Dozens of Women in Gaming Speak Out About Sexism and Harassment (nytimes.com) 262
More than 70 people in the gaming industry, most of them women, have come forward with allegations of gender-based discrimination, harassment and sexual assault since Friday. They have shared their stories in statements posted to Twitter, YouTube, Twitch and the blogging platform TwitLonger. From a report: The outpouring of stories from competitive gamers and streamers, who broadcast their gameplay on platforms like Twitch for money, led to the resignation of the C.E.O. of a prominent talent management company for streamers and a moment of reflection for an industry that has often contended with sexism, bullying and allegations of abuse. Already, the response has been a far cry from Gamergate in 2014, when women faced threats of death and sexual assault for critiquing the industry's male-dominated, sexist culture. Now, some are optimistic that real change could come.
Gamers began sharing their stories after a Twitter user who posts as Hollowtide tweeted about an unnamed "top" player of the online game Destiny on Friday night, referring to the person as a "scum lord." Three female streamers, JewelsVerne, SheSnaps and SchviftyFive, saw the post and decided to come forward about their experiences with the gamer in question, who is known online both as Lono and SayNoToRage. The women posted their allegations, including nonconsensual touching, propositioning for sex and harassment, on Twitter using their streamer handles.
Gamers began sharing their stories after a Twitter user who posts as Hollowtide tweeted about an unnamed "top" player of the online game Destiny on Friday night, referring to the person as a "scum lord." Three female streamers, JewelsVerne, SheSnaps and SchviftyFive, saw the post and decided to come forward about their experiences with the gamer in question, who is known online both as Lono and SayNoToRage. The women posted their allegations, including nonconsensual touching, propositioning for sex and harassment, on Twitter using their streamer handles.
I predict (Score:2, Insightful)
The comments will be a total shit show.
Re: I predict (Score:2)
Thanks for the self-fulfilling prophecy!
Predict something better the next time, please.
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Re: I predict (Score:2)
In their defense, msmash started it.
Alec Holowka committed suicide. (Score:2, Insightful)
The media needs to be more careful when handling this sorts of stories.
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Not just a woman, but the woman whose affair with a journalist sparked Gamergate. Which should make you question the media narrative (as illustrated in the summary above) surrounding that whole event.
Rob
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These allegations are made in the media _exactly_ because the media is not careful. If there was enough substance and proof to the allegations, going to the police would work fine. But there is not. It is difficult to say how many of the allegations are true, how many are vastly inflated and how many are straight lies. But the media does not care. They will happily destroy the alleged evildoers whether they are guilty or not. The court system is a lot more careful and even has penalties for false accusation
Good luck. (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, some are optimistic that real change could come.
I guess we can hope, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm a male and I can't even stand the way people are treated online, especially online gaming. Being continuously raged at by some shit-eating teenager doesn't do it for me, I avoid mutli-player gaming because of it. I'm not trying to downplay these women's issues, I'm saying I get it. I choose to not participate, they are choosing to fight back. Good on them.
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It's better to have a community where good sportsmanship is expected and encouraged, and not one driven by division and exclusion.
What happened to sportsmanship? It's not something you hear about these days.
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This is far more serious than just some random foul mouthed kid in an online game. This is the people in charge, the bosses, the people supposed to be helping streamers develop, abusing their power.
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Online PvP gaming, where the P stands for purse, as gamers by publisher supplied cheats, not to win but to make all the people they beat miserable, trying to fuck up their gaming with pay to win advantges. Personally I found that environment to be quite toxic by it's nature and avoid it, it does attract large numbers of psychopaths and narciccists and makes for quite a bad experience.
I have found over the decades, the greater the PvP element in a co-op game the worse the gamers it attracts. Nothing but PvP
From MsMash? (Score:2, Interesting)
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The summary very clearly states that they posted their allegations of this sort of in-person harassment on Twitter.
Not that the incidents actually occurred on Twitter.
Re:From MsMash? (Score:4, Informative)
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And then you'd be laughed out of court. "But your honor, I, uh... I didn't actually read the defense's motion to admit evidence."
