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Government United States Games

Video Game 'Loot Boxes' Would Be Outlawed in Many Games Under Forthcoming Federal Bill (washingtonpost.com) 335

Posted by msmash from the about-time dept.
Video games popular among kids would be prohibited from offering "loot boxes" or randomized assortments of digital weapons, clothing and other items that can be purchased for a fee, under federal legislation to be introduced by Republican Sen. Josh Hawley (Mo.). From a report: Hawley's Protecting Children from Abusive Games Act takes aim at a growing industry revenue stream that analysts say could be worth more than $50 billion -- but one that increasingly has triggered worldwide scrutiny out of fear it fosters addictive behaviors and entices kids to gamble. Hawley's proposed bill, outlined Wednesday, covers games explicitly targeted to players under age 18 as well as those for broader audiences where developers are aware that kids are making in-game purchases. Along with outlawing loot boxes, these video games also would be banned from offering "pay to win" schemes, where players must spend money to access additional content or gain digital advantages over rival players.

"Social media and video games prey on user addiction, siphoning our kids' attention from the real world and extracting profits from fostering compulsive habits," Hawley said in a statement. "No matter this business model's advantages to the tech industry, one thing is clear: There is no excuse for exploiting children through such practices." Offering one "notorious example," Hawley's office pointed to Candy Crush, a popular, free smartphone puzzle app that allows users to spend $149.99 on a bundle of goods that include virtual currency and other items that make the game easier to play.
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Video Game 'Loot Boxes' Would Be Outlawed in Many Games Under Forthcoming Federal Bill More

Video Game 'Loot Boxes' Would Be Outlawed in Many Games Under Forthcoming Federal Bill

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  • As it should be, as it must be. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @12:54PM (#58558660)

    Gambling is gambling, whether you wrap it in a video game and market it to children or not. Period. It eventually must be treated as what it is. Are there other ways to accomplish what these companies want? Of course there are.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The developers want a billion dollars per year for a game that isn't very good. No, there are not ways other than pay to win for them to accomplish that.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        There are ways to get kids to play and spend money without defacto targeting them with gambling. If video game companies put dime bags of heroin in the box, that would be analogous to allowing them to addict kids to gambling.

        Gambling is addictive and bad for development. Video games are addictive enough already.

    • Gambling is gambling

      Funny that the lotto is a form of gambling and yet it's totally legal and widespread even where "actual gambling" is not legal.

      • My grandmother hated gambling, but played bingo at church all the time. Go figure.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by TWX ( 665546 )

          How do you get a sweet, little old lady to drop the f-bomb?

          Get another sweet, little old lady to shout, "Bingo!"

          • Misconception there, my friend. That's a 'this generation' mentality. My grandmother and her generation (she was born in 1922) would just wink, and maybe show a thumbs-up, to the winner. Everyone would go home happy. I miss that attitude.

    • Loot boxes to not be gambling need to rather tightly managed.
      1. Content of the loot box should be equal or greater then to the value of the items. So when you play you will always get a "value"
      2. The ability to sell or trade items you don't need, or avoid useless items you don't need, or duplicates that are not helpful.
      3. Clear posting on the probability on what you will get.

      • >Content of the loot box should be equal or greater then to the value of the items. So when you play you will always get a "value"
        And how do you determine the value of a digital object with zero production costs? In a free market competition will drive prices down to the incremental cost of production, which is $0.00 for digital items, so I'd say that should be the maximum fair value to charge for it not to be considered gambling...

      • Loot boxes to not be gambling need to rather tightly managed.
        1. Content of the loot box should be equal or greater then to the value of the items. So when you play you will always get a "value"
        2. The ability to sell or trade items you don't need, or avoid useless items you don't need, or duplicates that are not helpful.
        3. Clear posting on the probability on what you will get.

        They could do as Piranha Games has done with MechWarrior Online and make "loot boxes" something that are given out for simply playing and contain RNGesus-selected items that are all purchasable in-game, most buy-able with in-game currency earned by just playing. The more and the better you play, the more and the faster you earn "loot boxes". No money involved. Just chachkis for simply playing their game.

        Strat

      • 4. must be refunded if an error backs it out or gives an lesser thing
        5. must have compensation for resemblance and refund of your base bet

    • Are there other ways to accomplish what these companies want?

      And that matters why??

    • Re:As it should be, as it must be. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Actually, I do RTFA ( 1058596 ) on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @06:27PM (#58560962)

      Gambling is gambling, whether you wrap it in a video game and market it to children or not. Period.

