After You Die, Your Steam Games Will Be Stuck in Legal Limbo 125
As Valve's Steam gaming platform approaches its 21st anniversary, aging PC gamers are grappling with the question of what will happen to their extensive digital game collections after they pass away. Recent inquiries to Steam support have highlighted the platform's policy that accounts and games are non-transferable, even through a last will and testament. While some potential loopholes exist, such as sharing account information with descendants or bequeathing a physical device with games installed, the legal ownership of these digital assets remains murky.
You own nothing (Score:5, Informative)
The buy button is a big fat lie you own nothing that your hard earned money paid for
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You own possible entertainment for life*.
*unless the servers are taken offline, or the game is pulled from the platform, or it becomes unplayable because technology advances, or...
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They still download and play just fine, though.
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Right - I don't understand what is 'murky' here. Non-transferable is non-transferable. We are after all talking about a license contract NOT a physical good.
The contract is the thing you are buying. It says something in it like 'the purchaser'. I suppose in theory the contract can be inherited and viewed as property. Its just that in terms of the intellectual property its not operative because the new owner is not the party described in the contract. I guess they are free to read and enjoy their histori
Re:You own nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
The contract is the thing you are buying.
If they advertised it as a cancellable (at their whim) license, there would be a lot fewer people objecting.
But when they call it a sale, the law pretty strongly suggests it's just that, especially where copyrighted items are concerned (one time purchase, no fixed term means the right of first sale comes into play).
It's the false advertising that people object to.
Re: You own nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
They call it the Steam Store, not the Steam Leasing Office.
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A lease must be for a specified amount of time.
Though these licenses expire at your death, like all licenses, that is not due to it being a specified time.
There is a such thing as a "lifetime lease", but it's only informally called that. Legally, it's a purchase that reverts back to the seller.
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Think of it this way.
If you bought a Toyota and ran a few red lights, and then Toyota decided that you are a danger to the public and disabled your car - permanently - would you be losing your shit?
This is what these gaming companies are doing. Some censor text so not to offend other users, but they will still ban you for life.
It's their own feature that does not work, but you pay for their incompetence.
Even if your speech violated their terms of service, its not a simple matter.
Once you bought the game and
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Once you bought the game and money has exchanged hands, its no longer just their product. There is now consideration.
I think maybe you're alluding to First Sale Doctrine, here?
Unfortunately, this goes back to what you agree to.
If you are purchasing a copy of something, you indeed do have a legal right to that copy, and to sell it.
If you purchased a license to use a copy, then you have no such right- period (17 U.S. Code S. 109).
It doesn't matter what their rat lawyers put in Terms of Service. Money has changed hands and they have no right to unilaterally change the agreement.
Sadly, no matter how much you want it to be- that is simply not the case if you agreed to allow them to. And you did.
It's a shitty situation, but it's one that we are agreeing to with every "p
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Sadly its a scientifically correct statement.
Not really.
I pointed out the absurdity, I clearly understand the direction you're going with it.
The equivalence principle does says mass is energy, not that mass and matter are the same thing.
Since energy-mass equivalence is a simple fact of life, and energy can neither be created nor destroyed.. software is a physical product.
A common mistake among those with a partial or self education on the matter.
Mass is a characteristic of matter, but it is not matter.
Just because stupid people write laws and argue them in court, does not make them right.
Trying to use the equivalence principle to argue that the power that turns on a light is the same as the light is exactly why people like you do not write laws ;)
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You should focus less on your position, and more on your reading comprehension.
Start here. [byjus.com] for the classical distinction (this still holds in a relativistic world, it's just different.)
If you can handle it, then go here. [wikipedia.org]
I'll summarize the "refutation" here (pointing out that you're wrong, and misunderstand physical concepts):
It is true that mass and energy are equivalent. It is not true that mass and matter are. There's a reason we have invariant
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You said, and I quote:
As much as someone wishes it to be weightless, it does have mass, and it is a physical product.
