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Games Entertainment

Playstation Emulator Will Ship 55

Posted by CmdrTaco from the score-one-for-the-good-guys dept.
Pont writes "Sony failed to get an injunction against Bleem, a Playstation emulator for the PC. " This is a nice step in the right direction for an industry struggling to come to grips with annoying little problems like emulation. Way to go Bleem. Now how about a Linux Port?
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Playstation Emulator Will Ship More

Playstation Emulator Will Ship

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  • This is not good. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The problem with you argument is that Sony really makes little or no money off playstation consoles. Their real cash cow is the licensing that goes along with it. The emulator is far from perfect though, some games play, some have distortion, it just depends on the game. I don't think sony will have to worry too much.

    -----------------------------------
    Then again, what do I know?
  • Posted by OGL:

    I tried to contact the author about perhaps releasing the source to Bleem. According to the #bleem irc channel, reaching him by email is impossible. I was told to wait on irc for him to come back, but I got bored and left...hopefully there's some easier way of contacting him.

    -W.W.

  • Good! (Score:1)

    by Enahs ( 1606 )
    civil disobedience....

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Kinda like civil war--
    GENT 1: "I'm sorry sir, but I must shoot you."

    GENT 2: "Quite all right, good chap. Do go ahead and kill me--but be warned; I will be returning fire."

    GENT 1: "Very good, sir..."

    *BAM!*
  • Yeah. Exactly.

    I'm thinking roughly along the lines of what Nintendo did with that weird cart for the SNES that allowed you to play GameBoy games. Basically, the games were enhanced.

    Why not make PSX a VM spec and add enhancements that games could optionally take advantage of? This could potentially allow PSX and PSX2 developers to add, say, optional multiplayer modes to their games. :^)

    It's just a thought.
  • This is no different from the PSX2 running the original PSX games (which it does). I'm not sure if Sony will still licence PSX games, or if it's just planning to let them die out. Also you have to remember that the PSX is Sony's best-selling piece of equipment of all time. Probably not everyone is going to just throw out their PSXs (hopefully, anyway). I think old PSXs and PSX capabilities in the PSX2 offer a far greater threat to the PSX2 than this emulator would.
  • ...Bow before the Almighty EMULATION!

  • Like the gentleman stated above, I'm all for emulation but only when the actual hardware doesn't exist anymore or is very scarce. But in Sony's case, I'd make an exception since they make the bulk of their revenue on licensing, not on the sales of the PSX unit.

    Bottom line, I'd pay for this product provided that it works well and that it runs under linux.

    To bleem (or connectix)if you're reading this: If you do commit to a linux port, please, I beg you! Try to code it so that it can take advantage of SMP systems.
  • By your very own argument, then SONY is selling a console for the Warez Pups... After all, with a simple modchip, whcih everyone (even your grandma) has, you can play gold CDs!
  • I want to point out that Bleem is 100% assembly code
  • Leaving the piracy issue aside, why would anyone pay $50 for an emulator, when for about $100 they could have a real Playstation with a PSX controller?

    The controller being key, because most PC joysticks and gamepads don't have enough buttons, and those that do have them in the wrong places to be instinctive to use while playing the game. Plus, the basic Sony controller is pretty hard to beat for quality.

    Is the picture on the emu better or something?

    Lastly, the whole reason I own a PSX is that it's a completely simple source of instant gratification. No patches to install, no drivers to download, just pop the CD in and cycle the power. No emulator is ever ever going to be that simple to use.

    Jon

  • If Sony writes an emulator they are nolonger "console-only". While this may seem good (for Sony), it is not. Now, instead of Sony and a few others having complete control over the games released - they have to compete with hackers and others that can enter the market with little expense. Besides this, there is no such thing as "piracy" protection on PC's because someone will eventually crack the protection an release it to everyone. Lastly, Sony does not want to extend the life of any platform. The tech industry thrives off of forced upgrades brought on by killing old products - especially the software industry (this is why OSS is a much better choice).
  • I was under the impression that Sony made most of their playstation profits off royalties from all the games written for the platform (I know they get money for each game sold -- I assume it from licencing the base libraries), rather than the hardware itself.

    So if it was possible to run playstation games on more platforms, more games would be sold and Sony would make more money. So by selling an emulator for PCs/Macs/Unix themselves, they would be expanding their custommer base.

