The FTC Says It Will Investigate Loot Boxes (kotaku.com) 153
The Federal Trade Commission this week agreed to investigate video game loot boxes, accepting an official request by Senator Maggie Hassan. In a Congressional oversight committee hearing yesterday, FTC chairman Joe Simons affirmed Sen. Hassan's request that loot boxes be investigated. From a report: During her turn to ask questions at the hearing, Hassan cited a recent report by Great Britain's Gambling Commission that found 31% of children in the country had at one point or another paid money to open a loot box, a well as moves by Belgium (which prompted Square Enix to pull three mobile games from the country), Japan, and other countries to limit how loot boxes can be used in games. "Given the seriousness of this issue, I think it is in fact time for the FTC to investigate these mechanisms to ensure that children are being adequately protected and to educate parents about potential addiction or other negative impacts of these games," Hassan said. "Would you commit to undertaking this project and keeping this committee informed about it?" In response, Simons said "yes," but declined to go into any more detail about the FTC's current position on loot boxes and whether they constitute a form of gambling. Despite vocal criticism from Hassan and a few others on the topic, regulators have not been jumping to get involved in the debate.
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"I don't like her and my friends don't like her, so nobody in the state likes her. Never mind that they voted her into office."
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And then turned right around and voted her into another equally presitgious office which she still holds.
Re:Apologies from NH (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it's gambling which is illegal for minors and possibly w/ interstate issues also. Just because you don't understand the law or why things happen doesn't mean it's without reason.
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You're being stupid, that's ok, but loot can be sold for money. Which, in your case, all goes to cocaine I guess? Enjoy your Libertarianism, not my problem.
Gambling is taxed/regulated differently, interstate is taxed differently, etc. There are issues there whether your sniffy/crybaby ass knows about them or not.
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There's nothing unique about loot boxes when it comes to the topic of tax evasion. Loot boxes can be sold for real money in some games, and some people may use that mechanism for tax evasion, but that's equally as true of any other virtual item that can be sold for real money in a game, whether it's a weapon, a skin, a piece of gold, or whatever else.
There may be something worth investigating there, but that's a separate concern that has nothing to do with the unique characteristics of loot boxes.
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That makes no sense. You might as well have mentioned that some of these games may cause seizures in people with epilepsy. It's a concern, sure, but it's of no more relevance here—in a conversation about whether loot boxes should be regulated as gambling—than tax evasion is. It's just something unrelated that may be a problem with certain types of games.
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I’m picking up what you’re putting down, and I’ll admit it’s a different tack than what I thought you were initially taking, but it’s still a moot point. If it’s considered gambling, then it’s illegal in the US because those transactions are a form of interstate commerce. As such, none of the tax regulations particular to gambling come into play.
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you're so adorably delusional.
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No, it's gambling which is illegal for minors and possibly w/ interstate issues also. Just because you don't understand the law or why things happen doesn't mean it's without reason.
Parents are buying adult-rated games and handing them to their underage children, and you think the problem lies with the game creators? Last I checked, a 10-year old can't get a credit card; Adults are entering credit card information into games, and you want to blame the minor?
Let me know when parents start giving a shit about their kids again, and you fully understand "why things happen". Until then, this is a complete fucking waste of government resources.
Re:Apologies from NH (Score:4, Insightful)
I have no issue with my kid playing "adult" games. I wouldn't hand them my credit card though. I had a debit card at a young age and I'd bet most kids now do too. At least by middle school age anyway. You should be teaching your kids to make wise decisions rather than nannying them. Go look up Free Range Kids. If your kid can't walk to the store by age 7 or take a subway (if you live in a city) it's your own damm fault. Stop babying them.
Re: Apologies from NH (Score:2)
gamÂbling (gÄfmâblÄng)
n.
1. The activity of playing a game for stakes or betting on an uncertain outcome.
2. The business of operating facilities where such activities take place.
Is the outcome of a lootbox uncertain? As you said, it relies on RNG to determine the outcome. And not just even odds, the odds are weighted depending on the desirability of the object, just like many casino games.
Are you betting on a favorable outcome when you buy a lootbox? Absolutely, else why would you buy th
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The UK doesn't think so and the Chinese don't think so. I'm sure what other countries do matters. /s
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Casino tokens isn't money either...
Re:Apologies from NH (Score:5, Funny)
Maggie was an embarrassing governor (she opposed decrim many other sensible proposals) so we sent her away.
