Nearly Half of Game Developers Want To Unionize (engadget.com) 115
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Engadget: Unionization isn't a new idea for the game development industry, but it is a particularly hot and contentious topic right now. A handful of events in 2018 thrust the unionization conversation to the forefront, including Rockstar boss Dan Houser's comments about developers working 100-hour weeks to finish Red Dead Redemption 2, and the tragic implosion and bitter residue of Telltale Games. Groups like Game Workers Unite have been pounding the pavement (physically and digitally) and gathering support for unionization across the globe, with a goal to "bring hope to and empower those suffering in this industry." In December, a UK chapter of Game Workers Unite became a legal trade union.
With all of this conversation swirling around studio life, the folks behind the Game Developers Conference added new questions to the seventh annual State of the Industry Survey, which included responses from nearly 4,000 developers. The questions were broad: should the games industry unionize, and will the games industry unionize? Forty-seven percent of respondents said yes, game developers should unionize, while 16 percent said no and 26 percent said maybe. However, developers weren't exactly hopeful about unionization efforts. Just 21 percent of respondents said they thought the industry would unionize, and 39 percent said maybe. Twenty-four percent said it simply wasn't going to happen. The survey also found that 44 percent of developers worked more than 40 hours per week on average. Just over 1 percent said they worked more than 110 hours in a week, while 6 percent reported working 76 to 80 hours, "suggesting that deadline-related crunch can go far beyond normal working hours," according to the survey.
With all of this conversation swirling around studio life, the folks behind the Game Developers Conference added new questions to the seventh annual State of the Industry Survey, which included responses from nearly 4,000 developers. The questions were broad: should the games industry unionize, and will the games industry unionize? Forty-seven percent of respondents said yes, game developers should unionize, while 16 percent said no and 26 percent said maybe. However, developers weren't exactly hopeful about unionization efforts. Just 21 percent of respondents said they thought the industry would unionize, and 39 percent said maybe. Twenty-four percent said it simply wasn't going to happen. The survey also found that 44 percent of developers worked more than 40 hours per week on average. Just over 1 percent said they worked more than 110 hours in a week, while 6 percent reported working 76 to 80 hours, "suggesting that deadline-related crunch can go far beyond normal working hours," according to the survey.
Re:Lazy fucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
Real developers are proud to work crunch time to get a game out on time. They know it makes for a better product.
Given the enormous numbers of bugs that are shipped in virtually every title these days, I'm gonna put a [Citation Required] on this one.
They put out 3/4ths done crap, and hope they can patch it fast enough to quell the uproar.
Re: (Score:1)
You really think getting rid of crunch time would solve that? You'd get fewer bug fixes, so there would be more bugs left.
Part of crunch time is resolving bugs.
If you want more bugs, get rid of crunch time.
Re:Lazy fucks. (Score:5, Informative)
Probably so - crunch time means everyone is working burnt out, which means they have more trouble fixing bugs, and are more likely to introduce new ones.
Plus the fact that it's been repeatedly shown that doing mental work for more than about 30-40 hours per week on a regular basis actually *decreases* per-week productivity as the hours worked increase
Re: (Score:2)
You really think getting rid of crunch time would solve that?
Yes. The error rate of a programmer goes up after 30 hours/week. It skyrockets after 60 hours/week.
Crunch time means getting 20 hours/week of work done while being at the office 80 hours/week......if you give a damn about bugs.
Re:Lazy fucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
Real developers are proud to work crunch time to get a game out on time. They know it makes for a better product.
Long work weeks make developers exhausted. Exhausted workers make mistakes. Mistakes cause bugs down the line, i.e. more work, causing an ever increasing need for longer work weeks. The death march takes its toll, and the end result may very well be worse for it. I have seen it happen, and the solution is rarely to increase hours, but for management to show actual leadership and reduce the scope to something manageable.
Re:Lazy fucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
For a week or two. After that, they are crispy and progressively more useless.
The best business reason to limit hours is so the crew has enough in the tank to handle a real emergency. That means you can't be in constant emergency mode.
Re: (Score:1)
The best business reason to limit hours is so the crew has enough in the tank to handle a real emergency.
There is no "real emergency" when you making games.
If 40 hour weeks made people more productive, game companies would have figured that out decades ago. The industry is dominated by companies that demand 60-80 hour work weeks because that is the sweet spot for peak profit.
That means you can't be in constant emergency mode.
EA has been in business for 37 years. No problem so far.
Re: (Score:2)
And as a result, EA has never made a bad or broken game in their lifetime.
Re: (Score:1)
If 40 hour weeks made people more productive, game companies would have figured that out decades ago.
No. The games industry is too new. They are extremely immature. The software development industry is immature in general compared to others, but games seem to be at the very low end. Full of bad management that doesn't understand how people operate, full of incredible amounts of turnover because no one can work at that level for years on end, and full of recent college grads with no family who are too young and stupid to know that there's any better way to work.