Oh look, it's this campaign again. (Score:2, Informative)
Right after midsummer, as usual.
what is this trash? (Score:3, Insightful)
I looked at the article thinking that this was a legitimate complaint from women employed by game studios or private industry where such behavior is inexcusable and it may be possible to make a change. No. We're talking about streamers and "competitive gamers" (whatever the fuck that is) who are out amongst the unwashed masses.
Sorry, but you're on your own. Welcome to one of the most toxic communities on Earth, forged in the firey pits of raging hormones, hammered by the unassailable wall of great distances and pseudo-anonymity, and set by the inherent insecurities of heavy competition and limited rewards. And you think it's just because you're a woman that you're put down. You really haven't been paying attention.
Sorry girls, you're on your own. That's not a safe space for literally anyone at all, and you're deluding yourself if you think you're changing it.
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I don't really see why that matters. They're not signing up to the 'rape threat and sexual assault' competitive gaming scene, they're just trying to play video games for money.
The problem is exactly that we think that this is somehow an acceptable space for bad behaviour towards women. It's not. Why are those somehow a part of the culture? Why should it be? What value does it bring?
Maybe we can just...not? I've been a competitive swimmer and cyclist for decades now, and cycling especially can get heated bec
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eSports are a thing now, welcome to the 21st century. It's a multi billion dollar industry, as is streaming. People do it as a career and make decent money from it.
It's highly organised, it's not just individuals on their own.
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Video games are a multibillion dollar industry (~$11B), competitive gaming is well under $1B, about $700M assuming you include all of the streaming that isn't actually competitive gaming, just streaming about gaming (competitive or otherwise, including how to beat angry birds).
Regardless, if it's organized and contracts are signed, these women can hire lawyers. Otherwise they are limited by the much lower bar of criminal law, and for the record you can get the police to hunt down rape texts, I've helped my
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Competitive is different from abusive. Harassment in the the online world is not that different from harassment in the physical world. There is no reason to tolerate female competitors being treated any differently from male competitors.
Aggressive play *in the game* is fine, but that is different from out of game harassment.
What excuse is there for harassing women in games? How does their gender change how they play?
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and "competitive gamers" (whatever the fuck that is)
I think we've figured out all we need to know about your grasp of the online gaming world.
Sorry, but you're on your own. Welcome to one of the most toxic communities on Earth
I'm curious where you draw the line. I mean you seem to acknowledge there's a real problem but couldn't be fucked even giving verbal support to resolving it. What next, walk past someone being raped in the street because it was their fault for coming out in a skit? Where's your moral threshold for giving a shit and wanting to improve the world?
Or have you simply been ground down into weakness over the years, powerless
Letâ(TM)s see this fixed! (Score:3, Funny)
With so many reports we will surely see police reports, followed by prosecutions. Maybe some civil suits filed?
Any day now...
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Right because those things have had good results in the past.
Re: Letâ(TM)s see this fixed! (Score:2)
The odds of a conviction are substantially improved when going to the police as opposed to reporting this several years later on social media.
The police: for all your crime reporting needs.
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With so many reports we will surely see police reports, followed by prosecutions. Maybe some civil suits filed?
Any day now...
If you read TFA you'd understand why people would feel sharing their stories would achieve more than filing a police report or attempting a civil suit with a body that doesn't give a fuck and is powerless to stop it.
No seriously read TFA and then come back and tell us what you think a police report would achieve in any of the situations mentioned.
Re: Letâ(TM)s see this fixed! (Score:2)
Reports of assault in the document can be reported. That doesnâ(TM)t mean all will result in prosecutions or convictions, but itâ(TM)s better than this public kangaroo court.
Some of those stories certainly couldnâ(TM)t be brought to the police on account of the claimant being a joke. Consider this: âoe The exec prod would get me wasted weekly to take advantage with sexual interactions. As far as I know no intercourse, but he has told others we did.â
Heâ(TM)d get her wasted each
EVERYBODY gets harassed in games (Score:2)
File Police Reports. Done. (Score:3)
I have lost much of my patience for people who claim to be wronged/harmed by others online and then take to the media/social media to find a solution.
