The Legislative Fight Over Loot Boxes Expands To Washington State (arstechnica.com) 127
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The government backlash against video game loot boxes -- the randomized in-game item purchases that some observers and legislators consider a form of gambling -- moved from Hawaii to Washington state earlier this month. That's when a group of three Democratic state senators introduced a bill that would require the state gambling commission to examine loot boxes and determine "whether games and apps containing these mechanisms are considered gambling under Washington law." "What the bill says is, 'Industry, state: sit down to figure out the best way to regulate this,'" Orcas Island Senator and bill coauthor Kevin Ranker told the Tacoma News Tribune. "It is unacceptable to be targeting our children with predatory gambling masked in a game with dancing bunnies or something."
The bill text puts specific focus on the question of whether children who "may be more vulnerable to gambling addiction" should be allowed to access games with loot boxes, and on the question of "transparency" around "the odds of receiving each type of virtual item." The latter point took on additional salience last month as Apple required such odds to be posted alongside games with loot boxes. Actual government regulation of loot boxes in Washington is still a ways off, though. Ranker's bill needs to be approved by the full Washington state legislature (which is narrowly held by Democrats) and be signed by the governor before being referred to the gambling commission. At that point, the commission would have until December 1 to form its recommendations for any regulatory and enforcement system the state might set up.
The bill text puts specific focus on the question of whether children who "may be more vulnerable to gambling addiction" should be allowed to access games with loot boxes, and on the question of "transparency" around "the odds of receiving each type of virtual item." The latter point took on additional salience last month as Apple required such odds to be posted alongside games with loot boxes. Actual government regulation of loot boxes in Washington is still a ways off, though. Ranker's bill needs to be approved by the full Washington state legislature (which is narrowly held by Democrats) and be signed by the governor before being referred to the gambling commission. At that point, the commission would have until December 1 to form its recommendations for any regulatory and enforcement system the state might set up.
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Gambling favors the house....
Learn it and you wont lose a dime....
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You're wrong.
Life is random.
Gambling (as in organised gambling) is not really random. The house organises it in such a way to have an advantage.
In both cases you take risks and you could win, but life if randomly fair while gambling is deterministically unfair to the players.
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Sounds like the same value to me. You got a hundred-dollar sword for cheap, or you got a box full of valuable life lessons.
Re: Id say it depends on all what comes in the loo (Score:1)
Every lootbox contains an item worth zero dollars. Everything in a lootbox is developed at the same time as the game and already paid for. Otherwise the developers would have not had time for that.
They are all a scam.
The only way they aren't is if there is no buying the boxes and they are just awarded to players at specific points in the game.
The whole idea of random lottery style lootboxes was introduced by free to play games. The justification being the game is free, and stuff is continually being added.
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What do you call it when a loot box costs one loot box token, which in turn costs 100 gembux, which are available via in-game prizes at a rate of 1-10 per day or for cash at rates of 10 for $0.99, 250 for $9.99, 1,000 for $19.99, or 10,000 for $99.99 (Best Value!!!) and contains three random virtual items with no cash value, at least two of which also have no practical value in the game and one of which, once every 15-20 times, may be something of in-game utility that can't be sold or traded and will probab
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But what is 20$ out of the box in value? You can't trade these items away in most cases, so it's value is always only what the user is willing to pay for it.
But most importantly, these items in general do not affect your ability to play the game. If you get a lootbox with a nifty skin for your Overwatch character, or you get in game currency that allows you to buy that same skin, in both cases it doesn't affect the game at all; it just looks nice. I'd say people might have a point if the functionality of
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Only - The reason this is exploded is that these loot boxes no longer contain "only cosmetic" items, but stuff that gives you advances in the game. In short - it's a "pay to win" scheme. Mind you - That is for a game you already payed a full price for.
And even more - There are plans to tinker with the difficulty of the game to press you to buy those loot boxes. There is even an AI in development that analyses your behavior in the game, and will try every trick in the book (or better said - In their programm
Bobcat in a box (Score:5, Funny)
What about bobcats?
What about Chuck E. Cheese? (Score:3)
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Botulism roulette is not a fun game anyway.
