Game Devs Allege Extreme 'Crunch' Overtime at 'Mortal Kombat 11' Studio NetherRealm (variety.com) 222
Days after Mortal Kombat was inducted into the World Videogame Hall of Fame, multiple sources at its creator (Warner Bros Interactive studio NetherRealm) are alleging a toxic workplace with 100-hour workweeks, Variety reports, citing seven current and former full-time employees and contractors:
Reports of low pay and the crunch of extreme overtime as workers tried to finish the game on time initially surfaced about NetherRealm Studios on social media earlier in April, but those issues appear to be symptomatic of a long-term poisonous work culture at the studio, according to seven people who spoke to Variety -- five of whom asked that their names not be used for fear of reprisals... The common thread among all the sources was that they said they felt the pressure to work long hours came with the threat of being replaced or denied a chance at a more... One current employee said that he and others at the studio have been working 60 to 70 hours per week, seven days a week since January. While he said various factors are to blame for the crunch, such as poor communication and mismanagement, he cited a January marketing event for "Mortal Kombat 11," called MK Day, which put the studio behind significantly...
The catch-up still persists, even though "Mortal Kombat 11" was released on April 23. Problems with in-game currency and exploits have the studio working on its third patch to fix glitches, and it already has two more patches planned. When asked how the studio higher-ups are positioning this "catch-up" work, the current employee said that they phrase it very carefully. "I think they walk that fine line really well," he said. "So it's a lot of implying, not up-front. They don't tell us, 'You have to work these hours.' They also don't tell that to any of the temporary/contract employees. When we interviewed all of our contractor/temporary employees, my direct manager would tell them, 'Overtime isn't mandatory, but everyone is expected to do their fair share.' Meaning when we have it -- because even before we started interviewing and building up our temp team, we already knew there's going to come a point where we're going to start crunching because we've been doing this since time immemorial, [on] every project."
Some full-timers have taken to living at the studio when working the most intense periods of crunch, he said, sleeping in their office or on an inflatable sofa in their cubicle. One employee has even been spotted wearing a bathrobe while in the studio. One source said that for some of the temporary positions, it's easy enough to replace those who don't crunch with a new batch of eager contractors. Many temporary employees are recruited from DePaul University, the person said, and are students who are willing to work a nine-month contract for $14 an hour in exchange for the chance to work on a triple-A franchise.
In a statement to Variety, NetherRealm Studios said they were "actively looking into all allegations" as "we take these matters very seriously and are always working to improve our company environment." But last week James Longstreet, a developer who worked on 2011's "Mortal Kombat," posted on Twitter that "The [Mortal Kombat] team's stance is that crunch works, and MK games are always profitable, so it's clearly the right thing to do.
"It's wrong -- crunch doesn't work, the workers don't see the profit (bonuses at WB games are capped to a small percentage of salary), and it ruins lives."
The catch-up still persists, even though "Mortal Kombat 11" was released on April 23. Problems with in-game currency and exploits have the studio working on its third patch to fix glitches, and it already has two more patches planned. When asked how the studio higher-ups are positioning this "catch-up" work, the current employee said that they phrase it very carefully. "I think they walk that fine line really well," he said. "So it's a lot of implying, not up-front. They don't tell us, 'You have to work these hours.' They also don't tell that to any of the temporary/contract employees. When we interviewed all of our contractor/temporary employees, my direct manager would tell them, 'Overtime isn't mandatory, but everyone is expected to do their fair share.' Meaning when we have it -- because even before we started interviewing and building up our temp team, we already knew there's going to come a point where we're going to start crunching because we've been doing this since time immemorial, [on] every project."
Some full-timers have taken to living at the studio when working the most intense periods of crunch, he said, sleeping in their office or on an inflatable sofa in their cubicle. One employee has even been spotted wearing a bathrobe while in the studio. One source said that for some of the temporary positions, it's easy enough to replace those who don't crunch with a new batch of eager contractors. Many temporary employees are recruited from DePaul University, the person said, and are students who are willing to work a nine-month contract for $14 an hour in exchange for the chance to work on a triple-A franchise.
In a statement to Variety, NetherRealm Studios said they were "actively looking into all allegations" as "we take these matters very seriously and are always working to improve our company environment." But last week James Longstreet, a developer who worked on 2011's "Mortal Kombat," posted on Twitter that "The [Mortal Kombat] team's stance is that crunch works, and MK games are always profitable, so it's clearly the right thing to do.
"It's wrong -- crunch doesn't work, the workers don't see the profit (bonuses at WB games are capped to a small percentage of salary), and it ruins lives."
It seems their idea of social justice... (Score:4, Insightful)
...only involves to appeasing the woke crowd and doesn't extend to real people. They're aghast at the idea of scantily clad women in game but then treat real people like slaves. Hypocrites.
Still, the poor way they treat the staff probably explains why the PC port was such a catastrophe.