If you have been wronged or harmed, file a police report and alert the offender of the report being filed. Provide a case number. Tell the person that if they continue with the harassment, you will follow up on the report. And then do so.
Nothing changes without taking ACTUAL action. "Calling out" is not actual action. It's a PR attack that can be defended with appropriate counter-PR.
Report the criminal. Prosecute the criminal. Punish the criminal. Advertise that the laws regarding this crime is being enforced.
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If you have been wronged or harmed, file a police report and alert the offender of the report being filed. Provide a case number. Tell the person that if they continue with the harassment, you will follow up on the report. And then do so.
I have a better idea. Why not just shout at a wall. No seriously in what fucking country anywhere in the entire world do you think a police report would achieve anything. No let me go one better, in what fucking country anywhere in the world would an officer of any police force even take you seriously enough to file this complaint.
Nothing changes without taking ACTUAL action.
That I agree with. Now maybe if you came up with actual action these people could take we could work towards solving the problem. Right now you've proposed not only a solution tha
Lol (Score:5, Insightful)
The last line is the best "our space" says everything.
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Real woke people are those who can both recognize and read past any narrative. They've had to discard something they "were raised with" or "were taught", but never as an act of empty rebellion or contrarian impulse. They've gone through the pain of intellectual defeat, and come out stronger on the other side. They meticulously construct, constantly evaluate, and tweak their methodology of observing and understanding the world. They are supremely suspicious of any filter that may trap them in a bubble.
Re: Lol (Score:2)
Straw man of the year.
Re: Lol (Score:2)
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If green-skinned orcs are offensive, I guess it is only a matter of time before they come after Star Trek because Klingons.
SJWs ruin everything.
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Re:Lol (Score:5, Insightful)
You might ask yourself what you're doing wrong if "hatred is thrown at you, blindly, from almost all angles".
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You might ask yourself what you're doing wrong if "hatred is thrown at you, blindly, from almost all angles".
Being born with the wrong GENDER and to the wrong RACE seems to do the trick just fine.
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Could you elaborate on your point? Or is your point just that "People don't like you because of your attitude"? Because if that's the case, why aren't these people getting to know me, personally? They're not. Instead, they're out in the streets breaking shit, all in the name of, "I'm mad, bro!"
I play Rocket League. I love that game. However, it's VERY common for someone to quit a match, simply because their score is less than the other team's. It's very very common. So common that the company that h
Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts https://www.goodreads.com/book... [goodreads.com]
"Why do people dodge responsibility when things fall apart? Why the parade of public figures unable to own up when they screw up? Why the endless marital quarrels over who is right? Why can we see hypocrisy in others but not in ourselves? Are we all liars? Or do we really believe the stories we tell?
Renowned social psychologists Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson take a compelling look into how the brain is wired for self-justification. When we make mistakes, we must calm the cognitive dissonance that jars our feelings of self-worth. And so we create fictions that absolve us of responsibility, restoring our belief that we are smart, moral, and right -- a belief that often keeps us on a course that is dumb, immoral, and wrong.
Backed by years of research and delivered in lively, energetic prose, Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) offers a fascinating explanation of self-deception [including via progressive desensitization] -- how it works, the harm it can cause, and how we can overcome it."
Reminded of it by the last line in your comment...
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Great read. Thanks for posting.
The native American Indian's first thought of the white men, after meeting some of them (so I hear): "They have a mental illness that's taken them from their own Nature." As I understand it, the first native American Indians thought... the white men were KIND OF a bunch of retards.
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And none of what you said has any relevancy to the post you replied to.
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A room full of pissed off women/men/trans/gays/blacks/racists, etc... cannot come together in a manner that's effective, in any other way than violent clashes. Good on you regular, straight men that just sit thru all that's going on today.
