Crowdfunded Android Console Ouya Reportedly Seeking Buyout 123
An anonymous reader writes: Ouya, the Android-based games console, enjoyed one of the most successful crowdfunding campaigns to date, raising $8.6 million after asking for only $960,000. But now that the console has been on the market for a while, the company is struggling. After borrowing roughly $25 million from investors to keep it going, they're now trying to restructure the debt, and reportedly seeking a buyout. "Interest in Ouya's microconsole has dropped considerably since its launch back in 2013, where it had to offer store credit to dissatisfied Kickstarter backers for failing to deliver devices on time. Following disappointing sales figures for early games, the company has tried several times to turn its fortunes around."
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It's already just $100. I don't know your financial situation, but if something came out in 2013 and, two years later, you're still eagerly awaiting it getting discounted, you probably should have just bought it in the first place.
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It's already just $100.
It isn't worth $100. The controller is crap, the unit overheats, and you can get more powerful android sticks for less.
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So instead of the OUYA package, which combination of Android stick and controller do you recommend for around $100?
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Input device and session length are orthogonal (Score:2)
The problem with this idea is...well most mobile games really aren't designed to be played like a console, they are designed for touch tablets and for very short gameplay.
Which are orthogonal. It's possible to have a long-form touch-driven game or a short-form gamepad-driven game.
So if somebody asked me what kind of cheap console to get? You can get an X360 or PS3 used for less than $100 most places
The difference that before OUYA's Kickstarter campaign, it was even harder for a new developer to get a TV-oriented game published on one of those consoles. This was leading to a trend of risk-averse sameness among AAA games. The campaign's momentum gave Sony and Microsoft a kick in the pants to get their policies revised for the next generation.
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Not only that, but you can buy a Playstation TV for what is it, $75 now? With that you get access to a bunch of PROVEN PSone, PSP and Vita games better than most of the F2P monetized crap on Android, access to Playstation Now AND you can stream from a PS4.
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More realistically, the cost of the PS TV is $89 for the controller bundle. But your main point stands, of course...
I have an Ouya. It's an okay emulator I guess. Nothing about it is spectacular and the controller is downright awful. It's pretty much mandatory to replace the stock Ouya controller with a DS3 anyway... So the real cost for the Ouya is more like $140, making something that's $90 a lot more attractive for sure. Aside from the terrible selection and overall bugginess of the games the controller
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Lied about Openness (Score:2)
It isn't worth $100. The controller is crap, the unit overheats, and you can get more powerful android sticks for less.
And you shouldn't even buy one hoping to hack it either.
Here's what the Kickstarter page said about openness and hackability:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console [kickstarter.com]
But
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While I agree with everything you said, if they get really cheap then the community will probably go to the effort of figuring out how to provide recovery. There must be some sort of way to accomplish it. They couldn't release a console they couldn't service, not because of principles but because they wouldn't even manage to get it out the door.
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all of that crap you quoted about custom firmware and open recovery mode has zero to bearing on their financial status and problems. the employee is right, almost no one, relatively speaking, is going to base their decision to purchase an Ouya on whether it supports custom firmware.
the truth is that it was some amount of engineering and support to give customers the whole enchilada, and they were already struggling and didn't have the resources. don't start reading malice into the situation.
sounds like you
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the employee is right, almost no one, relatively speaking, is going to base their decision to purchase an Ouya on whether it supports custom firmware.
The employee is technically correct, but misses the point. You have to please the developers. Playstation beat Saturn like a pinata in part because developers hated the Saturn and loved the Playstation. Xbox got a foothold in part because developers hated the PS2 and loved the Xbox, ditto PS3 and 360, in spite of ridiculous failure rates. It was just easier to make good games for those platforms, so there were more good games. No rocket surgeon degree required for understanding.
Ouya users mostly didn't give
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You have to please the developers.
why would i, as a developer, care if i could install a custom firmware? wouldn't i want to be testing my game on the firmware that's going to be run by 99.999% of users?
really, i'm asking.
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why would i, as a developer, care if i could install a custom firmware? wouldn't i want to be testing my game on the firmware that's going to be run by 99.999% of users?
Because it makes development easier in some way, or provides a feature expected in a later release.
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Because it makes development easier in some way
what way?
provides a feature expected in a later release.
what feature?
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all of that crap you quoted about custom firmware and open recovery mode has zero to bearing on their financial status and problems.
That might (or might not) be true, but it should have some bearing (as it did for me) on whether people who expect hackability should buy one, even at a clearance price.
the employee is right, almost no one, relatively speaking, is going to base their decision to purchase an Ouya on whether it supports custom firmware.
