As Videogames Respond To Protesters, Fortnite Removes Police Cars (engadget.com) 209
Epic Games is apparently trying to navigate some difficult cultural waters, reports Engadget:
Gamers report that Epic has removed all police cars from Fortnite as of the shooter's latest update, and the Wall Street Journal understands that it was in response to Black Lives Matter protests over police violence. The developer wasn't trying to make a "political statement," according to a WSJ source — rather, it was trying to be "sensitive about the issues" players are dealing with...
The broader game industry has endorsed the Black Lives Matter cause, including a message in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and temporary shutdowns of GTA Online and Red Dead Online. Epic appears to be taking a milder approach with Fortnite, acknowledging the outrage without explicitly advocating for a cause. The company previously stressed that it wouldn't ban players for political speech.
The broader game industry has endorsed the Black Lives Matter cause, including a message in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and temporary shutdowns of GTA Online and Red Dead Online. Epic appears to be taking a milder approach with Fortnite, acknowledging the outrage without explicitly advocating for a cause. The company previously stressed that it wouldn't ban players for political speech.
Concerned about the cost of the burned property? (Score:4, Funny)
Did the protesters burn too many virtual cars for their feelings?
Re:Concerned about the cost of the burned property (Score:4, Funny)
Too many flames, bogged down the server...
Re: Concerned about the cost of the burned propert (Score:5, Informative)
You know the very first memory I have of playing GTA?
My brother being awesome by getting so many cop cars to pile up around him, that the engine ran out of resources and the rest of the city being completely empty of cars. We crossed the entire city, and saw not one car.
Oh, and lighting a cop on fire, stealing his own car, and running him over with it while it burned.
And you know how much we related that to real cops and real life? *Not one single bit.*
It was just funny. And fun. Precisely because you could and would never do this in real life. Because it isn't real life. To state the obvious.
Re: Concerned about the cost of the burned propert (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
This. The problem isn't with intelligent people that like to hack around a game and see what's possible and how to make fun of it in other ways than was originally intended. No, the worry here is that thugs with nothing better to do, play out things in reality as they do in games. They have effectively zero imagination and have only to look to TV or games.
So the real question is, how far will this logic carry out? From the viewpoint of those concerned with viloence in video games, what's the difference
Re: (Score:2)
Single player game where everyone but you is just an NPC.
Fortnight is populated entirely by other players. That's why teabagging is popular.
Re: (Score:2)
Or the protesters last memory of the car was them shooting teargas at them.
Why is must trying to be nice to people such a political statement.
Re: (Score:3)
BLM wants absolutely nothing to do with SJWs, LGBTWTFBBQ, feminists/sexists or bleeding heart liberals
If that is the case, they might want to talk to the people writing their official website [blacklivesmatter.com] where exactly those issues are addressed.
We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.
We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.
We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle c
Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Police cars may hurt the feeling of people...in a game where people kill each other for hours...daily...for years.
Re:Of course (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, it's pointless to try and be sensitive about such issues to this extent. Some of these snowflakes would be offended by the lack of LGBT representation in the card deck of a Patience game. Or the fact that the bombs in Minesweeper are black...
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
and every sperm is sacred
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
So you better swallow.
Re: (Score:2)
Ior Bock, is that you? I thought you were dead.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
You're in good company if blacks using full blown ebonics and calling each other "n*gger" are good people who don't subscribe to black power racist ideology and actually agree that all lives matter.
Isn't that a good thing?
Of course, this is the empty set (Score:2)
The people I know who say "All lives matter" also say racial slurs left and right.
Fact check: DO you know people who say "All lives matter"?
Re: (Score:2)
When someone says "Save the rainforest" they're not saying "Fuck every other forest", they want attention drawn to the most pressing issue which is a high per-capita of black people being murdered by police who are becoming increasingly dangerous to the public.
Re: (Score:2)
So why they did not choose "save black lives"? That would have been less controversial than the actual slogan. It is a bad slogan, deal with it.
Re: (Score:2)
If someone in North Carolina says, "Save the pine forest!", we're just going to look at him like he's an idiot. (the south eastern half of the state is mostly pine farms). There is no crisis that would require the pine forests to need saving.