Remember when a bunch of (mostly) black football players organized a silent protest? A bunch of regular, straight men lost their damn minds and threatened to fire all of them. It sounds like minorities' ability to organize non-violently isn't the problem.
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Remember when a bunch of (mostly) black football players organized a silent protest?
Of course I do, it was AWESOME! But they weren't raging. They were calmly protesting and very mentally aware of what they were doing.
You can't prove that those guys that lost their minds were straight. Also, no one said minorioties.
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You mean the ball-chasing millionaires deciding to use company time in order to turn an entertainment venue into their own personal political platform? Sure.
Which minority are you talking about that doesn't have a problem in being able to organize non violently? The millionaire ball chasers, or the one that consistently burns and loots major urban areas every time they get outraged over a perceived attack on their tribe by another?
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Don't come into our space, and then demand to completely turn it around.
If your space includes routine rape and death threats, it needs to be turned around. Whether or not you want it.
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If your space includes routine rape and death threats, it needs to be turned around. Whether or not you want it.
Well it doesn't. So far the 'infractions of shitty behavior' include, shitty hookups, bad dates, drunken interactions between two parties, women trying to climb the ladder by using their sexuality and targeting successful men to do so - then are shocked when those men pursue them. Various cases of "date regret" aka I didn't like them, or they wouldn't give me what I want. Haven't seen any positive sexual encounter, then it was 'rape' complaints yet. At least some of the guys are smart enough this time t
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Well it doesn't.
Then why'd you feel the need to post about it on a story about routine rape and death threats?
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Then why'd you feel the need to post about it on a story about routine rape and death threats?
Is there a reason then you made a comment about a group of people pushing an agenda so hard you should be able to smell it through your monitor?
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Is there a reason you keep changing the subject?
Why'd you feel the need to defend your group against routine rape and death threats when your group doesn't do that?
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Who's changing the subject? You already answered my point. In fact I answered your point too. So what's your stake in this game, exactly what about my subculture that you don't adhere or subscribe to, do you feel the need to meddle in?
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You always dismiss allegations of sexual harassment as bad dates and women trying to sleep their way to the top. You did it with Weinstein too, even after he had been convicted.
And then you complain that the same complaints keep coming up, having resisted doing anything about the problem.
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You always dismiss allegations of sexual harassment as bad dates and women trying to sleep their way to the top.
Those aren't my words, that's the words of those women - who made the accusations. Wonder why so many lawyered up and hard?
You did it with Weinstein too, even after he had been convicted.
Strange, I don't seem to remember giving a shit one way or the other except that the 'evidence' used was so lightweight that in any other criminal case it would have been laughed out. That does bother me, because it shows that there is a preference in the judicial system.
And then you complain that the same complaints keep coming up, having resisted doing anything about the problem.
Here's the funny thing about a subculture, nobody requires you to join it. It sure is strange that it's all of a s
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You're a lousy person. I hope for the sake of those around you that you get around to recognizing it some day.
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There can be some fine lines between harassment and trash talk. You may not like trash talk, but it's really not up to you on how people communicate with each other.
Of course, some people can be annoying, but that's why there are block and mute features in most games these days. When you go beyond that, sure, you're getting into harassment territory. But there can be some pretty dark language and it can be okay.
The gaming space is not filled with routine rape and death threats. It certainly happens, but i
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Are you a female gamer that you can say that authoritatively? There are clear reasons why my niece has a masculine screen name, her classmate's sister had an in-game stalker show up at the door.
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Please stop with the petty sexism. A person's opinion is not dependent on their gender.
Those things are a risk of doing anything that involves interacting with the general public. I can't comment on her screen name. Stalker showing up at the door has nothing to do with trash talking, so what point are you trying to make in regards to what I wrote? Sucks for her friend's sister, but that's not the norm.
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And people actually believe that's how qualified immunity works. Damn...I should have been a propagandist, I could make millions from gullible idiots.