Excessive hours cause reduced productivity. (Score:5, Interesting)
It has been well researched. Past a certain point, an increase in hours causes a decrease in productivity. The following numbers are to illustrate a point and are not accurate. Work 40 hours a week you might make 10 units of progress per week, work 60 hours a week you might make 5 units of progress a week and if you work 80 hours a week, you may even make negative progress due to a significant amount of errors.
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Any developer who wants to enter the gaming industry (because they think it's cool or something): No, it's not. You will run into the most vicious slave drivers, and when you are burnt out, they'll spit you out.
What I'd really like
I'm not sure that's true (Score:2)
There's this belief that what's best for the workers must somehow be best for the owners. But,
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John Carmack disagrees: https://news.ycombinator.com/i... [ycombinator.com]
Note that I don't fully agree with his comment. I think it applies to him, his success in the industry is, after all, undeniable. But whether it applies to others is debatable. Still, he has good points.
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This is true, but that doesn't stop managers (even managers that know it!) from doing it.
A few years ago at my job new management came in. No more death marches. No more forced OT. We're Agile now and you don't do that. Today, there are suggestions to work more and a lot more pushback on estimates. For example "will it REALLY take that long?", and "you might as well work more now so you don't have to work overtime later".
At some point no matter who is in charge, something comes from the top to make people
Re:Excessive hours cause reduced productivity. (Score:5, Interesting)
New staff or old, the same lack of productivity (or NEGATIVE productivity after a certain threshold) will be the same. It's not a "these people" condition, it's a general human condition.
A place I worked at was in love with the crunchtime culture before we shipped each version of the software, until one fateful day when the head of QA had the interesting idea to compare entries in the bugtracker and correlate them with the source control. Long story short - he discovered that the longer people worked both on a per-day basis and on a continuous death-march, the worse the quality of their work, to the point that after a certain threshold longer hours actually appeared to be the root cause of us having to push the release back a week. After that was discovered and analyzed to death, the company then set a policy that all future development work was to be scheduled around a maximum day of 9 hours and that everyone leaves at 6pm even during crunch. And you'd never guess - next release hit the target date and had fewer bugs.
Par for the course (Score:5, Insightful)
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So ... you don't see anything changing
Re:Par for the course (Score:5, Interesting)
Make the free market work for you: if you're a good dev, you'll find better conditions elsewhere. If you can't find a better job because developers are a dime a dozen and the market is saturated, change job altogether.
I used to be a programmer, way back when it was still an interesting, respectable and wel-paid job and not a Java line pissing contest. When I had enough of the industry's bullshit, I retrained as a gunsmith. That was back in 2002. I make less money than I used to (although probably more than I would now if I had stayed), but more importantly I work 40 hours a week and each and every one of these hours is paid exactly what I'm due. I optimize my work time efficiency, and the rest is spent with my family instead of pissing my life away in front of a computer.
Re:Par for the course (Score:5, Insightful)
This is an important point which bears emphasizing. The free market doesn't work by you sitting there hoping things will get better. It works by people (including you) quitting terrible jobs, forcing the employer to improve working conditions or pay a higher wage to keep that job staffed. The "invisible hand" of the market is actually every individual buyer (employer) and seller (worker) voting yes or no for certain products (jobs) at a certain price (wage). If you don't quit a terrible job, you're voting "yes" to that job at that wage, and the market adjusts the prevailing wage to reflect your "yes" vote.
You could be forgiven for holding on to bad job to put food on the table a decade ago when the unemployment rate was near 10%. But with today's 3.6% unemployment rate, you have no excuse. If a job is bad, ditch it. The faster people ditch the bad or low-paying jobs, the faster wages will rise.
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What's that? You're leaving your previous employer mid crunch right before a major product shipment? You don't sound like the kind of team player we want working for us.
Re: Par for the course (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's a true blessing being out of work. The GP however is missing some important points. Specialist jobs in a job market are not fungible, we're not talking about waiting tables here. The actual unemployment figures are irrelevant in a tight industry with few players and doubly so when the cost of transference is high (moving to another city, or worse).
The problems at this studio are not a one off. In fact I've heard this same story about the entire game development industry. The only "blessing" you're goin
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It's a true blessing being out of work.
Versus being worked to death?
The GP however is missing some important points. Specialist jobs in a job market are not fungible, we're not talking about waiting tables here. The actual unemployment figures are irrelevant in a tight industry with few players and doubly so when the cost of transference is high (moving to another city, or worse).
I can see how it is not as simple for some people to find a new job, but if the only jobs available are detrimental to your health, it's easier to switch roles/industries than to change the industry.
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Someone I know left it just as you described. He now uses his skills to produce educational content for the military and graphics for litigation.
Personally I never entered. I still want to, but the drive has all but evaporated thanks to stories like this. Instead, I use my skills in the construction industry.
It's worth noting that companies in many differing (and suprising) industries may find a use for you and your talents. If you happen to like modeling, texturing, and programming, it doesn't have to be f
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It works by people (including you) quitting terrible jobs, forcing the employer to improve working conditions or pay a higher wage to keep that job staffed.
