Commodore 64 Runs Again On the iPhone 146
Hugh Pickens writes "Stephen Williams reports in the NY Times that the app recreating some of the Commodore's seminal retro games, including Le Mans, Dragons Den and Jupiter Lander, has been re-issued after being pulled in September. The app features SID sound emulation, auto-save to continue where you left off, and a realistic joystick with a beautifully crafted C64 keyboard. Apple originally rejected the program for violating the SDK agreement, which dictates that 'no interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s).' After disabling the controversial feature, Apple published the app in September, but days later it was pulled and the developer was asked to remove, rather than just disable, the BASIC interpreter from the program, which would have allowed unscrupulous users to run unlicensed, emulated code on the iPhone or iPod Touch. 'The road was bumpy, but we remained persistent and made the changes Apple was looking for. Ultimately, BASIC has been removed for this release; however, we hope that working with Apple further will allow us to re-enable it,' the company wrote on its blog."
Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:5, Funny)
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>>>LOAD "VIRUS",8,1
That thing still hanging around? Jeez. I wrote that when I was like, 10. Damn internet - nothing disappears. I shoulda known buying that 0.3 k modem was a bad idea.
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What programs could be written in about 38k Basic???
And how would the non-basic version of the c64 emulator hinder you to run arbitrary machine code on it?
It is easier to write useful code in c64 machine code.
And what use of a c64 emulator is there if you cannot run neither basic nor machine code on it.
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Any program that allows a user to arbitrarily write to a memory location is potentially a security threat. Buffer overloading is the most common means of taking control of a machine when a malicious user already has unpriviledged access. If the emulator is poorly written (ie it's not a sandbox, but rather simply a command interpreter to the host system) then there's a very real possibility that an exploit can be found.
Re:Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Don't use the word "control" in the same sentence as App£€ when DRM is more accurate.
Telling the customer (or consumer if you support corporate rights over your own) what to do with a product after it has been sold = DRM.
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I hate DRM too but it probably isn't as bad as the USSR. Though really if Apple owned a country I'm not sure if it would be more or less restrictive than the USSR...
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Neither am I - but one thing is for sure.. they would ban the spork.
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New meme?
In DRM Apple, the iPhone unlocks you!
Not sure it has the same ring to it...
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Though really if Apple owned a country I'm not sure if it would be more or less restrictive than the USSR...
If Apple owned a country it would be almost exactly like that commercial for the 1984 Superbowl. Except it'd be Steve Jobs up on the viewscreen and a bearded penguin running up the aisle while the mindless Apple drones would all be sticking their legs into the aisle trying to trip him. before he could throw a hammer through the viewscreen.
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App£€
Nice Eurocentric twist on the ol' M$ dealy.
I've always thought of the pound sterling symbol as more of an E or F though. Appee? Appfe?
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Nope, it's definitely an L - it's related to lira, livre and lb (pound weight).
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Are you really trying to assert that DRM isn't a form of control with a straight face? Come on now...
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I can't tell if you're trolling or trying to be funny.
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I have just spent some time reviewing documents from just before the Wall fell [gwu.edu] and it was very clearly revealed that letting people have a little bit of freedom was ultimately disastrous.
WTF? Would you prefer the European Communist regimes run people over with tanks instead? You've pretty much Godwined the discussion right there.
Re:Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:5, Funny)
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You can't compare the app store and totalitarianism. Apple sells products and people have a choice whether or not they use them. The store is exclusive and the entry policies are somewhat arbitrary/elitist/wanky, but that is no difference from a fancy nightclub. Legally they have a right to offer the service, and I have the right to ignore it. You can't choose whether you want to live under a communist system or not if you're born in a country that has one.
Also Apple haven't killed millions of innocent peop
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You can't compare the app store and totalitarianism.
Yes I can. This is a free country.
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"You can't compare the app store and totalitarianism. "
No, of course nobody would ever compare a computer system to a totalitarian regime. [youtube.com]
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Yeah, pretty much; I saw that the link was from "gwu.edu" and just figured, "GodWin University"...
Re:Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:5, Funny)
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Ah, but there is another side to this technology. Next Friday will be Junis day [slashdot.org],a reminder to us all of the contributions of Commodore computers to the causes of liberty and to international journalism. Millions of impoverished Afghanis rely on Commodore Basic emulators on their iPhones to be able to participate in the international community. Apple are clearly hindering this in hopes of appealing to the lucrative Taliban market instead. Such cynicism is appalling.
