Sony Announces Game Streaming Service 144
You may remember Gaikai, a company built on the idea of cloud-based gaming. The idea was that a remote server would run the game and stream all graphics and sound to a player's device, which would allow underpowered or obsolete machines to run modern, graphically demanding games on high settings. In 2012, Sony purchased Gaikai. Now, they've announced at CES that their cloud gaming tech (dubbed 'PlayStation Now') is just about ready for the public. CES attendees will be able to try it out, and Sony will begin a closed beta test in the U.S. later this month. Full release is planned for summer. It will first support streaming to PS3s, PS4s, and certain Sony TV models. Later, it will expand more broadly to various non-Sony "internet-connected devices." Players will have the option to rent games or to subscribe for continued access. Forbes reports, "According to Sony, gamers who own disc- or digital-based games will not have access to those games via PS Now free of charge."
Most updated version != best (Score:3, Interesting)
"Always play the most updated version of your game." Remove version control from my hands and I'm not sure I'll be happy with that. I've played a few games where the next version was, IMHO, inferior in some aspect I valued.
Re: (Score:3)
In all the honesty, steam largely removes version control from you as well, and few are complaining in the long run.
Re: (Score:2)
Some complain though. Steam has screwed stuff up in the past, with loud outcries from players of a game suddenly discovering new bugs or limitations. I always make sure to disable auto-update of games so that updating is in my control. I think the last official update for Fallout New Vegas added a major bug which is only fixed through unofficial mods (the overpowered legion assassins).
Then there's some weird stuff, game makers doing the equivalent of "director's cut" by changing content after the fact.
Re: (Score:2)
Also useful for mods and early access games.
Kerbal Space Program updates often break popular mods, so you options are to just not update, or wait for the modder to get around to updating it. With Auto-Update on, then when the Dev's push a patch you'll find your whole save game gone or vital parts broken.
Re:Most updated version != best (Score:4, Insightful)
Some people complain about everything. The point is that overwhelming majority doesn't.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Especially given Sony's record.
Re: (Score:2)
Except that you only have access to either the original unpatched version or the latest patched version, no access to anything in between. But ya, this is steam, you don't own a game you only rent it and should be grateful instead of speaking heretical criticisms.
Re: (Score:2)
But ya, this is steam, you don't own a game you only rent it and should be grateful instead of speaking heretical criticisms.
That would include the numerous DRM-free games available through Steam? You know, the ones that work without Steam running.
Re: (Score:2)
This isn't a troll question, but an honest one: What is the DRM-free vs. DRMed ration for mainstream games on Steam? I'm not a Steam user, and I hear people talking about non-DRM games on Steam, but I have no idea if this is almost universal, common, or rare. Knowing some studios (EA, I'm looking in your direction), I imagine all their games are DRMed, But is this the norm or the exception?
Re: (Score:2)
What is the DRM-free vs. DRMed ration for mainstream games on Steam?
Absolutely no idea. I doubt even Valve knows for sure.
Re: (Score:2)
Valve basically wants Steam to be the one and only online game store, plus the launcher for all your games even the ones that can stand alone. Like GFWL on steroids. So they offer games that you can trivially get elsewhere; ie, MMOs which make no sense being tied in any way to Steam except as another marketing outlet. I don't know how many non-DRM games they have because I can get the ones I want elsewhere and more conveniently.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There's always GOG.com, which has only DRM free games.
SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Tricky... I would have to first by a playstation before I could boycott the service.
Maybe you could just download a PS emulator, even a crappy one, and then go on with the boycott. I don't think they'd listen to you. Particularly if there's a bucket of people trying to push past nay-sayers and waiving their credit cards, willing to be among the first to sign up.
It's probably best to camp on the sidelines, watch the parade and then see if it actually ends in a parade of tears. If there's something you have to have and this becomes the only avenue to get it, your stuck.
Re: (Score:3)
Time for a boycott?
Lack of money will change there thinking very fast.
You fossil.
People with that mindset said, "nobody would ever pay $70 (or more) a month for mobile phone service" and then the telecoms and smart phone makers proved that completely wrong. There's, in my opinion, a huge market of players and potential players who don't care and will flock to this. The only thing you can hope for is they will still make physical copies available.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Boycotts don't work, unless they are well publicized and have a huge following. Chances are you might never seen one that effective in your lifetime.
There are always petitions. Though companies are great at ignoring petitions, especially internet petitions, unless they get a massive number of signatures.
Something that has a higher probability of working. It's a letter writing campaign. Not email, actual snail mail get a stamp dead tree format communication protocol.
Yes, have people send them physical let
Re: (Score:2)
Time for a boycott?