LOL. Yes, all of NH hated her so much they voted her out of the state senate and into the governor's office. They then hated her so much more that they voted her into US senate. At this rate, I can't wait to see the unbridled fury with which they cast their hate vote for her in the 2020 presidential primary.
Re:My nephew spent over $100 on Fortnite (Score:5, Insightful)
In app purchases in general should be well regulated.
1. They are often Pay to Cheat, especially for online games where people who pay more get a leg up on the stuff.
2. Kids are greedy little suckers. I know I use to be one. If my friend was playing a game and had that fancy skin that their parents shelled out $10.00 for and my parents said no. I would still really want it, or something of equal or greater cost. I didn't care about building character, they had it, and I wanted them the feel just as envious of me that I feel towards them.
3. Kids are class oriented. You have X and they have Y one has to be objectively better then the other. if you have the one that isn't better you are often feel like you have been put down. Sometimes they actually are, and other times they just feel that way. Emotionally it is the same.
4. Kids don't understand the value of money. You see Mom buying $250 worth of groceries, surely $10 or even $100 isn't that big of a deal. Not realizing such payments can add up quickly, and the money after bigger expenses is much lower.
Even with Good parenting you kid can fall under pressure to buy this type of stuff. If not to reap the reward of the purchase but avoid the shame of not having it.
There are also a lot of adults too have these problems, but they they legally can take the brunt of their mistakes, vs kids who share the consequences.
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In app purchases in general should be well regulated.
More than other purchases?
1. They are often Pay to Cheat, especially for online games where people who pay more get a leg up on the stuff.
Me: When I dont like something, I dont buy it.
You: When you dont like something, you try to prevent me from buying it.
2. Kids are greedy little suckers. I know I use to be one. If my friend was playing a game and had that fancy skin that their parents shelled out $10.00 for
You: When you dont like something, you try to prevent other parents from buying it.
3. Kids are class oriented. You have X and they have Y one has to be objectively better then the other. if you have the one that isn't better you are often feel like you have been put down.
But some people are changing that equation, making sure kids never learn this. Its been about 20 years now and the kids leaving college are infantile cunts
The root of the problem... (Score:2)
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Doesn't this go all the way back to baseball cards in bubblegum packs. How many kids use to 'gamble' on that by buying as many packs as they can afford, just to toss the gum and hope they get the baseball cards they really wanted?
How are loot boxes in video games any different? Other then being digital and involving a more complicated purchasing mechanism; rather than running down the dimestore and handing over your allowance.......
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The key difference is that kids had to go to the store and buy these things with their own money. Not a quick click of a button.
The old Arcades was pay to play. However the kids were limited on the number of quarters or tokens they had in their pocket.
If a kid lacked impulse control, they would quickly run out of coins and be left not being able to play anything else, and they would had learned that lesson. So the next time they went to the arcade they would play perhaps a game that gave them more value fo
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Since they are going to go after all these games that prey on people's poor impulse control, are they going to go after CCGs, like Magic the Gathering and Pokimon? You know, the original loot box games that have been played by children for the past twenty years?
I wish could mod up. Great point.
Kids still need to be given money or access to money [via credit card] by their parents to make these purchases. Regardless of whether the product is digital or physical the underlying process and values are identical.
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...A game needs all the items available without feeding it cash. We already did that when we bought it...
No, you did not. You are not paying attention. If you play Fortnite (as stated in the subject line ^^ ) you did not buy it because Fortnite is free to play, and generates revenue with in-game transactions, which may include randomized loot boxes, as discussed in the original article.
I completely understand why the business model of Free to Play with in-game transactions is disliked by many [myself included], but get over it. It's here. The market has spoken. Consumers spending their cash speaks many times
That is not a loot box though (Score:2)
That highlights how little effect investigating loot boxes will have - because fundamentally, the problem is more with games really having it down to a science as to how to tempt people to buy.
In Fortnight, there are no loot boxes - if you are spending money you know exactly what you get. And in theory, there is zero play advantage at all from any of the items you can buy, they are appearance only (there are a handful of examples of using things like dance moves to hide in ways you could not otherwise, but
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You're an idiot and you don't understand the issue. Buying a known isnt gambling. That's a purchase.
Since that is exactly what I posted, aren't you the idiot for not reading what I wrote? As the 8-ball says, all signs point to Yes...
Re:That is not a loot box though (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a father of two full-fledged teenagers who in the past have been known to buy each other loot boxes for their birthdays.