I suspect the promise of such on their kickstarter page (positively) influenced their backers' donations, just like Ouya knew it would. Why promise it, unless they know it's something people want?
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Check target. my local one has them $80 on the clearance table in the electronics section.
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Where have you seen it for $100? Might be worth it to pick one up, but it's coming up $160 on Amazon.
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$130 on eBay, which is still not $100, but better than Amazon. You've got to check both those two. Arguably, no others any more. It's been a while since Newegg was cheapest on anything they weren't clearing, for example.
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Damn it. In-store only and they don't have a store within 600 miles.
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You had hopes for an underpowered Android console no one was obviously going to release good games for...?
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It wasn't powerful, so no competition with the real consoles. It wasn't open, so developers and freetards didn't want it. It was also way too expensive and had a stupid name.
It was like OpenPandora all over again.
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Except they did deliver and the only reason for the price increase was that Craig refused to file suit against the circuit company for destroying all those boards.
Fair enough, but in the long run, you still ended up with a weak business plan (and unwillingness to engage in the unpleasant sides of business) resulting in underpowered hardware at an extremely uncompetitive price.
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Kickstarter (Score:2, Funny)
It worked for their crappy DIY Android box.
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Recently it seems more Kickstarters end in fiasco/resentment than success.
Re:Kickstarter (Score:5, Informative)
That's normal for business in general. Most businesses end in disappointment after a short time.
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fiasco? people running this campaign made money, where do you think this debt comes from?
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Recently it seems more Kickstarters end in fiasco/resentment than success.
That's because most people with great ideas are bad at business. Creative types tend to shun business models for catwalk models. They can't be burdened with the task of actually running a business. There are notable exceptions but for most if they don't partner with an MBA/CPA the business is doomed.
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That's because most people with great ideas are bad at business.
okay, but that's not what happened here. Ouya was a mediocre Android device with a controller and very few games that took advantage of the controller. it's claims of openness, even if true, excited hackers but not consumers or game developers.
"Had to" (Score:2)
There are some kick starters that deliver nothing to anyone and no refunds...
If you need money to survive, you do not "have to" send money back to backers, especially not if the only problem is that you were late (I expect at least a year delay on Kickstarter hardware by default).
I doubt that was really what sent them over the edge though.
Re:"Had to" (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that that Kickstarter is really nothing more than distributed venture capital. Except that normal venture capital gives you a share of the company or future profits. That two-way exchange makes it clear what you are getting for your money - part ownership of the company. As a part-owner/investor, you're fully aware of the risk that comes with it - you know you could lose all your money and have nothing to show for it if the company should fail.
You don't get that with Kickstarter. All you get is a promise for a future product. Consequently, the "investors" see themselves (accurately) as customers. And with that perception comes certain expectations, like wanting to get your money back if the product is not delivered or not delivered on time.
Kickstarter opened up the crowd-funding market but I think this is what's going to trip them up - discontent among users about failed projects. The eventual winner in the crowd-funding market is going to be a company which recognizes that this is nothing more than distributed venture capital, and treats it as such by letting "investors" buy "shares" of the companies seeking funding thus making it obvious that they are also buying all the risk that comes with that. And if the company promises to deliver sample products to shareholders, that's all it is - a promise. Not a contractual obligation.
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The people making the product see investors as customers as well. They're likely getting a very skewed idea of the demand for their product.
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The eventual winner in the crowd-funding market is going to be a company which recognizes that this is nothing more than distributed venture capital, and treats it as such by letting "investors" buy "shares"
If by "winner" you mean "subject of a massive SEC investigation due to their illegal business model" then yes, that company will be the winner.
Why is that a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that that Kickstarter is really nothing more than distributed venture capital. Except that normal venture capital gives you a share of the company or future profits.
Here's a thought - what if that is OK? What if someone is OK being a venture capitalist whose only return is to possibly get a cool product they would like to see exist?
I think the real "problem" if there is one, is people who think of Kickstarter as a store instead of venture capital with product as a return.
All you get is a promise for a future product.
You don't get that; you get a promise they will *try to create* the product. The work Kickstarter has done in terms of validation and required disclosure is to try and make it as clear as possible, how likely that promise is to be kept.
discontent among users about failed projects
Those users can go take a flying leap as far as I'm concerned. I think there are enough people that understand what Kickstarter is, that it will continue to do well.
treats it as such by letting "investors" buy "shares" of the companies seeking funding thus making it obvious that they are also buying all the risk that comes with that
Sorry but I wouldn't touch that nebulous piece of crap with a ten foot pole. What Kickstarter is now is pretty clear I think, at this point everyone knows Kickstarters can fail, so they know there is risk. The disclosure items at the bottom give a good amount of information to fairly evaluate that risk.
