Cyberpunk 2077 Includes Visual Effects Designed To Trigger Epileptic Seizure (gameinformer.com) 171
Macthorpe writes: Game Informer journalist Liana Ruppert has recounted her experiences with "braindances" (abbreviated as "BD's) in Cyberpunk 2077 that led to her experiencing a grand mal epileptic seizure. From her article and PSA:
"When 'suiting up' for a BD, especially with Judy, V will be given a headset that is meant to onset the instance. The headset fits over both eyes and features a rapid onslaught of white and red blinking LEDs, much like the actual device neurologists use in real life to trigger a seizure when they need to trigger one for diagnosis purposes. If not modeled off of the IRL design, it's a very spot-on coincidence and because of that this is one aspect that I would personally advise you to avoid altogether. When you notice the headset come into play, look away completely or close your eyes. This is a pattern of lights designed to trigger an epileptic episode and it very much did that in my own personal playthrough."
Cyberpunk 2077 does not include a standard boilerplate epilepsy warning on launch, and instead places this in the games EULA. Regardless, one wonders why a game of this nature needs to simulate an IPS diagnostic device this accurately when the average player won't know the difference, and when it will cause severe harm to some players without warning? UPDATE: Developer CD Projekt Red has responded with its plans on addressing the concerns. In a tweet, CDPR wrote that it's "working on adding a separate warning in the game." The development team is also looking into a permanent solution it will implement "as soon as possible." Hopefully, that will include a way to turn off strobing effects.
"When 'suiting up' for a BD, especially with Judy, V will be given a headset that is meant to onset the instance. The headset fits over both eyes and features a rapid onslaught of white and red blinking LEDs, much like the actual device neurologists use in real life to trigger a seizure when they need to trigger one for diagnosis purposes. If not modeled off of the IRL design, it's a very spot-on coincidence and because of that this is one aspect that I would personally advise you to avoid altogether. When you notice the headset come into play, look away completely or close your eyes. This is a pattern of lights designed to trigger an epileptic episode and it very much did that in my own personal playthrough."
Cyberpunk 2077 does not include a standard boilerplate epilepsy warning on launch, and instead places this in the games EULA. Regardless, one wonders why a game of this nature needs to simulate an IPS diagnostic device this accurately when the average player won't know the difference, and when it will cause severe harm to some players without warning? UPDATE: Developer CD Projekt Red has responded with its plans on addressing the concerns. In a tweet, CDPR wrote that it's "working on adding a separate warning in the game." The development team is also looking into a permanent solution it will implement "as soon as possible." Hopefully, that will include a way to turn off strobing effects.
Buy now, buy buy buy! Unlocks tomorrow! (Score:3)
I ticked the "Disable Advertising" box but these posts about Cyperpunk 2077 keep coming up.
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How ironic. I didn't check that box and I got a story about intentional triggering epileptics.
Maybe your computer is broken.
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I got advertisements disguised as news about crunch time (yesterday) and some video game FX that may trigger seizures (today) for a game that releases tomorrow. Both of these happen all the time with video games, not exactly news. The developer says they will add an additional warning for now and fix the blikenlights in a future patch. Intentional? It's a big budget game so it seems more likely they hired an FX artist who was just a bit too good at their job.
Retro dystopia (Score:2)
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I jusr re-read that book a bit ago (jts before covid started) and I was surprised how accurate the description of the state of the world was. Exclude the obvious SF/Fantasy part with the cuniform magic spells and you can't help but notice that the description of the VR already trumped by "Second life" a few years later. At the moment, we are implementing the corporate dystopia that was pictured by Snowcrash.
Wait, what? "Designed" to?? (Score:2)
Like that would mean that causing epileptic seizures was an explicit intent, and I highly doubt that to be case.
While the impact of certain visual effects on people who are prone to epileptic seizures is widely known and some people decide to still put them into movies or video games regardless of that, accompanied with suitable warnings to that effect of course, that's an entirely different thing from saying that they actually deliberately designed those effects to trigger seizures in a vulnerable segme
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Perhaps some pea-brained game designer saw the actual neurological diagnostic device, but didn't understand the reasons for its use. Just said "Kewl! I'll put that in my next game!"
