Open Letter to the Emulation Community 214
This is an open letter to the emulation scene, and to the authors of UltraHLE.
I have been an emulation fan for years, ever since I downloaded the first version of VSMC years ago. That version of VSMC did not run a single game, in fact I don't even think that it displayed graphics. But, it still fascinated me, and many others like me. I remember reading hundreds of technical documents relating to emulation, specifically of the SNES, a brand new system at the time. The emulation world was exciting, even though commercial games were not the focus. In the past few years, hordes of people have hit the emulation scene and have equated it with the warez scene. A few days ago, with the release and discontinuation of UltraHLE, this reality has come to a head.
I repect the authors of UltraHLE, but I would like to address this open letter to them and to any other true members of the emulation scene, who are simply amazed by the technical prowess of UltraHLE. At the release of UltraHLE, I was extremely excited for the community. With bleem, Connentix's Virtual Game Station, and UltraHLE all ready for release, the scene finds itself at a defining point. The events that occur now will shape the future of emulation.
Then it hit. Many outsiders, mostly "31337 warez h4x0rs", discovered UltraHLE and the frenzy began. No matter where I went, I saw requests for ROMs. At one point, I had to leave EFNet's #emu out of disgust. What ever happened to the true emulation scene and the days of Archaic Ruins, Node 99, VSMC, and technical interest in emulation? Simply put, with the world watching, we all ran and hid.
The first people to hide were the true members of the emulation scene. We easily could have prevented this from the very start by not giving away our own personal ROMs, not posting ROM sites, and kicking every person from our IRC channels that we could. The maintainers of popular emulation sites could have removed all links to ROMs, and posted the true point of emulation. But, instead we just bitched. That's all, we just complained about how lame the warezers were, and otherwise kept quiet. What is the result of this? The rest of the world looked at the scene and didn't see us, didn't hear us, and saw one thing and one thing only: piracy. I am very disappointed in myself and the scene.
Following this, the authors of emulators began to get scared. At a pivotal point in the history of emulation, the very founders got scared! With Sony suing Connectix, the potential for legal action, and the explosion of warez foolishness, the authors got frustrated. But, what did they do? Several of them just quit, further tarnishing the public view of the emulation scene, at the most important time in emulation history. To those authors that discontinued their emulators: I am ashamed.
Now, this is specifically to the authors of UltraHLE. Congratulations, you have created the best emulator of all time. Oh, and by the way, thank you for destroying the scene. Don't get me wrong, I hold the highest respect for your technical abilities, and as a coder myself, I am aware of the daunting task that you had ahead of you. But, please, your arguments for discontinuing your emulator are weaker than any that I have ever heard. Let us analyze your argument:
"The UltraHLE project was a technical demo, an experiment to see if N64 emulation really is possible and an attempt to advance the state of the art in emulation. It was not designed to be a tool for piracy."
No emulator is designed as a tool for piracy! In fact, nearly every emulation author gives their emulator away for free, simply because they are only interested in the technical side of emulation. If you had stated this days in advance before releasing your emulator, then maybe some of this could have been avoided.
"Once it was released, things moved at an unforeseen pace. In a matter of hours, the main interest for people became acquiring illegal copies of game ROMs. This was why the pages were put down in a matter of hours."
If you did not expect this hysteria, then I doubt that you thought over what you were doing when you were writing the emulator. In fact, if you thought that there would not be warez pups fighting and pleading for ROMs, then you must be naïve. This is not an excuse! On top of this, you only kept the site up for a matter of 4 hours. I can guarantee that the hysteria would die down in under a month. If you would have stood up for the emulator, and for the scene, then you may have actually helped the community, instead, you have damaged it nearly irreparably.
"We do not condone this use of illegal ROMs in any form and do not allow our emulator to be used in this way. As we cannot effectively stop people from using this product in wrong and illegal ways, we have no choice but to discontinue the project.
This is the crescendo of your argument, and it is essentially like a software engineer saying the following: "I am going to stop coding anything at all, because people are going to pirate it." OF COURSE THEY ARE. There are millions of idiots in this world, it is unavoidable, but that does not mean that you can use them as a crutch, and it does not mean that any idiots are a part of the scene. With this statement, all you have done is admitted publicly to the rest of the world that noone in the emulation scene cares about the technical element, which is simply not true. As an ambassador to the world for the emulation scene, you pointed at us and made us look like fools. Thanks a bunch. Now the world thinks that we are warezing anarchist teenagers and that emulation is illegal. Evidence of this is Nintendo's comment on UltraHLE.
In conclusion, I would like to reinstate that I have the utmost respect for the technical abilities of the UltraHLE authors, and I am not trying to attack them. I understand that it all happened so quickly, but that does not mean that there were not 3 months to prepare before you released the emulator. At this point, I wish you hadn't released it at all.
There is only one way to mend the damage that has been done. And it is twofold. First, the emulation scene needs to gather together to get rid of the warez pups. Simply put: don't give out ROMs, don't post ROMs, don't post links to ROMs, deny that UltraHLE ever existed, and explain the technical beauty of emulation. Secondly, the authors of UltraHLE must release the source code of their emulator, release technical papers on how they did it, how it works, and why it was created. This would be for the benefit of the community, and would show the world what we are really about.
With hope,
Jonathan LaCour
Panix on EFNet
panix@resnet.gatech.edu
Emulators keep old console platforms alive (Score:1)
So? Re: you are so wrong (Score:1)
Incidentally, I thought we were talking about the uber-elite emulator authors who don't want to use their emulators, not the game companies who don't want us to use emulators?
Academia breeds myopia (Score:1)
If you make something suited to a particular use, whatever that use may be, then it will be used -for that use- by others. Terribly sorry if you don't like people finding practical uses for emulators; it's really not a giant leap of logic.
Once a piece of software has been written and distributed, you can no longer control what people will do with it. In fact, it's really none of your business as far as I'm concerned. Sure, you can halt development and leave your users hanging -- but once you distribute a piece of software it's out there forever. People will continue to use it for whatever they damn well please, if they so desire.
Sorry, emulation scene d00dz, but I think you're fooling yourselves or trying to pull a 'leetness enhancing move ("We're so cool, we wrote this emulator; but we're so far above you lame warez dudes, that you can't actually use it for anything").
Ah, scenes. Haven of teenaged boys worldwide.
Re: From the back page of the Star Fox 64 manual (Score:1)
Re: Console profits (Score:1)
How does one make ROMs? (Score:1)
The world's full of idiots (Score:2)
I used to hang out on #emu too when the N64 had just come out, and they started flooding in demanding emulators for it. I gave in and, as a joke, made a little program. It did nothing more than say your CPU didn't meet the requirements. And well, back then nothing could do it. Next month is the three year anniversary of that day, and I still get emails, "It says my CPU isn't good enough, I have a P2/450 or something". Fifteen minutes in Delphi, a 100K zip, and people expect it to work...
It was a cute joke for me, and a couple other people I gave it to. Give it to dolts begging for N64 warez, and laugh at them for falling for it (and not seeing the obvious joke in it). But it got spread like wildfire all over the warez scene, and still is today. One guy on AOL even made a web page saying he made it. Of maybe 1100 emails I've received, only maybe 5 or so realized it's true meaning.
What's my point in all this? I don't know. But if you think emulators are about technical abilities of programmers and all, you're only kidding yourself. 99.99% of the people who show interest in emulators only want to be able to play the games for free.
What do you expect? (Score:1)
This is just false. If you want to lear how a program actually works, looking at the source code is tough to beat. This is one of the founding principles behind Free Software.
One may also think about Minix, a free OS Andrew Tannenbaum wrote for an introductory book on operating systems (Operating Systems, Design and Implementation). The book explains how OSs work, and gives you in the back the complete source code for an actual OS kernel. If you want to see how a scheduler can be written, read the part of the book on process scheduling, and then read the source code.