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What if someone is OK being a venture capitalist whose only return is to possibly get a cool product they would like to see exist?
Why should that be OK? That makes Kickstarter sound like an organization with a vested interest in getting people to act against their own interest. The whole point of spending money on a product is to get something tangible in return. With services, you have something measurable done to you. In the case of Kickstarter, there's a chance you'll get a product you want — but there's also a chance you'll just get the feeling that you participated in something that might have been when, in actuality, your
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You don't get that with Kickstarter. All you get is a promise for a future product. Consequently, the "investors" see themselves (accurately) as customers. And with that perception comes certain expectations, like wanting to get your money back if the product is not delivered or not delivered on time.
I've only contributed to one Kickstarter. It was called "Code Hero" [kickstarter.com], and I contributed $13.37 ("1337 contributor") for which they promised early access to the beta. After I played the beta, I knew the project was going to tank, but I always saw this more as a charitable donation than anything else.
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That's on its face illegal in the USA, though. You'd have to go through the hard mile with the SEC and the IRS before that type of scheme could happen.
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That's on its face illegal in the USA, though. You'd have to go through the hard mile with the SEC and the IRS before that type of scheme could happen.
Yes.
Thanks to the US government 'protecting' you from companies that take your money, promise a share of the business and then never deliver, you're only allowed to give your money to companies that take your money, don't promise a share of the business, and may or may not do anything. Which is clearly much, much better.
It is better (Score:2)
It is actually a lot better, because it's much better you may get nothing for your money.
When there are "protections" in place not only do a lot of things not happen because they cannot offer an "appropriate" level of guarantee, but also many times that which is guaranteed is not delivered on for one obscure legal reason or another.
I'd rather have the exception that something may fail than a fake promise I'll be re-embursed if it fails.
If I really want a share of the business, nothing stops me from going to
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If I really want a share of the business, nothing stops me from going to them directly and offering that.
Although there is nothing that stops you from going to a company and offering them some money for a share of the company, there is probably something that prevents them from taking you up on that offer: the SEC.
You can of course always give your money to the company (e.g., kickstarter), but your money is not legally protected the same an investor (e.g, share of the profit, no liquidity, etc). Basically the SEC rules say you can only invest in a non-public company if you are qualified investor (basically hav
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Not sure why you started with this premise, as you then immediately explain both why that's not the problem, and that it's not correct.
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The problem is that that Kickstarter is really nothing more than distributed venture capital. Except that normal venture capital gives you a share of the company or future profits. That two-way exchange makes it clear what you are getting for your money - part ownership of the company. As a part-owner/investor, you're fully aware of the risk that comes with it - you know you could lose all your money and have nothing to show for it if the company should fail.
Kickstarter is explicitly not a VC platform. A kickstarter pledge isn't an investment, it's a gift. The "thank you rewards" are the equivalent of the tote bag you get for pledging to PBS. Kickstarter was started as an alternative to fund projects that couldn't get funding through traditional avenues of grants, patronage, or VC. This was a way to get the $50k for your student film without maxing your parents' credit cards.
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Tablets and technology march on (Score:5, Interesting)
Ouya has loads of competition now from ARM "sticks" and media adapters like the Fire, Roku or Cu Box. And each year brings more capable hardware while Ouja stays the same. The new raspberry pi 2 or Amazon Fire are arguably superior in all ways. Certainly both those alternatives make excellent XBMC/Kodi boxes.
And competition has also come from tablets in terms of casual gaming. Tablets benefit from huge economies of scale and large online market ecosystems. Ouja was always going to be a niche market appealing to techies and gamers.
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Ouja was always going to be a niche market appealing to techies and gamers.
Niche market, yes, but it seems like one of Ouya's (the company's) biggest problems was that they thought that they could appeal to "gamers."