You conflated mass with physicality. This is dumb,and I demonstrated how it was.
Your failure is now complete.
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But when they call it a sale, the law pretty strongly suggests it's just that, especially where copyrighted items are concerned (one time purchase, no fixed term means the right of first sale comes into play).
Sadly, this is patently false.
There is no First Sale Doctrine for the sale of a license.
See: 17 U.S. Code S. 109.
I wish that weren't the case, but it is.
If it weren't, they'd have been class actioned long before now.
It's the false advertising that people object to.
It's not false. I'll grant you that it could be called misleading, since most people don't know what they're buying.
I suppose that comes down to, "does the seller of the license have the duty to educate the purchaser as to what it really is, and if so, does a clickwrap license cover that?
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There is no First Sale Doctrine for the sale of a license.
The question is whether it is a license, or a sale of goods. Case law says that, where copyrighted material is concerned, if there is a one time fee with an indefinite term of use, it is a sale of goods, and first sale doctrine does, indeed apply.
Especially when they call it a sale.
As I said, it is the false advertising that people object to.
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The question is whether it is a license, or a sale of goods. Case law says that, where copyrighted material is concerned, if there is a one time fee with an indefinite term of use, it is a sale of goods, and first sale doctrine does, indeed apply.
There is no question.
The subscriber agreement for Steam spells out exactly what it is you're purchasing. It's a license.
if there is a one time fee with an indefinite term of use, it is a sale of goods
This is incorrect.
Intellectual property is licensed.
You can sell a copy, or you can license it. Nothing automatically converts a license into a sale of the copy.
To the contrary, US law makes it very easy for computer software to never accidentally be considered a sale (I referenced it above)
will best buy take back an opened game if you say (Score:3)
will best buy take back an opened game if you say no to the EULA?
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You bought that copy. That copy is yours.
The license to use that copy is separate from the copy, as fucked up as that is.
You are free to sell that copy to someone else that might agree to the EULA.
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Buy it on gog.com (Score:2)
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They not only reserve the right to terminate your license to any GOG Content you may have purchased, they also specifically prohibit you from transferring it to anyone else- including the GOG Content that you downloaded (which from their standpoint is not yours, and sharing is copyright infringement)
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These trash companies like Ubisoft should be sued into oblivion.
They have taken it upon themselves to be the judge, jury, and the executioner - constantly banning people for "toxicity".
You bought the game but you can't play it, even on self-hosted servers online.
I would absolutely love to go balls-deep against Ubisoft if there is a class action lawsuit.
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You bought the game but you can't play it
No, you didn't. And that's the problem.
You want a law to save you from your inability to not enter into predatory contracts.
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and when an judge orders it in probate? (Score:3)
and when an judge orders it in probate?
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Re:and when an judge orders it in probate? (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is why they need to stop claiming that you "purchased a game".
In my will I was going to require that my heir complete my Dark Souls 3 platinum trophy in order to receive my money.
So the cat gets the entire estate (Score:2)
Which is why they need to stop claiming that you "purchased a game". In my will I was going to require that my heir complete my Dark Souls 3 platinum trophy in order to receive my money.
I guess the probate judge will just have to give your entire estate to your cat.
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Bah, my cat can't even get past the tutorial!
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You purchased an access, like a season pass at the gym, amusement park, music hall. You purchased and own the tickets, and you pass the piece of paper to your heirs, but not the access they grant to the show (if the tickets are nominative).
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Tickets won't pass if they are nominative, as written in my original comment.
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They quite clearly call it a subscription.
As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers or purchase certain Hardware (as defined below) on Steam. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, software associated with Hardware and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as "Content and Services;" the rights to access and/or use any Content and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."
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That's why frozen pizzas have an expiration date printed on the packaging in most countries.
best by dates do not cut the food off from being u (Score:2)
best by dates do not cut the food off from being used.