Likewise, your claims of "per-capita of black people being murdered" does not amount to a "pressing" matter other than to shine a light on the actual pressing matter of 7% of the population committing 50% of the violent crimes. Deal with the disproportionate amount o
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Wrong [Re: Of course] (Score:3)
You don't normally say "X matters" unless there's the corresponding "X doesn't matter" that you think someone implies.
That's not correct. When I say "distinguishing an integer variable from a floating point variable matters" it does not imply "it doesn't matter if you give two different variables the same name."
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's not correct. When I say "distinguishing an integer variable from a floating point variable matters" it does not imply "it doesn't matter if you give two different variables the same name."
And that would be relevant if I said that "X matters" implies "X doesn't matter". But I didn't.
What you said was:
You don't normally say "X matters" unless there's the corresponding "X doesn't matter" that you think someone implies.
So, what you said you didn't say is pretty much exactly what you said.
If you knew the difference between "imply" and "infer" you might have expressed it differently, but you don't and you didn't.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Lies, and the lying liars who tell them (Score:3)
You do realise that there are plenty of BLM activists openly saying that only "all lives don't matter, black lives matter"?
I do not realize that, because it is not true.
There's plenty of video evidence of this,
I notice you don't cite any evidence. That's because you are making shit up.
And they still openly say that slogan as a reply to "all lives matter". "No sir, all lives don't matter. Black lives matter".
Not even once.
Re: (Score:2)
If you think that google will ever allow indexing of any such videos for more than a few minutes, you haven't been following on google search nuking videos that don't align with their politics for at least half a year to this point.
They're so far into it, they literally de-index entire youtube channels now. Most of the "how dare you be racist by filming me beat this Jew" stuff nowadays is in Telegram groups. Can't link those. Pretty much the only easy web source nowadays is when these videos are embedded as
Re: (Score:2)
Christ on a bike.
We have a video titled "The Glory of Ancommistan". I don't even know what that is and the description is even more cryptic: "CHAZ/CHOP is showing you bourgeoisie capitalist swine that anarcho-communism is our one true god. Bootlickers eternally BTFO. DAS RITE."
Anyway the lady in the clip is just responding to a troll, and it seems unlikely that she intended her statement to be in support of black supremacy. Just an off-the-cuff remark that she probably later regretted not phrasing better.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
All Lives Matter was started in response to Black Lives Matter, specifically to falsely imply that BLM was some kind of black supremacy group or that the systemic racism black people experience is universal.
Looking at the prominent voices of BLM, it does appear to be a black supremacy group no different then the black panthers or new black panthers.
"It's okay to be white" was a 4chan troll created with the intention of falsely claiming that people opposing it don't think it's okay to be white.
That wasn't a troll. It was to point out the double standard, one it did beautifully. The number of news media, politicians, school administrators, faculty, etc, all declaring those words racist? Going as far as to threaten hate crime charges? Stating they'd expel students? Yep it did prove their point. Especially when there was nary a peep over "It's okay to
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
>Can you imagine if black people were actually after supremacy or revenge?
We don't need to imagine. We just need to look at what blacks are doing in South Africa. Castrating the father of the family. Then making him and mother watch them drowing children in scalding water in front of their parents. You know, where the skin comes off their skulls before they actually die to breathing in scalding water, burning out the lungs and finally losing consciousness. Then raping the mother to death for a few hours.
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
Can you imagine if black people were actually after supremacy or revenge?
You mean like in Zimbabwe? South Africa? Both of which are now failed states that struggle to keep the electricity and water running.
It would be very different to how things are today. For example you don't see white men being lynched. They would probably be bringing arms to the protests like those white guys desperate for a haircut did. Some police forces would be predominantly black and racially profiling white people, with brutality and murder the same as black folk get.
No, but you see white men being gunned down by blacks in a massive number when you compare white on black. Besides, those "white guys desperate for a haircut" wasn't the crux of the issue, it was the state governor overstepping her bounds. Not only violating the US constitution, but the state constitution. But here's the thing that you miss with police, black police raciall
Re: (Score:3)
For example you don't see white men being lynched.
