted fan base,
I'd consider myself a Tolkien fan, but the only thing I'm outraged about is that his estate is still able to make money from the books 40 years after his death. It should have fallen out of copyright long ago and we should be seeing lots of derivative works building upon the stories.
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You play a character. Try not to get Boromir.
Time is running out. (Score:2)
It's pretty sad that a book written in 1937, The Hobbit, will be under copyright for 106 years. Their 1842 law was much better, 42 years or 7 years after death, which ever was longer.
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Yeah, Christopher and his kids will probably never have to work for a living, but his grandchildren may have to get a job.
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But what is this jealousy over the children getting a free ride? Are parents not allowed to try to leave their children with money?
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I prefer the length of copyright in Roman, Ur-Nammu's or Hammurabi's law.
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Is there a LotR breakfast cereal? (Score:2, Funny)
There should be a spaceballs like parody with Gandalf selling merchandise.
There goes my idea (Score:5, Funny)
So what about... (Score:2)
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Wrong purists...
I had to laugh (Score:3)
"this infringing conduct has outraged Tolkien's devoted fan base, causing irreparable harm to Tolkien's legacy and reputation and the valuable goodwill generated by his works."
Yeh, because Peter Jackson's atrocities didn't do this already?
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On the other hand..... (Score:4, Funny)
Damage (Score:2)
causing irreparable harm to Tolkien's legacy and reputation and the valuable goodwill generated by his works
You know WHAT is causing irreparable harm to Tolkien's legacy and reputation and the valuable goodwill generated by his works? The Tolkien Estate sueing the crap out of everyone, even Sauron (tm) in his Dark Tower of Barad-dûr (tm) would be ashamed of them.
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This does suck (Score:2)
Okay, yeah, a LotR slot machine may be repulsive.
But I find the fact that Tolkien has been dead just shy of 40 years but we're still dealing with rights on his work to be even more repulsive.
I can understand why his estate works so hard to protect the rights. If they didn't have them, they'd have to get real jobs instead of leaching off of an ancestor.
LotR Pinball (Score:2)
How's this any different tha the LotR Pinball machine?
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?gid=4858 [ipdb.org]
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There are still questions as to whether HP Lovecraft's later works are public domain, so I think LotR and the Hobbit, both of which had second editions published in the 1960s are very much still under copyright.
What's more, it seems likely that major elements of this Hobbit "trilogy" are based in part of writings not published until 1980 in Unfinished Tales.
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How long has that guy been dead? Surely these books are public domain by now. If not, please let me know. I have been making some cool middle-earth art that is completely unrelated to the movies. I understand that the movies should have their stuff protected for several more years.
At the risk of feeding the troll, J.R.R. died in 1973. Though, due to the variances of copyright law, it appears that LOTR is protected until 95 years after date of publication [cornell.edu], which would be around 2050 (LOTR was published in the UK and US in three volumes in the mid-fifties).
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