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Classic Games (Games)

Bored With Chess? Magnus Carlsen Wants to Remake the Game (msn.com) 71

Posted by EditorDavid from the king's-gambit dept.
"Magnus Carlsen, the world's top chess player, is bored of chess," the Washington Post wrote Friday: Carlsen has spent much of the past year appearing to dismiss the game he has mastered: It was no longer exciting to play, he told a podcast in March. In December, he withdrew from defending a world championship because he was penalized for wearing jeans to the tournament.

How would the world's best player spice up the game? Change the rules, and add a touch of reality TV.

Ten of the world's top players gathered in a German villa on the Baltic coast this week to play in the first tournament of a new chess circuit, the Freestyle Chess Grand Slam Tour, that Carlsen co-founded. The twist: The tour randomizes the starting positions of the chess board's most important pieces, so each game begins with the queen, rooks and knights in a jumble. [It's sometimes called "Chess960" or Fischer random chess — with both players starting with the same arrangement of pieces.] Players have to adapt on the fly. Carlsen is backed by a cadre of investors who see a chance to dramatize chess with the theatrics of a television show. Players wear heart-rate monitors and give confession-booth interviews mid-match where they strategize and fret to the audience. Some purists are skeptical. So is the International Chess Federation, which sent a barrage of legal threats to Freestyle Chess before it launched this week's event.

At stake is a lucrative global market of hundreds of millions of chess players that has only continued to grow since the coronavirus pandemic launched a startling chess renaissance — and, perhaps, the authority to decide if and how a centuries-old game should evolve... The format is an antidote to the classical game, where patterns and strategies have been so rigorously studied that it's hard to innovate, Carlsen said. "It's still possible to get a [competitive] game, but you have to sort of dig deeper and deeper," Carlsen said. "I just find that there's too little scope for creativity."
The article also includes this quote from American grand master Hikaru Nakamura who runs a chess YouTube channel with 2.7 million subscribers). "An integral part of regular chess is that when you play, you spend hours preparing your opening strategy before the game. But with Fischer Random ... it's a little bit looser and more enjoyable." And German entrepreneur Jan Henric Buettner (one of the investors) says they hope to bring the drama of Formula One racecars. ("Cameras mounted at table level peer up at each player during games," the article notes at one point.)

The first Freestyle Chess Grand Slam Tour (with a $750,000 prize pool) concluded Friday, according to the article, but "Carlsen did not play in it," the Post points out. "He was upset in the semifinals by German grand master Vincent Keymer." Carlsen's reaction? "I definitely find Freestyle harder."

But Chess.com reports that Carlsen will be back to playing regular chess very soon: Global esports powerhouse Team Liquid has announced the signings of not just one, but two superstars of chess. Five-time World Champion and world number-one Magnus Carlsen and the 2018 challenger, world number-two Fabiano Caruana will represent the club ahead of the 2025 Esports World Cup (EWC)... Carlsen and Caruana, fresh from competing in the Weissenhaus Freestyle Chess Grand Slam, will first represent Team Liquid in the $150,000 Chessable Masters, which begins on February 16 and serves as the first of two qualifying events in the 2025 Champions Chess Tour. The top-12 players from the tour qualify for the EWC.
In an announcement video Carlsen reportedly trolls the FIDE, according to Indian Express. "The announcement video sees Carlsen wear a Team Liquid jersey along with a jacket and jeans. He then asks: 'Do I have to change?' To this, someone responds: 'Don't worry, we're pretty chill in esports. Welcome to Team Liquid.'"

Bored With Chess? Magnus Carlsen Wants to Remake the Game More | Reply

Bored With Chess? Magnus Carlsen Wants to Remake the Game

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  • No need (Score:4, Informative)

    by kmoser ( 1469707 ) on Saturday February 15, 2025 @01:36PM (#65169003)
    Chess has already been made un-boring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

    • How do they move the chess pieces with boxing gloves on?

    • There's also the two variants of chess that we played at school, one of which had combat and spellcasting, the other which involved panzer divisions. A lot more interesting than that woosy "bishop to E5", particularly when that puts him within range of a directed fireball from the castle.

    • I'm too chicken to step into an actual boxing ring. I'm not too chicken to admit that though.

      How about substituting Punch-Out [wikipedia.org]for the actual boxing?

      I don't want to risk hurting anyone even though I never actually had my hands registered as lethal weapons. I've been openly carrying them all my life.

  • The twist: The tour randomizes the starting positions of the chess board's most important pieces, so each game begins with the queen, rooks and knights in a jumble. [It's sometimes called "Chess960" or Fischer random chess — with both players starting with the same arrangement of pieces.] Players have to adapt on the fly.