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Those are games of skill, not chance.
The same could be said of poker.
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The same could be said of poker.
Poker is a game of chance in which skill in your betting strategy can affect the outcome,
BUT the cards you got are still random, so it's not a game of pure skill.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXBfwgwT1nQ
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Washington State already has laws banning games that have a "payout rate" such as Key Master or Stacker (where it will prevent you from winning unless a certain amount of money has gone through the machine).
the NJ roms are more skill then the non NJ ones (Score:2)
the NJ roms for the games that have them are more skill then the non NJ ones
stacker stop the light to win prize games are rigg (Score:2)
The stacker stop the light to win prize games are rigged to pay out %.
Giant Apple loop hole (Score:3)
The way Apple did it was to require games that sell loot boxes for money to post odds.
I've never seen a game do this. All games that I've seen sell in game currency and the loot boxes are purchased with that currency. IMHO, Apple introduced something to appear that they are doing something, while actually doing nothing.
And that makes sense. Apple gets 30% of all the sweet sweet revenue. So they want to appear to be doing something to calm enraged law makers, but actually do nothing to keep the money flowing.
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You go to Chuck-E-Cheese and you buy a game card with credits on it. You spend a couple of hours "gambling" for crappy in-restaurant tickets. You exchange these tickets for crappy toys. This has been going on for, what, 50 years? Why do we add "on the computer" and get upset?
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You go to Chuck-E-Cheese and you buy a game card with credits on it. You spend a couple of hours "gambling" for crappy in-restaurant tickets. You exchange these tickets for crappy toys. This has been going on for, what, 50 years? Why do we add "on the computer" and get upset?
There is no gamble. All machines that give tickets give them regardless of how you play.
The tickets can be purchased for 1 cent each.
As a parent I couldn't care less about the tickets, we are there to have some fun playing games.
But the kids like counting them up and trading them in for some candy or a trinket or something.
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All machines that give tickets give them regardless of how you play.
Is there any indication that these tablet games sell boxes with nothing in them?
The tickets can be purchased for 1 cent each.
The games are happy to sell you items directly rather than take your chance on the loot box.
As a parent I couldn't care less about the tickets, we are there to have some fun playing games.
You aren't a kid. They absolutely care about the tickets. As a parent.
But the kids like counting them up and trading them in for some candy or a trinket or something.
And the kids like buying mystery boxes. That's why we're here.
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It's not really my genre, because of the issues you describe. But of the few I have played, you could either "win" a sapphire crystal (or sword of conquest, or golden bubble, or whatever), or you could go buy it in the store for some ridiculous amount of money. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?
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Skiball is skill, not random chance.
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There is no gamble. All machines that give tickets give them regardless of how you play.
Exactly. And all loot boxes give you loot.
Most give mediocre stuff, but occasionally you get something cool. You are not required to purchase loot boxes. Some games give them randomly as prizes just for playing with the option to purchase more.
I don't see the big deal, but I'm not inclined to buy them either.
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No, the problem is the loot boxes require you to buy them to continue the game. That's why there's a big uproar - if you want to progress through the game, these purchases are no longer optional, but re
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That a booster pack is not worth zilch doesn't change that it's still not generally worth as much as much as you paid for the pack unless it contains a certain minimum number of cards that you actually need or want. The actual rarity of the cards within is irrelevant to this point, because the rarity of cards is determined by the producing company and is not always (or often even generally) a direct function of their usefulness. You could compare it to a slot machine where you put a quarter in, and you'
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I would think the absence of an ability to trade in tickets on anything of value would make it even less like gambling.
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I don't buy game stuff, but I believe Overwatch sells loot boxes directly. Battlefront 2 I think does the currency thing if I remember right. Rocket League sells keys that are required to open loot boxes, so kind of in between.
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Overwatch's implementation of loot boxes is slightly different from the standpoint of the rewards being merely cosmetic in nature. It doesn't unlock playability per se. My issue with loot boxes and other forms of progression reward systems is that game content (which you believe you paid for) is locked behind a door that can only be opened through either 1) a potentially obscene amount of time or 2) an indeterminable amount of cash. My first frustration with this was in Mass Effect 3, where individual chara
I feel I'm late to the party but... (Score:5, Interesting)
How are loot boxes different than collectible card game sets or grab-bag sales at school fundraisers?