The anti-gun comments are absurd and deny reality, and seem to be nothing more than self-righteous, holier-than-thou breast beating. On a national level Chamberlain proved that "reasoning" with thugs like Hitler or Stalin and their ilk is a waste of breath. Six million Jews proved that passivity is guaranteed death. If someone attacks me or my loved ones inorder to acquire property or cash to support their drug habits, in the final result I would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six. The perp better make his first shot count, he'll never get a second.
Gun advocates sadly only rarely go beyond "self-defense", and "the constitution" for their arguments. I am an anti-gun person, yet I can recognize you your right to self defense, so if you stick to that, you aren't going to tell me anything I don't know by now.
But you should really try shifting your point of view from looking merely at guns and think about the international armament industry. Yes, the companies who make weapons for third world dictators to murder anyone they suspect of being dissidents. Looking at it from this point of view, being middle-class and the US and supporting guns (and therefor, financing the armament industry) "for defense against tyranny" seems just plain stupid.
Of course, this didn't address the right to self-defense. But people seem to look over the fact that the while need to defend oneself might be natural, the "need" to defend oneself with a gun and in a modern day US city is as artificial as it gets. More guns is lousy politics; it fails to look at the causes of crime. Stopping all this "war on drugs" nonsense (which really benefits the illegal drug kings, since it drives up the prices) and setting up serious drug rehab programs, and distributing society's wealth fairly (instead of giving 90% to the top 2%, or the likes of that) would go a long way towards diminishing your "need" of self defense and guns.
Finally, if you folks with the pseudonames think your opinion is so important why don't you have the courage to sign your real names. Until you do your opinions aren't worth the electrons they are written with. One wonders how effective the Declaration of Independence would have been if the signatures were "Electric Man", or "WordSmith", etc...
I wouldn't be surpirsed if many of your nation's founding fathers used a pseudonym sometime. Someone with a better knowledge of US history might be able to give examples.
Anyway, as far as I am concerned, I judge postings by content, not name.
And BTW, on a sidenote, I am sick and tired of seeing good posts by ACs being shot down by saying "oh, you're an AC, your opinion doesn't count" or "I'll listen when you are brave enough to put your name on it".
---
Purposes of software (Score:1)
Palm Computing has it right: Release Debug ROM (Score:1)
Yes, a Debug ROM.
You have to be declared a developer, and fill out a form, but afterwards you can pull their POSE and a Debug ROM. http://www.palm.com, developer section for details.
---
Release Source (Score:1)
I encourage the authors of UltraHLE to either rethink their discontinuation of the project, or to release the source code so others can enhance the emulator. There are many reasons people would like a working n64 emulator other than piracy, because the n64 games are simply better on a computer than on a console/TV.
What about... (Score:1)
Ancient games that I even owned once for the snes but because of my working situation can only play them via the snes emulator?
And as for the author of this letter, you are either remarkably naive, or being intentionally obtuse. Of course, I admire the authors of the UltraHD or whatever it was for their incredible achievement. Me and some friends even planned at one time to write an snes emulator, and still will if we ever get enough time. But that doesn't preclude us from wanting to use them to play free games.
OK, lets get to the MEAT of the issue (Score:1)
Umm... There's a difference between "owning" an algorithm and "owning" a piece of creative content.
I look at these ROMS like MP3's. I also look at them like books.
I'm all for screwing the record companies, but I'd like to see artists get compensation. Same for the video game companies. No one's been violated when you rip a ROM?
Tell that to Shiergu Miyamato and his team who developed Zelda 64. While I'm sure 90% of what he does he does for love of the game, I'm sure he wouldn't be quite so eager or able to do it if he had to work another job to support himself while doing it.
Who would make their living writing books in a world where they could expect no means of living from that activity?
And I'm sorry if shelling out $40-50 to pay for the right to own a copy of a game is "screwing with" your life, but your refusal to do so by circumventing their means of compensation is truly screwing with the creators' lives.
I'm not saying the current compensation structures are perfect, but pirating creative works is just as bad.
This is the problem I have with apparent FSF philosophy versus contemporary OSS principles. I believe open code and development is good and holy, but I don't believe it's evil to want something back for your work beyond your reputation. This doesn't mean you get to have a stranglehold on things, but some sunbstantive reward for your work generally keeps one working.
OK, lets get to the MEAT of the issue (Score:1)
I don't think that those free-software-fundamentals realy fit here. It's not like "every sysadmin writes a little unix-tool, we share them, and the world is a better place."
It's more like "a million ppl want to play games, and a few thousand can write them, who don't need them themselves." At least they don't need them badly enough to dedicate a few years (!) of their life to writing them. This would NOT happen without the financial incentive. They are not NEEDED by anyone, only WANTED. Another point is, that a lot of free-software gets written by ppl who want to "give something back" to the community. Why would any games-programmer want to give something back to the folks who buy (or copy) games ?? They have contributed nothing, they can not and they do not even want to.
It would not work, if the makers of a game were not allowed to decide who's gonna use it and who's
not.
Sigh... (Score:1)
It's been an annoying few days for me; reading Dave's Classics general board and watching the flood of debate on UltraHLE/tearfully written goodbyes to emulation/carefully written ROM requests. But then again, reading
Frankly, UltraHLE is nifty(although not totally new, for those asking about the source code, check out Dave's Programming board for some technical discussion by Videoman and Dan Boris). It almost seems like it came out too quick; most N64 emu coders were struggling along with the Reality coprocessor, nothing was believed possible for several years. Bang, all of a sudden someone's produced a fast and viable emu. Not even PSX emulation came along that fast. Some other people's comments on the naivety of the authors also seems true; I've never seen an emulator or a emu website that didn't have "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT ASKING ME FOR THE ROMS" stamped on the readme or site. "We didn't intend it to be used for piracy". Are these guys knowledgable about modern-day emulation, or are they just two programmers that used to work for the Big N that pieced together an emu?
Prestige is another factor in emulation. Just look at the MindRape bit, and the furor over creating frontends. And the message boards with people posting, "hey I wanna make an emulator. what's a memory map?". Although, some of those ignorant people have indeed built some tiny emulators, after studying. As a hobbyist coder, it's nice to see someone learning new things and actually doing something with it. Emulators having another point besides piracy? Yes. People actually learn how to do complex and occasionally useful things with coding emulators. It's called "experience". And much to the amazement of some people, it sometimes also really is because "just to see if we can do it", like PSEmuPro(which started as a experiment to see if an R4000 core could be done on an x86 platform). I've been thinking of building some small emulators. Do I want to play free Game Boy games all day? No. I just like to tinker with code, and figure out how hardware works.
Panix, trying to "shut out the warez pups" is futile and rather stupid(they're annoying, but they're everywhere). To use examples from another legal gray area of mine, how about anime? "Oh, these new people coming in because anime is becoming more well known are not going to contribute anything, they're just lusers. We need to band together and keep anime just to ourselves!" Sound familiar?
ROMs...well, I've never believed that's justifiable. Yes, having them is illegal, as it should be. Although in the several-years-out-of-print case, it's a bit quizzical to see what the companies would gain. There have been frequent suggestions that the companies sell the rights to people. This I wouldn't mind, although it probably wouldn't work. But still, I've seen a lot of true emulation fans willing to compromise with the companies. It remains to be seen what the companies will do.
Phew. I don't think I've had a valid train of thought in this message. Still, I like emus, I like digging into code for them, and they're nice for playing rare games that I wouldn't have an opportunity to play.
Will UltraHLE result in the death of emulation? Probably not. The memory of the public is notoriously shortlived. Anyone remember the NeoRage incident? Can you find a warez pup now that remembers it?