Why do you want to boycott it?
Re: (Score:2)
I can't imagine that a deliberate boycott can be necessary. Game companies have a hard enough time keeping their servers up at launch, for vastly underestimating demand, and that's often for just authentication purposes, alone. The demands this kind of service has on its servers is ludicrous (just how many players can any individual machine in the cloud support, anyway?), let alone the problems that arise when you account for latency. I just don't know how they can reasonably accomplish their goals.
Re: (Score:2)
Better idea:
1) Encourage lots of people to get the service
2) Wait a few months for them to sink money into hardware and infrastructure due to high demand
3) Hit them with a boycott
4) Anti-profit!
Re: (Score:2)
What a radical idea! You need to expand on this "if you don't like it, don't buy it" idea. It could revolutionise modern day consumerism!
Even at a personal level; the number of times I've paid for stuff I didn't want and knew I wouldn't like. If I'd known I had the option of not buying it... well I'd be a rich man without a house full of junk!
Sony? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
who trusts them?
The kind of people who give their trust away very, very easily. I don't mean gullible, I mean people who put a low value on that trust.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd thrust them. Provided they're near a cliff.
Re: (Score:2)
Who trusts *any* major corporation these days?
Re: (Score:2)
As I recall OnLive was pretty decent for most instances, and is what Gaikai is modeled after. Only times people really seemed to complain was for really twitchy fighting games, when a fraction of a second really mattered.
What I am not too keen for is GaaS(Gaming as a Service), not a fan of paying a regular subscription fee for a non-MMO game.
Re: (Score:2)
The ultimate goal: (Score:4, Insightful)
"Pay per shot".
Re: (Score:3)
"Pay per shot".
Sony will team up with the NSA and they'll be watching how you shoot and what you shot.
Arcades died (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:1)
Why bother paying for useless brick & mortar when the customers have nice comfy homes?
Showrooms have value (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Because this is better. They don't have to pay rent on an arcade. They don't have to pay for much of the machinery. They get to deal in bits, not atoms, and that's always cheaper.
Re: (Score:2)
Yep, it's DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
The game doesn't even run locally. All you get is streaming video/audio and all the lag you'd expect (including controller lag), which is a recipe for disaster in North America (before you even consider data caps).
Let's say you're lucky enough to have a 30mb/s connection. Why would you want to use it to transfer your game's video instead of, uh, a DVI cable, which is capable of 4 Gb/s? The people who developed DVI apparently understood that that 1920 x 1200 pixels w/ 24 bits/pixels @ 60Hz results in bandwidth well over 3 Gb/s. The people who push this stuff seem very, very confused (at best).
Some people consider IPS monitors unsuitable for games requiring fast reflexes (i.e. FPSes) due to their double-digit response times. Internet latency is often worse and certainly more unpredictable than LCD monitor response time, and with this tech it applies to audio and keyboard/controller/etc input too.
Those of us who know anything about bandwidth and compression and (especially) latency can see the enormous technical obstacles facing a service like this, and no one has ever done anything to explain how they intend to solve them. Onlive did everything they could to lock out independent reviewers with NDAs and closed demonstrations. A friend of mine described it as the gaming equivalent of the perpetual motion scam, and IMO that's spot on (except that it would still have the draconian DRM issues even if it worked perfectly).
Streaming games appear designed from the ground up to benefit the game publishers and fuck the customers, exactly what you'd expect from any DRM system.
Re: (Score:2)
Remember what happened when Microsoft first announced the Xbone with the always on DRM?
How Sony crucified them over offline play, easy sharing, used games, etc?
And then go an announce the PS4 will never do that?
Well, Sony was right - the PS4 won't do it. They'll put games on their streaming service which do the same thing. Minus the ONE USEFUL feature that the Xbone initially offered - the ability to sell/transfer a game license to someone else! (I.e., used game sale - sure they allowed for the possibility
Re: (Score:1, Interesting)
"Pay per shot".
We already have that. They're called Casinos.
A big part of the problem is that game makers (and most companies in America) are for-profit. Their whole existence is to create profit for the owner/shareholders.
If we switched to a "break even, do what you love because you love it" model, there might be some changes...
Re: (Score:2)
and the Casinos are controlled by out side party's.
also you can win big with a bet per pull that is way less then a cost of a game.
Re: (Score:1)
"Pay per shot".
We already have that. They're called Casinos.
Or prostitutes.
Re: (Score:3)
Old CEO did make a comment about having players pay per bullet if they could.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.354961-EA-John-Riccitiello-thinking-about-charging-money-for-bullets-in-games?page=1 [escapistmagazine.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Access games you purchased for free? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Who would bother to ask Sony if they could play games they purchased free of charge? I would be surprised if Sony allowed that- the whole idea of this is a new revenue stream.
