Loot Boxes in Games Are Gambling and Should Be Banned For Kids, Say UK MPs (techcrunch.com) 65
UK MPs have called for the government to regulate the games industry's use of loot boxes under current gambling legislation -- urging a blanket ban on the sale of loot boxes to players who are children. From a report: Kids should instead be able to earn in-game credits to unlock look boxes, MPs have suggested in a recommendation that won't be music to the games industry's ears. Loot boxes refer to virtual items in games that can be bought with real-world money and do not reveal their contents in advance. The MPs argue the mechanic should be considered games of chance played for money's worth and regulated by the UK Gambling Act. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport's (DCMS) parliamentary committee makes the recommendations in a report published today following an enquiry into immersive and addictive technologies that saw it take evidence from a number of tech companies including Fortnite maker Epic Games; Facebook-owned Instagram; and Snapchap. The committee said it found representatives from the games industry to be "wilfully obtuse" in answering questions about typical patterns of play -- data the report emphasizes is necessary for proper understanding of how players are engaging with games -- as well as calling out some games and social media company representatives for demonstrating "a lack of honesty and transparency," leading it to question what the companies have to hide.
Re: They are not gambling and they shouldn't be ba (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
You bring up an excellent point, and it should probably be looked into, but I think that companies like Nintendo and Wizards Of The Coast are getting away with this because they haven't been caught disguising or manipulating the odds in a predatory fashion, and neither have they participated directly in facilitating the resale market nor pricing of said resold cards.
Re: They are not gambling and they shouldn't be b (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Nope, because votes don't cost money.
Re: (Score:2)
The same exact thing could be said for Pokemon cards. Does the UK want to ban pokemon cards?
I thought they were going to sell them to make money after CrashBrexit.
Re: (Score:2)
Games are a bit special. Adults still play them. You don't have many people sinking loads of money into pogs. Quite a few people in their later teens to early twenty bombing their paycheck on computer games with gambling mechanics.
Re: (Score:1)
The difference is that gives you a tangible product. Wizards cannot ban me from playing MTG, nor can they disallow me from using proxies or fake cards, and are not obligated to allow tournament entry (nor are you entitled to it). I am free to sell and trade the cards I acquire, I cannot do this with the majority of lootbox or gacha games and when I can it's often trapped on another market.
In addition, if WOTC goes belly-up tomorrow, I still have my cards, can still play the game, and can even organize (unofficial) tournaments. If Waifu Simulator Gacha 2018 shuts down, all my stuff is gone and I can't get anything back. If EA bans my Origin account, then all my shit is gone for good unless I do serious dicksucking or file a lawsuit. If Blizzard shuts down the WoW servers, they will DMCA any private servers that spring up, even non-profit ones.
That's the difference between the two.
Re: (Score:2)
are they also going to ban packs of sports trading cards (baseball, soccer/football, cricket, etc...) since those are worth money and come in randomized packs?
Re: (Score:3)
Loot boxes on their own in respect to random rewards in games are a standard and not much of a problem though there can be some cross over where virtual in game currency is purchased.
There is a big concern if people get things mixed up.
What we're talking here are implementations of slot
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
The issue enters in because the items they can win are worth wildly variable amounts of money, and can be traded on the open market facilitated by in-game trading features. Certain more rare items even become widely popular and can entice players to buy loot boxes while under a false impression of what their chances are of scoring an item that is worth a lot more than the loot box initially cost.
Re: (Score:2)
They are "winning" items that can be exchanged for money, either officially through their own platform or through other platforms.
They are "winning" items that have either a direct monetary value (pay $X for Y fake currency, pay Z fake currency for item if directly purchasable), or an indirect monetary value via the odds of getting the item * the cost of opening loot boxes or the market rate for the item if it were to be sold for cash.
Re: (Score:2)
I agree. The whole problem with gambling is that one side stands to loss something. What's the potential loss here, for either side? I mean, if this is gambling, then so are those candy machines where you might not get the color gum ball that you want (of course, in this analogy, rather than putting a quarter in the machine, by simply walking around the store, you gain credit to turn the gum ball machine's crank X number of times).