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are you seriously comparing vendor lock in on software to the Soviet Union?
It's a PHONE. you're free to jail break and Apple won't zap your phone dead. Christ.
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You're quite right - Apple is at the top of the proprietary heap.
If iPhone isn't a purposeful implementation of The Innovator's Solution's [amazon.com]* description of the proprietary to commodity process I don't know what is. I mean, the authors even have a section on Blackberry and describe how to better it ala iPhone.
Once a reasonable competitor emerges (is it Droid?) Apple will loosen its grip, but until then it commands higher profit by staying as controlling as possible.
* I know, the apostrophe should be after th
Die Wand mot fallen (Score:2)
My point here is that in the longer run what will destroy the Wall is that there are now going to be three Linux based phone OSes, Android, Maemo and Samsung's Bada. To get developer tractio
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"Apple must control everything. Yes, they regard even a BASIC interpreter as a threat."
No, it's not that. They consider GOTO to be harmful.
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Exactly! Thanks to the Information Purification Directives, Big Steve has created a garden of pure ideology, where the consumer may flourish safe from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Apple's enemies shall talk themselves to death, and the iPhone will bury them with their own confusion.
And one last thing... we shall prevail!
Re:Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:4, Insightful)
I hate the ridiculous anti-free nature of the app store, but it's not hard to see why Apple would be concerned. The fear is that if a program gets into the App Store that allows any sort of user-provided data to be executed, then evil unlicensed apps could be delivered to the platform through that interpreter.
For example, instead of writing your games in C and paying Apple to sell them on the app store, you could write your game in BASIC and deliver them through the C64 emulator. Apple makes no money. Not exactly practical, but if there's a hole in the interpreter environment that allows a jump into raw binary data (which could be set to ARM instructions) then it's up to the app developer to fix it, and Apple has no control. This is the kind of problem that plagued TI calculators for years until they decided to open them up, and was the door into custom unsigned software on game consoles before the age of modchips and hard drives.
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Games written in BASIC that Apple wouldn't make money on, though... hmmm. How would Gorillas the iPhone Game [lhunath.com] make money if people are playing Gorillas [wikipedia.org] on BASIC?
(Actually, that's a free App. Oh, well.)
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For example, instead of writing your games in C and paying Apple to sell them on the app store, you could write your game in BASIC and deliver them through the C64 emulator.
Unless the emulator provides a way for you to load BASIC programs from unsigned user files you can provide outside the emulator into the environment, this is useless. As far as I know, the only files the app would let you load are ones in the app, that you bought.
Users aren't too likely to hand-key the program listing for a C64 game
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I hate the ridiculous anti-free nature of the app store, but it's not hard to see why Apple would be concerned. The fear is that if a program gets into the App Store that allows any sort of user-provided data to be executed, then evil unlicensed apps could be delivered to the platform through that interpreter.
This problem is easily solved: Just require the code to be signed!
Although there are many upsides to interpreted languages, perhaps top of the heap is a short application development cycle. But I would happily throw a couple hundred bux for an interpretive SDK that let's me run unsigned code, so that I could develop my appz. Then, when I'm ready to sell, I get the code signed by Apple.
My company vends a product written in an common, interpreted language. It's closed-source, so we use a software obfuscation
Re:Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:4, Insightful)
It is ignorant to talk about Apple being upset at not being able to make money from Commodore basic games.
You can already release as many free games as you want, which cost apple money to host, and they do not make a cent. Apple doesn't care if you release any game you want, or as many as you want for free. They will not stop you (as long as you follow the rules).
It is clearly not about money. It is about a rule Apple created, not for commodore basic, but for things like flash. basic just happens to fit into this rule.
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But they'll only sign your game if you're not charging for it. If you don't need a signature at all then you can charge.
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I get it. The anti-Apple crusaders make the mistake of confusing an iPhone with a totalitarian state. It's nothing of the sort. They make objects which are supported by software. They're quite popular. If they double their market share again, they might have 20% of the computer market, though I really don't think that's likely. But you know what? You don't have to have a Mac, or an iPhone, or anything at all made by Apple. They're quite popular. They're turning a good profit.
If you want to collect a bunch o
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Apple depends on community developers to make all of those thousands of apps in the app store. They have a right to complain.
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Apple depends on community developers to make all of those thousands of apps in the app store. They have a right to complain.