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Yes. It may be stupidity or gross neglect and not design, but all of these options have in common that we are far in the field of legal liability.
All plausible options are closer to "by design" than "by chance".
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Legally, there is a greater burden placed upon designers of consumer goods (and this includes video games) than standards applied to a 'reasonable person'. That's why some design fields require things like professional licenses. So the "by chance" claim isn't a legal defense. Good luck proving intent for the "by design" claim. But that's not necessary, as these people are held to a higher standard.
Designed to trigger epileptic episodes? (Score:2)
Fuck off, games supposed journalism. The gaming media has been piling on this game because of identitarian politics being triggered by an earlier advert they felt insulted transgendered people. They also howled over a âdid you assume my genderâ(TM) tweet.
This is Joker all over again, played out in video games. These supposed journalists want this game to fail, but it will most likely be a runaway hit for normal people.
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It was modeled directly on a device that's used to induce seizures for medical reasons. Headline is perfectly accurate.
Fix the game, not the warning. (Score:5, Insightful)
Photosensitive epilepsy isn't usually triggered in susceptible people by any old flashing light - it needs particular frequencies or patterns. The technology already exists to screen for these, and responsible companies use it. Probably only minor tweaks are required to make this game safe for everyone, with no adverse effect on the gaming experience. It's a $60 game from a multi billion dollar company, not some indie title hacked together over the weekend in the developer's bedroom. Stop pissing about and just fix it.
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The technology already exists to screen for these, and responsible companies use it.
Can you provide an example of such a tool? It makes sense that one would exist, but I've never heard of it. Seems like a company providing these services would jump on news like this to promote themselves, but I've never seen that happen either.
Looking for Clarification on Title (Score:2)
Did the developer actually intend to induce seizures in their customers or did they include graphics that emulate a device that was designed to induce seizures?
The differentiation is important. The first is malicious and the second is ignorant. The differentiation matters.
Exaggerated headline... (Score:2)
clickbait title.. (Score:2)
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"Designed means it was done on purpose, that it is its main purpose in the game and cdproject knew what effects it would have."
You mean in case they just don't want the money of people suffering from epilepsy?
As the author seems to suggest.
Re: click bait title (Score:5, Informative)
The visual effects are designed to cause a seizure. CDPR copied a medical device that introduces seizures and put it in the game.
The device/effect has the intent, not necessarily the company.
Re: click bait title (Score:5, Insightful)
So if I yell fire in a movie theater I get in trouble, but if I play a recording of someone yelling fire while I'm in a movie theater, my motive is unclear?
Re: click bait title (Score:4)
To be honest I don't think they did it deliberately, I think one of their art guys Googled for something that goes on your head and that would look cool and put it in the game. I mean, someone of the 10 people that decision would have gone through should have picked it up, but they're only working with a budget of £100m dollars or so, far too little to take valuable to make sure your game doesn't nearly kill people.
I'm being facetious but I do think it was incompetence not malice, because for this to be malice is almost cartoonishly evil.
Also sincere congratulations for being able to parse sentences better than most people who've commented so far
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They may face liability on the grounds that they SHOULD have known that a visual simulation of a device that uses visual input to cause a seizure would likely cause a seizure.
Doubly so since there is an awareness in the industry of the potential for strobing effects to cause a seizure and the cyberpunk genre's references to the same.
Alternatively, perhaps someone on the project was really ticked off about a death march.
Re: click bait title (Score:2)
I agree with you. Ignorance doesn't prevent this from being negligence, especially in an industry which is acutely aware of the existence of epilepsy.
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It's a little surprising that when spending $317 million developing a game they didn't think to check this. It's done routinely in the TV and movie industries.