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I don't think they are any different from CCG booster packs. You pay $X for a pack, and the only way you'll generally get your money's worth if is the pack has some cards that that you really want or could use. It's subjective, of course... measuring play value in terms of monetary worth, but IME, far more often than not, it's a net loss... and about on par with your odds at a casino.
Grab bag sales at fundraisers are further different because you are donating money to the fundraiser in the first place
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Loot boxes just generate a bunch of icons which always take up the same amount of space. The only indicator that maybe you've bought too many is a little number in the corner of the icon.
Remember, the problem with gambling isn't the act of gambling itself
Grab bag sales are small enough that nobody (Score:2)
There's also finite limits to the amount of feedback you can give with a card game. You open the pack and that's that. With a video game, especially an online one, there's all sorts of nasty tricks that can be played. Call of Duty for example makes it a point to show
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How are loot boxes different than collectible card game sets or grab-bag sales at school fundraisers?
Digital vs physical. You're getting something that has value from a CCG or grab-bag. With a digital lootbox there's not intrinsic value beyond what's in the game, and in many cases they can't be sold/traded/etc. In many cases the odds for CCG's have to be displayed, not so for digital. I think China, Japan and S.Korea are the only countries that require the actual odds listed on the lootbox right now.
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How are loot boxes different than collectible card game sets or grab-bag sales at school fundraisers?
Digital vs physical. You're getting something that has value from a CCG or grab-bag.
Lot's of things are digital or abstract that have value. A physical MtG has almost no more intrinsic value beyond it's digital counterpart, besides the paper it is made of. I take it you don't own any Bitcoin either ;)
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I think putting limits on advertising CCGs to kids would also be a good idea. Grab-bags are different in no one is going to buy 100 of them to get a specific toy.
First they came... (Score:4, Insightful)
At first they came for the loot boxes, and I said nothing because I don't play that game.
Then they came for the Hatchibles, and I said nothing because I don't have kids.
Then they came for the Magic The Gathering booster packs and there was no one left to speak for me.
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With MTG, you know the odds of getting different types of cards. The packs aren't totally random where you could end up with all commons or something. Furthermore, the contents of the packs themselves hold actual value (you can resell them, and use them to play a game). Loot boxes not only have very obfuscated potential contents, and odds highly-skewed towards getting crap, but also have no secondary value in nearly all cases.
The biggest difference, IMO, is the marketing. MTG -- as a game -- does not re
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Agreed.
With CCGs, generally speaking, the designers are generally not purposefully giving you crap. Every rare was intended to be good, though it is impossible for every card to be good for every player.
Early MtG did not quite adhere to that principle, but the designers moved in that direction quickly, because pissing customers off was never part of the plan. Once it became clear that obfuscation for the sake of suspense would only annoy the most dedicated players, there was no point in hiding the odds.
T
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If you want to ban companies from marketing rainbow strobelight Skinner boxes to kids because they're harmful to the kids (and their parents' bank accounts), go for it. With my blessing! But calling in-game orbs and in-game dragon sweaters
Something better to do (Score:4)
For the love of god, don't these idiots have something more important to do? How much do we pay these idiots anyway?
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For the love of god, don't these idiots have something more important to do? How much do we pay these idiots anyway?
We pay them with votes, but it's a gamble whether our vote gets the legislation we want, so we have to vote for them again and hope for the best.
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For the love of god, don't these idiots have something more important to do? How much do we pay these idiots anyway?
Like what? I mean it's not like Trump is passing any useful legislation in his presidency.
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Tax reform. That is turning out to be fairly useful. Lets look and see what else has been passed by Trump. How about a link from NPR?
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/27... [npr.org]
I just ticked off a few random ones there. So I would say that Trump in passing lots of useful legisla
no more for me (Score:2)
What exactly is the problem we are trying to solve (Score:4, Insightful)
And really, is the person who needs the drop rate on Malibu Darth Vader honestly going to; a) be surprised that it is abysmally small b) do anything differently with that information?