      Nonsense. It's one thing to peddle a slot machine to a 30-year-old who has the cash to pay for it and had to specifically go somewhere to play it. It's another to use a free always available video game to brainwash a child into spending their parent's money (often without permission) on a hyperaddicitve virtual slot machine where the prizes are "rare" assortments of pixels.

      That is, I have respect for the people who make slot machines. They provide a vice for adults with known payouts. As entertainment, it can be pretty affordable. People who abuse children by taking the same aspects and making them worse in every way, are scum.

  • Where are the parents? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ScooterBill ( 599835 ) on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @12:55PM (#58558676)

    Any parent that gives their kid the ability to spend $150 on a loot box deserves it when they do so. At some point kids and parents need to realize that there's this thing called learning to be responsible for one's actions. If we offload parenting to a game companies and congress then we're all fucked.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by TWX ( 665546 )

      As someone that was arguably addicted to video games more than twenty years ago, do you think it's easy to stem that addiction? It was hard back then when one had to use the family desktop PC to get one's fix and there far fewer avenues to serving that addiction.

      Nowadays just about everyone over age twelve has a personal general-purpose electronic device capable of connecting to the Internet and capable of playing games, and many school-age kids have school-issued laptop computers that are also capable of

      • This software as a service model is bullshit. Sell the game to the player, and be done with the transactions. Stop trying to get people to continue to pay and pay to unlock more features. It's a friggin' game , not some piece of critical infrastructure equipment whose featureset is tailored to a specific application such that the buyer should only buy features for that application.

        You dismiss it as a mere "game". But that for-profit business trying to survive and thrive in the middle of Maximum Capitalism, USA, calls it a recurring revenue stream.

        Yeah, I hate SaaS as much as the next greybeard who remembers when that shit didn't rule the software world, but we also need to understand the reality of today, because your rant and a billion others like it won't change a fucking thing. SaaS is here to stay.

        And if you think mindless entertainment isn't critical for society, let me know

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by lgw ( 121541 )

      The parents are too bust spending $1500 on FIFA loot boxes to notice thir kid spending $150 on Smurfberries.

      I'm glad to finally see some pushback on this loot box BS. In general, I'm torn on how aggressive the government should be in preventing sales of addictive products, but in this case it's clear: games have become worse in order to incentivize buying loot boxes.

      This isn't a case of "don't adults have a right to make mistakes", so much of "corporation deliberately making a shit product to squeeze every

    • As a parent I'd be happy to not have to argue with my kids that we're not paying for that crap so quit asking. Also, can we ban the candy at the register that is conveniently positioned at an 8 year old's eye level.

    • If we offload parenting to a game companies and congress then we're all fucked.

      A large part of the laws of the land are there purely to regulate stupidity. When left to their own devices humans have an innate preference for absolute anarchy. You can see that for any addiction, any "problem" be it gambling, alcohol, or a face-full of cigarettes while waiting for a lung transplant.

      Children are clever and they lack the critical thinking of adults, something which demonstrably doesn't really solve the problem in the first place. Blaming the parents is just asinine when there are actual co

    • Any parent that gives their kid the ability to spend $150 on a loot box deserves it when they do so. At some point kids and parents need to realize that there's this thing called learning to be responsible for one's actions. If we offload parenting to a game companies and congress then we're all fucked.

      Offloading any part of parenting to game companies and/or congress tends to fuck us as parents, and as a society.

      We're mostly geeks here, and as such probably can't imagine giving our kids the opportunity to pay $150 for a CANDY CRUSH LOOT BOX of all the #"^*&@# things. (Candy Crush?? Really???). I can see where extremely inattentive and technologically naive parents might allow such things to happen. But I'm pretty sure an act of congress isn't the answer. Maybe the answer is to let it play out, an

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Collectible Card games (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ardmhacha ( 192482 ) on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @01:08PM (#58558796)

    How is this part of video games different than Collectible Card games like Pokemon or MAgic the Gathering where you can purchase random assortments of cards some of which may be rare powerful cards?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by SumDog ( 466607 )

      This was the question I came here to ask as well. I don't know enough about the loot boxes. I'm guessing from the other comments they're not as balanced as playing card packs, or maybe it's more to do with the easy of access in on-line games and the large amounts of money you can spend; which is more difficult in a store with kids picking out card packs.

      • Right, it isn't like playing cards where you always get the same set.

        It is like baseball cards, where the set may include something of value, or it may only have common cards. Anybody can buy a pack and have a passing interest, but if you're into it you have to keep buying more and more packs; even though you already have multiple copies of most of the (worthless) cards.