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Your sig is disturbingly appropriate for this comments section
Re: click bait title (Score:2)
You've found me out, I did it solely to tank CDPR because I hate the Witcher, bwahahaha etc
(I don't have epilepsy but I do have issues with photosensitivity that would prevent me playing the game)
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Given that the device's whole purpose is to create a visual effect that triggers a seizure, it's at least negligence to even attempt to accurately simulate the visual effect and not prominently warn users of the risk.
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my motive is unclear
Well yes your motive is unclear. Were you trying to cause a panic while skirting the rules, or did you play a video which completely unintentionally had someone yelling fire in it?
Please tell us what you were trying to do.
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It sounds like at least one person (the designer) knew what the device does, and for legal purposes that one person IS the company.
If I copied a real gun when making my toy gun and included all the same functionality, I should not be surprised when people are mad that my toy gun kills people. And even if my boss didn't know my toy gun was designed to kill people, that doesn't absolve the company of liability.
Re: click bait title (Score:2)
No argument here. This is definitely, at bare minimum, grossly negligent.
Re:SJWs (Score:4, Insightful)
Epileptics are now SJWs. Do I get to call you an SJW for your apparent learning disability?
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" SJW's *are* not SJW's "
That statement is likely to cause a seizure
Re:SJWs (Score:5, Insightful)
Epileptics are now SJWs. Do I get to call you an SJW for your apparent learning disability?
The millions or so fucks donning their armor and swords and gearing up for war about this... without being asked... are not epileptics... but they are definitely SJW's
Meanwhile, blacks still know how to get a drivers license regardless of the millions of fucks that donned their armor saying that they didnt because racism is hard
The issue of Voter ID laws requiring a drivers license isn't whether someone knows how to get a drivers license, the issue is not everyone can get a drivers license for various reasons (i.e. medical, lack of discretionary funding, etc) and that they typically cost more and require more investment (drivers training, etc.) than another form of government ID would. In other words, it's a way to prevent poor people from voting. The side effect (possibly deliberate) is that it affects certain races more than others due to demographics.
If you're going to require ID to register to vote and you are truly only concerned about voter fraud, then there should be a free ID option. Otherwise you end up disenfranchising specific groups. And it's quite telling that most Voter ID laws do not offer a free ID option.
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There are ID cards offered by virtually all states.
Here is the California one:
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/... [ca.gov].
You can also get a fee discount, or a completely free one based on your circumstances.
Even Texas has one: https://www.dps.texas.gov/Driv... [texas.gov]
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Man, SJWs really hate this game. It must be pretty damn good.
Translation: "I lost an argument and want a rematch with a different opponent!"
Re:"Designed to trigger" implies intent (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sure they did not intend on causing seizures, they simply advise people susceptible to not play, which is the right thing to do.
From the summary:
Cyberpunk 2077 does not include a standard boilerplate epilepsy warning on launch, and instead places this in the games EULA
When was the last time *you* read the EULA of a game you bought?
"This is a pattern of lights designed to trigger" (Score:2, Informative)
To be fair though the author here is saying that the light show was literally designed to effect people with epilepsy. That's either completely unhelpful melodrama or just straight up lying.
Sure, a game should game with a blatant disclaimer but ecliptics are really taking big risks playing games in general.
Re:"This is a pattern of lights designed to trigge (Score:5, Interesting)
It's neither, it's just the truth. You could at least read the summary - CDPR copied a medical device that induces epileptic seizures and put it in the game.
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"It's just the truth" seems a bit strong. The excerpt (it's not a summary) presents it as speculation, not ironclad fact.
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I think "speculation" is in fact incredibly weak to describe the massive coincidence it would have to be to exactly reproduce the light patterns and colours that the device uses. I'm quite happy to stick by my guns and say that it's factual, because it feels like the chances of accidentally doing it are somewhere between getting hit by lightning and winning the lottery.
Either way, whether you think "factual" is too strong or not, it's neither "unhelpful melodrame or straight up lying", so the point stands.
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No there isn't. If they copied a real life pattern that induces seizures then they were in fact willfully giving epileptics seizures. I seriously doubt some one would go to the trouble of getting this strobing pattern without finding out what it does.