Guns have many uses! - NOT! (Score:1)
: The United States has survived for over two-hundred years with a constitution protective of our right to bear arms. And we've avoided the pitfalls of totalitarianism and despotism that so many other nations that practice gun control have fallen into. Does the phrase "Nazi Germany" mean anything to you? How about "Soviet Russia?"
How about "Canada"? Does that mean anything to you? Why is it that gun activists ALWAYS go for the "Nazi Germany/Hitler" thing? Believe it or not, not everyone is out to get you. BTW, if you want to talk about pitfalls, there's always Ken Starr, Sexgate, the Radical Religious Right, the Communications "Decency" Act... I really have no idea why this whole thread degenerated as it did, as this has absolutely nothing to do with emulation. Perhaps we could get back on track? L8r.
now hold on (Score:1)
As a side-note, most rare animals are also not "needed", but a lot of people want them to live nevertheless
But seriously, I did not say what society should or should not do, that's obviously not for me to decide. What I meant was this:
If there were no copyright on games, they would not get written. Programmers don't write games for themselves, like I might write, say, a secure web-server for myself, because I need to have one when there is none available. When my goal of having this server is achieved I can give it to others for free. But the motivation to write games is to make money, not to satisfy some personal need. Sure, it might be great fun to make a game and become the hero of thousands of gamers. But only an insignificantly small number of programmers can afford this, in the age of final-fantasy-games that consume double-digit-millions during their production.
And they are not even "needed" by the gamers. If there where no games they would watch more tv instead
Or perhaps they would try to offer money to programmers to write new games for them. But for that to be successful there would have to be an enormous number of them willing to pay.
This is the case now. This number would decrease, to the point of beeing not enough of an incentive for programmers, if it were legal to copy games. At least that's what I would predict.
(Note that "programmer" here includes grafix-artists, musicians and other folks working on game-creation)
dont be silly (Score:1)
> i could work my fingers to the bone making mud pies
Sure You could, but tell me a reason why You would want to do that. - see, that's the point.
> your compenstion theory is unrealistic anyhow, nobody gets paid a commission everytime someone uses E=mc^2 - but that difn't stop it's creator from doing quite OK
How many universities, financed by taxes, are there that create computer-games ? And how many would You WANT there to be ? None I presume. Same goes for me.
> intellectual property is the parasite, it inhibits people from making the best of resources that they already have before them
I would not consider games a resource but a luxury. And people do not "already have them", unless someone is willing to make them.
Show me your top-3-reasons for making free software, and I show you how they do not apply to the vast majority of games-programmers.
Some examples beforehand:
- to give something back. Back to whom ? The kids playing my games ? This is not giving back, but just giving. Few people can afford such generousity.
- because I need the tool in question myself. Can aply to a new shell, a new ftp-client, a new network-monitor. But games ??
- because it's fun to write. Surely it's a lot of fun to create a cool game that everybody loves. But would you, and your ten buddies whos work is also needed, risk your financial life (stupid term, I know) for this fun ? I fear the number of games-companies who are in it for the fun and crash horribly is big enough
Other, more realistic, reasons would be apreciated.
Purposes of software (Score:1)
However, you must understand, there is a concept involved, all right, but there is also utility. Understanding how the energy stored within atoms can be put to use is one thing, but there is the fact that there are uses to that research that scientists have actually killed themselves upon discovering that it was being used to make high-yield warheads.
The academic hunt for knowledge is only half the equation; utility of that knowledge is the other half.
In the same nature, you must understand that emulators main function is to emulate. Cartridges are impossible to copy, since they are hardware, and CD-ROM burners are not yet installed in every computer in the US, much less the rest of the world.
Emulators, however, go around those physical boundaries to piracy by allowing images of the main hardware, and the data roms/disc to be placed in software, removing the physical limitations to piracy.
In this respect, could you please tell me, in terms I can understand, what other utility an emulator might have that I am not conceiving of?
Until you can describe this accurately enough that not only I, but anyone, can understand other possible uses for emulation, this will be very much seen as a pirate's tool, and for good reason.
--
Keep working at it... you will either succeed, or become an expert.
Nintendo caused my desire for emulation (Score:1)
and other such toys to enhance my game playing experience. I would very much like to play Zelda64
since I recognize it as a superior game.
Nintendo will not ever release for my platform of choice regardless of my willingness to purchase
their software. They clearly wish to tie my play to their hardware, even though it is suspected
that they make little money on the hardware.
This is equivalent to MS restricting its programs to run only on an MS operating system, it is market
control without any benefit to the consumer. In both cases an emulator could give me some control
over my environment.
The only problem is that `rippers' are so rare that it is probably easier for me to find pirate ROMS
than it is to purchase the cartridge and ask for it to be transformed to an emulatable form.
this *might* start a good trend.. (Score:1)
as an op in efnet #emu (as you know) we STRIVE against rom trading, rom site announcements, etc. in our channel. we are this way, and have been this way for as long back as i can remember, because way back (vsmc96's 2nd version i believe), we saw the first craziness of people trying to obtain final fantasy III (which was the new game that suddenly worked, due to The_Brain's figuring out of absolute HDMA - tangent). anyway, at that point, focuses started changing, as well as the popularity which began to increase.
the release of this past emulator made me laugh out loud, because this is going (and is already) to create more chaos than anyone expected (not only in #emu, but in this so-called "scene" of ours). if this gets all the weenie warez-y type people out of here, we could move back down to an underground style yet once again.
wishful thinking.
later,
-herb
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/marcr (since ml died)
What about purple fuzz? (Score:1)
but htat's easy. Does it support the light purple tint & fuzz?
Symptoms of the problem (Score:1)
As long as competent hobbiest programmers and engineers can copy ROMs and build emulators that work well it's going to happen. The only way I could see them avoiding it without changing thier practices would be by pricing games so low that it wasn't worth the effort to do and even then there would be a small segment that would do it just for fun. They would never do that as long as they can get away charging $40+ for games (a lot more than that for good N64 games) Not advocating piracy just saying that it's a financial issue and as long as it is it will happen.
Symptoms of the problem (Score:2)
They're fun too, I've got a few hundred apple II games on disk that I love to play and they're probably illegal and I've played some SNES ROMs. It's wonderful, you are playing real video games on linux... but to use the argument that RMS or ESR would use, emulators are just symptonms of the problem with commercialized software. N64 and PSX games cost $40 or even more, you buy a few and you've spent more on software than you have on the hardware. That is a lot of money. Open it up, let people port games to various platforms and then form distribution companies that copy them onto cartridges or CDs for a fee. As it is now, the N64 and PSX are close enough that it's the software that decides which machine most people get not which machine is better. If they really want to sell hardware then why don't they sell PC and Mac products that give them the features they need to program those games while allowing programmers to opensource games?
When you think about it, piracy is more often not because of cost. The people who do the most pirating usually can't buy the software they are stealing. The industry sees this as a loss of money but it's a loss of money that they would never get in the first place because these people can't afford their software. What do they expect to happen? They market these machines at teenagers and young-adults who can't afford them, then some of them have the technical savvy to figure out how they work and copy it so they can play for free.
I've finally achieved the position in life where I can actually afford to buy that kind of stuff and it doesn't seem worth it to me, that's not to say that I don't think Zelda is an awesome game and I would love to play it through but by the time I buy and N64 and a few games I've spent enough to buy a cheap computer that can do so much more, including emulate those games if I was a pirate, there isn't any decision.
What do you expect? (Score:1)
are emulated; it's the console. Emulating the
behavior of a piece of hardware does not violate
anyone's copyright, while distributing copies of
software that runs on it is. Emulators do the
former, not the latter, and hence cannot be used
for piracy. That many people choose to commit
piracy to obtain games to run in the emulators
is a completely separate issue, and irrelevant
to the legality/morality of emulators.