    That actually sounds ... kind of awesome.

    • It sounds good until you analyze it...

      The problem is that multiple random positions means multiple starting positions that are losing positions before the game even starts.

      It's interesting because it raises the possibilities and complexity of chess. It creates 40,320 starting positions. When adjusted for the rules there are 960 different starting positions. Every position is then a *different* game. So it's impossible to memorize the openings like traditional chess by studying the MCO.

      But.

      Some of those star

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by XXongo ( 3986865 )

        The problem is that multiple random positions means multiple starting positions that are losing positions before the game even starts.

        Both players get the same arrangement, so the randomness doesn't advantage one player over the other.

        • That's not true... certain randomly produced setups do inherently have an advantage for black or white.

          Some of those are pure winning position for black or white.

          • certain randomly produced setups do inherently have an advantage for black or white.

            Some of those are pure winning position for black or white.

            White playing the first move, how can the position have an advantage for black?

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by XXongo ( 3986865 )

            That's not true... certain randomly produced setups do inherently have an advantage for black or white. Some of those are pure winning position for black or white.

            Not mathematically impossible, but this early in the game, unlikely.

          • Some of those are pure winning position for black or white.

            Which position is pure winning for either black or white?

      • If your intent is a reality-show then it makes perfect sense!
        "I was expecting at least the Queen at F3, but the bitch was at A6!"
        "And wouldn't you know, this Motherfucker was waiting for me with his Knight at D3!"
        "Like WTF Bruh!"
        "Next chance I get I'm voting his ass out!"

        Like a high-brow Big Brother, lol!

      • What Chess960 starting positions have been found to be unfair?

        An interesting solution would perhaps be to generate 7 random positions, give each player three blind vetoes when seeing these 7, and randomly pick one from those that remain.

      • Or do like in Bridge: Give the same starting positions to other players in the tournament and compare how well they play them.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Zak3056 ( 69287 )

        This is easily dealt with--you play two games with the same starting position with each player playing as white in one of the games. To ensure a fair second game, play the games back to back so there isn't any time for prep/analysis between games. Now both players are (almost) equally disadvantaged.

    • If you like randomness, why not play poker instead? It's quicker, there's more drama, and spectators find the rules simpler to follow.

      A large part of the appeal of chess for people around the world is that it is deterministic. If you lose, you've only got yourself to blame, you can't claim bad luck. You feel in control. And the fact that the starting position is unique makes it easy to think through "what if?" scenarios and compare your own strategies with the masters. That in turn makes you feel like yo

      • Chess960 is deterministic. The starting positions are determined at random, and of course mirrored, but other than that the game is entirely deterministic.

        Also, it's ridiculous to say that one should play an entirely unrelated game that plays out entirely differently simply because one dislikes draw death and the reliance of opening theory in chess when a simple fix exists for that game.

        This is like saying that if someone proposes that fighting actually be banned from Ice Hockey: “If you like a game w

      • If you like randomness, why not play poker instead? It's quicker, there's more drama, and spectators find the rules simpler to follow.

        A large part of the appeal of chess for people around the world is that it is deterministic. If you lose, you've only got yourself to blame, you can't claim bad luck. You feel in control. And the fact that the starting position is unique makes it easy to think through "what if?" scenarios and compare your own strategies with the masters. That in turn makes you feel like you're learning/improving, which is exciting.

        What the story describes is a random starting position, and both players get that same position (just like in normal chess, they both start with the same positions).

        The rest of it is deterministic; it's only the starting position that is random. So, not like poker.

    • If you want to see it in action, you can check out some of the games here [chess.com], (and also watch the replay of the tournament video if for some reason you want to do that).

  • Just play shogi (Score:3)

    by jopet ( 538074 ) on Saturday February 15, 2025 @01:57PM (#65169033) Journal

    much better, much less boring than chess, equally challenging, if not more.

  • Never played Fischer Chess, but Monster Chess [wikipedia.org] is a lot of fun.

  • "they hope to bring the drama of Formula One racecars"
    "and the Black Bishop sideswipes the White Rook, sending him off the board in flames! Oh the humanity!"

  • Spectator chess is not unrealistic.

  • Chess is what it is, a game of strategic war. That is not really conducive to making live action TV. It just isn't.

    Might as well make a life size board, and make all the pieces real people that must combat each other to win each move, some pieces can even have fencing! And horses! I guess the rook might be a bit overpowered since it is a manned tower, that might need to be changed.

  • 5D Chess With Multiverse Time Travel [steampowered.com]
    "Headache inducing" is a common review term.

    Also, leveling the field between people who know Chess and complete newbies, because nobody knows what is going on.