A third of lynching victims between the 1880s and 1960s were white. [archive.org] There was also the incidents in Zimbabwae where white farmers were stripped of their land and beaten/murdered by Mugabe's goons, which drove Zimbabwae head-first into chaos because nobody knew proper agriculture. Lynching is not strictly a white-on-black American issue, and can occur across any divisive lines.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm talking about this millennium in the United States. There's been at least 7 black men hung from trees since the protests started, no arrests and most barely investigated.
Re: (Score:3)
Can you imagine if black people were actually after supremacy or revenge? ... I'm talking about this millennium in the United States.
Of course "black people" is too general a term, but there are trends. We can look at a few examples of some not very isolated incidents:
Beat Whitey Night [youtube.com]
Point Em Out Knock Em Out [youtube.com]
white inmates are disproportionately targeted for abuse (rape) [hrw.org]
Re: (Score:2)
As opposed to what they *say* they're trying to do.
Re: (Score:2)
They did say that's what they were trying to do. Screenshot of the thread here: https://web.archive.org/web/20... [archive.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Amazing isn't it? 4chan proves that an innocuous statement that no other racial group would get in trouble or be labeled as racist, does in deed call forth the "It's a racist message." Proving their point, and there's highly selective bias.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
All lives do matter [Re: Of course] (Score:5, Insightful)
The phrase "all lives matter" was a tremendous propaganda coup for the right.
That phrase is the very essence of liberalism: liberalism started with the proposition that it's not just the aristocracy that matters: the peasants and farmers and shopkeepers should have rights, too, and has expanded to include all humans. "All lives matter" is concisely what "liberal" means.
By suckering liberals into saying "don't say that!", conservative trolls managed to turn "all lives matter" into a conservative talking point. Wow.
The correct response to people saying "all lives matter" should have been "Black lives matter because all lives matter."
Looks like liberals already lost that propaganda war, and didn't even know that they were in a battle. They have long essays telling us how, yes, telling us not to say that doesn't mean that they believe some lives don't matter... but the only people who read those essays are already on the team.
Re: (Score:3)
No, the correct response to "All lives matter" should be "All lives matter when black lives matter".
OK, that's reasonable.
Re: (Score:3)
That is the problem isn't it when you go around saying "Black lives matter" you get the natural response of "All lives matter" with huge debates about irrelevancies. But in reality who the hell cares, what we all really want is a society where everybody has a reasonable opportunity so succeed if they try. But we are stuck debating irrelevant semantics of sentences while nothing of any real significance gets changed. It is past the time for chanting slogans at each other, and removing cop cars from video ga
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Wait, we have now redefined "truck attack" jihadis as cops?
How far can far left insanity go?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Well that seems terribly pointless (Score:3, Insightful)
Ohmyfuckinggod.... (Score:2)
#StupidityExhaustion
Re: (Score:2)
Leftists: Hold my beer
The world is going nuts. (Score:5, Insightful)
The last few days I've been wondering when the book-burning starts and we get a quasi-fascist society with a hipster design.
Racism is bad and needs fixing, inequality is bad and needs fixing but these social-media-outrage dimwits are doing more damage than good right now. Anyone can be the next target for some stupid hearsay reason and it seems we're moving into something resembling a maoist society, fast. Opinions are oppressed, discussion is suffocated and I'm afraid of sticking my head out, because one hysteric stupid girl with a set of followers on twitter can destroy my life.
It's probably fine to have to think twice about saying something as a white male, but there are things I see moving us to an oppressive society that won't benefit anybody.
I don't like it and I'm questioning if I want to be a part of this society.
Re: (Score:2)
The last few days I've been wondering when the book-burning starts and we get a quasi-fascist society with a hipster design.