Kinda.. (Score:1)
Once they started giving away their own personal ROM's, the emulator "warez" pups crawled out of the woodwork. Thus began the downfall of the emulator crowd.
Purposes of software (Score:1)
Daniel
Guns have many uses! (Score:1)
Emulators, on the contrarry, have legitimate uses; aside from the wow value (this is important, emulators are technically neat. I wonder if people who don't see this have ever programmed) and their use in debugging new systems (not just game systems; OSes can be written in emulation), people who legitimately own the game cartridges may want to play them on another platform. And yeah, some game's licenses don't allow you to do that. Personally I think that's _stupid_ but the fact that some games have restrictions like that is meaningless when the argument that is brought up is that their *only practical use* is to break the law and violate other people's rights.
(isn't shooting someone a violation of their rights? So why are guns more sacred than emulators? Emulators at least have legal uses, while the *only practical use* of a gun is to violate someone else's rights.)
Daniel
That solution is a bit much... (Score:1)
Licensing... (Score:1)
The only question that I have is why haven't the vendors provided any support for the old games. I for one would be more than happy to actually purchase a copy of the game in rom form so that I can enjoy it on my PC. The problem is that none of the companies are seeing this. I mean heck... they can make more money off the old games that are no longer supported. Especially if the platform is hard to find anymore (I'm a pretty big fan of the old Atari 2600 and ColecoVision).
I know some of you want to flame me because it's not "free", but nothing in this world is truely free. Even pirated ROMs. I wouldn't want any kind of support. Just the ROM so that I can have a legal copy and can enjoy it for years to come, even when the old hardware has died. Which in my case the 2600 did indeed die on me...
Just my $.02 or however much the cartridge manufacturers want for the ROMs when licensed...
Mark
Argument to Continue?! (Score:1)
This argument is pathetic. His conclusion is that he respects the designers but they should not have released the emulator because they are naive. That's so egotistical.
Joseph Elwell.
Software Emulators Help Create and Debug Games (Score:1)
A software emulator can be used to help in the creation and debugging of new games. With an emulator, it's easy to add a few lines of code to display internal machine state information that otherwise would require cost-prohibitive in-circuit debuggers to do on the actual hardware.
Emulators have many uses other than piracy. Why have a stack of 10 different console machines and 20 different controllers (SMS, Genesis, Nintendo, SNES, N64, NeoGeo, Game Boy, Game Gear, Jaguar, Colecovision) when you can play all your games on one computer and a single pair of controllers?
in case you haven't guessed... (Score:1)
Emulators, Warez, and Linux (Score:1)
> almost stay that GNU DEMANDS THAT YOU PIRATE
> SOFTWARE.
No, it does not.
Who cares? Roll your own. (Score:1)
In any case, while many shudder at the thought, software in general, and specfically sources, are becoming very much a part of the public interest, and while no one is forced to produce anything, if they have they should certainly feel some responsibility to their community to release it rather than mothball it... it is a simple matter of encouraging progress, limiting redundant efforts, and really an ethical obligation to the community you are a part of.
Obviously this project has had an impact, seemingly negative, on the whole scene (and i do not mean console piracy), and that is something the authors must take responsibility for. Opening the source, adding value to the project beyond that of a piracy tool, maybe some kid drawing inspiration from it, could be the situations only redemption.
Binary boy - you're so gay! (Score:1)
who cares? WE ALL SHOULD (Score:1)
1. Neither money nor buildings can be reproduced at zero cost.
2. There is a difference between your rights under the law and a sense of communal obligation. Of course every person has legal rights to do more or less what the please with their property; the ethical values of sharing knowledge and other intangibles is something everyone must deal with in their own way, but has nothing to do with legal rights.
I would never fight to force someone to relinquish their hold on legitimate intellectual property, however we all still may reasonably appeal to the subjects in question, and should be able to without having excuses like yours cloud the issues. If a group can provide practical reasons for not releasing sources, be it legal (which it may be in this case), moral, or simple profit-motive, great, but if it is simply a matter being unaware of the possibility, or not wanting the responsibilities involved, that is something that should be addressed by the Open Source community.
Anarchist teenagers... (Score:1)
Naïveté is a two way street (Score:1)
Naïveté is a two way street (Score:1)
I've been wanting to rant, now it's my turn!
Although my history of emulation is pretty minimal, it seems to me that the scene is, and always has been, founded on the two pillars of software piracy and technical programming. The reason that people can reconcile this is that most emulated items up until this point were fairly unavailable (and the piracy was often required to obtain material to test). "As much as I'd like to buy an original Battlezone arcade machine.. Perhaps, I'll just download the rom." This unavailability allowed people to just ignore the potential of their actions, allowed for the toleration (with only a few interuptions) of the roms scene, because in the end, we were not causing any damage.
This is where it changes, the day were everything begins again, because we are now causing damage. I'd personally be tempted to blame this on the corps. I'll be honest here. I've got an N64, and I didn't own Mario64, but I did download it to test it. I was absolutely blown away. If nintendo bought UltraHLE, put it on a CD with Mario64, and sold it for $30 (No change in profit on the change from cartridge to CD) I'd buy it, and I think alot of other people would too. But because Nintendo is one of the least flexible corporations known to man, perhaps the only company that really believes it can eliminate piracy, we are punished. I can only hope the sony case will conclusivly decide the fate of modern system emulation.
Thank you, and have a nice day.
-Teman
Guns/emulator comparison not quite valid (Score:1)
Now, game emulators may not take human life (social life, maybe? :-), but as we know, they certainly are illegally used for pirating of console games. However, it could be argued that, like the duality of guns, emulators could have a legitimate purpose, such as allowing those of us with Linux machines who don't have a console to buy console games and play them via the emulator.
And I was just about to make that argument now, until I realized, that would rob console manufacturers of revenue from the consoles themselves, not just the console games. Oops! Scratch that idea. :-(
And yet, assuming that there would be console manufacturers that would be OK with emulators being used to play purchased console games, there is still the problem of ensuring that these emulators are being used legitimately, not for pirating games. Guns may be an unfortunate necessity in this evil world, but emulators are not.
Personally, I'd rather just see more commercial game support for Linux and avoid this whole mess. ;-)
Slashdot Taking Sides Now? (Score:1)
editorial for Slashdot.
It looks as if Panix thinks he and others
in his "scene" are better because they care
about what is going on technically, and
they really could care less about actually
using the emulators they write. He tries
to make it sound that true emu people would
be satisfied if they could make a perfect
emulator and then never use it
for actually playing games.
I also don't understand this "It's ok because
we own N64's and the carts" argument. I mean,
if you own an N64 and Mario 64, why would
you go to the trouble of making an emulator
just to play the game on a computer, requiring
expensive rom backup equipment?
The only logical reason to make an emulator
is to USE it to play roms, and that's just
the way it is.
Lastly, Panix should not feel hostility for
"outsiders" to his scene because of the legions
of "3|337 h4X0rs" out there. Those people will
always be around, either winnuking, stealing
AOL passwords, mail bombing, warezing, playing
roms, or whatever the current fun thing to
do when you're 12 is. But such people should
just be ignored, if he wants to let them
take down their scene, then that's the
scene's problem. I agree with some one else
who equated this whole mess to that of MP3s.
In the mp3 case, I'd equate WinAMP/X11Amp to
Ultra HLE, and of course MP3s to roms. However,
when the author's of AMP/WinAMP found out
people were pirating MP3s, they didn't act
suprised and appauled and remove their program.
What is being Pirated???? (Score:1)
In computing, software and hardware designers intentionally remove copyrighted product from the market to introduce NEW and often worse product.