    It would also lower the entry cost for developing for the platform (a CD burner is a lot cheaper than a development model playstation -- you could probably also afford a normal playstation to test the games on with the money you saved :).

    Maybe Sony is annoyed that it is not them who is profiting from the emulators. With Sony's inside knowledge, they should be able to write quite an efficient one. Such an emulator may also extend the life of a platform such as the playstation when it gets superceeded (noone still buys sega master systems, but if you could play the games on your computer, some people may consider buying the games).

    There is the argument about pirating, but you get that problem with every platform (like the cartridge dumpers for older systems like Mega Drive). It is impossible to prevent piracy of this type while still allowing people to make a backup of the software they bought (which I think they should be allowed to do -- they bought a licence to use the software, not just the distribution medium).
  • That's an urban legend. Fact is since they cut down on parts, they make about $20 per Playstation sold, and about $7-8 for every game. Yes, they still end up making the majority of their money off of games the way Gillette makes their money off of razors. But I thought you might want to know.
  • Sony needs to abandon PSX in order to compete against N64, Dreamcast, and N2k...

    PSX will only slow it down when those machines unlease killer games on the market...

    Backwards compatibility is a strong selling point, but it isn't actually in Sony's favor for half the world to write PSX games when everyone is buying and playing Dreamcast games... People will migrate to prettier, faster, cooler games, and Sony wants it to be with PSX2 by offering PSX compatibility...

    However, with PC hardware and Mac hardware, PSX will be good enough, and still would deny Sony the licensing and marketing muscle when PSX2 is out, because the PSX1 would be dead were it not for the PCs and Macs...

    AS
  • "I wonder if (a) the emulator would play genuine Japanese imports as well (imports != warez) or if it's US-only"
    Reportedly, there will be three versions of Bleem!. One for the US/Canada, one for Europe, and one for Japan. You can only play the games for each region on the version made for that region (i.e. no Japanese games on the US version).

    "and (b) if the graphics would be bug-for-bug compatible or the ugly polygon distortion found in every Playstation racing game ever made would be fixed."
    Bleem! will support D3D hardware acceleration up to 1024x768 32-bit which will result in most games looking better than they do on the Playstation. They have pictures on their site from Gran Turismo which are amazing.

    "I probably wouldn't pay for the emulator though. I'd much rather see a Free Software version. That way if it sucks I could chuck it or try to fix it -- either way all I would lose is time. (A lot more time for the latter...)"
    I don't know, but if you order now it's only $24.95 - very cheap for what you get. I would rather it be free of course, but when someone work that is that good, 25 bucks isn't that much to pay for it.


  • I guess what I should have said was "If the emulator came with source code on the disk and full distribution rights of any modifications you made, then sure I would buy it. Of course then you could just download the source code instead, but you'd probably need the latest MS compiler to compile anyway, so that wouldn't do me any good."

    The problem is Free has too many meanings. Sorry if I mislead you in that.

    As for 1, I wonder if you can buy the Japanese version if you're in the US.

    I guess 2 just means the games would look how they're supposed to look, not how the regular Playstation hardware renders them.

    Also on that note, I wonder if the Playstation 2 would be bug-for-bug compatible or "correct"? Oh well, I'll just have to wait on that one. :(
  • Emulation is just fine for me, as long as no NDAs were broken to create the emulator. Even though I'm no fan of NDAs in general, you have to play by the laws still (or try civil disobedience and wind up in jail).

    I wonder if (a) the emulator would play genuine Japanese imports as well (imports != warez) or if it's US-only and (b) if the graphics would be bug-for-bug compatible or the ugly polygon distortion found in every Playstation racing game ever made would be fixed.

    I probably wouldn't pay for the emulator though. I'd much rather see a Free Software version. That way if it sucks I could chuck it or try to fix it -- either way all I would lose is time. (A lot more time for the latter...)
  • Sony actually loses money on the hardware; it's a loss leader so they can sell more games. And since the emu will let them sell more games, they should SUPPORT Bleem, not take out an RIAA/MP3 style knee-jerk injuction. The Bleem people didn't steal any intellectual property and invested a ton of time in developing Bleem.

    It's far from warez puppism - this is free competition in action.