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Correct, you discovered imperfection in analogy.
Are you sure you want to lay it at my feet and not of the one who actually made the analogy though?
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That's on me. I could freeze dry the pizza or encase it in resin. The point is that the pizza belongs to me subject only to the limitations of reality, not man.
In the case of a steam game, you haven't purchased anything.
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The key point about purchasing an item, is that I can give that pizza to my friend, or to a stranger in the street, and no DRM pizza vendor can stop me. If they try to sue me over this the law is on my side.
With Steam, it's murky. Because even Valve is not clear about your rights here. The story here is all based upon a response to a query, not clear and unambiguous rules that they wrote down in advance. Did anyone remember reading any phrases about not being able to bequeath your games or account in you
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Last I checked, pirates have a terrible dental plan.
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That's a common misconception. It is the British who has a terrible dental plan.
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With Steam, it's murky.
No, it's not.
Because even Valve is not clear about your rights here.
They are very clear. You have almost none [steampowered.com].
The story here is all based upon a response to a query, not clear and unambiguous rules that they wrote down in advance.
The rules are quite unambiguous.
As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers or purchase certain Hardware (as defined below) on Steam. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, software associated with Hardware and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as "Content and Services;" the rights to access and/or use any Content and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."
Your Account, including any information pertaining to it (e.g.: contact information, billing information, Account history and Subscriptions, etc.), is strictly personal. You may therefore not sell or charge others for the right to use your Account, or otherwise transfer your Account, nor may you sell, charge others for the right to use, or transfer any Subscriptions other than if and as expressly permitted by this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use) or as otherwise specifically permitted by Valve.
You are entitled to use the Content and Services for your own personal use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Content and Services to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Content and Services to others without the prior written consent of Valve, except to the extent expressly permitted elsewhere in this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use); (ii) host or provide matchmaking services for the Content and Services or emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Valve in any network feature of the Content and Services, through protocol emulation, tunneling, modifying or adding components to the Content and Services, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose including, but not limited to network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks or as part of content aggregation networks, websites or services, without the prior written consent of Valve; or (iii) exploit the Content and Services or any of its parts for any commercial purpose, except as expressly permitted elsewhere in this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use).
It's a lot of words, but it's very clear what it's saying.
Did anyone remember reading any phrases about not being able to bequeath your games or account in your will?
Of course not. For the same reason you didn't read any phrases about not being able to put them in a trust for your nephew either.
They disallow all transfers, unless specifically allowed. This means they don't need to list every disallowed transfer.
On the other hand, I can bequeath all the games I purchased with GOG.
No, you cannot.
You can illegally give them your copy, and it'll work due to the lack of DRM.
GOG still specifically
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On the other hand, I can bequeath all the games I purchased with GOG.
Stop saying that. It is false.
There aren't any restriction on those games beyond that games' own licenses.
Incorrect. GOG specifically disallows the transfer of all GOG Content purchased.
I can also give those games to a stranger or friend, there is no account that needs to be transferred, no prohibition against transfer is in any of the licenses.
You know, ignorance- not knowing a thing- is forgivable.
But making shit up? Not so much.
Quit spreading your fucking misinformation, asshat.
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Hmm, interesting, I hadn't read license in a while. A game that I buy in a store (or bought, no one has boxed games unless they also have some DRM as well) than I can transfer that - regardless of license - because the law in many countries including the US allows that. The law essentially overrides the license (back to the old shrink wrap license deal, or whether you can waive rights via clicking a button). The snag with many games is that they're digitally tied to an account, have DRM, have an install c
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I'm not trying to disparage GOG- Among a bunch of shitheads, they're by far the least shitheady.
Pragmatically speaking, there is nothing to prevent transferring a DRM free game though. The company could sue you, if they ever found out, but I doubt they'd try to find out or bother with the hassle. The government won't care, not even the DMCA because nothing was hacked, decrypted, subverted, etc.
I agree entirely.