Games are one example of this. Talking about protecting the copyright of a game that can NOT be purchased at any price, and runs on OLD equiptment not available at any price, is unfair business practice. In my mind, there is no eithical issues of distributing ROMS for games which have had support ABANDONED for over a decade. If companies and authers from ATARI, Coleco, and TI and others are so hot and heavey about their copyright because wares rom pirating is so big, then LET THEM REDISTRIBUTE the games for the use of emulaters. THere is no reason for the emulator coders and the software venders to be at each others throats.
In fact, this presents an oppurtunity to these game authers and companies to profit on a stockpile of copyrighted material. If they want to make the roms available, then they have an issue with the warez addicts. If not, then they are blowing smoke.....
unethical smoke at that......
Ruben
Same with virii... (Score:1)
What I'm getting at, however, is that the authors should not be surprised that it is going to be used this way. Just like the guy who posts the source code to his virus on the web, the UltraHLE people were asking for something they obviously didn't want.
I haven't read NOA's response, but the emulator authors should not be at any fault. It is not illegal to reverse engineer, as long as it doesn't violate copyright or patent. (There is some shaky ground concerning decompilers, but that's a different story.) NOA should go after the ones distributing the ROMs, if anyone at all. Personally, I say "Free Beer!", but obviously they don't agree...
--
Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
How 'bout not supporting ROM files? (Score:1)
(there was no internet then :(. (Score:1)
No different than MP3 distrbution (Score:1)
My point? Emulators are good. ROM's are good. People are evil and unethical, and download ROM's that they have no legal right to have. Remedying the situation is a complex issue. Perhaps the game manufacturers should make legitimate copies of the emulators available for owners of their systems, and distribute ROM's that are compatible with the emulators.
Just one idea of an infinite number that could be used to fix the problem...
Guns have many uses! (Score:1)
...and there was me thinking it was to preserve a rapidly vanishing historical aspect of computing.
Hardware dies, code lives on, it's a future thing.
Maybe a moratorium on emulators until say, five years after the release of the device, would be a good idea?
Guns/emulator comparison not quite valid (Score:1)
Bzzzt, nope, might even save them money, particularly Sony, who sold the Playstation at almost zero margin, making it all back on the games. I believe the situation for Nintendo and Sega is similar.
As long as you only play legit games, DOH!
No Love Lost ... (Score:1)
Love to be proved wrong..
OK, lets get to the MEAT of the issue (Score:1)
Ok.
get rid of banks because of bank robbers
get rid of employers because of welfare cheats.
get rid of taxes because of tax cheats
... eh! you may have something here!
Stopping to write emuls because of warez d00dz... (Score:1)
Luckily emulators are not important software (in the sense of being usable for more than fun), but this sucks anyway. I'm not using any emulators myself, but it is still sad to see how those idiots can make people flee from their projects.
Open source is still the answer.
What the hell is he talking about? (Score:1)
Take SNES9x emulator, for example. It's amazing how well that thing can play existing ROMs such as Super Mario World, BlackThorne, Sonic The Hedgehog (and *much* more) on platforms such as Linux, FreeBSD, Windows.
Now if only someone sets up an infrastructure to make this all legal. (It's probably legal already if you own the cartridge for the ROM.)
-N.
Why indeed? (Score:1)
Yes. (Score:1)
Guns have many uses! (Score:1)
The fact of "only" 10,000 murders (sheesh)
is more from guns NOT being used, than due
to them "being used for other things bescides killing."
"warez" arcades in brazil (Score:1)
ever heard. thank god for non-brainwashed non-
americans.
but... but... it's the rest of us that suffer...
they attack the whole scene... not to try to blame it on the brazilians...
"WordSmith" (Score:1)
Szo
Where can I d/l UltraHLE and ROMS... (Score:1)
There has been a steady decline in the quality of emulation sites for the past few years. Once, I could find technical documents and component documentation, now I can only find Warez, Porn, Serialz, Crackz, and of course the Romz. I can't decide if it is a sad reflection on society, or a reflection of the ever growing online population of the, (and I hate to user this term, but for a lack of a better one), less educated.
This fact can not be disputed, everyday more AOL, WebTV, and other ISP's make it possible for people with very little computer knowledge to get going. My mother is the perfect example, she still has trouble turning on the computer, and any strange error messages, such as "The printer is out of paper," she freezes up, and it takes someone else to get her going again.
That is not to say that my Mom has become a heavy dealer in Warez, but if she can surf the web, I believe anyone can, and anymore, it doesn't take to many more brain cells to start your own page on Geocities, or other free web hosting domains. The Internet is becoming a less intelligent comunity on a minute by minute basis (in part why I so often seek refuge in
I'd like to do my part to make the Internet community more responsible, but at the same time, I don't want a strong governmental pressence, moderating content. People need to become educated, not censored. I praise your efforts, and commend you on a well spoken, and much needed letter, but I'm afraid that it will not be enough. I only hope that the community as a whole will condemn such practices and gain some ethics before the government has no choice but to moderate. It may very well be 1999, but we are moving in the right direction for 1984.
Time flies like an arrow;
Emulators have other uses as well. (Score:1)
On a more academic note, I find that emulators are very valuable. I use an MC HC68323 emulator to design programs from my class, and then run them on the reference boards at school.
But even at it's most basic level, the ability to design an emulator requires an intimate understanding of the platform both being emulated and emulated on. This requires a research and understanding that isn't taught in any classroom, and this exercise can truely be of value.
Additionally, WINE is not being designed so people can steal windows games and run them on Linux. How can HW emulation be any different from an ethical and moral sense. It is the people who rip and distribute ROM images that are responsible for the downfall of an otherwise honorable clan. The people who design and develop emulators are very good at what they do, and it should not be held against them that they create a product which is used in an illegal manner.
Time flies like an arrow;
OK, lets get to the MEAT of the issue (Score:1)
Sorry folks, but the raw core fact is that the right to "own" information like private property rights is simply immoral.
You invoke this rhetoric as if it's some kind of universally held belief, but it is not. In the absence of due compensation, financial incentive, software authors (and book authors , etc ) will not be productive. Copyright protection gives software authors a means to seek compensation for their labour in a competitive market place, just as anyone else doing their job has a means to seek compensation for their efforts. Without due compensation, they will seize to produce.
Your attempt to bypass this , is none other than an act of theft, which is why it is treated as such in the US.
cheers,
-- Elflord
Emulators, Warez, and Linux (Score:1)
You do ? Let me clue you in on something: not everyone agrees with everything Richard Stallman says. In fact most of us do not.
There are several parts of RMS's discussion that many would dispute:
Consider a space station where air must be manufactured at great cost: charging each breather per liter of air may be fair, but wearing the metered gas mask all day and all night is intolerable even if everyone can afford to pay the air bill.
Is this implying that software is essential as air ? That we have some kind of inalienable right to use any software ? If only software existed when the constitution was written. (-;
It's better to support the air plant with a head tax and chuck the masks.
In other words, he acknowledges that ultimately, someone has to pay for the software. He is advocating that our taxes pay for all software. Hmmm... more taxes, anyone ?
Copying all or parts of a program is as natural to a programmer as breathing, and as productive.
He is talking about programmers. He is talking about access to source code, not access to binary images. He is advocating that deveopers have free access to the source, not that warez d00dz have access to binary images.
Hmmm, with statements like those, you could almost stay that GNU DEMANDS THAT YOU PIRATE SOFTWARE.
No ... The GNU public license neither demands or condones any such thing. I believe you are guilty of confusing the license itself with the FSF. Not everyone who uses the license agrees with everything RMS says. Though some of RMS's rants put him in the position of an apologist for software pirates.
-- Elflord
OK, lets get to the MEAT of the issue (Score:1)
I disagree, but that is beside the point ... But this is not so much about "property" as it is the right to be compensated for ones labour. What you are advocating is bypassing the compensation process.
if someone can distribute their game to millions of people without cost - and can't find a way to get money out of that, than it's their problem - not everyone else's
If there were no games on the market, that would be everyone else's problem, because your proposed system ( no copyright protection) does not reward programmers, only distributers. You are advocating that the only compensation due to a programmer is for their efforts in distributing their work. The problem with this is that it leaves no incentive to program. In your system, everyone would want to distribute and no one would want to program.