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Wiki says:
Liana Ruppert, a journalist for Game Informer who has photosensitive epilepsy, experienced a grand mal seizure while reviewing the game days before its release. The seizure was triggered by the game's "braindance" sequence, which contains red and white flashing lights that reportedly resemble the patterns produced by medical devices used to intentionally trigger seizures.[179] After criticism from epilepsy advocacy groups that the game's health and safety disclaimers were insufficient, CD Projekt
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> When was the last time *you* read the EULA of a game you bought?
I want to get my money's worth in entertainment value. So I do every side mission, play every difficulty setting, find every easter egg. I consider the EULA an easter egg.
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If I was susceptible to the flashing lights, I would try to find out if the game contains them before buying/playing it.
Just like if I was allergic to something, I would actually look/ask if the food I'm about to eat is poison to me. I would definitely not rely on (lack of) a very big warning in bold letters.
In this case, sure I would have either searched the EULA for "epilepsy" or "flashing lights" or asked someone (tech support of the developer etc) who should know about it.
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In this case, sure I would have either searched the EULA for "epilepsy"
Bullshit. You're only saying this because you just read that they put that warning in the EULA. Otherwise you wouldn't have thought of reading it.
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I may not have though of reading the EULA, but I would have asked someone who should know (say, tech support), googled it or asked a friend who had the same game.
Here's the thing - I think that if I am likely to get hurt more than someone else, then no matter who would at fault, I should be more careful. For example- if I was crossing a street when the light was green and got run hit by a car, the driver of that car would be at fault for hitting me. He may even go to prison for it. On the other hand, this i
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That's not the point. The presence or absence of it is irrelevant. The simple fact is that a light pattern that is known to induce seizures was deliberately used with little thought as to how it can harm people, that's the difference. This is like handing out gingerbread men and not telling anyone you put shredded nuts in it.
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And that's the problem with standard boilerplate warnings. If they become standard, they will be ignored.
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When was the last time *you* read the EULA of a game you bought?
Right? I'm just seeing this as "game designed to showcase a futuristic dystopia helps step us deeper into the present dystopia".
Re:"Designed to trigger" implies intent (Score:5, Insightful)
So you're saying that epileptics should just assume that all games will be seizure inducing and .. what.. just not play them? Just deal with it when it happens and stop being such a snowflake? Suck it up and not be epileptic in the first place?
How is a person to know a) that a game has these seizure inducing flashing lights and b) when they are going to happen? Seems to me that without an obvious warning either on the package or on launch the only way anyone would know is after it's already happened.
And in any case the post I was responding to said that they *did* warn users and I was simply refuting that erroneous statement.
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How is a person to know...
A depressingly large number of people, perhaps without thinking, equate assumption to knowledge, particularly when it's their own. Also an attitude that "common sense" (as defined by them) is some sort of universal pattern, understood by all.
On the topic of the parent post, do we have a name for the logical fallacy committed by claiming that something was obviously easily understood, when it was not, due to (until proven otherwise) unintentional obfuscation, a la 'beware of the leopard' in h2g2? Resembles
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Isn't that just an appeal to false authority (the false authority being oneself)?
Re:"Designed to trigger" implies intent (Score:4, Informative)
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Right.. replace video gaming and ask if someone who is pone to seizes should have mountain climbing as a hobby.
It sucks being disabled and I am all for reasonable accommodations but that does not mean physical limitations etc just vanish
If one has a problem with bright lights... (Score:3, Insightful)
If one has a problem with rapidly changing bright lights shown in ones face maybe one should find a new hobby aside from gaming. It seems like tempting disaster.
Yes pretty much (Score:2)
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How is a person to know
Do research. If something can kill you (while it is harmless for the vast majority of people) you should put some work into figuring out whether a particular game (or food in case of allergies) contains the thing that can be deadly to you.
Remember, people can make mistakes as well, maybe they just forgot to include a warning big enough so you would notice it immediately. You would not want to dies because of someone else's stupid mistake.
