Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Emulation (Games) IOS Apple

Apple Says No To PC Emulators On iOS (theverge.com) 170

Posted by BeauHD from the fickle-decision-making dept.
UPDATE (7/14/2024): Apple has now reversed their decision for UTM SE, and allowed it into their App Store. Slashdot's original story appears below...


An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: Apple might finally allow retro video game emulators on the App Store, but this month, the company rejected submissions of iDOS 3, a new version of the popular DOS emulator, and UTM SE, an app that lets you emulate operating systems like Windows on iOS. In both instances, Apple said the new releases violate guideline 4.7 of the App Review Guidelines, which is the one that allows for retro game emulators. Chaoji Li, the developer of iDOS 3, shared some of Apple's reasoning for the rejection with The Verge. "The app provides emulator functionality but is not emulating a retro game console specifically," according to Apple's notice. "Only emulators of retro game consoles are appropriate per guideline 4.7." "When I asked what changes I should make to be compliant, they had no idea, nor when I asked what a retro game console is," Li said in a blog post. "It's still the same old unreasonable answer along the line of 'we know it when we see it.'"

UTM posted about its rejection on X. "The App Store Review Board determined that 'PC is not a console' regardless of the fact that there are retro Windows / DOS games for the PC that UTM SE can be useful in running," according to the post. UTM also noted that Apple is barring UTM SE from being notarized for third-party app stores because the app apparently violated guideline 2.5.2. That rule states that apps have to be self-contained and can't execute code "which introduces or changes features or functionality of the app, including other apps." Apple typically hasn't allowed just-in-time (JIT) compilation. However, and somewhat confusingly, UTM said that UTM SE doesn't include just-in-time compilation. Additionally, Apple clarified that guideline 4.7, which allows apps to offer "certain software that is not embedded in the binary," is "an exception that only applies to App Store apps" but isn't one that UTM SE qualifies for, UTM said in a follow-up post.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Apple Says No To PC Emulators On iOS More

Apple Says No To PC Emulators On iOS

Comments Filter:

  • Wouldn't want to make phones useful. (Score:3)

    by xack ( 5304745 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:06AM (#64576193)
    Meanwhile the Pinephone and Librem Phone can run real Linux applications. Yes, a real command line on a phone.

    • Re:Wouldn't want to make phones useful. (Score:5, Informative)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:30AM (#64576251) Homepage Journal

      Meanwhile the Pinephone and Librem Phone can run real Linux applications. Yes, a real command line on a phone.

      Step 1: turn on android phone
      Step 2: install termux

      Now you have a real command line like you already had, plus a real linux userland and libraries, and you can run real Linux applications.

      I share your disdain for iOS, though, which could also have a command line if Apple didn't think that would confuse its users. Though, arguably, they are correct. Only a tiny number of people are buying Apple products for technical reasons, and that number is down from the heyday of OSX. Lots of people have left for Linux because Apple keeps breaking stuff.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Bert64 ( 520050 )

          This "ish shell" is a completely fake shell, it's basically a simulation of a linux device.

          MacOS did not have a shell either until version 10.

          • Comment removed based on user account deletion

            • Without a keyboard it's too damned tedious to do anything but the extreme basics.

              A Bluetooth keyboard has entered the discussion.

            • iOS has a few really good network toolboxes which can do such troubleshooting. The one thing that I haven't found is a good wifi hotspot visualizer, otherwise all typical network tools to troubleshoot and do basic testing are available in several handy apps.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Bert64 ( 520050 )

              It's not a shell in a sandbox, it's a completely fake shell - eg if you run the "uname" command it returns "Linux", whereas iOS does not run a Linux kernel at all.
              A shell in a sandbox would behave quite differently.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by iAmWaySmarterThanYou ( 10095012 )

        "This is my rifle. This is my gun. This is for shooting. This is for fun."

        I love my iPhone and iPad. When I want to do real computing I turn on a real computer. These are toys. They're fun. They mostly do what they're supposed to do. Yay, that's it. There are countless options for people who want more. Please leave my toys alone. I do not want to have to administer my phone.

        • I do not have to administer my phone, but I do have the option of doing more complex things with it. Sometimes you only have a shoe and have to hammer a nail with it, and in those cases I am glad nobody is stopping me. I'd always prefer the right tool, but I also prefer to have some option over none.