1. Set the hook
2. Reel them in
...
Profit!!!
Re: (Score:3)
All they need is a horde of younger players who love the idea who will shout down any older person who dares to object. That's how we got to the state where DRM is accepted and applauded in video games, so the publishers are now just squeezing tighter.
Re: (Score:2)
You're missing context. When the PS4 was first announced, one of the questions people had was "backwards compatibility?" to which Sony replied "Not natively, but just wait for our streaming service!" Thus, it was widely speculated that, to both fulfill a fan feature wish AND bootstrap a new service, Sony would support adding previously-purchased games to your streaming account.
I wonder if... (Score:5, Funny)
What video providers use MKV? (Score:1)
Re:What video providers use MKV? (Score:4, Informative)
MKV has some amazingly useful and underutilized features. Everyone is (or should be) familiar with how it can do multiple audio/video/subtitle streams. It's chapter functionality is also really nice. The best and neatest thing is it's ability to pull in a separate file for a chapter. So instead of having 30 different TV show files each with the same opening and closing scene, you have those two scenes as separate files which are mixed in on the fly.
Data deduplication is a wonderful thing.
Re: (Score:2)
The end of a show is the credits, where the episode number, director and even line producer change on each episode.
Some shows yes, some shows no. It's not unusual for Anime series to have canned credits on the way out which change in no particulars. And guess who actually uses MKV?
Re: (Score:3)
It's not unusual for Anime series to have canned credits on the way out which change in no particulars. And guess who actually uses MKV?
The people who pirate anime who are also obsessed with subtitles.
Re: (Score:2)
Copyright infringers use mkv because it is arguably the best container format with the fewest restrictions. They have no reasons to use inferior products. The people who follow the rules are stuck with the shit that microsoft, sony, and apple feed them. They are designed to lock people into proprietary technology in order to secure revenue. These formats are designed to restrict rather than empower people.
Re: (Score:2)
Copyright infringers use mkv because it is arguably the best container format with the fewest restrictions.
I would call not being able to be played on consumer electronic hardware a serious restriction. I sometimes believe that the pirates use MKV just out of a sense of "leetness" rather than actual features. Not withstanding that a lot of pirates are Russian and well it's called "Mastroska" for a reason.
Re: (Score:2)
I would call not being able to be played on consumer electronic hardware a serious restriction.
Yes it is, but mkv still has fewer restrictions than other container formats
I sometimes believe that the pirates use MKV just out of a sense of "leetness" rather than actual features.
Being an open standard is definitely an important feature, aside from being leet. Mkv is not just *an* open video container, it is the most prominent and widely used open video container format.
Being an open video container means that it is easier to for 3rd parties to develop applications that support these files. This is good for healthy competition and consumers. This is not good if you are a big company trying to solidify you
Columbia Pictures (Score:2)
Why do you dismiss YouTube
Because PlayStation 3 and PlayStation 4 systems can already view YouTube even without MKV support.
why does it matter if a corporation has backed MKV or not?
Sony owns a movie studio. A company that owns a movie studio would be more likely to back a format used by other movie studios.
Re: (Score:2)
A company like sony would be more likely to use its leverage in the consumer electronics space to force other movie studios to use whatever format they use.
And this is why Sony took the lead in forming the Blu-ray Disc Association and promoting the format through its PlayStation 3 console. Sony and the rest of the Motion Picture Association want you using BDs, not MKVs.
Features cost money to add (Score:2)
Videos I know (Score:2)
which major legitimate video provider uses MKV?
People, millions of them. It's not just corporations that make videos you know.
Corporations make videos that I know. Individuals make videos that I don't know. Corporations have marketing departments strong enough to turn videos into videos I know.
Try 2: It's called economies of scale. I was under the impression that there was more demand for set-top devices for watching movies and television series distributed by major studios than for set-top devices for watching movies and television series self-published by individuals. Besides, services for self-publication of videos created b
Re: (Score:2)
I thought [Matroska] was used for format shifting, copyright infringement, and infringing format shifting
I store many of my movies in MKV format, back ups in particular.
That's what I was referring to. I think Sony left out Matroska support because Sony owns Columbia Pictures, and from Sony's point of view, "back ups" compete unfairly with Columbia Pictures.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually the PS3 will not play any kind of backups protected by Cinavia (including mp4 files, or transcoded DLNA network streams).
The PS3
will
play mkv files streamed via DLNA. It just won't play them locally.