  • I want to know if you can wear jeans while playing the game, that's all.

    • Re:I just want to know (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ihavesaxwithcollies ( 10441708 ) on Saturday February 15, 2025 @06:30PM (#65169455)
      It's the same as going to your job. You can wear whatever the fuck you want while playing chess, but once you do it at an organization that has rules, it's up to them. If your boss bitches at you about wearing jeans, you change them. You don't act like an entitled prick that kind of sucks at chess and has a new and more pathetic excuse than the last at every loss.

      • It's not the same because one can always go to another company that allows it. The issue with F.I.D.E. is that it has a monopoly and also uses tactics to keep it that would be considered illegal under antitrust law almost anywhere if it were a commercial endeavour.

        The reality is that sports are often managed by highly undemocratic organizations that often have monopolies that would surely be considered illegal if it hadn't to do with sports and they often unilaterally make controversial decisions.

        If there w

        • Are you honestly trying to say that no one can or has ever made another chess organization?

          • The reason Kasparov could get away with the split is the same reason Magnus Carlsen is given substantial leeway now: they're the best players in the world and I'm not sure if F.I.D.E. would condone it now. Kasparov's split relied upon the fact that F.I.D.E did not punish him for it by denying him access to all F.I.D.E. sanctioned tournaments, which it wasn't willing to do because he was the best player in the world. I'm not so sure they would be so lenient in the current climate.

            This is how these organizati

  • They also tend to have a shorter lifespan than the original.

  • Randomizing positions will get just as boring pretty quickly.

    Maybe instead, try changing how some of the players move. Or score a bonus move after capturing an opponent's piece.

    • Are there any popular games that have a random start? In any culture?

      None I can think of but in general in you need to randomize something as core to the game as where the pieces start in chess then there's a fundamental flaw in the game or the game has simply been tapped out.

      • Boggle, Scrabble, Tetris, Poker, Dominoes, Sudoku, Minesweeper, Risk.

        What's different about these, is that they are thoroughly random, and randomness is a key feature of the game, not just an add-on.

        • Scrabble has a static board. Boggle is a dice game with no positioning or board. Tetris has a static board (empty screen to start). Dominoes has what is essentially a blank board to start. I don't play sudoku, no comment. Minesweeper has the same grid. Risk has the same map and number of starting pieces.

          • Your question was, "Are there any popular games that have a random start?"

            These games all qualify.

            And Chess has a static board, these guys are randomizing the placement of the pieces on it, just like Scrabble has a static board, with letter tiles that are randomized each game. Your point makes no sense.

            • The board position is the start. If that's not the start then what is?

              • I see you neatly ducked Sudoku, which very definitely has randomized starting positions for the numbers.

                Minesweeper does NOT have the same grid. It looks the same, but that's only because the positions of the mines are hidden. Compared to randomized chess positions, it would be like placing a cover over the board and not showing what piece is in which location, until you touch the cover. Definitely not the same grid.

                Boggle also has random starting positions for the pieces, which happen to be called dice.

                Wha

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Opyros ( 1153335 )
        Checkers [quadibloc.com], at least as played in tournaments and matches. Though this may not qualify as a "popular" game, since almost everybody plays checkers/draughts without any three-move ballot or other randomization.

  • We're playing Warhammer 40,000 or Flames of War these days.

    Turns out that painting the pieces is as fun as playing the game. And snooty Chess officials won't let me paint my own pieces. Therefor Chess is automatically a failed game.

  • It's a cross between chess and a card game.

    Example: Card named "Holy War" - "Swap the positions of one of your Knights and one of your Bishops. Play this card immediately after your move."

  • One that can modify the abilities of other pieces. Chess is a model of strategy in war, but it is missing spies and infrastructure attacks which were less common long ago. There were no bulldozers, mine fields, less compromised communications, no bombing of runways. You could also make the board bigger so more contests can occur simultaneously in different areas of the board; in addition to that an airplane piece that can move several other pieces to a new location could be added.
  • First, Capablanca decides that the game is played out and proposes a new form of chess [wikipedia.org]. Then, Bobby Fischer decides the same thing and proposes Fischer Random chess. Now Carlsen wants to change the rules; at least, he goes with Fischer's version rather than suggesting something brand new.

  • In general, watching people think is boring. The only reason poker works is the massive amount of money that can ride on a single decision. That and massive editing. The amount of hands not shown on TV is really large.

    So, you make chess faster and then it just seems like who can click fastest and you are just up against any eSport.

    And, the reason F1 does well is really well trained commentary and camera crews that know how to tell a story about cars that go remarkably fast and guess what, some races are sti

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