        • Nobody's forcing you to install any emulator or command line interface on your phone. Even if they were available, guess what, you wouldn't need to install them!

          It's called choice. I know Apple doesn't like it.

        • Yeah, because it would never be useful to have an SSH client on an always-connected device with a VPN client that also happens to be your on-call pager.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

            There are lots of ssh clients in the ios app store.

            You can also install anything you want. You just have to compile it yourself and you can't sell it in Apple's store.

          • My iPhone and iPad have native vpn support. There are ssh clients. What are you talking about? Have you ever owned one?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        Termux is nice. You need to get it from F-droid though, the app-store version is really outdated and did not even work right for me.

  • With the reasoning, could he write a simulator for a PC with Donkey Kong permanently and unremovable on the Floppy Disk drive, all built into the app, so nothing else can run?

    • no, it would be rejected for ip infringement. however if he wrote his own shitty clone of those games and locked it in, then yes, probably.

      • Where does that hostility come from? Obviously such an app would be distributed with permission of the original app developer. Or the original developer licenses the emulator to publish a new money-making version of the app.

        • dude nintendo and the tetris holding company are not going to license these iconic IPs to some rando emulator dev with a shingle out on the app store. it is not 1995. both companies are already successfully monetizing their respective brands and do not need or want the "help".

        • I don't see any hostility.

          retchdog isn't talking about the IP of the app, retchdog was talking about the IP of Tetris or Donkey Kong.

          In fact, a couple of years ago someone made an OS that only ran Tetris (TetrisOS), and it was DMCA'd. And The Tetris Company is notorious for getting Tetris *clones* taken down, even when their IP isn't actually infringed.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Yes. It sounds like he could also write a simulator for a PC but only allow the end user to run games they downloaded. I.e. not provide access to the OS itself.

  • ok then the EU needs to fine apple for this or app (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:16AM (#64576223)

    ok then the EU needs to fine apple for this or apple must allow full side loading with no core fee!

    • ok then the EU needs to fine apple for this ...

      Why? Since when have we been confused about PC vs console. They are historically recognizedmann as different platforms, consoles special purpose for games, PCs general purpose.

      Since 1983 Apple has told told developers not just emulate a text console on Mac, use the native UI. Similarly Apple's App Store requirements have prohibited general purpose OS emulation, SDKs, etc that would allow on board programming and a different UI experience.

      There's nothing new here. There is no real confusion over what i

      • Since when have we been confused about PC vs console.

        I've been confused since my first PC, which used to load the games from a tape recorder and show them on the TV.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by drnb ( 2434720 )

          Since when have we been confused about PC vs console.

          I've been confused since my first PC, which used to load the games from a tape recorder and show them on the TV.

          Well, a Commodore 64 is closer to a modern console than a PC.

          • And a modern console isn't very different from a PC.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by drnb ( 2434720 )

              And a modern console isn't very different from a PC.

              Other than its design and functionality. Similar parts can exist in a general purpose design and a specialized design. That is what we have here. PC, general purpose. Console, gaming.

              • That is what we have here. PC, general purpose. Console, gaming.

                You're confusing "primary usage" with "design and functionality". The primary use of a console is gaming. The design and functionality are virtually identical to a PC.

              • Artificial distinction. The bloody PS3 could run Linux. Until Sony stopped supporting it. And didn't get into any legal trouble for it. Because artificial distinction. And the PS3 was even further away from a PC architecture than most other consoles because of that Cell engine.
      • iPhones are much more like a console than a PC.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by drnb ( 2434720 )

          iPhones are much more like a console than a PC.

          No, they are not. They are absolutely general purpose computers. What makes them different is size. A console is not general purpose, it is limited to games. That is the key here.

          • iPhones are much more like a console than a PC.

            No, they are not. They are absolutely general purpose computers. What makes them different is size. A console is not general purpose, it is limited to games. That is the key here.

            Both are limited to what the maker allows you to run. Both are designed to prevent defeating that (lack of) functionality. That they throw in some general purpose apps does not change that. Sony could allow a browser or an email client for a PS5, but it would still be a console.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by drnb ( 2434720 )

              iPhones are much more like a console than a PC.

              No, they are not. They are absolutely general purpose computers. What makes them different is size. A console is not general purpose, it is limited to games. That is the key here.

              Both are limited to what the maker allows you to run.