And I think most likely, GOG knows this and is fine with it.
I don't think they have any desire to go after anyone for infringement. I think they just exist in an ecosystem where no IP owner is ever going to grant them the right to sell copies rather than licenses, and as such, they play within those bounds. Therefor, you
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This post was a mistake. I had already replied to you in a much friendlier tone, and like a dipshit, I thought this was a separate post from you.
That's 100% my bad.
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While you're at it, make sure to stop saying you purchased your groceries.
That's not a good comparison. When I buy my groceries, ownership of those groceries transfers to me. I can eat them, sell them, smash them, let them rot, give them away, or preserve them to the extent that they can be preserved. They become mine the moment I pay for them, and can't legally be taken from me.
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That's not a good comparison. When I buy my groceries, ownership of those groceries transfers to me. I can eat them, sell them, smash them, let them rot, give them away, or preserve them to the extent that they can be preserved. They become mine the moment I pay for them, and can't legally be taken from me.
No one can legally take them away, but they can and almost certainly will expire. So it's perfectly comparable to your rights over digital content expiring at some point.
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In other words, nothing lasts forever so therefore it's all the same?
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If the Grocers frequently bust into deceased people's houses to take back frozen pizzas then you'd have a really insightful point here.
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Valve has yet to bust into a single deceased person's home to take back their copy of their software.
Hell- they don't even disable it.
They just explicitly say your license is non-transferable.
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when the judge
sees paid in full and not rented?
the account lists
Purchases
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You didn't purchase a copy of the software, you purchased a license to use a copy of the software.
There's nothing strange about that, software distribution has worked like this for a very long time. It used to be enforced by dongles. Now it's enforced by connections over the internet.
property law vs copyright law (Score:2)
can an home builder say you just have the Copyright to the home and you can't pass it to your heirs?
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Of course, you'd be stupid to take such a deal.
And now you understand where we are with this whole thing.
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Use the loopholes (Score:3)
Provide a sheet with a list of accounts and passwords as part of your will. Attach phone codes and recovery codes as well. Let
Your heirs sort is out outside probate. I have POA forms and instructions for my executor to impersonate me with outfits like the power company etc to shut down services like water gas etc. itâ(TM)s easier and it works plus no one will be able to complain
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It was super easy to impersonate my father after he passed away. No one asked any questions.
Email account exclusively for banking .... (Score:3)
I expect similar behavior regarding any email accounts mentioned in the "will". Especially given paperless banking. Which leads to the notion of having one email account, m
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How long do you have to wait for the official death cert? By what methods will a company accept that death cert?
In my experience, impersonation was much faster and easier.
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How long do you have to wait for the official death cert?
I'm going to guess a couple of weeks. However, I informed the bank immediately and they did whatever it is they do to secure everything. A couple weeks later I visited with the official death cert and official trust doc and the successor trustee was entered into the bank records, the accounts status returned to normal.
By what methods will a company accept that death cert?
Local companies, you walk in and show them. When you order death certs from the county you order as many official copies as you need for the remote companies, mailing them to the company, whic
Re: Email account exclusively for banking .... (Score:2)
If banks or financial institutions receive a death certificate they will immediately freeze the accounts until probate is complete. Even if assets are in a trust, there are formalities that can take up to 2 years before anything is distributed. I have friends who are going through that hell now. Basically estate administrators milking everything they can by requesting for example college transcripts and diploma copies
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If banks or financial institutions receive a death certificate they will immediately freeze the accounts until probate is complete. Even if assets are in a trust, there are formalities that can take up to 2 years before anything is distributed.
Not in my experience in California. At least for a simple inexpensive living trust. Home and bank accounts had been transferred to the trust upon formation a decade earlier. After the death, as the named successor trustee I contacted the attorney that had created the trust and he gave me instructions. Get multiple copies of death certificate, will need to mail some of them to remote institutions, can do a walk-in for locals, don't cash any extra social security or pension checks that arrive, have a home app
I don't get it (Score:5, Funny)
Can't you just re-spawn, or start a new game?