Ever wonder why the meme "And then one day, for no reason at all people voted Hitler." Is a thing? Because the amount of chaos, bullshit, literal bullshit, and even worse bullshit will push people to take even bad options as the best option. And when stability caused by extremists like we're seeing becomes a thing for the passive non-voters? Well we're not at that point yet, but the progressive and leftist blocks are sure pushing it. And when the people they're supporting start causing violence? Do you
Re: (Score:2)
Ever wonder why the meme "And then one day, for no reason at all people voted Hitler." Is a thing?
It is interesting you make this comment, if you read up on history from that time period, the reason Hitler was able to come to power was because of how the rest of Europe had put Germany into a disastrous strangle hold after the end of WWI.
The Germany economy was a total mess, the people weren't allowed to have an army to protect them, Europe wouldn't allow fair trade deals.
So here comes Hitler who tells the people he will help them throw off the yoke of European oppression. So was it any wonder that
Re: (Score:2)
We disenfranchised a whole people and they got very angry.
Rather like we do to black people here, as we have for centuries. Oh, but Hitler admired and took inspiration from our systems? What a shock... /s
Hitler's gripe was that we danced around it too much.
Re: (Score:2)
Occurring now.
Re: (Score:3)
> Do you notice that it's not them taking care of those
> causing the violence, rather they claim it's
> "infiltrators" or "racists" or "white supremacists" or
> "far-right" or "incels" or some other trendy buzzword.
And if you'd ever spent any time as part of the protest scene, you would know that what you wrote is exactly the case. I did spend a smallish part of my 20s in that scene; before I realized how shallow and pointless it is. I call it "the protest scene" because a scene is exactly what
Re: (Score:2)
This is actually the scary part. Most US blacks don't hate US, nor do they hate other races. Small portion of them are black power racists who are now leading the BLM movement. Which is used to basically instigate a full blown revolt.
What happens when revolt gets crushed? How much hatred will there be from everyone else toward "blacks" in general rather than "black power racists" in particular for this outcome? How much racism toward blacks will actually make a hard come back among all other races because o
Re: (Score:2)
Fuck, there weren't really any black people in Finland until twentieth century for obvious reasons of geographic realities. There were however slave raids by brown Tatars and Turks, though
No, actually, the slave raids were mostly done by Vikings.
The modern view of Vikings seems to be that oh, we kinda like their attitude, although they did do some amount of raping and pillaging, I guess that's bad... but we overlook the fact that the single most important commodity [natmus.dk] they got from raids was capturing slaves [nationalgeographic.com] and selling them.
Oh, and they weren't kindly masters, [sciencenordic.com] either.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You can't ban a book in the United States. That's a breach of the first amendment.
Re: (Score:2)
Really? Try to get an advance copy of JK Rowlings next book.
*golfclap* (Score:2)
What a great way to show to those idiots that claim that computer game violence leads to real violence that there is no connection between computer games and reality...
Yeah, that's gonna send the right message.
Ridicuous. (Score:2)
Why is the response to insanity and evil always insanity and evil?
Do you *want* to show that you are just as fucked-up as the stereotype you despise?
I am absolutely no fan of police, and exclusively had bad experiences, even when they were investigating for me. And even I know that police is a fundamental element of any stable state.
When did "the (loud and visible parts of the) world" decide to go insane? WTF? Did some pharma company decide to sell a new drug to ALL the kids, or what?
Is it like mild lead po
Re: (Score:2)
Much of the world has been locked down in their homes for months. This is a major disruption to people's lives. The emotional and mental strain this puts on people has been grossly underestimated.
Re: (Score:3)
This isn't new, you're just being exposed to a taste of it.
It has always existed in this country as an economic system. Slavery and plantations, 13th amendment then was used to round up black people by inventing crimes, then we had segregation and Jim Crow, then The War on Drugs (poor people) and prison labor/private service companies, and now we're moving to an electronic monitoring system by GPS ankle bracelet and community service programs.
Do you know that theres a very high probability your Idaho potato
No doughnut jokes yet? (Score:2)
When can we expect for doughnut shops to stop selling coffee and baked treats to the police?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Police have to spend time filling out all this various paperwork, usually done while in the car or back at the police station. Doughnut shops chains are open 24 hours and we wanted the cops to be in there to provide free protection.