              Both PCs and iPhones are designed to allow you to run general purpose applications. Consoles, just games.

              Both are designed to prevent defeating that (lack of) functionality.

              While both Consoles and iPhones restrict what can be installed, the iPhone does not limit the user to gaming. The limitation has more to do with the developer, a registered developer that submitted an app. An app that can fit into many categories, gaming one of the many. And these categories are more for organization in the store, there are few prohibited things on iPhone.

              That they throw in some general purpose apps does not change that.

              Actually that is entirely the di

          • Bullshit artificial distinction. If Apple limited iPhones to games, they would be fucking consoles by your definition.

      • Nobody cares about that.

        What was mentioned was the EU ruling that says Apple can't 1: block third party app stores, and 2: can't decide what can and can't be put on third party app stores since then the store would be run by.... Apple. And they already violated consumer protection laws with not allowing users to install other app stores and products.

        Note that Apple claims they won't allow the developers app to be installed through third party app stores as well as through the Apple app store. The EU is alr

  • An app that can run any code and build an UI on top of it is effectively replacing the operational system interface. This is possible elsewhere primarily in Linux-based "OS"s (Chromebooks vs KDE vs Gnome vs Android vs Tesla car's UIs vs ...) and effectively means, from a user interface and user experience point of view, that you replaced the OS. It's not really virtualization, but it's from the user perspective that would be pretty much the same.

    That seems fair to me. I don't know where the legal side of th

    • An app that can run any code and build an UI on top of it is effectively replacing the operational system interface.

      False. A PC emulator is just an app. It doesn't replace the system UI.

      and effectively means, from a user interface and user experience point of view, that you replaced the OS

      False again. A PC emulator is just an app you run when you want to run some PC software. You will still have to run the OS that is underneath it to get anything done.

      I don't care what the vendor wants. I care what I want. That's why I use Android and not iOS. I can replace stuff with what I want to replace it with. I can choose my own launcher, file manager, etc. If I get a rootable phone I can even replace the system webview, when on iOS you cannot even replace the engine used in the browser when you open it as an app. On iOS, all browsers, and the system webview, are all Safari — the most slowly updated and least featureful of all significant browsers.

      If you choose iOS, you are either demonstrating ignorance or choosing not to have choice. Most people are doing the former since they don't actually understand the issues at hand. Some nerds are doing the latter. I don't know why they would, I guess they don't trust themselves. I for one don't trust any vendor more than I trust me.

      • I trust myself just fine, I just donâ(TM)t care. I donâ(TM)t have Linux installed on my blender, I donâ(TM)t use a jackhammer when a screwdriver will do. I donâ(TM)t think thereâ(TM)s anything wrong at all with the call youâ(TM)ve made, but the things I want to do on my phone are well covered by iOS. Itâ(TM)s a pleasant, easy-to-use system with a great app ecosystem and still-unrivaled integration with other Apple devices. Itâ(TM)s really not any more complicated than

        • The irony of a post proclaiming that iOS is good enough for the basic tasks they want to do but is peppered with â(TM) where every apostrophe should be in a simple forum post is just too delicious.

          • The irony of a post proclaiming that iOS is good enough for the basic tasks they want to do but is peppered with Ã(TM) where every apostrophe should be in a simple forum post is just too delicious.

            Uh huh, Slashdot's flakey text-encoding is sooOOOoo delicious.

          • As annoying as Apple's "smart quotations" crap is, that's not on them. See my signature for why.

          • You are aware that this is Slashdot fucking up his post, running on Linux on a "real" computer?

        • Sure, the apple ecosystem is great.... as long as you are comfortable with throwing a $1000 device that still works in the garbage every 6 years due to planned obsolescence enforced via OTA software updates.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Sique ( 173459 )
            My parents have an Apple Macbook from 2011, and it still works and is used daily. I switched the HD to an SSD, and I upgraded the RAM to 32 GByte, and at one time, the battery had to be replaced, but apart from that, it still works fine.

            • I switched the HD to an SSD, and I upgraded the RAM to 32 GByte

              You won't be doing that again with any of Apple's more recent hardware.

            • And as soon apple heard you did that they put an end to it on all future macbooks

            • So you have managed to keep a Macbook from the era when they built repairable devices alive, by repairing it. Isn't that amazing.