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1)
If you're going to play a game, you will have to allot time for it. That's not gambling. If you play a game, and in the game simply passing a level provides you with a special weapon, you could then sell that weapon to those that cannot pass that level. Is that gambling too?
What you seem to be proposing, and I may be wrong, gives reason to say that 'playing the game' is itself a gamble.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If people of a society are torn between going to work or playing a game for a chance to maybe win a virtual thing and maybe sell that thing for a month's salary, then said society has much bigger problems than gambling. Also, if you're "playing" a game for the loot of it, you're not "playing", you're "working".
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Or being paid!
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
Loot boxes are gambling because they a) offer rewards b) are a game of chance c) require paying money to win.
Re: (Score:1)
Even in Las Vegas they use chips, not money. That doesn't preclude the items being gambled having monetary value.
Why would you make a difference between gambling with gold and gambling with dollar bills? Perhaps more importantly for your argument, how would you make a difference between those that actually makes sense?
Re: (Score:2)
You spend currency for a **RANDOM** outcome.
It's gambling. PERIOD.
Many game developers, myself included, and gamers, hate the predatory nature of loot box due to their exploitative nature.
Re: (Score:2)
trading cards are a random outcome. they have been around since the mid 1800's. and some of them are worth a considerable amount of money.
obviously gambling. obviously should be banned.
Re: (Score:2)
No one has, to my knowledge (which could obviously be lacking), gotten into financial difficulties from buying trading cards in the hope of getting rich.
A lot of people have gotten into financial difficulties from buying loot boxes in the hope of getting rich.
I am not sure what precisely makes the difference, but I do not really care either. It is clear that there is a difference, and it is easy to ban one without banning the other.
Re: They are not gambling and they shouldn't be ba (Score:2)
I think one difference is that with trading/collectible cards the cards are the whole point. It's even in the name.
Mostly it seems some people want to defend loot boxes by ignoring all nuance.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah it's even worse than regular gambling.... you can pump $10,000 dollars into a game and never have any chance of seeing a cent.
Yes you "might" get l33t gear , which is uber sweet. but ultimately it's shite. The fact that you "might" get something is gambling.
If they are serious about this they can restrict loot boxes to age verified accounts. Or accounts that parents have given approval.
There certainly shouldn't be any laws prohibiting adults from making horrible decisions.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: loot boxes are less harmful to kids than Brexi (Score:2)
Of course it's not falling apart. Which is why all your banks are shifting to negative interest rates. That's certainly the sign of a healthy financial system.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Right, because the interest rates in 2016 were just fine and dandy. Wait, no, you already saw negative interest rates at that point. The idea that Trump had any primary effect on European economic woes that weren't already baked in to a system shuddering under its own weight is absurd.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's the sign of an economy that forgot that you have to have money on the demand side if you want to sell something.
Re: (Score:3)
Would you bet your money on it? Because that's what the Brits are doing right now.
Posting bullshit on the internet is cheap, but would you put your money where your mouth is?
Verdict (Score:5, Interesting)
I feel much the same way about loot boxes as I do marijuana; not for kids, let adults decide for themselves.
Re: Verdict (Score:3)
Part of the problem is that loot boxes sound fairly benign. Especially if you aren't a gamer and the nuances are lost on you.
Personally I think they should ban loot boxes because they are a pox on gaming, never mind the children.
T'he UK parliament is suspended (Score:2)
How can they do anything now anyways . . . ?
Re: (Score:2)
How can they do anything now anyways . . . ?
The report was published today, but the meetings would have already been held.
Plus the proroguation is illegal anyway.
LOL surprise and stickers are also gambling (Score:3, Insightful)
Loot boxes refer to virtual items in games that can be bought with real-world money and do not reveal their contents in advance. The MPs argue the mechanic should be considered games of chance played for moneyâ(TM)s worth and regulated by the UK Gambling Act.