A society of parasites cannot survive without a host.
Guns have many uses! (Score:1)
Guns: used for destructive purposes, no use that doesn't involve putting large holes in people / animals / things, ten *thousand* murders a year, not counting suicides or accidents... nothing wrong with them at all, can't imagine what the fuss is about.
Emulators: take years of skill to assemble, allow development for a platform without access to the development kit for that platform, only illegal activity encouraged by them is copyright violation and screwing an already rich corporation out of a few more bucks... NASTY! NASTY! BAN THEM! BAN THEM!
May I suggest that your priorities are a little misaligned? May I make that a strong one?
Guns/emulator comparison.. burden of proof (Score:1)
As for emulators depriving original game equipment manufacturers of revenue... tough **** for them. They can go after the pirates.. but not the makers of emulators.
old school (Score:1)
anyone have a decent dos apple][ emulator?
Ex Machina "From the Machine"
xm@GeekMafia.dynip.com [http://GeekMafia.dynip.com/]
A theft by any other name... (Score:1)
Technical beauty? Seriously, yes, they are quite nice pieces of work. But then again, I seriously doubt someone sat down one day and said, "Gee, I think I shall create and give unto the world a thing of technical beauty that people may marvel over. And this thing shall be an emulator." More likely it was, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if I could play that console game on my PC/Server/etc while I get work done?".
For people who argue for technical beauty and all that's black and white, go take a gander at some of the nice overseas computer shopping centers. Dedicated hardware for ripping roms from systems and carts/discs. Copied software up the *ss. Hardware and software emulation of games. 30-50 dollar games sold in disk, cd, tape, zip, etc. for mere dollars. Yeah, I find that REAL beautiful. The simple efficiency of it. A business of warez and ripping off the companies that developed the original hardware and software.
I'm sorry, but warez and emulators/emulation are virtually synonymous in most gamer circles. If you can emulate, then you can rip roms or know where to get them. And quite seriously, in most of those circles, if you know how and you're not doing it for a profit, you're and idiot. But then again, some people appreciate good coding for the beauty, right?
I can't seriously believe that a team who goes about creating an emulator wouldn't know that it would result in warez use. Almost seems to defy something called common sense.
As for "backup copies" of games and such, I agree that people have a right to "fair use". But seriously, I don't think fair use entails people copying the game and playing it while their friend borrows the original.
As for backup copies, that is a legitimate reason, but one which I think should be taken up with the companies themselves. We as consumers who buy the games should demand that if they want us to respect their "rules", they should respect our rights! If they don't want us to copy, then they should give us a way to obtain a new copy if our original is damaged or lost due to unforseen circumstances. If they can't provide such a means, then by all means, back it up.
But warez is here to stay. I can't speak for any other part of the world, but here in good old LA in California, warez IS rampant on a commercial level. It's a business in and of itself tuned to tee that you can as a consumer, walk into a game shop and flip through a large catalog and buy any psx/sega/etc game you want for $5-$20/disc. Yup, packaged in cellophane and with colour printouts for the cd cover and what not. The disk ain't black and the deals aren't legit. A good sign that the war against piracy is raging and piracy isn't showing signs of losing.
I applaud the people who work hard to increase their knowledge and build great things like emulators. But I don't believe that they are free from and guilt as they should be well aware that their work WILL contribute to the warez scene.
The whole concept of how an insolvable problem for you may be a solved problem for another which is heralded with pride in the software community is likewise sounded with pride in the warez community.
There are rippers and there are coders. The rippers are already out there. Just need the coders.
People will always think what they want. If you seek to change the thoughts of people and turn them from pirating, then aren't you branding yourself like the tyrants who would restrict your thinking and freedoms? And if you support those who would pirate, then aren't you taking value away from the hard working people?
A theft is still a theft and a contribution to society, whether or not it is recognized as such, is still a contribution.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
PSX Developer: Don't need a software Emulator... (Score:1)
Hmmm...
Once upon a time I needed to run an PC application. I had a Mac. So I could buy a PC or I could get an emulator. I got the emulator (SoftAT from Insignia Solutions). I was able to run the application and get the job done.
A useful emulator, imagine that.
SteveM
By Definition it is Stealing (Score:1)
Yes it is. That is what states do. They define the laws. So if the state says its stealing, then it is stealing.
Now, that doesn't mean that it is morally wrong, just legally wrong. And in some places, you can even change the laws.
SteveM
Cry me a RIVER.... (Score:1)
It's all a question of market economics. As long as people are willing to pay $150 for a console and $60-$70 per game, that's what the game developers will be charging. Consumers have the loudest voice in the world...their money. As a group, they just don't have the discipline necessary to use it effectively.
I disagree (Score:1)
give me your email address... (Score:1)
How does one make ROMs? (Score:1)
There's no such thing as stealing information (Score:1)
There's no such thing as stealing information (Score:1)
From the back page of the Star Fox 64 manual (Score:1)
Here's Nintendo's attempt at a Microsoft-like EULA, taken from the back of the Star Fox 64 manual. I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't seem to have much to it in the way of legal force against ROM copiers. It should only hurt people who distribute ROM images.
IMPORTANT:
WARNING: Copying of any Nintendo game is illegal and is strictly prohibited by domestic and international copyright laws. "Back-up" or "archival" copies are not authorized and are not necessary to protect your software. Violators will be prosecuted.
This Nintento game is not designed for use with any unauthorized copying device. Use of any such device will invalidate your Nintendo product warranty. Nintendo (and/or any Nintendo licensee or distributor) is not responsible for any damage or loss caused by the use of any such device. If use of any such device causes your game to stop operating, disconnect the device carefully to avoid damage and resume normal game play. If your game ceases to operate and you have no device attached to it, please contact your local authorized Nintendo retailer.
The contents of this notice do not interfere with your statutory rights.
It seems to me that the first paragraph is a load of hot air, trying to scare people who don't know their rights. Who do they think they're fooling, saying that backup copies aren't necessary? I don't think they'll replace it if it's stolen. Fair use should come into play here. The third paragraph pretty much admits this.
The second paragraph seems to be the one with actual legal merit. I would assume that they can set whatever terms they want for the warranty. But, I don't think that ROM pirates care whether the warranty's voided when they make the copies.
Nintendo should just stick to clear-cut, valid legal ground. They should go after ROM archives, and give incentives ($$$ rewards?) for ISPs to rat out ROM sites that they host. This would be much better than holding ISP's responsible. This way, Nintendo upholds its rights, the ISP's aren't harassed, and only the pirates pay. Everyone wins, in the long run.
Guns/emulator comparison not quite valid (Score:1)
The trouble here is, Nintendo has had trouble fighting the real lawbreakers (distributors of illegal copies of their games), so now they're going after an easier to find target: the emulators themselves. The legality of writing an emulator is an issue wholly separate from the legality of distributing copies of commercial ROMS. Nintendo would like people to think otherwise, and judging by the harsh response the UltraHLE has gotten, Nintendo seems to have succeeded.
Warez DOES hurt.. (Score:1)
Four years ago a good friend of mine quit his job and released a small graphics animation product as shareware. In 6 months the program was downloaded over 7,000 times, but he only received ~20 registrations (it was only a $30 program). When we began browsing warez and crack sites, we found out why. The program had already been cracked and few people are going to pay for a program they can get for free.
Undaunted he began work on a second program, another piece of graphics software, and released it again as shareware. Same story, 12,000 downloads, 40 registrations, and a crack in less than a week.