  • I can only hope that this will not get a reaction from Sony/vendors of upping the prices to 'make up for lossess due to piracy'. I buy all my games and the only reason I would get a Mod-chip is to play imports (I hate not being able to play Parasite Eve!!). PSX games are expensive enough as it is, I wouldn't want another 20% tacked onto it, just because some immoral people decide that they want to play pirated PSX games on their PCs.

    If you believe software vendors increase their prices due to "losses" incurred from piracy, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.

    Anybody with the smallest clue will recogize that this is not how economies of information products work.

    The per unit cost for a product like a PSX game is basically 0. This means the retail cost structure has nothing to do with supply. It has EVERYTHING to do with demand.

    Compare: If you want to make more money with a conventional material good, you jack up the margins, and hope that demand is enough that the decreased sales wont kill you. This only works if the margin is a (relatively) small percentage of the goods' cost.

    An information-based good has zero cost of production. This means that no matter how many units you sell, your margin is always 100%. What does this mean? This means increasing your price gets you nowhere. The assumption is that you are already at the price point where people are willing to buy your product. i.e. if you were to raise it any more, the marginal increase in sales $$ is less than the marginal decrease in sales # of units.

    What does this mean? If there is piracy, the only way you can compete is by LOWERING the price (duh).

    Look at it this way if you don't understand economics.. you are competing with a "company" (pirate) that is "selling" (giving) an identical product of yours for $0 (for free). How do you compete? By INCREASING the price? Please. Don't be a moron.

    You can't compete with piracy by raising prices. Ever. You can only trust that the government intervenes for you, and prosecutes the pirates. Our economy can't handle products that are inexhaustible (like information) without government intervention.

    That piracy INCREASES the cost to the consumer is the biggest UL ever. But people like you continue to buy the corporate line. Pathetic.

    If a company raises their price "due to piracy", its only because people like you believe them.

  • Good! (Score:1)

    by Xero ( 19560 )
    I was messing around with the demo last night and was able to get it to play some Japanese games. One of the games was PAL and bleem actually ran it in widescreen mode.
  • here [bleem.com].
  • I agree with your statement about coding in assembly when not needed. C is definitely a better language for top down development. However, on a side note (again, as you mentioned) (and not to start a flame) -- well written C can be faster than poorly written assemly, and vice versa. To quote ABC, The more you know.... It's all about knowing everything you can about what you're programming.
  • Speaking of joysticks, you can also re-cable an off-the-shelf Playstation joystick and use it under Windows as a regular joystick... forget where the driver is, but it works with everything on windows as well as many emulators I've got...

    just my 2 hundredths of a dollar...
  • Also on that note, I wonder if the Playstation 2 would be bug-for-bug compatible or "correct"? Oh well, I'll just have to wait on that one.

    All information I have heard have said that it will be 'exactly' compatible. Seing as the backwards compability is achieved by adding the same stuff that's in the old PSX, I'd imagine it would be exactly like the old system.

    There was some talk about using the new processors to real-time improve the old games, but Sony has denied that, at least in public. Who knows, if Bleem! is a hit, maybe they will change their minds, just to compete. :)

  • Anyone with the smallest clue? Don't be a moron? Pathetic?

    Thank you for your constructive critique, that was possible to find among the ad hominems. You'll forgive me if I don't continue this discussion. Although I don't mind being flamed, I have no interest in participating in such discussions. You believe what you want, I believe what I want. I obviously don't have a doctorate in economics, like others. *snort*
  • In the case of a PSX emulator, I would think the greatest danger in it, as far as piracy is concerned, is that it is much safer to 'enable' piracy on it.

    On a real PSX, you need to solder a little chip on the hardware, and on the newer models, it is not exactly something anyone can do, those are thin lines to mess with. Not to mention that if you break it, or if it breaks later, you would look rather silly handing it in for reparations...

    On an emulator, all that's really necessary is for some wiseguy to crack it, removing whatever mechanisms are placed there to require original games. The difference is, although you might 'break' the program, there will be no embarassing questions when you want it 'repaired'.

    Perhaps it will be difficult to crack this emulator to enable playing of copied CDs, but it will happen. For the same reason as people crack PC games/programmes, for the same reason someone created the mod-chip, for the same reason some people cheat and steal given the chance.