And when that doesn't happen? After all, it's not hard for game developers to find warm bodies to sit in a cube and program something. And it's not like management is receiving any negative result from their actions - they got their bonus from hitting the ship date, bugs or not.
This is a market failure. Market failures can not be fixed by individual self-interest, because the interests of the individuals in charge are aligned with the failure.
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Make the free market work for you: if you're a good dev, you'll find better conditions elsewhere.
Agreed! I don't want a union dictating what I get paid, what benefits there are and what conditions I work in, I want to do that negotiation myself! I'm not going to work at a place that pays peanuts and expects 70hr work weeks, that's a cultural issue that is only ever going to attract those who don't see it as "just a job" but rather as their life, and certainly there is no shortage of those people. That's just the culture of that industry and for the people who love it they wouldn't change it, but don't
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Agreed! I don't want a union dictating what I get paid, what benefits there are and what conditions I work in, I want to do that negotiation myself!
Why? You suck at it.
No really. You might think you're great at it, but the person sitting across the table from you does this all day, every day. If you are the negotiator, you will not get as good a deal as you could have because they've got way more practice and have way more information.
Also, unions do not have to dictate pay rates. For example, SAG only sets a floor for pay. If you're a good actor, you can get much more.....via your agent, who's actually good at negotiating.
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Agreed! I don't want a union dictating what I get paid, what benefits there are and what conditions I work in, I want to do that negotiation myself!
Why? You suck at it.
Why do you think that? Your assumption is purely on that basis that you want to believe I suck at it while pushing that some fantastical "agent" is going to have a significant depth of understanding about exactly what I do to be able to effectively communicate that.
You might think you're great at it, but the person sitting across the table from you does this all day, every day.
No they don't, who exactly do you think I'm negotiating with here?
Also, unions do not have to dictate pay rates. For example, SAG only sets a floor for pay. If you're a good actor, you can get much more.....via your agent, who's actually good at negotiating.
Having a whole bunch more people sucking money out of the company (and the industry as a whole) is not a good thing. Who exactly is this "agent" and who is paying them? I *highly*
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Your assumption is purely on that basis that you want to believe I suck at it while pushing that some fantastical "agent" is going to have a significant depth of understanding about exactly what I do to be able to effectively communicate that.
If you were suddenly asked to program in a language you've never used, you would not do well at it. If it was a language you had extensive practice with, you'd do much better.
Negotiation is similarly much better done by people who have practiced extensively.
For example, you're under the illusion that exactly what you do is relevant to the outcome of the negotiations. That level of specificity is not important at all, and relying on that is going to yield a worse outcome. What you could do is more valuabl
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For example, you're under the illusion that exactly what you do is relevant to the outcome of the negotiations. That level of specificity is not important at all, and relying on that is going to yield a worse outcome. What you could do is more valuable than what you are doing.
Understanding what I do and what skills I have is fundamentally important to being able to express that, if you don't know that then you don't know what I could do so you're not negotiating, you're just lying. But if you really think that then how do you quantify that for negotiation vs other programmers if you don't need to understand what makes individual developers unique?
Someone who either negotiates salaries frequently, or is being fed information, limits and techniques from someone else who negotiates salaries frequently.
This is absolutely not somebody who does this "all day, every day" so you're already backpedaling. But it is in fact also not true, we
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Understanding what I do and what skills I have is fundamentally important to being able to express that
Lemme fix that for you:
Understanding what I do and what skills I have is fundamentally important to ME being able to express that
And that limitation is an example of why you are not as good at negotiation as someone who does it all the time.
Let's try another example: If you're buying a used car, does the salesman spend a lot of time explaining the exact specifications of the vehicle, down to the observed lb-ft of torque in 3rd gear at 6000rpm? No? Huh....almost like exacting specificity isn't actually important in those negotiations....
if you don't know that then you don't know what I could do so you're not negotiating
It's a negotiation. Not a promise. What you could do and what is actual
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Understanding what I do and what skills I have is fundamentally important to being able to express that
Lemme fix that for you:
Understanding what I do and what skills I have is fundamentally important to ME being able to express that
And that limitation is an example of why you are not as good at negotiation as someone who does it all the time.
Let's try another example
How about you try an example in this industry rather than making a flawed analogy? It should be pretty easy so I'm curious as to why you're talking about car salesmen rather than being able to provide an example about programmers.
It's a negotiation. Not a promise. What you could do and what is actually doing to happen are not the same.
That's not the question, I didn't say anything about what you actually do. The question is how do you quantify what I could do? You've already said you don't need to know what I can do or what I have done so what's your pitch? You're a pretty poor negotiator if you have nothing to
Re:Par for the course (Score:4, Insightful)
And not everyone has the luxury of changing careers or the opportunity to move when they discover their job sucks. Companies can force people to crunch by witholding pay rises, bonuses or holiday, things people need to exist. Some people's very presence in the country might controlled by their employer - H1B visas for example are basically a form of indenture and companies know and exploit that fact.