Re: (Score:2)
EA hasn't made games of their own in _decades_. Their studios are in a constant state of birth/death as EA churns.
Re: (Score:1)
If they want a family and a social life, then what the heck are they doing in the game dev business?
That says really shitty things about the games industry.
Re: (Score:2)
'Have you ever had the solution to a tough coding problem occur to you when doing something completely unrelated?' would make a good interview question. If it didn't have such an obvious 'correct' answer. Only catch the honest, who I would assume never got through HR.
The people that can honestly say 'Yes, it's part of the process.' are the born coders.
I pretty much assume my first solution will not be the best one (for new problems). Better solutions (even if it's just 'doh, wrong pattern') often occur
Re: (Score:1)
It worked for Red Dead Redemption 2. [...]Real developers are proud to work crunch time to get a game out on time.
Yay, you got your game. Good for you. I mean, some other folks got royally fucked, but who gives a shit about them? You got to play a game.
They know it makes for a better product.
No it doesn't. We KNOW exactly the opposite is true: Once you start working more than 40, 50 hours a week, your per-hour productivity takes a big hit. You make far more mistakes, have to clean up far more messes, you're less creative, and your work is just generally shoddier. Working 80-120 hours? I don't care how superstar you think you are, you're far less effective th
Re:Lazy fucks. (Score:5, Informative)
You seem to be misinformed about where violence against workers comes from (and hint: it's not from unions):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: Lazy fucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. Your anecdote carries much less weight as a factual source than an historical article that cites many sources.
Do you not know how factual sources even work, dude?:
Re: (Score:3)
I hope they bring beer.
Re: (Score:1)
Oh. I'm sorry. Is my personal experience with real live people in my circle less of a factual source than a Wikipedia article?
Yes. Yes it absolutely is. Your experience is what we call an "anecdote." That is, it gets a "uhh, cool story, bro" because it doesn't reflect what happened to a far, far greater number of people.
Unions aren't awesome (Score:1)
I come from coal country. Unions can be toxic as hell, note the shit the teamsters continue to do, and government employee unions are straight up crooked. However, I'll say that every company that's gotten a union has deserved a union for their shitty treatment of their employees.
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is in the numbers. Quoth the summary:
Forty-seven percent of respondents said yes, game developers should unionize, while 16 percent said no and 26 percent said maybe. However, developers weren't exactly hopeful about unionization efforts. Just 21 percent of respondents said they thought the industry would unionize, and 39 percent said maybe. Twenty-four percent said it simply wasn't going to happen.
While a lot of them want a union, they expect "the industry" to plop it in their lap. They want so
Re: (Score:2)
They want someone else to do the work of rallying everyone to do it.
I'm on it.
Re:Year of Experience (Score:5, Insightful)
But I do twice the work of the old fart over there making 155k.
Sure you do. Because you have any idea how much work he actually does, and what value that work has for the company.
"But looking at hours spent physically located in the office at one's desk is a good measure of value to the company!!"
You have a career ahead of you being a terrible manager.
Re: (Score:2)
I've been paid on contract to do things that a union sysadmin (at a community college) couldn't figure out, but which were well within the scope of his job duties. At least some of the time, those guys are worthless.
Re:Year of Experience (Score:5, Insightful)
And I've been hired several times to replace all the young contractors who couldn't deliver anything that was in their contract. Turns out some people are just bad, whether or not they're a contractor or in a union.
I disagree (Score:2)
Worse, a lot of them have atrophied tech skills. I've seen older coworkers who have to bee kept away from im
Re: (Score:3)
Good lord, why wouldn't you want people to be able to take sick time? Are you upset they're not working 80 hours a week?
Re: (Score:2)
All too easy, nerds will roll over and geeks will fight, it is the way of things https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]. US corporations in collusion with Federal institutions and the Government have broken the backs of unions, seppos workers are governed by fear, except school teachers who are finally fighting back. They will front nerds one at a time, with threat of loss of employment and they will role right over, the geeks will take umbrage refuse and be fired (geeks have always been nerd shock troops, nerds
Re:I disagree (Score:5, Insightful)
It's going to be amusing watching you slowly develop a clue about what's actually going on. And then understanding it. And then watch you react to a younger developer say exactly the same things to you.
Re: (Score:2)
More likely you do twice as much running around with your hair on fire but only accomplish half as much.
Re: (Score:2)
You have two years experience. You get paid $72,000/year.
But I do twice the work of the old fart over there making 155k.
Sorry. Union rules. When you have 20 years experience, you too can make 155k/yr.
And old fart over there is four times as productive as you are. You spend a quarter of your time learning to do things, and half of your time fixing your own mistakes. Old fart already knows how to do things and doesn't make nearly as many mistakes.
Re: (Score:2)
And old fart over there is four times as productive as you are.
Maybe the year the union is voted in. A few years later and the most senior people will do the least work, safe in the assumption that their seniority will prevent them from being laid off.