If you consider yourself a gamer, then you probably already own one of the big-name consoles. Recent consoles have a fair amount of support for the kind of indie games that Ouya was hoping would form the backbone of their library, and so there's not much of a strong incentive to get an Ouya as well. And it was obvious that the big game studios were never going to dev
W/o OUYA, would the consoles have been as open? (Score:4, Insightful)
Recent consoles have a fair amount of support for the kind of indie games that Ouya was hoping would form the backbone of their library
Would the console makers be as open to indies as they are today if OUYA had never shipped? Before OUYA gained momentum on Kickstarter, Nintendo still had ban on home offices in the developer requirements it posted on WarioWorld.com. This provision caused problems for Robert Pelloni's company when he wanted to bring Bob's Game to Nintendo DS because the company was operating out of an office in Pelloni's home. And before OUYA gained momentum on Kickstarter, Microsoft was going to require indie developers on Xbox One to work through an established publisher big enough to get retail discs into Walmart. OUYA showed that demand for smaller scale games on television monitors existed.
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Would the console makers be as open to indies as they are today if OUYA had never shipped?
They were reasonably open to indies BEFORE Ouya shipped, though they are more so today.
This provision caused problems for Robert Pelloni's company when he wanted to bring Bob's Game to Nintendo DS because the company was operating out of an office in Pelloni's home.
Bob Pelloni's company was just HIM. Aint no way Nintendo was going to give him a license or dev kit when he was basically every stereotype of a "wanna be game developer with SERIOUS Aspergers" His disability was just that severe. Now you may feel a kinship with him because of that disability, but don't. Really...don't. He's no role model for you, and you should go out of your way to be NOTHING like him in any way.
Tha
Policy changed when a challenger approached (Score:2)
Before OUYA gained momentum on Kickstarter
BEFORE Ouya shipped
I was referring to the months between the Kickstarter campaign and the release. These were the months when the console makers were scrambling to react: "If we don't revise our contracts to attract smaller developers with promising prototypes, we'll lose business to OUYA as gamers grow tired of the AAA sameness trend."
Now you may feel a kinship with him because of that disability, but don't. [His behavior is] NOT the sort of thing done by an adult with a job who wants to be taken seriously.
Agreed. I understand that Mr. Pelloni is a counterexample in many ways, and I've tried to learn from his mistakes. But his was the highest profile rejection, the one that may have planted the s
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Niche market, yes, but it seems like one of Ouya's (the company's) biggest problems was that they thought that they could appeal to "gamers."
To me the biggest problem was that it didn't work worth a shit. They promised us stable XBMC at launch for example, and the truth was very very far away from that. The 3rd party controller support was actually crap, just flaky for days. Their controller was also crap through a couple of revisions. They identified keyboards as controllers and the keyboard would become controller #1, etc etc. Did they ever fix any of this stuff? I don't know, I took mine back. Oh yeah, here's what reeeeeally pissed me off: th
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The Ouya didn't even appeal to most gamers. It was junk hardware with like 99% junk games.
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Ouya has loads of competition now from ARM "sticks" and media adapters like the Fire, Roku or Cu Box. And each year brings more capable hardware while Ouja stays the same. The new raspberry pi 2 or Amazon Fire are arguably superior in all ways. Certainly both those alternatives make excellent XBMC/Kodi boxes.
And competition has also come from tablets in terms of casual gaming. Tablets benefit from huge economies of scale and large online market ecosystems. Ouja was always going to be a niche market appealing to techies and gamers.
I have a Fire TV (the fat one, not the stick) with Kodi on it, and it is not that "excellent". If you don't exit Kodi properly (by just pushing the "home" button on the remote, for example), then Amazon videos won't play. Various other minor, but irritating bugs make me wonder if I should have just gotten a cheap Chinese android stick or android box instead. I got a Maige TV HD3 recently, which is OUTSTANDING albeit not perfectly legal, so I will probably be dumping Kodi and all my home server content in
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It gets good reviews on the Kodi forums. It's Kodi, Netlfix and Amazon video in one small box. The CPU is powerful so theoretically a decent gaming platform though I can't speak to that. I went rpi-2 for Kodi so no Netflix but fortunately my TV and/or tablets do.
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I have never seen advertising for OUYA and it is not available at any local retailers although they list target all you can purchase is the game card. I would say if you want to sell a low end gaming console in the US it needs to be in every best buy, walmart, target, etc... Roku on the other hand is everywhere although it's sold as a media device not a game console it does have a few ok retro games.