True enough, but I'd be willing to bet that very few of the people complaining here are, in fact, iPhone developers.
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iPhone users also have the right. iPod touch users even more so since there is no network/carrier issues involved.
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Yes people do have every right to complain. They have the right to not buy Apple products as well. I also find some of Apple's actions regarding the App store to be disturbing. When it comes to the C64 Emulator I have to wonder if it might not be for copyright reasons. Who owns the rights to the the C64 basic and Kernel? Microsoft wrote the Basic way back when. People have every right to say they don't like something.
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I didn't say anything about free, I said outside of Apple's control.
Re:Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes. You can do things your Apple overlords have not expressly given you permission to do. This cannot be allowed, because they have not given permission.
The phone market is Apple's wet dream, because none of the customers have any expectation of openness or being able to actually do anything with their own hardware, so there's not much complaint when they give users the full Apple experience by locking everything down. I fully expect they'd do the exact same damn thing with OS X elsewhere if they could get away with it.
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The phone market is Apple's wet dream, because none of the customers have any expectation of openness
Nor do they care. Most phone users just want the fucking thing to, you know, work. Slashdot readers should keep in mind that they are a minority population--and a relatively small one at that.
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Well it would transform the iPhone from a Gadget to a computer, by adding the final step, rapid application development on the device itself.
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It's not about that. It's about FREEDOM OF CODE!
They can take our rights to run unsigned ARM code but they can't take our FREEDOM! RAAAAHH!
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No, that doesn't work... at least not in C64 BASIC. "WAIT" requires three operands... what you have there is a syntax error. You can SYS 6502, but it just clears the screen.
I don't know if this worked on the PET or not, but consider... Commodore licensed BASIC from Microsoft for a one-time payment of about $10,000 back in the mid 1970s. That was the last time Microsoft was involved in any capacity. Commodore was free to change it any way possible, so as they went forward, Commodore BASIC looked less and les
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Apple is just pissed that no one made an Apple2 EMU, because the c64 rocked ass and was 1000x more popular that apple
crap creation with 1970s green screen crap that was even crap in 1982.
Keyboard was nice, but the insides were dead boring and dull.
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We are talking about the C64 not the Pet.
The C64 had better sound, and hardware sprites. The AppleII did have faster drives, slots, and a CP/M option.
I liked both machines but the C64 was much easier to write games for.
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Not exactly useful, but see http://www.retrologic.com/jargon/K/killer-poke.html [retrologic.com]
Yep -- run that on your iPhone, and it will totally blow out your iPhone's CRT :^)
Re:Can you actually do anything useful? (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple's problem is that they have a bunch of thieving users who think the iPhone is theirs to use as they wish just because they paid for it. Next thing you know, they'll be writing "hello world" and you know where that leads! If you give a bunch of scumbags like that even an inch, next thing you know, they'll be demanding that they get what they pay for every time! The nerve!!
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"Next thing you know, they'll be writing "hello world""
There is no World. There is nothing outside the Dome.
Your crystal is blinking, Logan. Happy Lastday!
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You could copy and paste.
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Not likely unscrupulous, but an interpreter on the iPhone would allow developers to sell iPhone software without going through the App Store. Apple has decided - for better or worse - that they must review and approve all applications on the iPhone. Therefore no interpreters.
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Yes... you can run a program Apple doesn't control get paid for. That is, after all, the highest crime possible on the iPhone. And the reason open interpreters are not permitted. Regular iPhone applications are subject to the approvals process of the Powers That Be at Apple. But they would not be able to approve C64 BASIC, Java, or Shockwave programs (for example). And since Apple know much better than you which applications should be running on the iPhone, that would not be good.
The security argument is a
Yes. (Score:1)
One word (Score:2)
Jailbreak!
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No (Score:2)
No. Pick another platform which doesn't have such stupid limitations.
http://www.symbian.org/devices [symbian.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Handset_Alliance#Members [wikipedia.org]
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/en-us/devices/default.mspx [microsoft.com]
Show some kind of dignity. Stop buying devices treating you like some sort of criminal, 50 IQ idiot, 10 year old kid. Posted from Quad Core G5 btw...
The point is ? (Score:4, Funny)
What is the point of running a Commodore C64 Basic application on a DAMN PHONE ?
--Ivan
Because it is there. (Score:1, Insightful)
Just like a mountain.
Re:The point is ? (Score:4, Funny)
Today: Commodore 64.