Re: (Score:2)
The senior people should be doing less of the work, and more of the organizing and supervising of the work. If the old fart is stuck looking at debug screens all day, you are probably not tapping his experience properly. He should be mentoring the team, monitoring the work, and steering the work packages to the people who can best accomplish them. If something comes his way that he is good at, then he can take that work to "stay in the game". But his value comes from understanding the people around him.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe if developers stop looking at their coworkers old and young as competitors, but as brothers and sisters fighting over scraps their master gives them, then they will both share a fair proportion of the profit that they generate for the owners.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe if developers stop looking at their coworkers old and young as competitors...
'
Damn. Wish I had mod points. This is insightful and reminded me of how easily some people go to "versus" mode instead of "us" mode. The toxic pall of divisiveness permeates so much of our thinking.
I would be interested in seeing a map or timeline of the progression of acceptance of violence as a solution for everyday issues. Yea, Americans have always had strong opinions. Yea, there's always been people who spent their life hating, suspecting or resenting others. That's like drinking poison thinking
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, that's not how unions work. I've brought this up with SEIU in designing a union for IT workers. I have a laundry list of things you see in old factory unions that won't mesh with IT workers, and how to design and operate an IT Workers Union.
Meritocracy and a lack of job protectionism were the first things identified for this type of union body.
I say go for it! (Score:5, Insightful)
So go for it! Good Luck and Best wishes!
Just my 2 cents
Re: (Score:3)
So long as it's okay for the company to hire whomever they want.
In a more civilised part of the world - they can.
But they can't refuse to hire somebody just because they belong to a union, and the union doesn't get any say in whether a nonunion person gets employed.
(#58017826 [slashdot.org]) Actually, every big game studio has fought tooth and nail to ensure it never happens and that anyone involved in any such effort never works in the industry again.
And in the same more civilised part of the world - they can't. See above.
In some parts of the world people act like grownups.
Re: (Score:2)
Modern union security contracts require new hires to join the union after 30 days.
Not even half? (Score:5, Insightful)
Game development is the coal mines of the software industry, these people must be masochists.
Re: (Score:3)
If you read until the end of the summary, it says that fewer than half are working more than 40 hours a week. The stereotype is a stereotype, not a universally true statement.
Re: (Score:2)
Game development is seen as a glamorous job, kinda like making movies or pop music. You could be part of something with huge cultural significance, worshipped by the fans, and get to build something that influences and resonates with many people. If you are lucky it might even be on the cutting edge of tech or game design.
Then you find the reality is long hours and a lot of drudge work.
I know someone who has been doing it for a decade and he wouldn't give it up. He complains a lot, but also gets a lot out o
Apparently... (Score:2)
Apparently the half that "wants to unionize" doesn't want it all that badly, or they would have done it already.
Unions (Score:1)
protect the unions first then maybe the members.
I have been a member of 4 different Unions on 4 different occasions, all 4 were entirely unsatisfying.
Gaming companies are not a long term employment thing, you have to start somewhere.
Crappy jobs or predatory employers are not limited to gaming companies or coding jobs either.
I have many times voted with my finger to decline further employment from certain companies.
Sometimes my leaving benefited the remaining employees!
There are too many good places to work
Re: (Score:2)
What does geography have to do with a skillset?
Maryland code is different than Oregon code. IEC and NEC apply everywhere; but you know, in California, you need to have an air gap for a dishwasher (plumbing), while in Maryland you need a high loop (which actually doesn't help because it will not break a siphon sucking sewage into the mains). The same has been true of electrical wiring; California even had differing methods of wiring 3-way switches than other states at one point in history, and individual cities had their own code, so something NEC com
Welcome to the Stalinist States of America (Score:5, Insightful)
...If the majority of workers of this important area of economy feel unionizing (that means *standing together* and *fighting for your collective rights*) is the same as becoming lazy bums unable to care about the job they produce, then the system has won. Welcome to the Stalinist States of America. You won't oppose the system, because the system already owns you.
The only thing that saves individual persons from losing their work conditions, their freedom, their right to have a family and actually get to spend some time with them... Is standing together and stopping abusive bosses from demanding to put the company ahead of their own life and health.
MAGA! (Score:5, Insightful)
I bet many of the people on this thread who are anti-union voted for Trump.
Today it's sitting at around 11%.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
the '50s was also shortly after WW2, so the US had little competition. Europe's infrastructure and young adult populations were still recovering.
Having a union just gives you another boss (Score:1)
Having a union just gives you a second boss. They generally don't give a crap about the workers and simply manage to kill the business with stupid rules. Hell, some of them were run by the mob. Tell us again how great they were, please, I note that you don't give examples of them actually helping, you merely try to associate them with good times without explaining how they caused those (hint: these things take time, they'd have to cause that *before*)
The same time period you quote was when large portions
Re: (Score:2)
You should see what happened to minimum wage since the 50s and 60s [nordicmodelusa.org].