        The reason it is a problem is because the devices are given to children, and often have credit cards attached to the account. It is a big h

    • Your device is incredibly insecure. It is very easy for a kid to buy something using your phone or tablet. If you give them a login and misconfigure your security, they can make purchases. My guess is that's the only reason expensive loot boxes exist...hoping a child buys them and the parent doesn't notice in time to dispute the charge.
      If a kid wants to buy Pokemon cards, they have to go to a store. There are existing mechanisms to prevent unauthorized purchases. It is very difficult for a 4yo to st
    • I'd imagine the argument might be with CCGs you at least get something physical for your money, which could, in turn, be sold in a secondary market and never expire. With digital games, most don't allow you to trade or sell your goods, and if the game were to ever go belly up, would expire. I do agree with you that if a kid has an addictive personality, they're just as likely to try and dump a bunch of cash on a box of cards chasing a rare as they would buying digital goods.

    • How is this part of video games different than Collectible Card games

      Physical cards are worth more, bring permanence, resaleability, and just collectible value. Physical cards are harder to get, as physical purchases have far better protections on sales than do virtual ones. That's very important when a lot of kids have used their parent's credit cards without permission. Physical cards are limited. The costs of printing/shipping/storing means that the number of cards for sale are limited. Fortnight pr

  • That is the Governments Job! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Zorro ( 15797 ) on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @01:13PM (#58558836)

    Now Buy this lottery Ticket FOR THE SCHOOLS......

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by EvilSS ( 557649 )

      Now Buy this lottery Ticket FOR THE SCHOOLS......

      What state do you live in that allows the sale of lottery tickets to children?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Shotgun ( 30919 )

        Not sold TO children, but it does allow innumerate people to buy the tickets with the child's lunch money.

      • My State definitely has a Stupid Tax that goes to the schools, and it is definitely paid by volunteers and is called a Lottery.

        I'm surprised you never heard of this.

  • Honestly, if they just prohibited companies from applying neuroscience for the express purpose of increasing profits then we would actually be getting somewhere. However, few in congress actually give a shit. I'm sure this Republican is only clutching his pearls because he found out his grandson spent a bunch of cash on a game.

  • So, is the workaround to have loot boxes that are payed for with in game currency that is obtained from playing? Call of duty black ops 4 has a set of point that can be payed for and a progress based system for their loot boxes. Is that effected by this proposed law?

    • This is never going to even be voted on, much less passed into law.

      What the workaround would be is that you don't allow purchase if the registered account isn't at least 18yo.

      Just like if you buy wine from a mail-order catalog, you have to sign a thing that promises you're old enough.

      The proposed enforcement mechanism is civil; the government would have to sue you over it if they think you're either advertising to minors, or that you are knowingly accepting payment from minors.

      A workaround could be as simpl

  • (in the modern sense anyways, not talking about Diablo style drops) not liking the whole loot-box construct combined with unaddressed, and unacknowledged time-hack cheating caused me to quit playing the game and never go back.

    I'm looking at you South Park Phone Destroyer.

    The fix for loot boxes was addressed in the 80's. The only way to win it to not play the game.

  • ambivalence (Score:5, Interesting)

    by reanjr ( 588767 ) on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @01:22PM (#58558922) Homepage

    On the one hand, I prefer the government to avoid entangling itself between businesses and consumers. On the other hand, this shit has pushed out 99% of the alternative market and has essentially ruined video gaming.

  • Hmmm (Score:2)

    by Dunbal ( 464142 ) *
    How are kids making in-game purchases if you need to be 18 to have a credit card? If they're using mommy or daddy's credit card it's a problem for mommy and daddy, not the fucking government.

    • You can buy a prepaid CC at most big box store checkouts. Load it with cash.

    • Why would you have to be 18 to have access to a credit card?

      This is a recurring thing; you think that society already is so filled with rules that kids don't have credit cards. So you're against new rules.

      But actually those rules don't already exist. Kids do have access to credit cards.