While I am not allergic (as far as I know) etc, I do this for equipmen
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"what.. just not play them? " Umm...yes. Look, I'm sure it sucks to be prone to this. I have always found that certain combinations of refresh rates in some video games(I remember Stalker being a real problem for me) make me nauseous in under 5 minutes. I know feeling nauseous and having an attack aren't the same thing but we all have our crosses to bear.
Oh no a certain game at a certain point made you uncomfortable? Using your own logic, I guess you should just avoid all video games forever.
What about people that have been mugged - might find some sequences disturbing. Should there be a boilerplate for that as well? Once almost drowned in a bathtub as a kid? Had a traumatic car accident?
While scenes like those might be emotionally disturbing to those that have experienced them for real, that's a poor analogy. It's not that cyberpunk shows someone having a seizure that might be traumatic to someone with epilepsy. The equivalent to your examples would be if the player were mugged/drowned/in car accident FOR REAL as part of the game.
Just watch the trailers and apply a little common sense.
and if those seizure i
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So you're saying that epileptics should just assume that all games will be seizure inducing and .. what.. just not play them?
Why not? Specifically, why not assume all computer games, which are at the most basic level just flashing lights, are going to have lights flashing in a pattern or frequency that will cause a seizure?
Just deal with it when it happens and stop being such a snowflake?
Why not? Specifically, one is looking at a computer game which is at its most basic level nothing more than flashing lights? One should know it is a How is a developer to know that a game has lights flashing in a pattern that induces seizures? Hire only epileptic QA and beta testers? How will that work with no
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Re: "Designed to trigger" implies intent (Score:5, Insightful)
They copied an IPS diagnostic device which in medical settings is designed to trigger seizures.
The intent of the device is to cause the seizure, not necessarily CDPR (though incompetence isn't much better than malice here)
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Are you a neurologist, or are you just regurgitating nonsense from someone else who is also not a doctor?
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What if they provide the warning, but it's in microscopic print buried in a wall of text they know that nobody actually reads?
Re:"Designed to trigger" implies intent (Score:5, Funny)
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Write it in blinking text on a blinking background so that nobody can miss it.
But what if that blinking text then triggers the seizure?
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To me, it's a question of why the designers chose flashing lights in real life. It's a stupid design decision, and just a few moments of thought would lead one to question the decision and provide some reasonably alternative. At this point, pretty much everyone knows (or should know) to avoid showering the player with flashing lights in visual mediums (look up "Pokemon shock"). For the record, that episode was well over 20 years ago.
In the same way, videogame designers have (mostly) learned not to rely s
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You have to draw a line somewhere between inclusion and world design. Cyberpunk's world is a flashy clusterfuck and it's ok to want the world design to show that. Not every game is for every gamer. They just need to own their choices and be upfront. Make a point of the epilepsy warnings so people can't make a mistake. Make the game you want to make, but y
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They just need to own their choices and be upfront. Make a point of the epilepsy warnings so people can't make a mistake.
I agree, but here we run into the next problem. With probably even Animal Crossing putting up epilepsy warnings, should they add a "and this time we really mean it" clause? How large would that have to be printed?
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Accessibility is cool and all, and some of the colorblind modes I've seen are pretty neat, etc. Adjusting text speed, size, and whatnot. ...but then at some point you eventually reach a level of "accessibility" where the game basically just plays itself and it ceases to be a game. It's like selling an "accessible" swimming pool with all the water removed for people who can't swim. It ceases to be a swimming pool, defeating its purpose.
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To use your swimming pool analogy, I'd say it's like offering kickboards or floaties. Practiced swimmers don't need to use those aids. Making an "easy mode" doesn't affect you *at all* when you're playing on normal or hard mode.
I've never understood why people feel like it diminishes their fun if others can play an easier mode of the game. I mean, most games give you specific rewards for the harder game modes as well. It's fine to reward players with trophies or gamer points for finishing on Normal or H
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Idiots eat Obvious Warnings for breakfast.
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Except they hid the warning in the EULA. Not very fair. Nintendo does better, even for games that don't actually cause seizures.
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Yes, this is an absolute statement, but just because I'm rounding 99.9% up to 100%.