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Why is this a problem that needs legislation to solve?
This isn't about solving anything, this is retribution for intentionally making games shittier. They deserve all the government there to help them they are going to get.
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The problem to be solved is adults making a business model out of children gambling.
Heaving crap at them the 99% of the time they don't win the big prize doesn't make it not gambling any more than winning a dollar or another ticket does in a scratch off.
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If loot boxes have really desirable items 100% of the time, it wouldn't be gambling, and wouldn't be as addictive (see: variable reinforcement schedule).
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You know what's a great way to stop shitty games from being made? Stop fucking buying them.
Good in principle, but it requires everyone to adhere to this principle. For this to happen, marketing will have to be 0% effective. This won't happen.
"Regulate" means "Tax" (Score:2)
well apple needs to have no password or card free (Score:2)
well apple needs to be like google no password or card needed for free apps.
Better plan (Score:2)
The bill isn't going to go anywhere (Score:2)
I will defer! (Score:2)
Way to go, you ballless wonders! Instead of doing your job -- passing a law to make it illegal, you punt to someone else. Why are you there again?
Oh right. So you can hide and say "I didn't do it!" if it blows up in your face.
I guess you will defer your motion to allow a commission to explore the validity of your accusations, Senator.
LOOTERY vs. LOTTERY? (Score:3)
If the legislature confirms selling loot boxes is not gambling, I am starting a Lootery which will work just a lottery, but instead of lottery tickets you buy a virtual loot box. You are guaranteed to win a minimum of $0.01 per loot box which costs $1. 1 in 100M will win $1M dollars. 1 in 10 will win $2, and a bunch of odds and winning between those. I'll adjust the odds to compete and be better than the Washington State Lottery. The best news, it won't be gambling so won't be taxed and regulated as such!
Good Riddance (Score:3)
Instead of these random boxes, do one of two things.
1) Allow all to have the same items (remember the good old days when this was the case?).
2) Allow the purchase of specific items for a set price instead of the gamble method of hoping to hit it big.
I prefer option 1. Devs can go back to the ways of making a game which is balanced with all of the items in the game being available to everyone from the start. This can be furthered through level based weapons where one gains access to these upgrades over time as your characters level up. This option does open itself up to abuses by the game company by making progress painfully slow with the option to pay to advance quicker but then this devolves to become option 2 at this point so I don't consider the slow progression with pay to speed up as option 1.
I don't like Option 2 as it closes out the game to those who can't afford to pour a lot of money into the game just to get access to items which the other richer players can. Ideally, charge the full price for the game and be done. If they want to charge less, then charge less and give an option for a one-time purchase to get the rest of the content (kind of like how Doom was initially distributed)
I've avoided many, many games which I would absolutely love to play because of the ongoing gouging of players. It sucks (because there are some really amazing looking games out there) but I'm not pouring an endless stream of money into a game just to be able to enjoy it / enjoy it at a reasonable pace.
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Extra Credits (a Youtube channel producing videos about game development and design) put out a fantastic video about this a few days ago. Games Should Not Cost $60 Anymore [youtube.com]
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Their thesis is that $60 is an unsustainably low price for producing a modern AAA game. Just considering inflation they should cost at least 25% more (~$75). Market studies indicate that consumers wouldn't accept that. Smartphone apps and Steam have already conditioned us to expect much cheaper games. That's led publishers to trying t
Re:Wow! Just Wow! (Score:4, Insightful)
whataboutism
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That's not whataboutism, he's complaining about priorities.
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I see nothing wrong with requiring companies to reveal what your actual chances are of getting certain items before you burn your real dollars "gambling" on their loot boxes.
I also see nothing wrong with having a warning about these systems so parents can make informed decisions about whether or not to let their kids play these games.
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How does it feel to be a corporate whore?
People dying also increases profits, that is fine under your logic. Teaching kids to gamble is definitely in the realm of government business since it has terrible effects on the population as a whole down the road.
The government is not here, or at least not supposed to be here to enforce company policy.
Fascist numbnuts.