Tomorrow: VAX/VMS
Tuesday: Plan 9
Thursday: MacOS
Oh, wait....
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Friday: the Hurd.
Saturday: Duke Nukem Forever.
[small print] Days referred to above do not denote a specific Friday or Saturday, especially not next Friday or Saturday. VWP. YMMV. IJMUTA. [/]
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If you have to ask, you will never know.
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On real smart phones, people does it for years, installing/running their old games, showing their friends the code they wrote.
The issue here is, your device vendor and your apologists shouldn't be asking this question. It should be YOU choosing what to do with the computing platform you do. Why don't you ask why there is such a limit of "running emulated code"? Why don't you think 10 SECONDS about the reasoning behind it?
I can't wait for the "app store only" OS X 10.7 and apologists for the most closed comp
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GPL violation? (Score:1, Informative)
This App is based on Frodo, a GPL licensed C64 emulator. While it offers, upon request, to email the Frodo source code to you (which can also be downloaded straight from the web site), it doesn't offer to send the source code of the complete App.
The Frodo source code is an integral part of the app, obviously, so I suspect this app will land them in choppy waters soon.
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Indeed, if true, that would be a GPL violation. Distribution upon request is acceptable, provided section (3) of the GPL is met, which provides the option:
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Meanwhile I can run frodo on my Moto Droid unrestricted.
How about another programming language? (Score:1)
What's stopping you from doing something like Simon's BASIC or Forth or something else?
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Apple, that's what. It seems they will refuse any alternative to running code on the device except through their app store, and that's unlikely to change. I think there's a brainfuck interpreter though, so severely crippled languages can slip through.
The app's BASIC really wasn't that usable anyway (Score:3, Informative)
I downloaded it before it got taken down the first time and had fun entering BASIC command for a couple of seconds before I lost interest. Touch screen keyboards are fine for quick SMS messages or email but I couldn't imagine being such a masochist that I'd want to enter entire programs in with one! I suppose someone with enough resolve could do some amazing stuff and create an alternative interface to the iPhone with 8bit PETSCII glory. Actually that would be kinda cool.
Anyway despite that, I kept the application and won't be upgrading, if only just to (Mr Burns voice) honk off my Apple masters :).
Re:The app's BASIC really wasn't that usable anywa (Score:2)
You lack persistence. I'm nearly done entering all of the DATA statements for a full assembler. Probably only need a few more weeks and then a few nights of verifying what I've entered. I've tacked on a bit of code to poke the whole thing into REM statements, at which point I'll be ready to recreate Zaxxon.
Does it come with software? (Score:2)
My favorite things to do in Legacy of Ancients is to rob towns or to play flip flop(and consequently run out of town when I break the bank). There is also
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I loved making humongous ramps in racing destruction set, changing the gravity to like really wacky and then hit them really hard so the cars would jump forever. That was truly the most awesome game. I remember devoting countless hours to project firestart, phantasy, mig alley ace, cycle knight, speedball... Games that didn't suck.
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God how I adored this game.
changing the gravity to like really wacky
MOON GRAVITY!
My friends all had Apple IIe systems and went home to Oregon Trails.
Impossible Mission is the Problem (Score:2)
Also, I hear Jobs is jealous that he wasn't the first one to come up with the phrase, "stay a while. Stay...FOREVER!!!"
lalalalala (Score:2)
I can't help but wonder if this whole soap opera isn't like just some jealous retribution against those old "COMMODORE ATE THE APPLE" newspaper headlines. So now it is back, but they yanked out BASIC...
"Oh, no! We suck again!" - Rob Schneider
How many guru's started with BASIC? (Score:2)
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Boo apple.
The early home computers, including Apple, shipped with BASIC and a nicely bound manual [scribd.com] with clear instructions on simple programming. This was the first step for many who are now players in the industry.
It's almost like the old days again. I hear current Apple products still ship with a book that's about as thick as the old programming manual that came with the Apple ][.
I believe it's called The License Agreement or something like that.
especially C64 BASIC (Score:2)
Most of them started with C64 basic and became gurus of today. Why C64 BASIC? Because it was so horrible that you were required to do POKE hacks, ASM code, own ASM routines, know the registers etc.
Of course, after a certain level, they asked themselves "Why the heck am I bothering with this?" and moved to mixture of pure ASM and C.