In Overwatch, my daughter's favorite, she loves to get the latest and greatest skins. But I've seen her with tears in her eyes because she had incredibly high hopes that the loot boxes her brother bought her would give her the skin she really wanted. This of course made my son feel like shit because he really wanted to make his sister happy and he had spent almost all his monthly disposable income on loot boxes for his sister and he failed to be her hero. He, who is freakishly talented with regards to killing in games but hates Overwatch then binge gamed with her to try and earn her more loot boxes before the special offer expired. They still came up short.
My friend's son who receives close to $400 a month in allowance (he plays his divorced mother and father against each other) spends most of it on loot boxes, then he sells whatever he gets. So far as I know, the most profitable month he's had in 3 years of doing this is to break even. And because of the nature of gambling, he and the other moron children who do the same thing sit around comparing who is going to get rich first from this. And then they complain about how their parents didn't by them the latest Jordan's yet.
Loot boxes legitimize gambling for teenagers. This means that they grow up thinking that the lottery is a good idea. They think that Vegas is a great place to go. Instead of cake sales at schools, they sell raffle tickets for the same cakes. I recently was asked to buy a raffle ticket for $2 for a chance to win a cake. I said "I'll give you $30 for the cake"... they actually turned me down because they would rather gamble that they could sell more than 15 tickets for the same cake their mother baked.
I refused to let my kids play Movie Star Planet when they were younger because in order to advance in the game, they had to use tokens to win more tokens at a casino. Of course, they had a few tokens as part of the membership to the game, but they would beg for us to buy them more tokens so they could gamble more. When I asked why... that was the end of that game. Same went for several others.
No... casinos and gambling are not welcome. And legitimizing gambling for children of any age is simply not welcome. My son is playing basketball now, I told him that I'll pull him from it as soon as he participates in gambling of any sort and that includes raffles. I said that if they don't want to throw a bake sale, then sell services like carrying bags at the grocery store to peoples cars. Or offer to pack peoples groceries for a tip. There's simply no reason to gamble or to promote that other people should gamble.
I disagree, loot boxes discourage real gambling (Score:1)
I see what you are saying -I've had friends to had to discipline kids around Fortnite usage.
However I disagree that this will condition kids into thinking the lottery is a good idea. Doesn't the constant disappointment of loot boxes act as an early lesson that gambling kind of sucks and you can find way cooler uses for money?
Also I would add that the lottery REALLY sucks compared to loot boxes, because at least with loot boxes you get something. With lottery tickets you mostly get a worthless ticket, so w
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Gambling is like a coin-operated vibrator whose speed randomizes every time you plunk in another coin. Even at the low speeds it's still pretty good. Sure it turns off for a few seconds sometimes, but if you wait through those you'll hit the cherries eventually.
Re:I disagree, loot boxes discourage real gambling (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't the constant disappointment of loot boxes act as an early lesson that gambling kind of sucks and you can find way cooler uses for money?
Yeah, I mean it's not like they have algorithms that have been developed to give you enough wins at exactly the right rate so that you stay hooked. After all, if they did, gambling would be a huge business!
Oh, wait.
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Doesn't the constant disappointment of loot boxes act as an early lesson that gambling kind of sucks and you can find way cooler uses for money?
If that were the case Casinos wouldn't exist.
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"Guess what, LIFE is a gamble, with every decision you make. Nothing is guaranteed, everything is chance. Driving to work every day is a gamble that the risk of the travel will be worth the pay off."
Sure, but do you expect that you will be killed by a raging driver on a regular basis because there is no law against rage driving or traffic regulation at all? Or do you actually believe that collective drivers in a free society will spontaneously organize themselves to some unwritten rule in the absence becaus
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And in theory, there is zero play advantage at all from any of the items you can buy, they are appearance only
I'll let the military know that camouflage doesnt offer an advantage, that they've been wasting money all this time, and all the science they did on the matter apparently fraudulent, because you said its wrong.
I am going to come off as being on both sides of this argument because of this post because I dont want to regulate loot boxes and also think its frequently pay-to-win even when braniacs like you incorrectly think otherwise.
Turns out not to matter (Score:2)
I'll let the military know that camouflage doesnt offer an advantage,
Yes, I actually brought that up in a previous article talking about Fortnite outfit purchases... I kind of agree with you there, as some suits are mostly dark and you would think make you harder to see.