    I can only hope that this will not get a reaction from Sony/vendors of upping the prices to 'make up for lossess due to piracy'. I buy all my games and the only reason I would get a Mod-chip is to play imports (I hate not being able to play Parasite Eve!!). PSX games are expensive enough as it is, I wouldn't want another 20% tacked onto it, just because some immoral people decide that they want to play pirated PSX games on their PCs.
  • There *IS* a interface for PSX controllers for the PC. Go to http://www.ziplabel.com/dpadpro/index.html for a Windows driver, and sample source. Linux's joystick driver appears to support it, too.
  • I am hoping this will sum it all up. Sony doesn't exactly make money off of their consoles in the beginning because they have years of developement costs to pay off. SO they have to sell a certain amount before they can make there money back. These new systems cost a lot when they first come out then the prices drop to around $150 dollars. There is always going to be the kid who has to have the latest and the greatest with parents to buy them it to boot. So they are losing money in the beginning but I sure have made it back at this point in time.

    Sony is already subjected to pirating. Just wait Bleems emulator will get pirated too. If sony was smart they would work out a lincensing deal with Bleem make money for a system that is going to be obsolete in anonther year, for nothing. Make it a SONY endorsed product and work through these channels and branch out in to a newer market. I might get the software even more if SONY was helping produce it. I don't ever see myself buying another console anyway. I know I am going to catch on fire for this. But they could team up with DIVX and keep there software from getting pirate. YEA RIGHT! The fact remains people don't always have the means for pirating files. Everyone copies music CD's what is the difference. If I can't get the software pirated I am not going to buy it anyway and the company isn't any richer regardless. Open markets just capture more of an audience in the long run. They everyone benifits. Next we are going to have a court battle where SEGA sues SONY for having a monopoly on cons

    thoughts comments, file them under trash.

    ~pearcec

    Leadership is action, not position.
  • Hrm... the Gravis Gamepad Pro is modelled after the Sony controllers (and is a hell of a lot better designed IMHO), and the Gravis Xterminator is similar to the Sega controllers. With commercial emulators, there is an even stronger market incentive for companies to make PC controllers resemble console controllers. And all modern computer monitors support higher resolution than television. The emulator could probably use a higher frame size than the PSX as well, so you could have a much sharper, much more detailed picture.
  • I've pre-ordered Bleem! for a few reasons. It does indeed look better than the real PlayStation because it supports hardware acceleration. Filtered textures at 1024x768 beats the non-filtered 320x224 of the PlayStation. Also, games can run at higher frame rates thanks to the greater fill rate of PC 3D accelerators. Having virtual memory cards is nice too; having to swap cards in and out or shuffle data around can be a pain.

    This certainly isn't a PlayStation replacement though. It by no means runs all the games, and some that do run have flaws of one kind or another. Anyway, the whole experience of sitting with the PlayStation controller in hand in front of the TV is lost.

    The biggest reason I'm buying Bleem! is just because it's a very cool technical achievement and I think the people concerned deserve some payback for their hard work. Randy Linden is an extremely nice guy and a talented programmer.

    By the way, the whole thing is written in x86 assembly. That, coupled with its use of DirectX for sound and graphics likely make it tough to port to Linux.

    If you're interested in Bleem!'s compatibility, here's a shameless plug for my little webpage listing the games I've tried. I have another 11 games to add to the page (been busy with work and Rollercoaster Tycoon :-) ).

    http://members.tripod.com/bleemgraham/ [tripod.com]
  • I got a question! How come my G3 Mac runs playstation games so well yet games for the mac suck so hard?

    Ahhh... i'll sit here waiting for Arena with you Linux geeks. ;)

    But yeah, Sony absorb a loss on the hardware, it's weird they're so against the emulators. I guess they're freaked about the piracy potential. but don't worry -- they'll cave on this like they're doing with mp3s!

    schmack.
  • I don't know where I stand on the issue, but another problem facing Sony is that these emulators are NOT 100% Playstation compatible.

    THE biggest advantage of a console is not the shear number of people who have one, but the fact that they are all the same and compatible. You don't have to list a million system requirements on the box. You don't have to worry if buggy OpenGL drivers will cause angry gamers to call your support line.

