Swiss Soccer Fans Protest Esports by Throwing Tennis Balls and Game Controllers On the Field (variety.com) 227
Soccer fans in Switzerland protested against increased investment in esports by throwing tennis balls and game consoles on the field during a Swiss Super League match. From a report: The fans reportedly threw tennis balls and game controllers onto the field, forcing the referee to stop the game between Young Boys and FC Basel for two minutes while everything was cleared away. The Young Boys protesters then held up a giant banner with a pause button symbol, while Basel fans also raised their own sign supporting the protest. One of the banners read "Scheiss esports," which roughly translates to "esports are s---." European soccer clubs are increasingly getting involved in esports leagues. While Young Boys doesn't have any skin in professional gaming yet, Basel has its own "FIFA" team.
The funniest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Is that people who play video games got the name "esports" to stick.
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Well, when bridge, chess, and Go [independent.co.uk] are sports ... what did you expect?
Recognized by the IOC ... and apparently they have to do drug testing:
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So, in the sense that bridge is now recognised as a "mind sport", how is competitive video gaming any different?
Nobody owns exclusive rights in bridge, chess, or go.
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Then please do tell us what "sport" is? I could see it being defined as "playing a competitive game at a high level" and have a hard time seeing too many "real sports" not being included by that definition. In fact, I have a hard time thinking up of a definition that would include all "real sports" but wouldn't include e-sports.
Originally, sport was peacetime games that prepared young men for war: running, hurdling, javelin, shot-put, etc. Heck, the predecessor to modern kickball games with formal rules was a competition between neighboring villages to move a ball to the front steps of the other village's church, with no rules. The violence got so bad that it was eventually banned by both Church and secular authorities. Imagine competitive soccer riots.
In some weird sense, war is changing to look more like video games, and some
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Golf, etc are activities rather than sports. I'm with you on your definition.
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Golf, etc are activities rather than sports. I'm with you on your definition.
My rule of thumb is if you can do the activity while smoking and/or drinking beer it's not a "sport."
ergo, Golf, bowling, fishing, darts - Not sports.
My personal jury is still out on curling, but that's probably just my Canadian bias leaking through.
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Re: The funniest thing (Score:2)
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No, the funniest thing is that anyone ever managed to turn playing silly games of any kind into a profession.
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People like to watch challenging things done well. Sounds reasonable to me.
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Your reason is apparently not welcome on a lot of people's lawns. Meh fuck em anyways
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That still doesn't explain why people watch others play video games. I can understand watching others screw up a lot for the humor effect, but Twitch does not have much in the "challenging things done well" category.
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If you think the things professional gamers do are not challenging or that they don't do them well, then you are probably just not familiar with what they do. I assure you, an average level enthusiastic gamer would get destroyed by a professional.
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People like to watch challenging things done well.
Absolutely true - But if you like watching poker on TV, or good variety shows, you're not watching "sports."
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Maybe, just maybe, there is a reason it is called e(lectronic)Sports
Do you bitch about email not being real mail?
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No, the funniest thing is that anyone ever managed to turn playing silly games of any kind into a profession.
Like football. Or golf. Or tennis. Or baseball. Or basketball. Or simply running around in circles on a field....
Whether you like it or not, a sport is any trivial and/or pointless pastime that is played seriously... Like football. Or golf. Or tennis. Or baseball. Or basketball. Or simply running around in circles on a field....
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We've been over this. It's not a profession unless it's regulated by the government (or some secret society like the free masons, I guess) to enforce membership requirements, competency, etc.
Lawyers, doctors, plumbers, electricians, etc. are all professionals.
"Esports" players, software engineers, etc. are not professionals.
Hookers in an area that allows and regulates it are professionals. Hookers in an area that does not allow for it, or that does not regulate it, are not.
Being a professional means you h
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I have the correct definition. Go look up the meaning of "profess", go look up the history of what were considered to be "professions".
The modern "dictionary" literally defines literally as figuratively.