And while I have no love for unions, people have that right to form / join one and that option should be explored by people being fucked over by their company. Even the threat of unionisation can bring about change in the way a company treats its staff.
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I'm not one of those with blind faith in capitalism but reality seems to be all those college kids that work for $14/hr for 9 months really *want* to do that. It's not that they are forced, they dream being on a AAA project. That's a force that cannot and should not be stopped. Eventually the word will spread around that it sucks, people will quit, it will no longer be a dream, and the problem will self correct. And if that doesn't happen, then it is a powerful fantasy, a dream, and it should live. The seni
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Make the free market work for you
If your only interest is solving your own issue, that works.
If you want to solve the systemic problem, only looking out for yourself does not work.
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H1Bs seem somewhat rare in the videogame industry. The ones I've seen have mostly been from Europe, and are pretty typical in their motivations, skill sets, and (presumably) salaries. I also know a number of them who have become US citizens, married locals, etc.
This makes sense if you think about it. If we assume most typical H1Bs are working overseas purely for economic reasons, it wouldn't make much sense to work in an industry that has a reputation for long hours and lower pay.
And I'm now a bit depres
Re:Par for the course (Score:5, Interesting)
I've worked as a professional videogame programmer for several decades now, and have shipped quite a few titles, ranging from bargain basement crap to AAA titles you've certainly heard of. You need to keep in mind that you tend to only hear about the horror stories. While I've seen some of those excesses myself, I've also worked for studios where crunching was rare, and when it occurred, was pretty limited in hours and duration. A significant number of problems I've seen, heard of, or read about are the result of terrible management, and crunching was only one of many problems, often symptomatic of deeper issues. This story seem no different in that regard.
When I felt an employer was asking too much from me as an employee or I wanted to seek better opportunities elsewhere, I found another job. Even after only a few years of experience, I found it entirely possible to find new jobs, even during recessions. Surprisingly, I found the videogame industry to be somewhat resilient to recessions, even though employment is a bit more unstable than some other industries in general.
That being said, I'm fortunate enough to be a programmer. When they talk about $14/hour contractors, I'm pretty sure they're talking about QA, not artists or programmers. QA, by nature, tends to be a more transient position, most useful near the end of the project, and it's easy to find replacement workers, as it requires a less demanding skillset. Unfortunately, this means it's easier for shitty studios to exploit them. It happens to artists and programmers too of course, but they tend to have more options. What I found really disgusting was the promise of full-time employment being dangled in front of the contractors, which is something of a long-shot for QA in general, unless the company is big enough to have multiple overlapping titles that they can constantly be shifted to.
I'm not convinced unionization is the answer. Maybe it would help with the extended hours, but it would definitely have a lot of downsides as well. Realistically, I don't think it's going to happen - certainly not in the near future. But one thing that definitely seems to be helping the industry is when word leaks out about a specific company that treat their employees like shit, and the conversation that ensues. I wouldn't feel uncomfortable in interviews these days asking what a company's stance on work-life balance is, and asking how often or how much they feel crunching is reasonable. I think that indicates that this issue has gotten a lot more awareness. Many industry vets seem to know more or less which companies are prone to poor working conditions, and a company with a poor reputation is going to find it harder to attract experienced talent, which still matters for getting titles out the door without being a technical disaster.
Re: Par for the course (Score:2, Interesting)
I've been in two unions. The first Union was very good at cooperating with the company and had low dues. Unfortunately the company took advantage, made secret deals with separate union members, and then tried to eliminate full time jobs. Lesson learned.
The second Union was much better in protecting workers. The company basically wanted to pay minimum wage and no overtime pay for mandatory overtime (it wasn't stated but if you went even a week without OT you got written up). The stewards were really committe
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What are some of the downsides of unionisation, in your experience?
I can't say "in my experience", because my entire career has been in game development. Naturally, that means I've never been in a union.
I think, in general, I'd dislike the loss of control over my own career. I've enjoyed being able to take responsibility for my own salary and position negotiations. I wouldn't like having to strike if my union told me to strike. I wouldn't want to pay money to a union that might support things I don't necessarily believe in.
I don't consider myself anti-union by any mean
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Unique snowflake pablum.
You don't have it now. You are at the mercy of what companies are willing to pay to a labor pool they will suppress by any means necessary. Besides, all the anti-union crap from people who work for a living is embarrassing, given the fact that the very best paid workers on the planet are all members of unions. Tom Brady is the member of a union, as are Steven Spielberg and Tom Cruise.
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You are at the mercy of what companies are willing to pay to a labor pool they will suppress by any means necessary.
Meanwhile, in the real world he's able to find employers that understand the dynamics of managing a workforce and that know that productive employees are the ones that are happy.
all the anti-union crap from people who work for a living is embarrassing
I know, it really shows up all of the pro-union crap from people that don't want to work for a living and see a union as a great way of achieving that aim.
the very best paid workers on the planet are all members of unions
Which union is Zuckerberg in? Which union is Bezos in? Which union is Ellison in?