Re: Welcome to the club! (Score:4, Interesting)
Read this but I'll paste the relevant parts:
An appellate court panel protected a Georgia deputy who aimed at an unthreatening dog but shot a 10-year-old child instead because no prior case matched those “unique” facts, though one judge protested that no “competent” officer would shoot at a dog surrounded by kids.
An appeals court ruled that officers might have been “morally wrong” but didn’t have “clear notice” that theft violates the Fourth Amendment in blocking a California homeowner’s suit against police for allegedly stealing $225,000 in cash and rare coins while executing a search warrant.
An appellate court dismissed a homeless man’s suit against police in Tennessee who sicced a dog on him after he surrendered while sitting with his hands in the air because raising his hands wasn’t enough to put them on notice that releasing the dog on him was unlawful.
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Source https://www.newsday.com/news/n... [newsday.com].
Re: Welcome to the club! (Score:2)
None of those are examples of qualified immunity.
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Every one of those is a case where a court granted qualified immunity to the perpetrators. The cases were all taken to the Supreme Court who just refused to hear them. The dissenter was Justice Clarence Thomas who's been wanting to get the SCOTUS to take up the issue of qualified immunity for some time now.
You're correct that they *shouldn't* be cases of qualified immunity since none of them were related to officers legitimately performing their actual duties, but judges let officers off the hook in every
Re: Welcome to the club! (Score:2)
Never mind, you're correct. The way I read his examples it seemed like none of them were civil suits against the cop in question (and the article refuses to load for me due to my as blocker). Agreed, these are all horrible judgements made by the courts. They're also outliers. Plenty of cops have been sued, and their immunity waved when it was clear that their actions were criminal.
It's certainly fair to argue that the concept of qualified immunity may need to be better defined to eliminate these kinds o
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You're correct that they *shouldn't* be cases of qualified immunity since none of them were related to officers legitimately performing their actual duties, but judges let officers off the hook in every case shown above. It's sickening.
This is pretty good. They're in fact not cases of qualified immunity though, as you pointed out correctly the failure of the judicial system to hold responsibility however is the biggest problem. The failure of the justice system is the biggie, now ask the tough question. Why didn't the judges do so? The answer is likely because it would bring their own misdeeds forward.
Now keep in mind that in the US DA's and Judges at many levels are elected official, so where does that ultimately responsibility lay?
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So you're going to pretend that police haven't, by and large, been above the law? You think they don't routinely plant evidence, murder, and, yes, rape, with impunity?
Sorry, kid, but reality doesn't conform to your prime time TV vision of the police. We've seen time and time again that law enforcement is not only willing to protect their own when they commit even the most heinous crimes, but are actively encouraged to abuse their authority!
Their time is over. The people are no longer willing to stand id
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Rhetorical questions, by definition, do not require an answer. Pretending for the moment that they were ordinary questions, why would my volunteering with the police would change your answer to any of them?
(I can't, btw, as our local police force does not accept volunteers. It's just one more way they keep themselves distant from the public, which they consider the enemy. I did once participate in an F.O.P. fund drive, a mistake I won't make again.)
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I personally like this one: "White police kill more unarmed blacks." It's not true, black police officers do. Black police officers are 20x more likely to racially profile. And white police officers are 10x more likely to put themselves in harms way by holstering their gun when dealing with a violent black offender. It's also like this one: 13% of the population in the US black...and what percentages of violent crime, murder do they account for? I also like this one: Why are groups like BLM protesting
P.P.S.: (Score:2)
Ookay. Firefox automatically snuck an old subject line in there, just because I wrote "P.S.:" and pressed Tab. Great job, Mozila! Now everyone will assume I assumed this would be moderated Flamebait, and moderate accordingly. Great fucking job! --.--
For the record: I was neither baiting nor trolling. Not that anyone will care. ... Sigh. :/
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That's how autofill has worked in every browser for years. Are you new to computers?
Re: P.S.: Flamebait? (Score:3)
female need for harmony
Hah. Clearly you don't know many women.
Hierarchies exist just as much between women as they do between men, and women are anything but "harmonious" in building and enforcing those hierarchies. They don't fit well into male hierarchies because we value different things.