Re:Non-story (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Non-story (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Non-story (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Non-story (Score:4, Informative)
There is a Preview button that you need to press before you can hit submit.
It's not enough to guarantee that you'll catch dropped words or typos, but it sure as hell should be enough to guarantee that you'll catch a mistake with the blockquote tags!
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Re:Non-story (Score:5, Informative)
Every single epileptic who would refrain from playing this game because they saw a warning already knows, without a written warning, that they shouldn't play this game. Yes, this is an absolute statement, but just because I'm rounding 99.9% up to 100%.
The problem isn't them not having the warning, it's them using something designed to intentionally trigger siezures. Guaranteed a bunch of people who have never had one before will have one triggered by this.
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That's not great, that's failing, too. Just into the opposite direction.
Have a permanent warning up for something that isn't there and it will be ignored. So there's no difference between putting a warning in front of everything and no warning at all.
We got written up in safety inspection for not removing a laser warning sign after removing the laser experiment.
Re: Non-story (Score:3)
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Didn't know that this game literally transforms your monitor into goggles. Cool. Good to know.
They should patent this magical technology that can alter matter in such a dramatic way. I imagine they'd earn a lot of more money doing that than selling games.
Don't you now have a certain Gamespot reviewer who admitted to basically not playing most of the game before reviewing it on podcast to defend next? Game journo twitter sphere appeared to be split between these two equally meritorious causes.
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Thank you, I tried to lower myself to your level. Judging by your reaction, it would appear I was successful.
Re:Non-story (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure.
Except there wasn't an epilepsyy warning so...
Speaking as someone who has photosensitive epilepsy, you cant just trigger these with a regular strobe (Well in rare occasions maybe, but usually not). It has to be a pretty specific combination of flashing colours. SOMEBODY at CDPR *knew* this and decided to implement it without the warning. And thats borderline attempted manslaughter., because sometimes people die from grand mal seizures.
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Re:Non-story (Score:5, Insightful)
theres a reason most judges consider EULAs unenforcable, its because nobody reads them and even if they do, are unlikely to understand them (Remember, a contract is the agreement, not the paper, and intentionally obscure fineprint that contradicts the understanding of the parties generally isnt enforcable).
And its the same reason a judge isn't going to be particularly impressed at that. In fact it might make it worse as the company knew there was a problem but failed to prominently warn users.
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As in a way that common sense tells you NOT to play a game where someone tells you he is going to kill you and then attacks you with a knife or a gun?
No. Common sense tells you that all this stuff is SIMULATED in a video game and can't actually harm you.
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This is more like "Guy walks past house with Beware of Dog sign, dog jumps over fence and bites him".
Re:Non-story (Score:4, Insightful)
That is a pretty stupid attitude. What if you didn't know you had epilepsy? Mayo Clinic says you can develop it later in life.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/dis... [mayoclinic.org].
And what if you walked into a room where another family member was playing it, or it was playing in a store, and it triggered a fit in you?
It is mind-bogglingly irresponsible to intentionally program a system to display scenes that will knowingly cause an epileptic fit. I though voluntary guidelines had removed this but it is still a thing. TBH if you are an epileptic you must be constantly worried about navigating the minefield of contemporary media.
I think programmers and artists have ethical responsibilities and this is one of them. It's a matter of health. Is your story so important that you must create things which are dangerous to people's health? Incidentally there are plenty of dystopian stories about VR headsets that have been maliciously programmed; I actually recently saw a movie and an animated TV series that both use that premise.
There have been famous lawsuits about this such as with Nintendo.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.go... [nih.gov]
https://www.nintendolife.com/n... [nintendolife.com]
https://www.nintendoworldrepor... [nintendoworldreport.com]
Re: Non-story (Score:2)
It's definitely a conspiracy, there's no such thing as review embargoes and it's not like CDPR have a history of DMCA claiming assist people who break street dates on their games or anything
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I agree. I hope the city takes this position when I propose my kinetic sculpture for the city park. Named "Sniper's nest."