You mean being at the mercy of a supervisor's whims and HR pay scales.
Ah, I see. You can't manage your supervisor and lack the skills or ability to change role or job.
But you have no problem with companies taking the sweat from your brow and using it to pay for lobbyists who lobby against your interests
E
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I find it odd that lower skill workers (like package delivery or grocery store workers) understand the need for collective bargaining to insure fair wages and benefits, but higher skill workers like Engineers and Programmers do not.
You would think that a bunch of people with a high IQs and advanced degrees would recognize that they're getting screwed over by management with 80+ hour shifts more quickly than places that only require a high school education or less.
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I find it odd that lower skill workers (like package delivery or grocery store workers) understand the need for collective bargaining to insure fair wages and benefits, but higher skill workers like Engineers and Programmers do not.
Collective bargaining works when when the work itself can be easily quantified. How do you quantify the work of say a programmer? Lines of code? Hours spent at work? Number of commits?
Document every hour (Score:2)
Document every hour, then when the project is done, demand your comp time.
"It's wrong -- crunch doesn't work... (Score:3)
"It's wrong -- crunch doesn't work, the workers don't see the profit (bonuses at WB games are capped to a small percentage of salary), and it ruins lives."
?? Then why work there? ESPECIALLY if it's the second time around (or more.) If your life is being ruined -- walk, or RUN away. If it's actually that bad don't even bother with a notice, it sounds like seconds count.
....
The first time is a learning experience for everyone because you see where the chips fall. But the second time? Fool me twice, shame
Maybe it could be done better, maybe it's harsh, or whatever; but crunch SEEMS to be doing something right or they wouldn't do it.
"bonuses at WB games are capped" -- that's a surprise retroactive contract change, of course, riiight? It's not like it was written in your contract or anything when you originally signed on to the company.
Crunch apparently does work (Score:4, Interesting)
MK11 has been pretty well received.
Crunch sucks (I have been through many 90+ hour weeks in the past). But I have to say that the simple fact is that time and again, people can get a lot of stuff done if you work way too many hours.
Do you suffer mentally and physically? Oh yes. But there are some things that sometimes are not going to get done in a reasonable time without a bunch of people burning themselves out...
If you do not like it, avoid companies with a habit of doing this, as it's usually a historical trend you can easily use to predict if it will happen again.
But a lot of programmers seem to be OK, or to some limited extent enjoy the crunch times.
Of course, a useful tip is if you think church will be involved on some project is to be paid hourly... then at least at the end of the crunch, you will be somewhat rewarded.
I would say if you hate crunch, maybe the game industry is the worst one for you as it seems to be worst at getting into crunches (and there's no escape by going to smaller companies, look at the churches that indie devs put themselves through in many documentaries!!!).
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the simple fact is that time and again, people can get a lot of stuff done if you work way too many hours
However, the evidence is available that they can get more done if they work nearer 40 hours a week on a continued basis.
Occasional crunch can add value. Continual 60+ hour weeks causes productivity drops that outweigh the additional hours worked.
Of course, people are individuals so everybody has a different level. I can stay productive for a 90 hour week and deliver high quality output but ask me to do a second week like that and things go to shit.
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It would be the norm, not the exception, here (Score:5, Informative)
You have never been through 90+ hour work weeks.
Not in recent years, but yes I have - I was sleeping at the office, and worked through through the weekend. It's only 13-14 hours a day, it's not like you are living without sleep at all... over 100 hours it what gets dicey.
I don't understand what would lead you to doubt this when a lot of other programmers have pulled this at times. I only did an all nighter a handful of times for a company but did a number of them for programming projects in collage...
Again, why doubt anyone on Slashdot who says they worked long hours? Seems kind of nuts to think otherwise. I assume pretty much everyone posting to Slashdot has done something like that at one time or another - if you've not, more power to you for avoiding it. But it was mostly my choice, it's not like I was generally forced to work super long hours.
That's too broad a claim (Score:3)
You creativity goes out the door and error rates dramatically rise eliminating what little benefit the overtime brought.
Do you think those studies really study programmers intently though?
I'm not going to deny that error rates can increase some, but I think it depends on where the push comes from as to how creativity goes.
Simply put, if you are pushed into working lots of extra hours I can see creativity go - because internally you are resisting doing what you are doing. Same thing for error rates if you d
Re: That's too broad a claim (Score:2)
Every codebase I've seen - and I've seen a lot - that was written by developers forced to work inhumane hours, was a scatterbrained bundle of spaghetti. Always riddled with bugs and security vulnerabilities.
The nicest and _definitely_ the most secure proprietary code I've seen was at a fairly well known big company. Where developers are expressly forbidden to work overtime. Except in the case of actual real once-a-year type emergencies. Not self-induced schedule "emergencies".
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Why not just leave? (Score:3)
Unemployment is at historic lows, pay is at historic highs, economy is on fire. Just turn in your resignation and leave, what the fuck is the problem here?