You can go download a pirated copy of a new movie or make your own backup yourself in any format mp4, mkv, wmv, etc, and it won't play in a PS3.
It's trivial to transcode any video to mp4 or mkv. Not supporting mkvs doesn't do anything to stop any piracy. They already have a way to filter out pirated
Re: (Score:2)
back ups in particular.
These are "pressed" discs...you really don't need "backups" of those discs.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
a little parental discipline handles that problem
"You don't play with those, you have Dad or Mom put them in"
DVD's are fairly scratch resistant, Blu-rays more so.
Re: (Score:2)
The kid was an example of something that can happen to make you lose your data. In the same way that you might be cautious with handling of your discs, or being cautious in allowing your kids to handle discs, another way to be cautious is to backup your data.
Not too mention that it is pretty nice not having to be constantly loading and ejecting discs every time you want to consume media. I don't listen to CDs or watch DVD's anymore. I back them all up on a server so that I can just select them from a lis
Re: (Score:2)
Mortal Kombat V? Thats the best one to stream. Mash any button and get a randomized video, no lag.
Re: I wonder if... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder if I can use Gaikai to play a game I've always wanted on my PS3 called "watch a fucking MKV file"
You can use PS3MediaServer to "watch a fucking MKV file", but it will require your PC to be on and transcoding. Works on other players as well, including the Xbox 360. And it's free. Happy new year.
Re: (Score:2)
Thats exactly what I do. But when I go to my friends hosue, playig an mkv file is a bit more elaborate than just throwing it on a thumb drive. I either have to set up ps3media server at their house on one of his computers (if it's fast enough), or bring my own computer, or transcode the file.
I have this computer (a PS3) that is fast enough to play 1080p video. It's cool if I can stream it video from another computer, but I sucks that my *only* option is to have another fast enough computer for playing m
Everyone knows that v1.2 of Doom is the right ver. (Score:1)
It was the first version with the "Nightmare" skill level, as well as not having yet removed the swastika room. Many, many little changes were made to Doom up until v1.9, which was the final one.
If I put in my pressed CD of Tomb Raider for Saturn today, it will run *exactly* like it did back then. Any bug fixes and changes that they made (and they did do it, a lot) later is not for me. Half-assed nostalgia sucks. I want the real deal, exactly like it was back then.
Streamed gaming is just wrong, just like "t
Re:Everyone knows that v1.2 of Doom is the right v (Score:4, Informative)
It was the first version with the "Nightmare" skill level, as well as not having yet removed the swastika room. Many, many little changes were made to Doom up until v1.9, which was the final one.
Aha I just played through Doom 1 and I was damned sure when I lowered that particular patform that it formed a swastika and was confused by its slightly different shape. I wondered if I misremembered it. Thanks for clearing that up.
As for streamed games relative to versions that ship has sailed. Steam only sends you the latest version, and sure you can disable updates but what does that really get you exactly? You can't easily go backwards or install an old version later, and you usually need the new version to do any kind of multiplayer.
And the same stuff applies to disc based console games too. Sure you have the disk... 1.0 but if 1.2 was the best and 1.9 is the current... you have 1.0 or 1.9... good luck ever getting 1.2 on your xbo?? or ps??.
Even so I dislike intensely streamed games for many scenarios. But it might not be all bad for certain competitive genres if the lag is reduced enough -- as it can dramatically reduce cheating.
Re: (Score:2)
"and sure you can disable updates but what does that really get you exactly?"
Mod compatibility.
Re: (Score:2)
That only works if you happen to "freeze" at the right version.
Playstation now Thin Client (Score:1)
"first support streaming to PS3s, PS4s, and certain Sony TV models".
So, essentially streaming current gen Playstation quality games to your home, without requiring you to purchase any Playstation hardware!? Sony is going to 0wn current gaming console wars and truly bring high-end quality gaming to the masses if Playstation Now takes off!
I can imagine this being integrated in to all sorts of non-Sony devices (mobiles, tablets, low-end laptops etc) as you would only need to port the 'thin' Playstation Now c
Re: (Score:2)
"first support streaming to PS3s, PS4s, and certain Sony TV models".
So, essentially streaming current gen Playstation quality games to your home, without requiring you to purchase any Playstation hardware!? Sony is going to 0wn current gaming console wars and truly bring high-end quality gaming to the masses if Playstation Now takes off!
I can imagine this being integrated in to all sorts of non-Sony devices (mobiles, tablets, low-end laptops etc) as you would only need to port the 'thin' Playstation Now client to get the games to work.