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b : a principal calling, vocation, or employment
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Soccer fans ruin soccer match (Score:5, Funny)
That'll show them nerds
Okay, but why? (Score:4, Interesting)
Poorly informed outrage mob (Score:5, Interesting)
... is poorly informed outrage mob.
This almost sounds like a stunt 4chan would pull. Not the protest itself, but getting people to do it.
Because esports are proprietary (Score:5, Insightful)
Why exactly is an "increased investment in esports" a bad thing for these teams?
Under current law, a video game's publisher has the exclusive right to play the game in public. This means it can end a league's license to stream the league's matches at any time for any reason or no reason.[1] It can also cause an esport to cease to exist by turning off a game's online multiplayer matchmaking server and threatening suit against third-party matchmaking servers.[2] By contrast, the governing body of a ball sport lacks power to shut down a league.
[1] "Why Nintendo can legally shut down any Smash Bros. tournament it wants" by Kyle Orland [arstechnica.com]
[2] "EA shuts down fan-run servers for older Battlefield games" by Kyle Orland [arstechnica.com]
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The article really doesn't get into what sort of investment the clubs are making, other than the fact that FC Basel has a "FIFA team"... Whatever that entails.
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I have to imagine that the clubs have some sort of agreement with the video game publishers.
A publisher still has the right to decline to make such an agreement with a given club, even if it has an agreement with a different club. This lets the publisher play favorites. It also, more likely than not, has the right to terminate an existing agreement with any club.
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If they need a model to base themselves off of, they simply need to look at Riot Games.
This isn't new. Yes e-Sports are sports, just as much as any physical sport may be. And from the looks of it they are here to stay.
That said some games don't deserve the title. Software versions of physical games should not replace the latter. e.g. FIFA console games replacing real football is just fucking stupid.
The energy that comes from the live audience is just as powerful as any real sport. I'm not sure what people a
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That said some games don't deserve the title. Software versions of physical games should not replace the latter. e.g. FIFA console games replacing real football is just fucking stupid.
Why? Abolishing all the "classic" sports would go a long way towards making a better society.
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Because part of what makes all these sports so great to begin with is the physical finesse some of the top players achieve and get results from.
Seeing someone do all these amazing feats with a controller just doesn't rub people the same way.
5 people fighting 5 other people to the death with magic and dragons and.. uhh.. well you get it; isn't physically possible (VR will make this concept explode when it's capable of doing so). And there is HUGE demand to watch this, as is shown today with games like League
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(it's different for real sports like track running or swimming - the real athletes are amazing, but the competitions are not at all spectacular)
E-sports also allow much greater participation - I physically can not play a full game of handegg, but I
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1) Huge stadiums create negative externalities and invite corruption. E-sports don't really need stadiums, there's not much difference between watching games in-person or at home.
2) Popular classic sports have problems with doping and brain damage.
3) E-sports allow for much greater participation. I just need to login into a game and play the same game that professional players do.
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That's a great theory, a thought experiment for the ages. But do you honestly think enough people give a damn about a thought experiment that actually hasn't negatively impacted any e-sport to date, much less get worked up enough to cause a flash mob to build?
Nintendo has shut down Smash Bros. tournaments (Score:2)
[Copyright] actually hasn't negatively impacted any e-sport to date
From "No streaming Brawl for MLG?" (2010) [gamespot.com]: "However, I'm sorry to say that we will not be able to have a live stream for Smash in Orlando this weekend. In order to stream something like this, we have to secure live streaming rights from the game's publisher. And despite our best efforts, we have not been able to get permission from Nintendo thus far. We kept the conversation going all the way down to the wire, in hopes that we'd get an 11th hour approval and could still stream the event, but unfortunately i
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It wasn't streamed in the first place. Not being able to expand is a far sight from your comparison to "shutting down a league" and to be honest your issue with streaming rights is absolutely par for the course for ALL sports.
There's endless stories about streaming rights being given to one group who end up not providing the content in favour of something else. Those sports none the less continue, as did the tournaments in your examples.