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Broham, what are you smoking? And won't you please share some with the rest of us - because it's obviously some good shit.
Living outside of the US? I can see why you'd be having problems. Living in Canada? You'd be better off job hunting in the US right now, especially since we're on the edge of a deflationary spiral with wages decreasing and cost of goods increasing.
If you're in the US and you think they're the one smoking something then there's a problem. And it's likely you, either lacking skills, lacking a trade, or living in an area that's simply shit. SoCal, WA, and MD all come to mind for living in areas that are comp
this is why we need UNIONS!! (Score:2, Insightful)
this is why we need UNIONS!!
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No, this is why you need good employment law that protects employees.
Why pay a union to do something when the government can do it for free?
Re: this is why we need UNIONS!! (Score:2)
"Why pay a union to do something when the government can do it for free?"
Why buy a car when you can just ride your magic carpet for FREE?
Oh yeah - it's because magic carpets don't exist. And capitalist governments don't give a flying fuck about workers' rights.
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If the work comes in waves for no additional salary, I expect each hour worked above 40 to go into a PTO pool.
I get paid a high salary because it's understood by both parties that I'm being employed to deliver outcomes.
That those outcomes occasionally require effort beyond a normal working week is implicit. That I'm expected to be able to negotiate and commit to a sensible workload so that the working week isn't at excessive levels is also implicit.
So any work past 40 hours is both my fault and also already covered by my salary. Why would I expect additional pay or PTO in return?
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How about, negotiating your salary based on your merit as an employee? Oops, unions tend to abolish that one...
Usually, no. Unions involving salaried positions usually set a floor for a salary, but no ceiling. After all, the union gets more money if you get paid more because you're actually as irreplaceable as your delusions.
In reality, the union organizers and the politicians take credit for lots of reforms which were instituted by business owners competing for employees, which after they were pretty commonly in place, were only then included in union contracts and laws.
You know nothing of labor history, btw.
I'm absolutely sure they're "looking into it" (Score:2)
NetherRealm Studios said they were "actively looking into all allegations" as "we take these matters very seriously and are always working to improve our company environment."
"We've investigated ourselves and cleared us of any wrong-doing."
Honestly, their statement is pant-on-head crazy. It basically says "We have no idea what our payroll looks like. Those guys sleeping in their cubicles and working at 2am is something we thought was perfectly normal, so we never bothered to question it." It just screams ei
Baseball Players and Musicians (Score:2)
Baseball Players and Musicians must be up in arms over this news, I mean the hours they work, nights and weekends, I would be complaining also..
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Oh and the Doctors and Nurses and Uber Drivers.. I mean how many hours do you need to put in?
I would rather be a garbage man collector, at least you can work a decent 40 hours a week...
Perpetual crunch has only one reason (Score:2)
Crappy management.
Fire the incompetent idiots and hire new management. Repeat as necessary.
Another reason to skip AAA games (Score:2)
A game developed by a gigantic team, often mismaneged, driven to the extreme, made up of people who just graduated, some don't even care about the end product anymore. And you wonder why they are already working on a 3rd patch release to fix all kinds of bugs in MK?
Hardly does a AAA title still surprise me, while Indie games (made by a small, passionate team) mostly do.
This just shouldn't be necessary.... (Score:2)
I've said for a long time now that I can't believe how high a price these games fetch, upon new release. I mean, it wasn't THAT long ago I would consider $30 or so about the most I'd pay for a new video game. With so many millions of options out there and new games released every week, it just doesn't seem like there's justification to spend much more than that on one? You could get a lot more entertainment value out of just playing older titles that are already discounted.
With the current pricing for a new
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With the current pricing for a new PS4 or XBox game at $50 to $60? It seems like there's PLENTY of profit to be had producing one of these big name titles
The price of making a AAA title has skyrocketed in the last few years, thanks to advances in technology. After all, nobody had to design "pretty" walls for Bard's Tale, since they were all the same flat panel of pixels. So prices are going up to handle the multi-hundred-million-dollar budgets.
Obvious Dev Mistake is Obvious (Score:2)
Crunch works. (Score:2)
But companies don't care to give really fat bonuses anymore, despite reporting some of the most insane sales for some games. It makes no sense that you wouldn't want to grossly reward those who go above and beyond for YOUR product and company! Boggles my mind!
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people actually working 75hr weeks couldnt be surveyed because they were working.
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Capitalism is generally slavery in disguise, yes.
But I'll tell you what: in this case, if them devs don't want to work 100 hrs a week and be treated like slaves, they should go find work somewhere else. If they don't and stay put, by definition it means they feel their situation is better where they're at now than elsewhere - meaning they probably know they're crap developers who'll have a hard time getting employed someplace else. Because really, what developer worth employing would accept work conditions
Re:Wow! Incredible! (Score:5, Insightful)
Or the developers could the intelligent thing : unionize. Unions do fit a significant role between the employer and the employees. It makes it so the employer cannot do what this shitty studio is doing.