Coding for 8bit computers were so hard that one Atari 800XL (8bit) game developer could move out of gaming business (because of distributor) and could start to code entire softwar
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I don't think Commodore BASIC was any worse than any other BASIC interpreter out there. It was still largely a variant of the then-ubiquitous Microsoft BASIC. Probably its biggest deficiency was a lack of direct support for sprites. But most of the 8bit computers I played with at the time required PEEKs and POKEs to do some fancy stuff, often small machine language routines to speed up things like sorts and graphics. Back in those days, would-be programmers started with the BASIC variant on their comput
so (Score:2)
Where do you put the 5.25 in disks?
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Just like Apple has a virtual keyboard, they just can provide virtual 5.25" disks, to be inserted into a virtual 5.25" drive, using multitouch gestures. OK, there's the problem of getting in your real C64 disks, but there's a solution: Display it in hex, and type that in through the iPhone's virtual keyboard. :-)
Where... (Score:2)
Apple saves world from 8-bit nuclear attack (Score:4, Funny)
Despite months of negotiations to get a Commodore 64 emulator approved for the iPhone, Apple has pulled the application after just two days [today.com] after a hack was found that enables the BASIC interpreter.
“Anything capable of allowing programming — any programming — could be a security risk to the iPhone and its users,” said Apple in a statement to the Library of Congress on copyright. “As such, it is absolutely vital for the safety of the nation that we vet every single application and collect 30% on each one.”
Apple software reviewers, who are generally moonlighting from day jobs as TSA airport security policy writers, fear a wave of 1980s-style “hackers” using the iPhone to “dial” into NASA or National Security Agency computers using the accompanying 300-Baud Acoustic-Coupled Modem application. “We had our suspicions when the app lit the user’s face from below in just the right shade of green to show off their cheekbones really photogenically.”
Reviewers were particularly concerned that the BASIC interpreter was originally written by Microsoft. “Of course, their security is famously terrible,” said one reviewer in a break from torturing kittens. “We’d probably get a Commodore 64 virus. And their sense of aesthetics! No way Steve would ever let that through.”
A similar Commodore 64 emulator that gives ten cents to AT&T every time a user runs a game has passed approval in two days.
“A strange phone,” said NSA correspondent “WOPR.” “The only winning move is not to buy.”
Wouldn't a 6510 emu essentially be an interpreter? (Score:1)
Joystick? (Score:2)
a realistic joystick
What is that then? A Bluetooth device? Do you swing your iPhone around like a stick while trying to look at your waggling screen?
Do you plug your surplus Atari VCS stick into the serial port via a 9-pin D-SUB port [interfacebus.com] converter?
I'm going to go with David Lynch on this one, who famously ranted that "you can't watch a movie on a fscking phone." You can't have a "realistic" joystick on a phone, because an image of a joystick is not realistic, nor does it even approximate the input device. It's a neat toy, not a re
it's an appliance, not a pocket computer (Score:2)
People need to realize that the iphone isn't a pocket computer. It's an appliance. Apple didn't market it as a pocket computer, and iphone owners did not purchase the right to run whatever software they like on it. You buy that right when you buy any apple computer, but you can't purchase that right with an iphone.
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Just FYI, jackass (make that "stupid", or perhaps, "special" jackass), the reason this is a story isn't because there's a C64 emulator for the iPhone. Rather, it's a story because Apple pulled it from their app store because you could run a BASIC interpreter on it, and only allowed it back on the app store after the interpreter was pulled.
I mean, jebus, is it so much to ask that you just read the "stupid" article summary?
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---
Retrogames [feeddistiller.com] Feed @ Feed Distiller [feeddistiller.com]
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If you'd bother to read into the history of this, you'd understand why it's news-worthy. It was accepted by Apple, then pulled down awhile ago, due to "breaking the agreement," which caused the media to pick it up regarding if Apple should be allowed this level of control and what not. So the program isn't what's news, the fact that they were able to get around Apple is. If you'd bothered to have read the articles and a little bit of the history, you'd know that. Then again, it's typical for you Apple b
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I agree. Fair enough it's newsworthy that their batshit policies banned it, but now they finally allow it isn't newsworthy.
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Yeah, everyone remembers POKE8675,309 - this clears the dialing register and renders the phone useless.
Bozo.
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I'm sure you can provide even one example of where an emulated machine has ever had a vulnerability allowing a program running in the emulated hardware to do something malicious to the (usually) unrelated host hardware.
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Will this do as an example?
http://seclists.org/bugtraq/2004/Jun/211 [seclists.org]