Next he came up with an idea that should have solved the situation. He combined the two programs into one, and released the original two programs as freeware. The new prog was dubbed the "Professional Version" and offered NOTHING that wasn't available in the other progs, except the integration. This program was not released as shareware, but was available via his company website in an encrypted file. Voila, over 400 registrations in two weeks...then it too was cracked (it was only a $45 prog!). After the crack/decryption info was released he received ZERO registrations.
Finally, after 3 years of wasted time, over $30,000 in personal monetary losses, and after enduring a lawsuit by his investor, he closed the company and laid off his 2 employees. So, can you still say piracy doesn't hurt anybody? This guys entire business was destroyed because some warez doodz decided that his software was worth stealing and that it "really can't hurt anything". The only good thing that came out of this situation was the eventual purchase of his source and rights by Equlibrium for $40000. Then again, a $10,000 profit for 3 years worth of work isn't anything to brag about...
The timing bothers me. (Score:1)
But when people can play Metal Gear Solid and Zelda 64 in emulation? THAT causes a stir. Thats 'cutting edge' technogloy in dem dar emulator and thus of interest. The internet helps distribute the word but the word is of interest because it is relevant to a much large segment of the gaming populance.
What? (Score:1)
Well, for starters the "scene" is not dead, and to base its artificial death on some game console emulator being dropped is a tad harsh, and naive.
Now I will agree 100% that IRC is very close to death, but it has been that way for the past 4 years, and that is very unsettling. But the Wares scene itself is to blame. Remember when there were more trainers than actual releases. I hate to get off track, so in closing let me assure you that the EMU scene has not gone to meet its maker, it's just following the Adam Smith economic way, and the 'Invisible Hand' has it by the balls. It will balance out; everything balances out 'at the edge of chaos.'
For more information check these out...
http://www.emux.com/
http://www.bochs.com/whatisbochs.html
http://www.davesclassics.com/
http://www.psemu.com/
And of course a nice lil' board to help you write your own EMUlator...
http://wwwboard.tmk.com/programming.html
Well sorry to sound angry, I just don't want people thinking its DEAD.
Sincerely,
TS
Then Why Buy Bullets? (Score:1)
Then GNU must be wrong (Score:1)
It's hard to imagine a more egregious violation of the rights of a person than to demand that he give his work away for free. If you choose to give away your work for free, well and good. If not, it's your choice and no one should be able to tell you otherwise.
Of course, RMS argues that copyrights are not a fundamental right. After all, the American constitution sees this as a practical thing, a device to stimulate creativity. Open source advocates say that they're willing to work for free. Well good for them and good for society. But the fact is, most people aren't so altruistic -- so copyrights remain a necessary device, and recognizing and working with the limitations of human character is the hallmark of a practical, functional Democracy; doing otherwise would be an experiment in Communism.
But practical issues aside, it is hard to see how we can have a free society where the rights of authors are not respected.
What is being Pirated???? (Score:1)
joew
The Reality of Emulator's and it Scene (Score:1)
-Brother Grifter
true identities (Score:1)
If the makers of UltraHLE are telling the truth... (Score:1)
They knew what they were doing: one-upping other coders in the scene. How cocky is it to proclaim that your software "...may well be the emulation release of 1999" (README.TXT, line 11)... in January of 1999?
The makers of UltraHLE intended this emulator to be used with ROM images with full knowledge that the vast minority of ROM image owners own the ROM itself. The author of this open letter is right: they acquiesced when they should have stood up for the appropriate philosophy.
Of course, this is easy for me to say, because Nintendo's lawyers aren't breathing down my neck...
Is it all illegal? (Score:1)
Case in point.
1. dosemu
This is an emulator, believe it or not. Yet I have never run into anyone who would call use of this illegal or promoting illegality. If I have a properly purchased piece of software, it's not illegal for me to run it under the emu, is it?
I think here, we really must be more specific in which *kinds* of emulators should be banned into oblivion.
2. This may sound daft to everyone else, but I'd love to have a TI-99/4A emu. Why?
Because TI BASIC and TI Extended BASIC are definitely a lot more fun than some modern programming languages (and anything done my M$ since DOS 3.3). (Also, remember, it took the PC until 1989 to match the TI-99/4A in ability, which was discontinued in '82 or '83.)
I know it's been done, but I'd love to know how it was done. And, besides, there are some fun BASIC games I still have the listings for... (Any one here remember the Home Computing Magazines?)
I do agree that most emulators released nowadays are to mimic the entertainment systems. (There is no way I'm going to call a Nintendo a full-fledged computer.) These emulators are based around being able to get the games to play, because those machines were specifically *designed* to play games. So, yes, these emulators do promote piracy, copyright infringement, etc. Yes, these emulators are illegal.
Yet, do not blanket condemn all emulators. Take into consideration the various types of emulators out there before you decide to toss them all on the proverbial bonfire.
And, if you need me, I'm going to be translating TI-99/4A programs for my PC.
Emulators vs Warez (Score:1)
I think that piracy is something everyone of us does, regardless. One of you must have borrowed a very good game form a friend and copy it to save a few bucks. I did piracy when I was young (and stupid) currently I own at least half the software that runs through my hands, not because I renegated or anything, just because I buy what I think it's worth. The emulation scene is one of the areas in the computer industry, that most piracy has existed ever. It is not the first time it happens, nor the last you will see.
What happened to the UltraHLE is nothing but typical when a product that is meant for testing results in an awesome idea. There are the people who do this for technical WOWNESS, others because they are too cheap to go out and buy a Nintendo 64 or Playstation.
I collect for example MAME Roms, because I loved that era of coin ups, and thouggh there are great games today outthere I do not like most of them. (Nothing like a good game of Mr. Do or Pacman..). I personally like the emulation scene because I find it fascinating to run Mario or Zelda, or Donkey Kong 3, or what not in my PC. I think people who create this kind of emulation software have to remember thatif you posted the release of a material you know that people will exploit it there. It might be bad, but some people just do not realize it. Any innocent soul that is not oriented to this, might listen to Aerosmith and think, Hmmm why buy the cd when I can record it on a tape... I dunno.. blah it happens the same with the PC and the Scenes we see around. I guess what I am trying to say is that piracy didn't pop out of no where or behind your back like a naughty green elf. It has been there for ages and it will be for more evenso.
We are the ones who forge the changes of the future, we make ideas that work for purposeful matters. As long as there are people, who BUY the software, or Cartridges of Nintendo or what not, it doesn't matter where they run. I personally will go and buy my Zelda, but I do nto want to play it on a console.. bah I have a twin P2-450, with Voodoo2... I want to run it there... and I will thanks to this emulators... Nintendo nor any opther house should worry about this, because it is what drives the future to them... Imagine that all this great games that are made for consoles can be eventually run on your PC... this is what people should be looking for. Not at the criminal side or the cheap side.
I explained in the beginning my background, notfor yo ual lto think I am a big pirate now... All the people who were with me in the Warez Scene, hold potential jobs, or are incredible wizards of technology. The availability of the amount of things we used to learn through this years let us be one of a kind on this industry. Now 20 years later, I look behind me, and I see that even what we used to do as a hobby, was bad yeah.. but I look forth now and it helps me see that all that we did has pushed technology forth and now we are enjoying of it.
Screw Pirates, keep doing this marvelous technology so that our generations and the next to come can live thorugh this moments that mark time and make people like you immortal.
Keep your fingers on the keyboard...
The Wombat
aka: Syntax Error, -=dPS=-
Gilberto J. Palau
gjpalau@kinergia.com
Reader of Slashdot, Ex-Pirate, and Technology Guru
who cares? (Score:1)
An accountant has no obligation to *GIVE* away the money that he saves, an architect has no obligation to *GIVE* away the buildings that he designs, and a computer programmer has no obligation to *GIVE* away the programs or source code that they write.