Thing is, cruch time is endemic in the software devlopment world. You cannot correct this kind of shitty behaviour with lofty "liberal" ideas. You need a counterpower to the employers who mistreat their workers and unions are it.
A worker is a worker, wether he works in a factory, or is a designer in some high level fashion atelier, or some devloper working for Microsoft, Apple or Oracle. Single workers cannot correct systemic violations by their employers. Only a union can. Power can only be fought with power.
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What the developers need to do is get some fucking pride in themselves and their work and refuse to work under those conditions, even if it means walking away.
This would only have an effect if the company believed it would have any difficulty in replacing those workers. It doesn't.
Game developers can get new warm bodies on a moment's notice, and the people running the show usually don't understand how disruptive developer churn is.
That is, if your goal was to actually change industry practice instead of being a 100% self-interested prick....
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Generally games made in this manner are total shit. We'll see what capitalism has to say about it when "Mortal Kombat 12" is released.
it means they feel their situation is better where they're at now than elsewhere - meaning they probably know they're crap developers
I agree with you here - because they're crap developers and this is probably the biggest/best project they have ever been involved with (possibly WILL ever be involved with) - having it on the CV has more value than the flak they are getting from their families or the health issues they are adding to the little tab that life likes to keep on people. It's the only reason they
Re: Wow! Incredible! (Score:2, Interesting)
You're arguing with retards who think needing to work to buy food is slavery. I appreciate you fighting the fight, but it's not the good fight. It's just retards.
Re: Wow! Incredible! (Score:4, Funny)
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You obviously haven't lived in a communist country. Or studied history.
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Under communism, the economy is used for the benefit of all, not a few robber barons and rent seekers
Uh-huh. Tell it to the poor bastards that starved to death under Mao and Stalin.
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Under communism, the economy is used for the benefit of all, not a few robber barons and rent seekers
Uh-huh. Tell it to the poor bastards that starved to death under Mao and Stalin.
And the elections in many nations with "Democratic" in the name have fake elections. Soviet Russia was an authoritarian socialist country whose goal was communism, but actual communism has never been reached, much like an actual Federation of Planets government. Now, that's a pedantic argument and not going along with the common argot, but the people most likely to point that out are the ones that actually know and care. Much like how everybody uses "socialism" these days but are hardly talking about anythi
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Communism is for the benefit of man.
It's just better if you are that man, else it sucks.
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As is invariably the case, those who criticize communism are actually describing capitalism. Castro lived in a modest apartment until the end of his life. Whereas a single family in the US (Waltons) have more wealth than a hundred million Americans, some of whom dumpster dive for food a few blocks from the White House.
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Communism! Try it! 100 million dead can't be wrong!
https://www.wsj.com/articles/1... [wsj.com]
https://www.usatoday.com/story... [usatoday.com]
https://scottmanning.com/conte... [scottmanning.com]
Surely you can make your communist utopia. All the other nations listed above did it wrong. Surely they weren't pure enough in their communistic intent. Too many non-believers got in the way. You can make a pure communist government where all have failed before you. You can do this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Communism, when you believe violence is the on
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Oh noes, the 100 million canard! What will I dooooo?
You might wanna get some new talking points that weren't third rate propaganda in the 80's. The population of the Soviet Union steadily increased [wikipedia.org] for its entire existence, including Stalin's reign, and that's with losing almost 30 million people to the Nazis in WWII. Whining about famines is equally problematic:
1) Famines happened on a regular basis under the Tsars, something capitalists DGAF anymore than they care about the Irish Famine and other starva
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You can find starving people eating out of dumpsters a few blocks from the White House. In the richest country in the history of the world. A single family (Waltons) has more wealth than a hundred million Americans. Over a trillion dollars [motherjones.com] is spent each year on the military, while thousands of people die every year from something as simple as a toothache. [go.com]
What was your point again?
Re: Wow! Incredible! (Score:2)
How would a game like MK 11 even get made under âoeidealâ communism? Thereâ(TM)d be zero incentive for anyone to do or think through the difficult things needed to develop the game. Do you know how hard it is to make a game? Now who would do that if they got no extra reward versus watching TV all day or trolling on slashdot?
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Uh, the government funded that for military purposes. Life was terrible under communism which is why it collapsed hard. The only game the Soviets made was Tetris and the guy who made it left!
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No. [wikipedia.org]
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Yes, that's the theory. The practice is wildly different.
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Cute but no. Under capitalism, the economy benefits the few. Under communism, the economy is used for the benefit of all, not a few robber barons and rent seekers.
In theory yeah, but in practice it doesn't really work that way.
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That's exactly how it worked - communism eliminated homelessness and hunger, which you can find in spades in capitalist countries like the United States, the richest country in the history of the world. It also provided health care and education, which are privileges in the aforementioned United States.
Communisms only mistake was not copying capitalism and defining failure as success, like people eating out of dumpsters blocks from the White House and corporate implosions like Enron resulting in capital rea
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How many notable computer games has communism given us? Tetris?