Censorship (Score:5, Insightful)
Self-censorship, out of fear of SJW or to be hyper politically correct, is no better than government-mandated censorship that happens in countries like China and North Korea. In fact, it is worse, because we, the people, have no say so in these matters. These decisions are not being made by people we have elected, or laws supported by our representatives or that we have voted on.
This is just one tiny example of ridiculous changes being forced on us by these corporations. Another is the removal of an American icon like Aunt Jemima (the black relatives of the woman who played this persona for 25 years until her death in the 1950s is vehemently opposed to the removal of this brand by the way).
This is no better than if a government was restricting our free speech and rights, trying to "cleanse" our country of our history and cultural identity by mandate. This entire movement is becoming a nebulous, vague hysteria, like McCarthyism or the Salem witch trials. It needs to stop.
Re: (Score:2)
So vehemently opposed that they sued PepsiCo for $3 billion [eater.com] for "for failing to pay royalties for the use of Anna Short Harrington's likeness" and allegedly stealing "64 original formulas and 22
Re: (Score:2)
Either that or there isn't any budget in the lower end devices to render that much variation. You forget this also has to run on mobile and Switch. I heard they were taken out for complexity reasons. Police cars aren't the only ones missing, many other cars and vehicles have disappeared as well. Most of the map is underwater and a lot of what is left is scrap as well.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
You consider a middle-aged black man in a suit and bowtie to be a racist?
Re: (Score:2)
Self-censorship, out of fear of SJW or to be hyper politically correct, is no better than government-mandated censorship that happens in countries like China and North Korea.
Well, no. It's stupid and ineffective, but the only way it could be as bad is if *everyone* self censored out of fear of reprisal. That's what government-mandated censorship ultimately leads to. Otherwise, this is one company trying to win brownie points with a ridiculously stupid publicity stunt while mostly everyone else carries on as usual or confronts uncomfortable associations with their history. To say it's bad or worse as government censorship is a knee-jerk, "slippery slope" reaction argument th
Re: (Score:2)
Why, it's almost as if he's advocating that the country embrace socialism. /s
Re: (Score:2)
UMMMMMMM you made a rather cuntish [slashdot.org] statement earlier this year which is extremely #triggering, so I'm going to post your personal information on the internet and throw a brick through your mother's window for raising a total piece of shit like you. My many followers on twitter will signal boost this and contact your employer, demanding you are fired from your job, and we will contact your landlord as well and have you kicked out of your house, shitlord.
That train of thought is what the grandparent is talking about. Modern-day lynch mobs where someone says the wrong thing and they take their rage out on them for no reason other than to fulfill their fantasy of doling out completely misguided justice. There are people addicted to causing destruction upon people's lives who will actively look for shit like that. Being shown the door is when a forum, chatroom, or other privately-owned place says "We don't want you here. Leave."
Stop the cowardice (Score:5, Informative)
Was Epic going to lose customers over this? No, they weren't. Nobody was going to stop playing because the game had cop cars in it.
Is Epic going to gain any customers doing this? No, they aren't. Nobody is going to start playing a game because cop cars were removed from it. At least nobody sane.
What does a company show about itself when it takes action like this? That they have no artistic integrity. That they are ruled by fear. That they are making decisions about their games based on assumptions about what might offend people who aren't their customers.
I have no respect for such behavior.
Re: (Score:2)
I doubt they did this for their customers. They probably did it to satisfy activist employees/management, which has become a widespread phenomenon across corporate America.
I've never conceived a generalized corporate response like what you're now seeing was even possible. In many cases you have companies putting messages on their websites and social media which directly alienate huge portions of their customer base.
Re: (Score:2)
A big flaw in your argument is that you're assuming they're doing this out of fear. What if it's just what they want to do? Are you against individual freedoms? You're just pissed because you don't agree with them.
A big flaw in your argument is that you're posting as AC.
And so (Score:2)
The developer wasn't trying to make a "political statement," according to a WSJ source — rather, it was trying to be "sensitive about the issues" players are dealing with
I'm fine with them being sensitive, but this statement is ludicrous. It's all politics when dealing with large numbers of people.