    Now, however, there is a platform claiming to play playstation games, which doesn't play all of them. If the emulators become popular, then the game makers will, due to market force, have to program their games in a way that the emulators can handle. I can understand why Sony wouldn't want that to happen.
  • Hahah, if he released the source, then who will buy it? Bahaha, if you are in need of a psx emu for linux. Go code one.
  • Duh, just a phrase, trying to state that a lot of people have their psx modded. My grandma is seven feet under.
  • I am for emulations when the hardware doesn't exist anymore or is very scarce. But I disagree with making exception, cuz then, who is to say? who is to draw the lines. Hrm, linux could use a good PSX emulator to draw some people over, but ahem, that is piracy, so I am not coding any, but if you buy me a SMP system , ahem, ;)
  • Console makes lose money @ first when a console is launched because they have to sell it cheap, and memory is expensive, through the years, memory price falls, and they begin to make the money. The EMU will not sell more games!!! it will only make more people buy a CDR and start playing games on PC. The Bleem people did steal reverse all this crap themselves. I have done some PSX dev underground, and everyone knows the main guys who did the work on PSX and reversed the info. sure the guys posted the infos up for free, so others can learn, SONY knew about the PSX underground development, but really didn't care, because we were not making emulators. just coding for the console. But with this, their next plan, will be to bully underground developers, if they can stop us from releasing info on their console, then they make the job harder for dumb like companies like Bleem to release emu. Thus, my been against Bleem.
  • SONY wants the PSX base to last, that is why PSX2 is backward compatible with PSX. Hell, if the NES could have lasted, Nintendo would have loved it.
  • you are dumb, I have coded in lots of asm, x86, mips, sparc, motorola, z80, and so on and so forth. and anyone in their right mind knows C is better when it gets the job done. asm is only needed for tight fast loops, and in cases when memory and cpu are small. a good C program will destroy a bad asm programmer, the truth is that C compilers now, can do a darn good job of translating C to asm, and the truth is that there are not many good asm programs. And another truth is that they probalby don't want to make it obvious that the src is dirty, so if it is all asm, it becomes hard to analyze.
    bleh
  • There is nothing wrong with a wrapper, almost, but an actually emulation that is being sold is wrong,the technique used by ultrahle is using wrappers when it cannot emulate, the good thing about this, is that only a few games can be played, not all games, just piracy level is low. But still, there is still piracy, which sucks, I am for people coding emulator for fun, but not for selling it, when we code emulators, companies can't target individuals, cuz we are not out to make money on them, but merely coding for the fun and challege.
    but when it is sold, it makes like hard for underground developers. When this Bleem crap does come out, I will make sure it is free on my website. No one should pay for it. if they are going to make my favorite console company lose money, they can count on not making any.
  • I am talking about video game emulators! not an emulator, like amiga or commordore, I will prefer to run OS on real hardware.
    The source is not clean, I am a psx underground coder, and some guys (few) did the main work on reversing psx, and it was after these guys released their infos for free, that all these PSX emulators started flowing. Duh, is bleem in their right mind going to say that their code is dirty? of course not. But they are the biggest liars if they claim, they didn't get infos off the net, the MDEC, the GPU, the SPU, no easy shit to reverse. took lots of work to get done.
    We are not seeing a PSX2 soon, go and check the specs, we can see a PSX2 simulator, like ultrahle for n64, ultrahle is not an emulator, it simulates with wrappers, write an asm code for n64, run it on ultrahle and it dies. Go see the specs on PSX2. Nothing is uncrackable. It will only take a few minutes to hex it if you have some taco bell, and a few hours if you are drunk.
  • The problem is, if it's possible for someone to reverse engineer the implementation details of the PlayStation, it's certainly possible to circumvent the licensing. This is is most likely the problem which Sony and Nintendo are addressing with their go-get-em lawsuits. Not illegal copying of games. See the story about 3Dfx and Glide wrappers for another example.
  • but I don't support selling an emulator, if an emulation offers as much support as a hardware, who in their right mind will buy the hardware

    Emulators have been sold as shareware for a while. And needless to say, some people actually want the hardware - like those without a computer equipped enough to run it.

    this emulators is not 100% clean from original SONY information

    And how do you know the bleem! team isn't clean? The guys at Connectix reportedly did it clean - do you have a source proving that bleem! is reverse engineered or whatever you're claiming?

    no one is seeing a working emulator for PSX2 in the next 7 years

    Speculating on the next 7 years is not a wise thing to do. People said we'd never have a PSX or N64 emu, but we do. Besides, is making the hardware specs go through the roof the same as making emulators 500 times harder to code?