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Re: Wow! Incredible! (Score:2, Interesting)
A typical week in game development:
Meetings to discuss work and assign personnel, assign daily busy work.
Check on progress, fire people, replace fired people and people who quit
Demo new features internally
Blow bonus on hookers and blow
I think it's a universal story
Now, in my former company we disallowed overtime because
a) research showed no economic benefit and
b) we felt employees would be happier
We were extreme about allowing flex time since employees that are empowered tend to be truthful with management.
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I worked on a FIFA game. Nobody worked too hard. The rockstar devs made mad money. Everyone else received competitive (or at least fair) compensation.
Where you on the copy and paste team or the loot box, sorry fut card team?
Impossible to justify (Score:3)
This is exploitation to sate corporate greed. Nothing more, nothing less. 50 hour work weeks are a sign you need to hire more people. 100? Someone needs to fuck off.
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Some Game developers are making $500k/6mo work.
The owners of Cloud Imperium are not a good reference point.
Most game developers are making less than they could earn applying their skills in a more standard corporate environment, working fewer hours there too.
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That's not the issue here. Everyone's replaceable (with very rare exceptions).
The issue here is that crunching for extended periods of time shouldn't exist, period. The mentality transpiring from the article is "crunch or I fire you and get someone who will". THAT is the issue. THIS is what shouldn't happen.
Sure, you can be replaced by someone better, someone who is more productive during those 8 legal hours of work. I see no problem there. But it's wrong to be threatened with someone who is willing to work
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Sure, you can be replaced by someone better, someone who is more productive during those 8 legal hours of work. I see no problem there. But it's wrong to be threatened with someone who is willing to work 12-16h a day instead of 8, even if they're not better and they would achieve 90% of what you can during those normal 8h a day of work.
I don't get it: you think it's immoral for less productive people to get jobs, even if they're willing to accept less money or longer hours or other poorer working conditions? So the "cognitive elite" are the only people worthy of employment? The secret weapon of the least competent, experienced, and capable people has always been that they will accept a lower price (salary, hours, conditions) than more elite candidates, and you're implying that this is somehow immoral? The elite devs shouldn't have to l
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No, I think people should compete on the same metrics.
I develop Business Intelligence analyses and reports. I am good at what I do. I don't fear being replaced by someone with a higher skill set (they would be a lot more expensive than me), but at the same time I fear the obtuseness of management, who could replace me with someone asking for the same salary, but willing to work overtime, just because "that one will work more than this one for the same amount". Never mind my replacement would produce the sam
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Thanks for your thoughtful answer. I completely agree that I personally would like to compete on skill alone, but not everyone can do that. Who am I to limit what other consenting adults agree to, including making a deal under terms that don't prioritize certain skill metrics over work hours? Government regulation here is, quite literally, using the threat of violence/prison/fines to stop party A hiring B under terms they mutually accept because party C finds those terms objectionable (hours too long).
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Regulation could be light, for example overtime to be paid at twice or three times the usual rate, mandatory for all jobs. Hiding overtime and getting caught? Then yes, some sort of punishment should occur, but that's how you deal with illegal behavior.
Also, universal basic income isn't a replacement for families having time to spend together.
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Morally, it's irrelevant whether the regulation is light or heavy, just the punishment if you fail to follow it. You have made no case weighing the justice of the punishment against your desire to have more leisure time. Indeed the fact that you're relenting to "light" regulation and not doubling down on a throaty defense of 30 hour work weeks, etc., suggests to me that you have trouble justifying your position to yourself, but I could be wrong.
I wasn't claiming UBI was a replacement for family time, but
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About UBI, this just in:
https://yro.slashdot.org/story... [slashdot.org]
I think we have to establish a frame of reference here, because we're seeing the same thing from different angles.
You said: "You have made no case weighing the justice of the punishment against your desire to have more leisure time." This is incorrect. I have no desire to have MORE leisure time. I have a desire to NOT have LESS leisure time than generally agreed through the standard 40-hours work week. Most people have a 40-hour work week. It is consi
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If they can only do 90% of what you can in a 12-16hr day they won't get hired.
What I meant is person B does 90% of what person A does, during the same amount of time.
Person A makes 1000 nails in 8 hours, person B makes 900 nails in 8 hours, but person B is willing to work for 12 hours a day, thus making 1300 nails (I took tiredness into account). So they hire person B and fire person A.
The only way for person A to successfully compete is to work 12 hours a day themselves. Thus they are being pressured into overtime. The answer around here is "get another job" - this kind of advice is
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Probably. Though the gaming industry here in the west is kinda a clusterfuck at the moment. You've got big name ownership orgs like EA, having screw up, with screw up, over the last 4 or 5 product releases. People who couldn't cut that, got shuffled or fired. You've got a bunch of other studios doing the same thing. Then you've got all the 'indie' studios all in the sanfran-hipster-typhoid disease section out there telling everyone that making $250k/year is great!(while you pay $115k/year in rent).