              Now do any of the more recent Macbooks that they've glued the battery into, and soldered the SSD onto the mainboard, while having done their damndest to make sure nobody can ever repair anything without sending it back to them and paying them ridiculous fees to repair, if they don't just declare it "out of support" and tell you to get fucked.

              • The battery is easy enough, I put a new one in the MacBook Pro I'm using now. A little isopropyl alcohol and it comes right out.

                This one is old enough that it's got a replaceable SSD. It also had to be patched to run current Mac OS.

                It really is outrageous that they solder the SSDs now, I don't enjoy soldering enough to want a SMD rework station just to do drive upgrades.

          • Yeah, it's much better to throw $100 device away after a 1 year because there are no longer updates for it, or use it 1 more year without security updates and throw it away then because it is now unusable crap anyway.

        • Sooner or later it's going to be cheaper to have Linux on your blender and write a script that runs it than to pay someone to make a circuit to control it.

      • My phone is a tool, which I use for a few things. Reading books and news, messaging, looking up the occasional bit of information, and taking photos. Perhaps sometimes some other things, like phonecalls or a game, but that is rare.

        I find that for those purposes, Android gets in the way instead of helping me, while iOS ensures these things Just Work.

        If you feel that spending your finite time and energy on fiddling with your phone is worth your while, then more power to you. I don't know why you would. I gues

    • I assume this is why they keep browsers locked down to being Safari skins as well, because as with 90s MS and making IE to kill off Netscape, any layer that can act as an OS can muscle you out of app exclusivity and licensing.

    • An app that can run any code and build an UI on top of it is effectively replacing the operational system interface.

      Please explain the difference between that, and a full-screen game that has it's own UI that doesn't conform to Apple's guidelines because it follows the style of the game.

  • bottom line (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:30AM (#64576249)
    It must be sad being an apple user. Stuck with a vendor that is committed to handicapping the device you purchased for top dollar the moment anything doesn't suit their bottom line.

  • disengeneous (Score:3, Insightful)

    by LazarusQLong ( 5486838 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:36AM (#64576267)
    Li is not being honest here, we all know what a game console is, a 'retro' game console, that is clearly a console for retro games, or conceivably a console with a retro look and feel that plays retro games. So, something that emulates a NES would seem to be acceptable (presuming you either manage to get Nintendo on board with that or you make some small changes that make it so your emulated NS console would not open you up for a lawsuit with Nintendo.)

    I also agree with Apple when he asks them to design the damn thing for him. "Buddy, I ain't doing your work for you", seems to be effectively what they are saying.

    Of course all the anti-Apple fanboi's will now jump on me because, hey as long as Apple is allowed to be in business, those anti-Apple clowns will try to kill it.

    And I don't care and shan't be replying to y'all morons.

    • we all know what a game console is

      For these purposes, it's clearly a computer-based device on which you can run commercially-created software that potentially offers licensing revenue from which Apple can abstract a cut. As opposed to a computer-based device on which you can run your own, or free software with no financial benefit to Apple.

      And "retro" is clearly an abbreviation for retrogressive.

      As you say, obvious to everyone.

    • That is what DOS in an 8086-80386 emulator is today. It's clearly a console for retro games.

    • A game console is a locked down system that only runs software that was preapproved by the hardware maker. That's not a PC, that's a Mac. Installing something that can run any executable code is akin to having your own app store, and Apple isn't having that.

      • come on, you can do better than that. Most game consoles were so well locked down that they only got 'jail breaked' and had linux running on them after they had been out for several years...

        So, locked down? No, not so much, and your statement about macs is 100% wrong, I think you meant iPads and iPhones. not Macs. iPuds and iPhones are indeed locked to an Apple controlled app store, but their gp computers, known colloqually as 'Mac's' are not.

        Macs are general purpose computers that are perfectly capable

    • Of course all the anti-Apple fanboi's will now jump on me because, hey as long as Apple is allowed to be in business, those anti-Apple clowns will try to kill it.

      Yeah, the hyperbole isn't helping, bruh. There's more than enough people around here that aren't demanding Apple shut down or be "killed" and you know that. Most people want them to stop exerting control over devices they no longer own, because Apple sold those devices to people. But, you know, only certain devices - because they make other devices that now run on the same processors, but have far less control exerted on them, because REASONS.