All of these people have spent a great deal of time and effort in learning and perfecting their trade, and then making their masterpiece. If they wish to sell it, that is their right. If they should so choose to give it away out of pride of their work, or simple kind-heartedness, then they can be lauded for this gesture. If they wish to keep it in mothballs hidden in their attic, no matter how much of a waste that may be, that is the right of the person who created it, or of whomever those rights may be sold to.
"profits" produce software?? try to catch up (Score:1)
Lack of "profits" didn't prevent the emulator from being produced either, so so much for this theory.
Pretending thoughts are property is antithetical to capitalism. (Ever notice that the lefty types who are most leery about property rights in generals are exactly the ones who start foaming at the mouth in defence of arbitrary "intellectual" property rights.")
A very nice article (Score:1)
-[noam]
#emu EFnet
www.zophar.net
Re: Console profits (Score:1)
Damaged Cybernetics Responds... (Score:1)
1) Nesticle, 8bit Nintendo emulator, was never an open source code project.
2) This lamer never claimed to author the source code, nor did he change the author's name to his own.
3) This lamer never released Nesticle as his own work, all copyrights (if any) were left intact. The archive was a snapshot of the author's work-in-progresss.
4) The source code to Nesticle was obtained with minimal effort. Sardu, the author, enabled Windows 95 file sharing over TCP/IP.
5) And this lamer also happen to maintain one of the first underground oriented websites, Damaged Cybernetics, from April 4th 1995 to April 4th 1997. Mainly offering support to those with console copiers for the Super Nintendo, Nintendo, Sega Genesis, GameBoy and other systems in forms of programming tools, hardware documentation, source code, cracking tools, etc...
Released an article in 1995, describing the process of Authenticating Microsoft CD Keys, distributed with C source code. c2.org's Hack Microsoft contest linked this article and source code to thier site.microsoft contest.
In 1995, Netscape first released Javascript. Also in 1995, we released one of the first hostile javascript code and Netscape 2.0 mailto: flaw
Eventually TyphoonZ (Chris Hickman) joined up with Damaged Cybernetics by affliating Archaic Ruins to supplement more emulator specific content. Using the existing popularity of the site, Chris was able to help spread emulator related news, releases, and related files.
The Brain joined us in 1996 (with the help of Chris). He wrote one of the first working Super Nintendo Emulators known as Virtual SuperMagiCom (VSMC) and released it under the Damaged Cybernetics Label.
In mid-1996 in retaliation to Compress Da Audio (CDA) (first mp3 piracy group) ideals of keeping mp3 tools and how-to's a secret. Damaged Cybernetics spawned off a small sub-group, Digital Audio Crew (DAC), to counteract. Both groups worked together, DAC releasing mp3 titles over various ftp sites and irc networks, and Damaged Cybernetics dedicate a portion of their website dedicated to audio piracy; tools, faqs, how-to's. This portion of the site was maintained by Namkrad. Under the DC Label, Namkrad contributed the mp3 ID3 tagging format, which is used by all mp3 players today.
There are other members and other accomplishments, but pointless to even acknowledge, if ppl like the person i'm replying to, thinks he knows all and is all that... and i quote:
"The problem with the emulation crowd is it tends to attract the younger-pirate because I'm kool-crowd."
Donald Moore (MindRape)
Damaged Cybernetics
E-mail: damaged@futureone.com
LISTEN UP ONCE AND FOR ALL YOU MERCANARIES!!! (Score:1)
EMULATION IS AND WILL NEVER DIE!!!! YOU JUST CANNOT TAKR AWAY SOMETHING THE WHOLE WORLD ENJOYS AND APPRECIATE THE TECHNOLOGICAL BREAKTHRU OF IT!!!!!
What do you expect? (Score:1)
They all go on about how "it was spose to be a technical test"
I'm not into the "warez" scene,.. Im into classic gaming. UltraHLE was yes a very well made emu but it emulates boring games, N64 suck IMHO,..
So can we all just get over this.
Nintendo and Playstation (Score:1)
Now, if Nintendo, Sega, and Sony make money from he games, why would they try to restrict the distribution of emulators if it would increase the legitimate market for games for those platforms?
The answer may be found in the definition of engineering "clean room" clones. Clones of software can in some certain circumstances be created. To do so requires one team to generate a specification (the expected behaviour) by examining the original software, and a second team to rewrite the software based on the specification the first team wrote. Phoenix created the first legal clone of the IBM PC with this technique. Earlier, makers of Apple clones had been driven out of business by Apple because they had just copied Apple's ROMS.
As I understand it, Nintendo and the other console manufacturers require the signing of contracts agreeing to pay per-game licencing fees in exchange for access to documentation and tools for programming the consoles. As somebody pointed out, those tools have often included a hardware component for supporting PC-based development. Hardware can be patented - but software can't (at least in theory - we won't get into talking about RSA). Use of those tools without licencing from the console makers is usually quickly followed by nasty copyright and (possibly) patent infringement lawsuits.
Which leads us to why these companies would be scared spitless of somebody emulating their consoles in software. IF (and this is a big if) the software emulation was created without the use of documentation from the console makers, it could be used to create new "clean room" games. If somebody is actually going to go to the trouble of generating a software emulation of the console, then how soon before development tools follow WHICH ARE OUTSIDE THE COPYRIGHT CONTROL OF THE CONSOLE MAKERS? How soon before games show up which no longer pay licencing fees to Nintendo, Sony, et al?
If this happens then their whole business model
is obsolete. It would certainly explain why the console manufacturers are so anti-emulation, it could break their oligarchic hold on the console industry and it puts their record profits at risk.
So why did the Ultra-HLE people pull their software? Well, they may not have enough money to properly fight Nintendo in court, and if they lost it would set a VERY BAD legal precedent. It's better to let someone with deeper pockets like Connectix fight that battle.
Or perhaps the Ultra-HLE developers used some copyrighted Nintendo development tools in developing their emulators and didn't use a "clean room" approach to develop their emulator. In this case, Nintendo could win a copyright violation case against them.
If this analysis is correct, then it is in the console makers' interest to spend every dime of profit they make to quash emulation of modern day consoles, not because their profits will decrease
due to loss of games sales to piracy, but because their ability to make money from purchased games is also at risk. If I were one of the developers of an N64 emulators, I would think carefully about going head to head with a Japanese daibatsu(sp?).
I sure hope Connectix wins though!
WHY? because COPYING IS NOT STEALING (dorks) (Score:1)
Emulation (Score:1)
I am willing to discuss the topic with anyone who is interested. My email account is Mugare@netscape.net. Tell me your opinion.
Re: From the back page of the Star Fox 64 manual (Score:1)
Of course it doesn't sound that way when your first read it.
Very nicely done (in a damn corp way)
Nintendo and Playstation (Score:1)
A good example of this is a recent bill passed that made it illegal to have adult-xxx material on the internet unless you block it from minors (via credit card or some other means). This law went into affect a few months ago, but all sites are still wide open. Why, because a judge ruled that it may be unconstitutional and the law's activation has been postponed until it can be heard in court (maybe years from now).
Also, just because there's a bill proposed, doesn't mean it makes it to law. A few years ago there was a bill proposed that would make software public domain after only (I believe) 3 years. This wasn't passed (although it would have been great for retrogamers)!
Lawmakers many times will pass bills that have certain items in it that they know will be stripped out by the courts (like the internet adult-xxx law). Then, why do they do it? Simple, so they look good to the people they represent. I believe the same goes for this security device bill. Big software companies have probably been courting lawmakers so they would stick this into a bill. The lawmakers can pass the bill and do their part, even if only weeks later it will be put on hold till it can be heard in court.
Talk about a bunch of people all spinning their wheels and not getting anything done!
Tim Eckel, Arcade@Home
http://www.ArcadeAtHome.com