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Not being able to expand is a far sight from your comparison to "shutting down a league"
Nintendo can and has shut down public matches even in person, as even a live performance is still performing the game publicly if a substantial number of people are gathered to see it. From the second link about a denial of rights to hold a tournament: "It is widely speculated that the problem lies entirely in Nintendo’s hands and that MLG actively wanted Brawl to be present at Anaheim, even offering to run the tournament entirely off-stream to avoid any licensing issues."
and to be honest your issue with streaming rights is absolutely par for the course for ALL sports.
For ball sports, the league c
Under what law? (Score:4, Interesting)
They can't stop someone from playing the game... but they sure as hell can stop anyone playing under whatever they are governing.
Once FIFA expels a league, that league can no longer claim affiliation with FIFA. But so long as that league doesn't claim such affiliation, what right under the law of any developed country does FIFA have to keep that league from playing matches by the same rules, using a pitch and ball with the same specifications as those used by FIFA members?
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You can set up your own private server
Try this with esports, and you will be sued and lose. Try this with ball sports, and there are no grounds for such a suit.
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Now, I just need a government grant to go out and test my hypothesis...
Re: Okay, but why? (Score:2)
I suspect that if these fans werenâ(TM)t upset about this it would just be something else instead.
Local sources (Score:5, Informative)
Source A, local free small news paper "20min" [20min.ch]
Source B, the national ISP and IPTV service provider Bluewin [bluewin.ch]
Sorry, source in German only (well at least it's in Schriftdütsch and not in dialect).
Source A has a side bar with an interview of one of the potester. His arguments, he's feeling danger, because :
- Mixing E-Sport could divert kids attention away from "real" (his words) sport and keep them glued to the screen.
- He's actually not afraid of money being invested into e-Sport instead of soccer teams (i.e.: not afraid of money lacking). But he'll find it problematic once the league's clubs start to assemble E-Sport teams. "What could this lead to ?"
- He's not buying the argument that e-Sport could attract more fans. His opinion is that a video game is a wrong reason to become a fan. He's actually against bringing even more people into stadiums (?!). Specially given that Bern's team is already successful for the last 3-4 years. He's not interested in pseudo-"fans" who are just following some fad.
On their side, the proponent of the e-Sport investment actually want to fight the "fat nerd in the sofa" cliché. Actually the point is to have the e-Sport team have some fitness training and balance diets, some are actual soccer players, etc. They want to cultivate healthy gamers.
At the end of the day, they see eSport as a marketing tool, able to reach out and attract more of the younger generation..
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At the end of the day, they see eSport as a marketing tool, able to reach out and attract more of the younger generation..
Should clarify that this is about trying to capture money from the younger generation that they were losing. They don't necessarily expect to convert esports fans into football fans. They just want esports fans to be wearing jerseys with their logos plastered all over them, even if the name on the back is the handle of some kid who plays his sport sitting in a chair.
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I've heard people slander Switzerland in many ways. Calling it "socialist" is new, though.
Considering that it's one of the richest countries on the planet despite having pretty much ZERO resources, you might want to rethink that claim. Else you're basically saying socialism can make you rich even if you're not sitting on a sea of oil.
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There are nuts who consider any tax socialist despite the concept of taxes being at least 5 millennia old.
What the article leaves out (Score:3, Informative)
Is that the fans are under the (possibly true) impression that the league is making participation in esports a licensing requirement for next season.
My issue with e-sports (Score:2, Interesting)
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Weird definition of sports. try playing Polo for free
Anyone can make a bike for cycle polo (Score:3)
Anyone has the right to manufacture a bicycle for use with cycle polo [wikipedia.org]. Anyone has the right to breed ponies for use with traditional polo. And anyone has the right to think up new polo variants using newly developed personal vehicles.
In esports, by contrast, a game publisher's copyright precludes this sort of incremental experimentation.
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Code your own conforming game? Get sued. (Score:3)
And anyone can code their own video game if they really want to.
One who codes his own video game that conforms to a particular esport's regulations would be sued and lose. Tetris v. Xio (2012) [slashdot.org] was the particular case that woke me up to this.