      And like most of the idiots of this type, the level or rules that your fighting for is actually more rules than we have now. You're fighting against the rules instead, because you don't know what the rules are now, and somebo

  • What is gambling? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @01:54PM (#58559220)
    People frequently criticize stock market trading as gambling. There actually is a clear statistical difference.
    • Stocks are (over time) positive sum. On average everyone makes money. The total value of all stocks goes up over time, meaning on average stock investors make more money than they put in. So trading and investing in stocks, if done with an eye to try to pick out the better stocks to invest in, is good for the economy.
    • Same goes for savings accounts. They're positive sum. (You're basically loaning money to the bank. The bank makes an effort to pick out the better stocks to invest that money in. They take a cut of the dividends from that investment, and pass on a guaranteed amount to you as interest for loaning them the money.) So they're good for the economy.
    • Insurance is zero sum, negative sum if you subtract the cut taken by the insurance company. On average you lose money buying insurance. But the "winners" in insurance are people who suffer a pre-agreed loss. So insurance has the effect of moderating the financial impact of unexpected random losses. That results in more economic stability (fewer bankruptcies), so it actually ends up a net gain for the economy.
    • Gambling is zero sum, negative sum if you include the cut taken by the casino. On average, gamblers lose money. But unlike insurance, the winners are randomly distributed, so there's no benefit to the economy as with insurance. So gambling is on balance bad for the economy. (The only way it helps the economy is if you count its entertainment value as stress relief for the gamblers. But the few addicted gamblers who gamble too much end up counteracting this benefit on average.)

    So unless these loot boxes in games are improving the lives of the players more than the cost of the loot boxes, they are not just linked to gambling. They are gambling.

    That said, I'm not sure banning loot box games is really the correct solution. The problem isn't the games per se. It's kids falling for these companies' marketing which convinces them that it's important to have that fantastic prize that you can only get from a loot box that nobody else in their class will have. The correct solution is to teach kids that unless that prize actually helps their real life productivity (as opposed to their popularity or the jealousy of other kids), then it's not really important. If we concentrated on teaching that lesson to kids, maybe we wouldn't see stupid crap like kids beating up each other to steal their designer shoes, or as adults they wouldn't waste money leasing an expensive car that they otherwise couldn't afford to buy.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cowdung ( 702933 )

      Does the total value of the stock market go up in value?

      How do you define value? Dollars?

      Are today's Dollars equal to those of 30 years ago? If you adjust for the dollar has value increased? Has your buying power increased? Or has the dollar merely devaluated while companies haven't?

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by stdarg ( 456557 )

        It sounds like you're asking about stock market performance adjusted for inflation. Yes, the stock market is up over a 30 year period when adjusted for inflation.

    • You can't win with loot boxes because they don't contain money. The only reason you could "Win" is if you were going to directly purchase something in game but decided to try a loot box instead and got it in the first box which cost less than that direct purchase price. Either way, the driver here is the demand for the good, not the chance to win something with any real value. That's why the analogy fails.

  • Why is he starting with video games? He should first target those gumball machines that promise a cool spider ring, but the only thing you ever get is a pencil eraser. Down with the gumball machine pirates! I want my quarter back.

    • He should first target those gumball machines that promise a cool spider ring, but the only thing you ever get is a pencil eraser. Down with the gumball machine pirates! I want my quarter back.

      Nyeah nyeah, I got the spider ring.

      Seriously, I did. I think I still have it, in a little box full of childhood junk in the basement.

      And that makes me better than you. I know, because the system told me so.

    • You'll never get your quarter back. If you want anybody to feel sorry for your situation, you have to find the gumball machine that accepts credit cards, and then empty it out completely searching for the cool spider ring.

      Then when your parents can't pay their mortgage and start whining about it, they'll get some sympathy. Or shamed for poor parenting. It depends on if they signal the right politics by their clothing choices, and also what they otherwise look like.

  • Arcades could be added to this list (Score:3)

    by ravenscar ( 1662985 ) on Wednesday May 08, 2019 @02:43PM (#58559618)

    My daughter and I used to enjoy going to arcades, but over the last few years the games have moved from "insert token for playing time" to "insert token for a chance at winning tickets." Some of these can still be considered games of skill (basketball, skeeball, etc.), but I don't think a strong case could be made for skill on a large percentage. I mean, push a plunger to spin a wheel and find out what number it lands on (equivalent to the number of tickets it will dispense) seems pretty random and gambling-like to me. I guess the way that they get away with it is that the machine always dispenses at least one ticket. It's pretty sad to see a bunch of little kids running around dumping tokens into what are essentially slot machines aimed at youth.

    Obviously, I was able to address this problem on my own (we don't go anymore). I'm not making a case for a law, just noting that gambling-like industries that target kids are everywhere and parents should be wary.

  • And also pass a law against that evil Jazz music that all the reefer-addicts are dancing to!!!

  • They are pure gambling nonsense. Kill 'em and everything like them.

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