LOL surprise toys [mgae.com] are also (real-world) gambling according to their ruling, and they are specifically targeted for kids. And kinder surprise. And probably collectible stickers. So they should be banned.
Not that I disagree, just that they seem very similar to me according to their description, since some rare items in a collection are always worth a huge amount of money.
Re: (Score:2)
Loot boxes refer to virtual items in games that can be bought with real-world money and do not reveal their contents in advance. The MPs argue the mechanic should be considered games of chance played for moneyâ(TM)s worth and regulated by the UK Gambling Act.
LOL surprise toys [mgae.com] are also (real-world) gambling according to their ruling, and they are specifically targeted for kids. And kinder surprise. And probably collectible stickers. So they should be banned.
Not that I disagree, just that they seem very similar to me according to their description, since some rare items in a collection are always worth a huge amount of money.
Also, booster packs of any Collectible Card Game or Trading Card Game, Magic the Gathering being the biggest example.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I can tell you how they're both different from slot machines, at least according to US courts: the gambling aspect of a slot machine is that you may or may not receive more than you put into it. With loot boxes and booster packs (Actually the ruling was for baseball cards, but those are also sold in booster packs.) you receive no money in return. When you buy a
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't watch your whole video, so maybe there's an explanation in there somewhere, but: in what way are booster packs different from loot boxes? I can tell you how they're both different from slot machines, at least according to US courts: the gambling aspect of a slot machine is that you may or may not receive more than you put into it. With loot boxes and booster packs (Actually the ruling was for baseball cards, but those are also sold in booster packs.) you receive no money in return. When you buy a booster pack you're purchasing (not gambling for) a certain number of cards, and you always get that. This is why loot boxes are never empty: because they are a purchase, and not a gamble. The counter argument is that different cards have different value, and so you're risking money in the hope of receiving cards that are worth more in money than you put in, but the court didn't find that convincing.
Agreed 100%. I'm not saying that the court ruling was wrong. I'm simply saying that loot boxes and booster packs are almost identical to each other in this regard.
I own a game store, and I can tell you that the very first thing anyone talks about after opening a pack is "Did I get cards worth more than I paid for the pack?" and not "Did I get cards that are useful to me?"
Re: (Score:2)
Yea, that was the first thing that came to my mind too; in this sense it's very clear that capsule toys sold from gumball machines are every bit as much gambling, but the difference here is that the people distributing the capsule toys aren't creating an overt threat to the public's well-being by simultaneously running a open market for their trade and sale while manipulating the gambling odds and hype in an unregulated fashion to maximize the sales volume and resale prices.
Re: (Score:2)
I think we're capable of a more nuanced approach (Score:2)
Kinder cannot, for example, make the game easier or harder to encourage you to spend money because there is no "game", it's just chocolate.
See, what makes it "gambling" is that there is a game, not just a chance.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
They are gambling and should only be in Indies (Score:2)
Obviously loot boxes are a form of gambling and should only exist in Indie games, and owned by Indigenous Peoples, like Scotland and Wales in the UK, and controlled by the Queen of Scotland and the Prince of Wales under Letters of Marque.
Or in Canada under First Nations control, under the Queen of Canada.
Isn't it all gambling? (Score:2)
The only scenario by which it wouldn't be gambling is either if the price of the game is all up front and it doesn't matter how you do, or if the things you win in the game cannot be bought other
Yes, ban them all please (Score:3)
Gambling is a terrible thing, and kids have no business being exposed to it. PULL THAT JUNK NOW.
Show them the cards (the stuff) before they pay (Score:3)
Have a system where you see what you will get before paying. Roll over the contents every hour or whatever period.
Contents would probably improve. Sales may go down.
But in no way is it gambling. It is a short term sale.
I play little games that do this, I haven't spent a cent, and won't.
Really (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Politicians (Score:2)
Handing over power to politician fools is a gamble too and should be banned.