However in practice, that doesn't really end up being what happens. You end up being able to see or not see other players pretty much equally, not sure how but I think they balance that out or highlight things in some way in the game engine
Better idea (Score:1)
I suspect that it isn't children doing most of the spending. Instead it's the same kind of people who would gladly plow hundreds or even thousands of dollars into a slot machine at the nearest casino or who would buy dozens of scratch tickets at a local gas sta
the app stores had the auto buy and game cash (Score:4, Informative)
the app stores had the auto buy with card on file (needed even for free apps) and the game cash to make it look like it's not real cash.
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when it first happened that it was not really that easy and on ios you needed an CC + and had to enter your password for free apps starting an 15 min no need to password to buy stuff.
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the app stores had the auto buy with card on file (needed even for free apps)
Wait what? When did they start requiring a CC for free apps? That's pretty bullshit, is it some new "age verification" thing?
I have three apple IDs setup within the first year or two when the app store first launched, and never linked a payment method to them. They were purely for free apps and to sync separate iTunes data to each device.
I just checked my 3gs and can still sign in to the app store, but due to its 32-bit-ness I can't test getting a free app to see if it would force me to enter a card or n
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Can confirm. When you first go into the App Store app (apps!), it requires you to set up a credit card before you can so much as look at what's there (or did when I set up my phone 2 years ago). Maybe I'm mistaken and it was only required when I tried to install a free app, but either way I used a temporary card number, which I deactivated after they accepted it.
Screw LOOT Boxes, investigate L.O.L. Crates (Score:4, Interesting)
$eriously, like $80 and the girls get some make up, dolls, and bath bombs. o.O
https://www.amazon.com/L-L-Sur... [amazon.com]
***
Last year my daughter wanted one, I was like HELL NO, not at that price. So daddy went to Dollar Tree and bought a large Tupperware bowl. Stuffed it full of little things, bath bombs, etc, etc. Wrapped it in aluminum foil. Then wrote
"Daddy L.O.L.Z." on it....
Kids loved it.
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These are generally called 'blind boxes' and are common in Japan, in particular with figurines. It's like gacha, only with an opaque box instead of a coin-op machine. Packs of collectible cards (card games included) are the same concept. I agree they're all comparable and should all be prohibited as they're pushing gambling to the retail space, and harm customers emotionally. Kids tend to open/steal these and they're unsellable if open as noone's going to buy that common figurine they already have 5 of.
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There is a market solution here (Score:2)
There is a market solution to the loot box problem: stop buying the stupid loot boxes. Better yet: Educate your kids not to buy the stupid loot boxes.
Every generation of kids has to face an addiction. When I was growing up, it was Magic: The Gathering AKA "cardboard crack." College students or graduates would spend significant their disposable income on randomized card packs, waiting to get that rare card so they could show-off to their friends. I remember one group of guys who had been in community col
Yep, because "Just Say No" worked so well (Score:4, Informative)
Loot boxes take advantage of well known defects in human thought and personality. They're very well known because they're the same defects that make gambling work. That's because loot boxes === gambling (using 3 equal signs to indicate exact match here).
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You don't ban, you regulate (Score:5, Informative)
The reason the industry won't self-regulate is they know damn well that gambling mechanics with real money being exchanged means an AO rating.
As for preventing terrible life decisions, those people's decisions effect you too. The most obvious is you get worse games. The less obvious is that people turn to crime to feed their addictions. You don't live life in a vacuum. No man is an island. And you can't just put your fingers in your ears and chant "freedom" and make out alright.
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the insurance industry, for example, is heavily regulated to ensure people get value out of it.
Yes, and the regulations specifically make sure its less value than what the citizen paid.
The insurance industry is exactly like slot machines that pay back over 90% but less than 100%
You're mixing up healthcare with insurance (Score:3)
I have life insurance. About $500k total. Why? Because if I get in a car wreck and die I don't leave a lifetime of poverty for my family behind me. This way the kids have money to finish college and get set
You missed the point (Score:2)
It's not that Home owners, car or rental insurance covers 100%. That's not the point. The point is they kick in when disaster strikes and help you deal with the worst of the financial hits.
Healthcare is no longer about the aftermath of a disaster. It's about adverting the disaster in the first place. aka Maintenance. Not a lot of folks buy maintenance contracts on their homes because they're not a good value. You can't pick the guy t
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Introduce them to the economics of it before the addiction can get a hold on them.
Great idea! Perhaps through some sort of video game ...