      • I wish I had a machine shed. I remember back when my evil stepfather used to beat me back in the day, because, at 8 years old I didn't know how to run a lathe in his machine shop... but I learnt to (on my own, that bastard never taught me anything but how to take a punch once again, starting at 8).

        Hyperbole? you've never owned a mac, have you? when you own one and say, are stupid enough to let anyone know you do, then you will be ridiculed, insulted and verbally abused by perfect strangers for years on en

        • you've never owned a mac, have you?

          I'm typing this on one right now, and was a certified Apple Solutions Expert for like a decade. So what were you saying again?

          • well, gee, are you familiar with the rabid hate and disgust most winblows/linux users give mac users? It certainly seems you aren't.

    • We all know what the difference between a game console and a general-purpose computer is but I feel like the fact that there's multiple c64 emulators available on iOS suggests that Apple doesn't have an official ruling on where the line between one and the other is. I don't think anyone would boot up Speedscript or GeoWrite in their virtual c64 to get some writing done but maybe a few people like George RR Martin might be all over Wordstar in their virtual MS-DOS machines, and that could be enough to put it

    • > we all know what a game console is, a 'retro' game console

      From the summary:
      > "When I asked what changes I should make to be compliant, they had no idea, nor when I asked what a retro game console is"

      Respectfully, if Apple is unable to articulate what a "retro game console" is, it should not be permitted to say that any particular thing is/is not one.

    • How old does something have to be to qualify as "retro"? Technically, you could say the PS3 is now retro, and with permanent storage, network access, and a proper OS underneath, that machine is much, much more of a PC than an NES.

      Yeah, we all know what a "console" is. It's a locked-down PC that doesn't let you do anything without the manufacturer's permission. You know, just like an iPhone.

  • Do you have to ask permission to breathe also?

  • Well, I have two of the excellent old Apple USB keybords they apparently do not make anymore. But use their _software_? No, thanks.

  • Running arbitrary apps? The horror! (Score:3)

    by omnichad ( 1198475 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:54AM (#64576539) Homepage

    Apple is being disingenuous not telling the developer the real answer. DOS computers can run any executable code. You can install any apps without their app store, and you can sideload without their "Core Technology Fee."

    Anything that takes their cut away is "bad" to them.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by vbdasc ( 146051 )

      Were DOS applications so good that Apple still fears competition from them, 30 years later?

  • If it were up to Apple, abandon-ware wouldn't run at all.

  • I suspect .. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by PPH ( 736903 ) on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @10:44AM (#64576707)

    .. that the rejection of iDOS 3 is due to the fact that it is too much of a general purpose OS emulator. Sure, you could run games on it. But perhaps a lot of other stuff too. An that just upsets out the control freaks in Cupertino.

  • >> "That rule states that apps have to be self-contained and can't execute code which introduces or changes features or functionality of the app, including other apps." ...which means nothing that can run a plugin or script... such as all browsers?

    • Not sure about plugins but IIRC, Apple's browser doesn't support push notifications which is why Watch Duty (a popular system for keeping track of California wildfires) is crippled unless you use an Android or Apple app. In a fair world, they would have coded Watch Duty to use push so that anybody with a browser could access the full functionality; but we live in a crApp world so this is what we get. I'd like to see regulators require them to support all the web standards in their browsers as part of anti

  • Do sites that run emulators in your browser work on iOS? (I don't have one to know)

    MSXpen [msxpen.com] - MSX editor for BASIC and ASM with built-in emulator
    6502asm git archive [github.com] of clone of the defunct 6502asm.com (sorry, wayback link didn't work). Here's a mirror of the clone [rm-f.net].
    PCjs [pcjs.org] - PC emulator in JavaScript. Lots of machines and disk images.
    Tiny 8bit Emulators [github.io] - Amstrad CPC and others, based on a set of single-header C libraries for emulators [github.com] and graphics [github.com]

    Products like GB Studio [gbstudio.dev] can output a virtual machine bytecode that

  • Steve Job's ghost insists that Apple products stay a closed ecosystem. Big Brother Apple insists it knows what is best for it's users, and that is all that Apple will let them have.

  • I used to stand up for iOS users but by 2024 it's just a BDSM subtype kink.

    Have fun but you know what you signed up for.

Slashdot Top Deals

Whatever is not nailed down is mine. Whatever I can pry up is not nailed down. -- Collis P. Huntingdon, railroad tycoon

Close