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I knew it wouldn't work just based on price. The price of the Ouya was too low for what they were promising. At the time it came up, it was the same price as many other Android sticks. But it also included the gamepad. Designing a good gamepad is difficult, and making a high quality one costs a lot of money. There's a reason everybody continues to buy 1st party controllers for $50+ when there are cheaper alternatives from 3rd parties. It's because the third party ones don't work as well, and don't last a
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What do you think about Razer Forge? It's $150 with a controller, which is smack in the middle pricewise. It only came out a month late, which is practically a record these days
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Never heard of it before now. But looking at the specs, it looks promising. I hope that we start to see more game consoles built around standard Android where games are available on Google Play or some other place where the games can work between systems. This will make the console market much more competitive, and we'll be more likely to see hardware upgrades more than once every 4-5 years like we do with Playstation, XBox and Wii. Basically bringing together the best of console and PC gaming. For $150-
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Given my experience with the Razer Onza (PC/XB360 controller), I'd be dubious. The build quality was godawful.
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Given my experience with the Razer Onza (PC/XB360 controller), I'd be dubious. The build quality was godawful.
That's useful information, and jibes with what I've heard in the past. In theory you're supposed to be able to use other controllers; I have a Dual Shock 3 already, if I can use that then I may have to get one. What would really rope me in would be if both that and the PS3 BD-Remote would work with it. I've flirted with using the DS3 with Android occasionally, which isn't very reliable.
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They did not keep their word on many levels also.. (Score:1)
I was an original backer, I did not mind the late shipping (however many people did) what bothered me more was that when I made a purchase on their store if the console lost the connection for even a second the content would not be available anymore! Which happened pretty often over Wi-Fi...
Also the controller was not very good at what it was doing.
Everything else had its merits, but I ended up selling the machine.
It would have worked if they had the right team (Score:1)
Good riddance to bad junk. (Score:1)
But this can't be!! All the fanbois were telling us back when this was first announced how it was scaring Sony and Microsoft and was going to destroy their console businesses.
it was the price (Score:1)
Without buttons (Score:2)
For example, the Avatar Sirius gaming tablet that I got cost $65 and it's amazing.
I looked at the product [amazon.com], and it doesn't appear to have any face buttons on it, unlike other Android tablets such as the Archos GamePad and various JXD gaming tablets. How do you do a reliable directional control and jump and fire controls for a game like Mega Man without buttons? I tried the on-screen controls of the free subset of Pixeline and the Jungle Treasure on my Nexus 7 (2012) tablet, and I kept missing jumps because my thumbs kept drifting from the area where the controls were. (The game worked onc
Failure before it started. (Score:2, Interesting)
They started to backpedal on promises before the end of the crowdfunding, it is overpriced for what it was, and they had severe quality issues. 4 controllers with very little use in 1 year... Xbox controllers abused to hell work fine 4 years later. Yeah, it's dead, nobody cares, they cant even sell them in the clearance bin at Target.
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Yeah, it's dead, nobody cares, they cant even sell them in the clearance bin at Target.
I'd pay as much as $30 for them, on the basis that I could surely get $10 for the controller and the remainder is worth at least $20 to me. Probably at most, too. But I could have fun hacking one up. At the original $100 it wasn't worth it.
Emulation (Score:2)
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This. RPI2 is a OUYA killer... huge installed base, same access to emulators, can use stock wireless console controllers like PS3 with a ~$5 bluetooth dongle.
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Thank heavens, (Score:2)
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Philistines. I have a Commodore 64.
Please, unless you have the SX64, you aren't taking it with you. My TRS-80 Model 4 Portable though, gives me gaming on the go.
Not surprising. (Score:2)
This is what happens when you take an operating system that is meant to be used with a touch screen, and try to shoehorn in traditional gaming support. You wind up with a mediocre product. Couple that with the fact that you wind up having to rebuy all the android games you have which would work with it and it's no surprise that people said "thanks, but no thanks". The nvidia shield was a better idea because it accommodates both spaces at the same time.
I'm just gonna leave this here... (Score:2)
60 BUCKS?!?!?! [youtube.com]
Would probably be overvaluing the company...
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man what a terrible, awful ad.
how does seeing a scuzbag loser in his underwear barf all over the floor to the point that he fills up his room, then pull his tongue out in the process pulling his spine out and ending up in a puddle of boneless flesh floating in the puke leave me with a good feeling about this product?
Madcatz M.O.J.O. (Score:2)
http://madcatz.com/mojo/ [madcatz.com]
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The Ouya actually got more press than the Mojo, and the Mojo cost twice as much. That's not a good combination.
I'd like to get one of those when they discontinue it, too, though. So I hope it fails completely, soon.
the problem (Score:2)
No chance without the Google Play Store (Score:2)
I could never understand why an Android gaming device would not have access to the Google Play store, so I always thought the Ouya was doomed. Average hardware and a poor controller obviously didn't help either, but why waste time and money creating your own vastly inferior game store?
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