Re: (Score:2)
The mere statement "it's not politics" is politics.
Re: (Score:2)
Patreon made a political statement.
Pale Moon disagreed with that political statement, so therefore distanced themselves from Patreon.
Therefore, Pale Moon is making a political statement.
Of course, you don't need logic; just read the thing you linked, where Pale Moon explains, their political reasons for their decision.
Re: (Score:2)
I will admit... (Score:2)
Friggin' imbeciles. (Score:2)
When Being Sensitive IS a Political Statement (Score:2)
"The developer wasn't trying to make a "political statement," according to a WSJ source — rather, it was trying to be "sensitive about the issues" players are dealing with..."
Were that true, they would remove weaponry so that everyone who has been affected by such violence.
Weekly NYC Shootings Soar 358% Over Last Year (Score:2)
NYPD is disbanding its plain-cloths division [nbcnewyork.com].
If you own property or a business in a big city it may be time to sell.
Stand up to the damn mob already (Score:4, Insightful)
It's time to stand up to the damn mob already. Cancel culture has moved from canceling people from their jobs and companies from their income to canceling our heritage, history and culture itself. Future historians will look at these times no differently than we looked at the burning of books and other historical artifacts.
The crazy dial has been cranked up to 11. They've cancelled tv shows like COPS and even seriously talked about cancelling Paw Patrol which is a toddlers cartoon.
I have nothing against 1st person shooters, it's just a video game - so why are they embracing this madness? Now a video game where you shoot people is worried about the depiction of cops in the game? Seriously, think about that. It's okay to pretend to murder each other, but not okay to have a virtual cop car. How the hell does that make sense?
Get a grip, get over it. Back to reality. This anti-cop attitude isn't resulting in a summer of love. It's emboldening robberies, rapes, arson, shootings and murders.
https://spdblotter.seattle.gov... [seattle.gov]
https://www.faithwire.com/2020... [faithwire.com]
https://news.yahoo.com/seattle... [yahoo.com]
https://www.fox9.com/news/more... [fox9.com]
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sorry your post is a bit garbled. All I can read is...
everybody...of course...more than happy....China, Venezuela...
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
They are going about erasing the USA as a country. They are Marxists / Socialists / Communists that intend to overthrow the government of the United States and replace it with a communist dictatorship, where they foolishly believe everything will be "equal" and "good". Ha. We had a lack of police once before, during reconstruction, and what did we get? The KKK.
They want to bring back slavery, only this time the slavery of the rich, who they intend to steal 90% of their earnings and use i
Re:In more important news (Score:4, Insightful)
It should not surprise anyone if MLK statues get targeted text by these hoodlums, since he did not support violent tactics. He understood why riots can occur, but he didn't support them.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
He was starting to accept more of that kind of response and was starting to get hooked up with Malcolm X which is why they killed them both. Can't have black people making a meaningful response to white supremacists, can we?
Re: (Score:3)
He only agreed to be photographed with Malcom X after the latter renounced his violent ways in his deathbed.
What are you talking about? MLK and Malcolm X were only in one photograph together, on the steps of Capital Hill in 1964, and they certainly didn't agree with each other on the role of violent protest at that point. And Malcolm X couldn't have renounced his violent ways nor have been photographed on his deathbed; he had no deathbed. He was shot 21 times just before giving a talk in 1965, and was dead before he got to the hospital.
Rot in hell, you lying shitbag.
I'm not sure "lying shitbag" is a fair assessment of drinkypoo. While I
Re: (Score:2)
He called them Negroes?! KILL HIM!
Re: (Score:3)
I have to agree. Whatever your position is on the BLM protests, this move by Epic just shows that they're your typical spineless, greedy corporation. They don't really care about the issue at all, their only concern is what move will cost them the least money.
Re:Now the real question is (Score:4, Interesting)
There already is the game Riot [riotgame.org], where you can play either the side of protesters or police.
From the reviews I remember, it should be a good game, though I haven't played it yet myself.
Though out of the 4 current main campaigns, three are European, and one African. I wonder if there will be an American extension?