TV money (Score:2)
Anyone has the right to manufacture a bicycle for use with cycle polo [wikipedia.org]. Anyone has the right to breed ponies for use with traditional polo. And anyone has the right to think up new polo variants using newly developed personal vehicles.
...but none of them will end-up on prime time TV. You'll only find such sport in friend's backyards.
Only league's clubs actually get attention and money poured into them. You need already a commercial organisation to reap the benefits and play the big money/corruption game.
Game companies are basically the same : commercial entity with vested financial interests.
The closest to "playing soccer with a cheap sphere, or inventing my own e-scooter Polo variant" in the e-Sport world would be a small indie team wri
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Only league's clubs actually get attention and money poured into them.
Agreed. But in the case of ball sports, there's no law that prevents a league from forming around a variant. This led, for example, to Arena Football League and other indoor gridiron leagues. USFL and XFL also tweaked the rules of gridiron football a bit compared to the existing NCAA and NFL.
Allowed too (Score:2)
But in the case of ball sports, there's no law that prevents a league from forming around a variant.
And there's no legal limitation preventing you from starting your own tournament of any opensource GPL'ed game of your choice neither.
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And there's no legal limitation preventing you from starting your own tournament of any opensource GPL'ed game of your choice neither.
Then why do esport leagues choose to play proprietary games over GPL games despite the greater uncertainty in keeping a license?
Money (Score:2)
Then why do esport leagues choose to play proprietary games over GPL games despite the greater uncertainty in keeping a license?
Just think who has more money to invest into helping you organize your league:
- A giant commercial company like Activision Blizzard ?
- A guy who writes fun games on his spare time on week-ends ?
And whereas the single dev will be just happy if their game gets selected for a competition, a big company has a strong monetary incentive : they can use it as a marketing tool to make the game more popular and make more potential buyers aware of it existence leading to more potential sales and thus p
Provided the game is still being sold (Score:2)
a big company has a strong monetary incentive : they can use it as a marketing tool to make the game more popular and make more potential buyers aware of it existence
Until said big company decides to withdraw the game from the marketplace. Then the league has to quickly disband or risk a copyright infringement suit.
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What's the problem? Sure, you need to first have a horse, a field, and some equipment, but when you have those the game itself is free.
Try running Linux for free - you still need to already have a computer.
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Perhaps the real difference you're getting at is this: Several manufacturers make computers for use with X11/Linux. You can run it on a computer from Dell, System76, or any of several other brands. Likewise, several manufacturers make tennis balls, rackets, and nets, and they don't need permission from The Tennis Company. By contrast, only one publisher is allowed to distribute necessary software for a particular esport, unless it's either A. free software (such as SuperTuxKart) or B. a computer adaptation
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Weird definition indeed, since when can Polo be considered a sport? Next would be minigolf, I guess?
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Polo, cycle polo, and scooter polo [wikipedia.org] are sports to the same extent as field hockey, and miniature golf is a sport to the same extent as golf.
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Sports were originally training for war : running, hurdling, javelin, shot-put. Polo definitely counts.
Perhaps you're looking for a different word "athleticism" - but polo counts there too. (Scooter polo not so much, by either measure.)
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A kid can always learn some FPS skills on shareware Wolfenstein 3D or OpenArena.
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to play professionally, you will have to invest in much more expensive regulation gear.
But in ball sports, there's no law prohibiting companies from manufacturing regulation gear. There's no Tennis Company that can sue you and win just for making and selling a tennis racket that conforms to the spec.
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I'll agree with the games, but the operating system is similar to having a large enough patch of grass on which to play soccer. Somebody's gotta pay for that.
For the games, well, there ARE free alternatives which will teach you as much about the general genre as kicking a ball around with your friends teaches you about professional soccer. Team Fortress 2 is a 'substitute' for Counterstrike and Overwatch, for example.
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the operating system is similar to having a large enough patch of grass on which to play soccer. Somebody's gotta pay for that.
But if a city wants to put up a regulation size football pitch in a public park, FIFA has neither the right to refuse permission nor the right to a royalty.