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Funny)
No, it's Hardcore mode only.
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That's why I play Rogue Legacy ( https://store.steampowered.com... [steampowered.com] ). Sure I'm dead, but my descendants will continue the good fight.
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I'll be too busy playing NG+ to worry about all your NG noobs!
Keep the ownership ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Same place I keep my guns.
Trust vs LLC (Score:2)
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Goodby, Unky! (Score:2)
"Here's your grand uncle's computer. I understand some games may not play due to licensing to him that can't be inherited."
"Thanks, mom."
"I'm going to make dinner, macaroni and cheese with hot dogs in it."
"Cool."
To himself, "Fuck the games, where's his porn!"
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Awww takes me back to the old days when porn lived on the computer. But really, the porn is going to have the same problem... it's all streamed.
Treat it like guns... (Score:2)
In the gun world there are some workarounds for future restrictions on transfers of NFA firearms. One of these is for the firearms to be owned by a trust, and ownership of the trust be transferred from generation to generation. Are software licensing trusts a new niche industry for estate planning?
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You could probably put your games in a trust but the legal fees will be substantial. You'd need a lot of games to make it worth the effort to pass on a bunch of old games vs buying them at the old game discount store, assuming anyone even wanted them.
I'm pretty sure no one wants my copy of civ 2.
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I've seen NFA trusts for $100, with the caveat that I'm in no way whatsoever qualified to judge their quality or utility.
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I'm going to make a wild assumption that gun trusts are the same as any other in which case a cheap trust would be over a grand. A decent one about 3k and (not true for games) a complex trust with multiple beneficiaries, properties, etc etc could be 20k, 30k, or more.
If uncontested the template $150 gun/game trust is probably fine for most people but since it's a template there will be very limited flexibility.
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Yes, I agree and that's what I'm saying about the template cheapo trusts. They are probably ok for your games. Unlikely anyone will challenge it for some old games. But if you have assets worth fighting over, pay a lawyer to make sure it says what you want it to say with no ambiguity and adheres to all legal standards for your location.
I wouldn't put my house in a $150 trust I got online....
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The licenses are non-transferable, even to a trust.
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1) the trust can but the games in the first place
2) there is no process at the company to check on licensee deaths
3) the games are licensed to an email address or login. Those can be transferred to a trust without a change of licensee.
So, yes, they can be. But no one would. This is all theoretical.
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1) the trust can but the games in the first place
Fair.
2) there is no process at the company to check on licensee deaths
Very true. That's why the suggested workaround is to just give your user/pass to your heirs. Seems reasonable to me.
Of course, they'll technically be infringing on copyright, but meh- I doubt anyone thinks they'll go after them.
3) the games are licensed to an email address or login. Those can be transferred to a trust without a change of licensee.
They're licensed to a person. You cannot license something to an email address or login.
The email address and/or login may identify you, but it is not you, and it cannot have rights conferred upon it.
In the odd situation where a trust were to have purchased the games, that tr
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So, yes, they can be. But no one would. This is all theoretical.
Also- I interpreted your "put your games into a trust" as an attempt to transfer them into it, which you cannot.
I didn't account for having the trust purchase them directly, which shouldn't be problematic, even if the trust can't let anyone play the games (legally)
Fools and their money... (Score:2)
People thought they were just selling out on the DRM front and in exchange steam becomes the installation media. But no, turns out you don't even own a copy of the game at all.
So I recognize I'm basically renting (Score:3)
But on average I paid around 8 bucks per game because I buy cheap on sales so I can't get to upset. I've put more money into pinball machines at sandwich shops then I have most of my steam games.
Why even tell Steam ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Steam can't tell if you're alive, all they need is a username/password. Put that in your will, your heirs can just continue playing your games forever.