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Actually you hit the nail right on the head their. Magic the Gathering, straight up gamling, right here on a single website proof https://www.mtgotraders.com/st... [mtgotraders.com]. Buy packs of lottery tickets 'er' cards and sell the high value ones, a straight up lottery and fucking guess, just fucking guess exactly where the loot box idea came from and who they were copying. Keep in minds the fucking children exploits arseholes at Wizards of the Coast, ban copies of the cards at events, what the fuck, why can you not pri
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just fucking guess exactly where the loot box idea came from
Valve. They came from Valve. Team Fortress 2.
A pack of magic cards are no different than a pack of baseball cards.
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Valve was not the originator.
The loot box idea possibly came from a non-US company. It would be an interesting research topic.
Back in the 80s and 90s, CCG loot boxes were a thing. Boxes of cards of varying utility and resale value.
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The loot box idea possibly came from a non-US company. It would be an interesting research topic.
I didnt tell you it was Valve and TF2 before veryifying. I guess that makes for a big difference between us. One of us cares about being accurate, the other cares about pretending.
Re: There is a market solution here (Score:2)
You are still incorrect (insofar as valve was late to the party) as any casual search will confirm.
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That's an arbitrary goalpost you've added or you're basing it on a specific case. Might want to continue with narrowing the definition that concerns you (like a direct currency purchase?), since "loot boxes" have traditionally been transferable with exception and not the other way around. "loot boxes" have a large variation in implementation, not a specific one.
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As long as you know exactly what you get for your money, eg. a bundle of 5x Item 1, 10x Item 2 and 1x Item 3, then it's not a loot box. It's a different problem, and I'm against microtransactions as a matter of principle, but the gambling aspect of loot boxes is a problem entirely in its own category.
FTC is investigating Loot Boxes? (Score:2)
Maybe while they're at it they can investigate all the cash mom and dad are busy spending on in-app purchases in Candy Crush.
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Wow did you ever miss the point on this one. While I would never buy anything in a mobile game, what you are talking about is completely different. In your example you know exactly what you are getting before you make the purchase. Yes it has no value, but that is not the point, you are getting something that is definable; eg... jump 20 levels, 10 lollipop bombs, 3 extra lives, etc... With a loot box you are getting the chance at something of in game value.
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No, I understand - but it doesn’t sound like the “gambling” aspect is really what they’re concerned about here. From the summary:
”I think it is in fact time for the FTC to investigate these mechanisms to ensure that children are being adequately protected and to educate parents about potential addiction or other negative impacts of these games”
The addictive nature of the games and the mechanisms the game makers use to keep both kids and adults playing is the issue - wheth
Loot boxes are not gambling (Score:2)
And not all games treat loot boxes in the same way.
Gambling is a chance to win back more money than you spent on the gamble, which is impossible to do when the money is converted into a loot box that is guaranteed not to contain more money than you spent on the box in the first place.
Loot boxes are a way for gaming companies to make money via microtransactions from people that know that the contents of the boxes are random, and may contain something they want, or may contain something they don't want, and a
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I don't spend money on these types of things but I would want to know exactly what I was going to receive from my purchase.
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Gambling is a chance to win back more money than you spent on the gamble, which is impossible to do when the money is converted into a loot box that is guaranteed not to contain more money than you spent on the box in the first place.
Ahhh but is it? Your fault is assuming that all items have no value. Your fault is also assuming that items which can be bought and sold are rigged to have lower value then the cost of the box. Depending on which game you play either or both of the assumptions are false.
Old News (Score:1)
Again? (Score:1)
I feel like this has happened before...
This is how it works (Score:2)
Not technically gambling... (Score:2)
Disclaimer, I'm a fairly heavy gambler with actual money, often seeing 5-digit swings in a single day.
I've played a fair amount of games with loot boxes, some more hostile and overt than others, and have to say that I definitely do not consider them gambling in any kind of formal or legal sense. One of the key distinguishing elements is the ability to officially extract real world value out of the resultant product. This fails in almost every game: Once you spend currency on the game, whether you buy extra
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And that's completely besides the point, the point is that loot boxes are deliberately made to hook in to the same parts of the brain that cause gambling addiction. IE loot boxes are made to be addictive. And games with loot boxes are often made grindy deliberately to encourage you to buy loot boxes to avoid the grind. Or to put it another way, they have to make the gameplay less enjoyable so that you'll pay to skip it.
baseball cards (Score:2)
will they outlaw baseball cards?
Here's hoping the government steps in (Score:2)
Please regulate loot boxes, I want better drops.