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Hierarchies exist just as much between women as they do between men
Not really. Go to any school playground anywhere in the world and you will see the same thing: Many small groups of two or three girls and one big group of boys.
The girls form small exclusive cliques because they are unable to manage hierarchies. They try to manage through consensus and disagreement over even minor issues can be seen as a crisis and cause the group to fragment even more.
The boys form one big group with a clear hierarchy. Disagreements are resolved by the leader making a decision and the
Re: P.S.: Flamebait? (Score:5, Insightful)
What world do you live in?
Both boys and girls form cliques.
Women and girls can and do form large, structured, hierarchies. There are numerous examples in business and leisure.
Boys do not generally form large groups around a single leader nor do they have a tendency to tuck tail and lick the boots of your mythical 'boy in charge'.
Large groups of boys, girls, women, and men all have competing factions and a complex mix of formal and informal hierarchies.
Yes, boys and girls compete with each other in different ways, as do women and men, but they do not ultimately form different types of social hierarchies.
There is quite a bit of research here under the banner of industrial and organizational psychology.
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So groups of gamers are pretty much "Lord of the Flies"?
Lord of the Flies is a work of fiction. People often use it as an example, rather than using a real event, precisely because it is not representative of how people really behave in a crisis. If they did, there would be real-world examples.
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Oh, and that competitive environment is an essential part of male development and social dynamics. As it is how hierarchies of respect, and strong, mentally stable leaders are formed.
Is that why the high school jocks are most likely to become leaders in industry and community? Oh wait, that's almost never the case! You're living in a fantasy land, kid. (If you're interested in an academic take, have a look at Burns and Bass.)
It turns out that real men don't feel the need to wave their dick around, drive big trucks or fancy sports cars, or parade around with assault rifles.
Real leaders tend to have a lot of self-confidence, empathy, and a genuine concern for others. It should come as
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You can't cancel what you didn't subscribe to, and you can't stop New York from being important. Sorry, Barney.
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Not the NYT, they're telling you what to believe. I'll give you an example. You know that part about "inappropriate touching" and all that which launched all this? Full story: Guy asks permission twice, to touch her and she agreed to it. Reasoning: Hover hand is just sad, pathetically sad at that.
Full story is stupidly easy to find, including witnesses on the guys behalf...who are also women if that helps.
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The NYTimes is an excellent source of news, thanks. I'll keep my subscription.
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You think it's nonsense because it is nonsense. In their weird right-wing world, actual evidence is deeply distrusted so they just make shit up and repeat it until it's something 'everyone knows'.
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NYTimes is second to none when it comes to the quality of their crossword puzzles. I've given up thinking they were very good at much else.
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The Times has become a pure propaganda outlet
It's been a propaganda outlet since at least the 1950s when Project Mockingbird suborned its editors and most of the leading writers. It serves the interests of whoever is in power, which obviously isn't you or I.
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All you've done is show you need reading comprehension classes.
Re: Females Control Access Males Pursue (Score:2)
You need a lot more biology classes. Even if we limit the discussion to animals closely related to humans, we still find matriarchal species.
Even ignoring the incredible rarity of such social structures, I'm not sure why you think it has anything at all to do with what he said. He wasn't commenting on social organisation; he was commenting on mating habits.
NeverNudes unite! (Score:2)
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Yes it's systemic, otherwise those organisations would have delt with it by now. Same as the cops, it's not one bad apple, others knew and didn't act, the systems in place that were supposed to handle this didn't work.
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You read it right... Victor Sengbe (a black man) hung the so called "nooses" to exercise with and have fun and it is being investigated like it is a hate crime.
... It turns out that the "noose" in Bubba Wallace's garage has been there for several months to help with closing the door.
Know how I know you don't know the difference between a noose and a bowline?
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Do you know how I know you are a fucking moron?
There is a reason those words are in quotes you fucking moron!
And people wonder why folks can't have conversations around here without them getting stupid!