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the operating system is similar to having a large enough patch of grass on which to play soccer. Somebody's gotta pay for that.
But if a city wants to put up a regulation size football pitch in a public park, FIFA has neither the right to refuse permission nor the right to a royalty.
So why isn't my tax money going to metro OS?!
Is rugby a substitute for gridiron? (Score:2)
Team Fortress 2 is a 'substitute' for Counterstrike and Overwatch, for example.
That'd be like saying rugby is a substitute for gridiron (American or Canadian) football. I don't feel soccer, rugby, gridiron, Australian rules, or Gaelic football are substitutes for one another in the same way that American and Canadian football are substitutes for each other.
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In the case of a baseball match, the league typically owns copyright in the TV coverage. Viewers of MLB matches on television, for example, see a notice to the effect "This presentation may not be rebroadcast without the consent of Major League Baseball." There's no law that can be used against MLB to keep MLB from selling rights to broadcast its clubs' matches.
An esport match differs in that there's a tier of ownership higher than the league, namely the game's publisher. A publisher can use copyright in it
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You can play soccer with any vague spheroid, at least when you're a beginner. Even at the highest levels, there are multiple vendors for the necessary equipment. In essence, traditional sports are open source. I will accept e-sports as sports when the games and the requisite operating systems are Free software.
I'm failing to see the problem: https://sourceforge.net/projec... [sourceforge.net]
Open source game, works on open source language Linux and there are multiple brands of computer that run Linux. If the game isn't good enough for you, why don't you just go fix it like you would any other sport...?
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Then why do leagues end up selling their souls to publishers by choosing Overwatch or some other proprietary game instead of YSoccer?
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Then why do leagues end up selling their souls to publishers by choosing Overwatch or some other proprietary game instead of YSoccer?
Because despite the comments about wanting sports to be free, if it isn't in your back yard, it is probably all about money.
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if it isn't in your back yard, it is probably all about money.
It's practical for a league to make money by playing a free* ball sport. How is it impractical for a league to make money by playing a free esport?
* In the sense that players and equipment manufacturers enjoy the four freedoms listed by FSF [gnu.org] with respect to the sport's rules.
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Anyone can make a MOBA or FPS game (like League of Legends or Counter-Strike, respectively) and define an open standard for game mechanics and balancing.
If the game runs on a Linux box then all your criteria are met.
We used to play hockey on frozen ponds and never really thought it'd become as big as it is today (way too big in my opinion, like any big sport today).
This is how most e-Sports started off. The games weren't made with the intention of being big name sports, but their popularity and the communit
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What a weird definition. There are many sports with equipment and/or playing areas far more prohibitive than a video game. The AC mentioned polo, but also ice hockey, [American] football, bowling, golf, racketball, curling, ski jumping, water-skiing, bobsled, luge, horse jumping, chariot racing, jai alai...and many more.
If your definition of "open" or "free" source is rooted in libertarian concepts of rights to the equipment/fields/etc, then, yes, anyone with enough money can self-fund their restriction-fre
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Try playing ice hockey sometime, its fucking expensive if you are a kid from a poor family. In areas where hockey is not very popular, you end up with it being more of a "rich kid sport".
Po-duh (Score:2)
ignore the Luddites proceed apace with conversion of humanity into pod-based virtual reality dwellers
Sports vs. eSports (Score:3)
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If fortnight, DOTA, or LoL are sports, then so are chess and go.
Aren't games like chess already sports?
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Target shooting is already an Olympic event, and that's as much a sport as video games. https://www.olympic.org/shooti... [olympic.org]
Ever shot a firearm repeatedly? Sure, modern Olympic style shooting events use .22 that have no recoil and the firearms are built using extremely lightweight materials, but it still gets heavy after a while, and except for the prone position all Olympic style shooting is unsupported. It takes fine muscle and breathing control to keep the firearms steady. Personally though, I think Olympic shooting events need to get away from the air rifles and small calibers. I'd rather see 3 gun shooting or long-range
Promoting violence? (Score:2)
I do agree with the Olympic committee that video games that promote violence (while I love them) don't really belong under the "eSports" moniker.