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Of course, Valve does reserve the right to decide you're dead after some amount of time, or to try to find out if you are at any time, and then cancel it, but I don't think they're actually interested in that.
Virtual family member (Score:2)
Way back in the day, customer support was sometimes tied to a particular name -- SCO did this, for example -- a small company I worked for always used a fake employee name -- someone who c/would never leave... This solved a lot of problems, though we had to pretend to be that person when whenever we called.
I never pay full price (Score:2)
I never pay full price for anything on steam for the reason that they don't treat it as ownership.
Same for any of these services.
If you're dumb enough to do so, you're the reason why they have user-hostile policies like these.
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Most people buying games aren't concerned about whether it will still work in 10 years, let alone intergenerationally.
well (Score:2)
Well, there goes any hope of me leaving SOMETHING to my kids after I'm gone.
what about EU consumer protection law as in the us (Score:2)
what about EU consumer protection law as in the usa you are fucked on stuff like this. But in the EU consumer have good rights.
Even Mexico is better.
https://www.usatoday.com/story... [usatoday.com]
They may have their policy, but... (Score:3)
While some potential loopholes exist, such as sharing account information with descendants or bequeathing
I would say what you have is your Property in the care of a company who is belligerent.
There is in theory a possible solution to that: Create documentation of the asset. Provided you Legally owned that asset, an executor could seek an order signed by a Judge as the method of reassigning the control of that property.
A company does Not have the legal right to refuse to recognize your successor to property you legally owned, BUT You may need a Judge's signature on the order transferring control of that piece of property before they would even take you seriously.
Also, many states will have enacted a version of the Uniform Fiduciary Access to Digital Assets Act [dccouncil.gov].
"(c) A user's direction under subsection (a) or (b) of this section overrides a contrary provision in a terms-of-service agreement that does not require the user to act affirmatively and distinctly from the user's assent to the terms of service. .. ..
"(c) A fiduciary with authority over the property of a decedent, protected individual, principal, or settlor may access any digital asset in which the decedent, protected individual, principal, or settlor had a right or interest and that is not held by a custodian or subject to a terms-of-service agreement.
"(d) A fiduciary acting within the scope of the fiduciary's duties is an authorized user of the property of the decedent, protected individual, principal, or settlor for the purpose of, applicable federal or District computer-fraud and unauthorized-computer-access laws.
"(e) A fiduciary with authority over the tangible, personal property of a decedent, protected individual, principal, or settlor:
"(1) May access the property and any digital asset stored in it; and
"(2) Is an authorized user for the purpose of computer-fraud and unauthorized-computer-access laws.
Anti-Consumer (Score:2)
This is clearly a policy that should be made illegal. Of course it won't be addressed here in the corporate simp states of America. The EU will have to force the hand of these companies trying to use digital ownership as a perpetual income stream.
Legally require transfers (Score:2)
Another thing that grinds my gears regarding these licenses is that if I bought an HD movie license, instead of charging a small upgrade fee to 4k, they charge full price, ergo a 2nd license. I should be able to sell/transfer the original.
All of this is just begging for a class action suit.
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All of this is just begging for a class action suit.
On what grounds?
Do you think you can just sue for anything you like?
The problem with this bullshit, is that it's perfectly legal, and has been done for going on 4 decades.
oooorrrtr (Score:2)
Not if you use ... (Score:2)
... a spoof account with it's own pseudo-persona and own mail-adress. And document that to pass it on accordingly.
I could sell my entire XBox Account with all 62 titles, most them digital, with no sweat at all for me or the buyer. He/she could pick up right where I left off and enjoy all the perks I collected along the years. ... The account even has a gender-neutral gamer tag/name. That happened by chance, I didn't think of that particular detail when I made it, but these days I actually do and see to it
Haunt the server (Score:2)
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Software and Music have been licensed like this for decades, now, and have survived all court challenges.
Of course that could change- or Congress could step in, but I wouldn't hold your breath.