Building the hardware, packaging it, distributing it, dealing with customer service, returns, etc. Is probably wearing on them. They're still going to have some issues with support on non-Sony hardware, though only supporting a limited list of standard drivers and hardware is a time-honored tradition.
Re: (Score:2)
More likely, they fear the $50 quad core android sticks with quite decent 3d specs that you can just plug into the back of your TV. Add a bluetooth controller, and game away.
Heh, heh (Score:2)
So Sony considers the PS3 and PS4 to be "underpowered" hardware, eh? :P :P :P
Re: (Score:2)
So Sony considers the PS3 and PS4 to be "underpowered" hardware, eh? :P :P :P
Would you rather sell your game to 250 million (or more) potential gamers or only those who bought your hardware?
The timing of this is intriguing.
Cloud gaming = DRM.. (Score:3)
... let's just say that right now, this is all just marketing to cover up the fact that game ownership is being undermined and taken away and they are feeding the dumb half to the population PR to shove it down their throats.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Eventually everybody will have a 100Mbps+ low latency networks. It may take another decade or two but I'm sure it will happen, at least in the developed world.
Everybody, meet Rural America.
Rural America, meet Everybody.
"Everybody," for values of everybody that are less than 100%
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
... let's just say that right now, this is all just marketing to cover up the fact that game ownership is being undermined and taken away and they are feeding the dumb half to the population PR to shove it down their throats.
The delivery model is shifting. So what? I have a large DVD / Blu Ray collection; most of which gets watched maybe once or twice. Much of it is available on Netflix so I don't even bother to rip my DVDs since it's easier to stream it than rip it. They only rips are of older shows that are not available for streaming or stuff I want on my iPad to watch while traveling. I'd be happy to be able to d/l it from Netflix and have it viewable for some period of time before I need to reverify an account; in fact tha
Latency (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a hard time believing they can overcome the latency problems to my satisfaction. If you can play Frogger on this service than that's some pretty darn good latency.
Re: (Score:2)
There is some leniency available here. A lot of TV's have latency in the range of 40 to 80 ms, which doesn't seem like an unreasonable target for a service spitting out a constant UDP stream. Even if it's not 100% as responsive, it would probably still be more than good enough for most games.
The real question is how they plan to sell this kind of service when so many ISP's are moving towards metered service.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
It's a very tight engineering challenge. But IMHO, its doable.
At 30/60fps your looking at a window of 40/30ms respectivey between frames.
I don't own a console but in what format flame wars I stumble upon. Many console games running at 30fps seems to be a common complaint.
So, assuming that many console gamers are used to such low fps gaming. Lets use 30fps for our math here.
That is 40ms between frames to receive the next one, get it decompressed and pushed to the fame buffer.
A cursory google for Gaiki press
Re: (Score:2)
I have a great connection, super low latency. Yet, somehow I doubt it can compare to the latency of the wireless signal of my PS4 controller. Packets take time to get from your house to Gaikai servers, no matter how good your connection is, and it's going to be longer than a wireless signal 10 feet away.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, absolutely, you sum it, and the delay of your TV as well. If it can compare to my controller latency, though, I consider it reasonably low, even when summed together.
The problem is not average latency, either. Any connection is going to have latency spikes (unlike my controller), and those will be unacceptable. This is not Netflix which can queue up some data in advance of it being needed. Netflix has issues, anyway, and it doesn't need to respond to your inputs with a new video frame 60 times per
Re: (Score:1)
It is not the old games, it is your new LCD monitor/tv, most of them have a lot of input lag. Try to play super meat boy on your LCD and compare against an old CRT.
Re: (Score:1)
It is not the old games, it is your new LCD monitor/tv, most of them have a lot of input lag. Try to play super meat boy on your LCD and compare against an old CRT.
talence.
Re: (Score:1)
Think that's a good idea? (Score:2)
If you think that running everything about your game on some server and your computer only acting as some sort of display for it, ask anyone who got the original Final Fantasy XIV where Square Enix did exactly that and collect a few thoughts on how great an idea that is.
Hint: It was so great an idea that Square Enix pretty much trashed the game, redid it from scratch and just recently re-released it, about 2 (or was it 4?) years after its original release.
The next battleground ... (Score:3)
Let's get some perspective here (Score:2)
Yes, it's "the ultimate game DRM" but, realistically, it's unlikely to displace conventional means of distribution. Two main reasons for this. Firstly, latency and bandwidth will inevitably be issues for many consumers, and publishers will lose money if they cannot also offer their games as disks or digital downloads. In other words, for a lot of people this will just be unplayable. I doubt it would ever work satisfactorily for FPS games. Secondly, for next gen and (particularly) PC titles, streamed graphi