What do you mean "promote violence" ?
You mean encourage people to become actually violent and start punching people in real life ? That discredited trope has been beaten to death.
Or do you mean that "fighting" is the subject of sizeable chunk of games ?
Which is ridiculous given that chess, usually considered the noblest among the mind sports (officially recognized as such by IOC) has "war" as its subject.
And that lots of sports that simulate fighting (e.g.: Boxing, fencing, etc.) are official sports.
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The World Cyber Games used to be a thing. Not sure if it still is or if an equivalent has surfaced; but they were essentially the Olympics of gaming and pulled in some pretty hefty crowds.
The Olympic committee is being hypocritical by saying they don't belong in "eSports" if they promote violence. All forms of martial arts and wrestling practiced at the Olympics promote physical violence, regardless of if they are actually for self-defense at their core. Kids see that stuff and just want to go roundhouse ki
I don't get it (Score:2)
There's not enough explanation here for me to understand what is going on. It sounds like a bunch of old guys are upset that kids are playing video games, so to protest they have disrupted a spectator sport? Except one of the protest groups is named the "young" boys, so I dunno?
Maybe explain more specifically what esports is? Is it video game versions of sports? And how does it affect these protestors - or does it actually affect these protestors? What are they upset about? What change do they desire?
Explain the logic, please (Score:4, Insightful)
You want people to understand what "Esports ist Scheisse" means but you don't dare spell it out? Like, whu..?
I live among a horde of weak, pathetic fools...
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Apparently only English vulgarity is considered.. vulgar? Ugh...
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Consoles versus Controllers (Score:2)
throwing tennis balls and game consoles on the field
I can see someone throwing out a $20 controller. A $400 console, never!
Soccer? (Score:2)
Unless your legs don't work or you live somewhere very isolated, just go play actual soccer or basketball.
Oh the Irony... (Score:2)
Of esports being derided by the home of DREAMHACK a Swedish org that hosts insanely large LAN Parties & E-sports events...
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oh wait, I can't read... damn publick skewl. Switzerland != Sweden
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This is the key problem here. Every game manufacturer is out to create the next e-sport thing. It's an even worse scourge than MMOs were. At least the MMO hype has finally died down when studios noticed it takes literally dozens of millions of dollars to get one off the ground and the chances for a sensible ROI are slim to zero. So they looked for a new get-rich-quick scheme in games and they found it in e-sports.
What blows especially about it is that everyone and their dog now tries to jump onto this train
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E-sports are bottom-of-the-barrel bullshit and take up valuable resources which could be spent making non-shit games.
Single-player games will certainly make a comeback after the success of God of War. Other than the recent death of single player titles, I don't understand your complaint. Games that actually become esports are those with a high skill ceiling, and that stay fun to play long enough for that to matter, i.e., good games.
There is something particularly sad about FIFA as an "esport", though, since its a game about sports instead of a game that makes a good esport.
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Nah, the only thing that's more boring than soccer is baseball. While I can somewhat see the appeal of playing it, it sure as fuck is no spectator sport.
Re:Sounds very European... (Score:4, Funny)
Baseball is too subtle and sophisticated for the average European, and no one starts a riot if they lose, so, to them, where's the appeal?
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Exactly, like I said, it's boring!
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Right, no one even gets stabbed or trampled, and people try to cover up injuries - not claim fake ones. Where's the appeal?
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Nah, the only thing that's more boring than soccer is baseball. While I can somewhat see the appeal of playing it, it sure as fuck is no spectator sport.
It's a great spectator sport, because it's a social sport. You can interact with other spectators, have conversations with them, and not really miss any of the game. And the noise level is very manageable as well. Although, to be honest I am not a big fan of the heavy analytics push into baseball right now. Running through 4-5 pitchers a game, heavy shifting, shooting for home runs (and the corollary, strikeouts) over small ball and base running makes the game more boring. Give me a sharply hit single,