    Bleem claims that their emulator will only runs original CD, but this is crap

    Not if they coded it right. CVGS was crackable at first to mod chip it, but I have yet to see a mod chip patch for version 1.2. Never mind this - is the bleem! team responsible if users crack their programs? Is that grounds for a lawsuit?

  • I support emulation, but I don't support selling an emulator, if an emulation offers as much support as a hardware, who in their right mind will buy the hardware, thus SONY is losing. Emulators, especially consoles are coded with information from underground, and some of these information come to the underground, from pro dev who broke their NDA. thus this emulators is not 100% clean from original SONY information. On the other hand, it is easy for SONY to make emualtors 500 times harder to code, and I think they have done that with the PSX2, no one is seeing a working emulator for PSX2 in the next 7 years, unless an angry employeed releases the ASIC design for the CPU. In anycase, Bleem claims that their emulator will only run original CD, but that is crap, it will only take a few minutes to hex it to run gold, thus as far as I see it, This is nothing more but for the warez pups. even my grandma has her psx modded.

  • Sony doesn't lose... (Score:3)

    by Millennium ( 2451 ) on Tuesday April 13, 1999 @08:15AM (#1937165)
    Did you know that Sony loses money on every single PSX console it sells? Not only that, but it'll lose even more money on every PSX2.

    So how does Sony make money off the PSX? Software licensing. It gets a cut of every game made for the PlayStation. That's one hell of a lot of cash, way more than enough to make up for the losses it incurs selling the consoles. The point: Sony is actually saving money when emulators are sold; it does not lose them.

    Now, as to hexing the program to run gold: that's a lot harder than you would have us believe. Perhaps, eventually, someone will do it. But as you said, even your grandmother's PSX is modded; this won't promote piracy any more than the average modchip.

    Finally, you assume that the emulator cannot possibly be 100% cleanroom. I admit, I have my doubts as to how such an emulator could have been developed so quickly by so few people. But it is always possible. It's not easy by any stratch of the imagination, but it's possible.

  • Sony's problem? (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Shepherd ( 17338 ) on Tuesday April 13, 1999 @09:26AM (#1937166) Homepage
    Some issues that may or may not be true:
    Sony may *not* want the PSX game base to last longer, especially with their PSX2 close to fruitation. With a healthy emulator, their PSX games would not die; people would still release games for it and people would still buy them, especially as PC hardware gets more powerful.

    Imagine that the PSX2 is out, but likewise that the average PC is P3-450, with a TNT2 level accelerator as the base. Bear with me, this is like 2 years from now... Bleem has released version 2.0, fully backwards compatible with all original PSX games, but also enabled with additional features, now that the original PSX is no longer available on the market. Sony won't license out new games and SDKs in an effort to feed their PSX2 developer base, but a second tier game development community will arise around Bleem, shortchanging Sony of a bunch of profit.

    All the big players like Square and Konami will be releasing PSX2 games of course for the console, but dinky small no name companies who still want to reach a large audience and want to use a decent stable platform will code for the PSX1, plus additional features!

    Can you imagine? How ironic that the PSX emulators create a truly crossplatform gaming situation, with hardware acceleration and all! I don't know if this is the case, but if Bleem and Connectix VGS became standard on PCs and Macs, then M$'s Direct3d would lose some of its fire when such a stable, available, and open platform exists...

    AS

  • Sony's problem? (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Shepherd ( 17338 ) on Tuesday April 13, 1999 @09:48AM (#1937167) Homepage
    But a difference in PSX1 vs PSX2 is that Sony controls who gets SDKs and who can develop or license for the console...

    If there were a software only package, all Bleem or Connectix have to do is release their own libraries and such for development on the PSX, and Sony loses control of their baby...

    In the software emulation scenario, Sony loses all control and profits from licensing of the SDKs and libraries because competitive distrobutions exist for alternative platforms...

    In the PSX2 case, Sony could just deny approval of games if a company were to release a PSX1 game in the PSX2 era...

    AS

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