Ask Loki Prez Scott Draeker about Linux Gaming

John Carmack of id wrote Quake III, but Loki distributed the Linux version. Loki Entertainment Software has been described by happy puppy as "...the most visible Linux gaming company," so who better to turn to than Loki President Scott Draeker for word about game development and porting for Linux? Scott's an extra-cool guy, so we expect extra-cool answers from him. We'll post them sometime within the next week, so please keep an eye out.

Just how hard /was/ it?

[SgtPepper]

Out of curiousity...how difficult was it to port the Quake ]|[ code and did it take very long? And do you have any advice for porting DOS/Windows code to Linux?


Sgt Pepper
Lame Sig Shamelessly Ripped from
Fortune:

Disco is to music what Etch-A-Sketch is to art.

About Loki and the cash

[ACK!!]

I know the one question I would love to ask this fellow.

I have wondered this since the first day I heard about CIV:CTP port. Considering the limited nature of the Linux market at this moment how well is Loki doing as a company in terms of sales and profits?

MMRPGs

[Floyd_The_Wanderer]

I was curious as to any plans to develop or port a game similar to Asheron's Call or Everquest for Linux? I've seen opensource projects along these lines but none of them seem to be developing very quickly.

Loki

[Anonymous Coward]

Scott, I am a linux programmer doing active development for technology companies in Canada. My questions spawns more from a business side rather than a technology side. I've examined Lokis business model and have a two-fold question. #1: Do you think simply porting games is a viable business model for Loki games. As Linux acceptance picks up don't you fear that more gaming houses will start doing their own cross-platform development in house rather than relying upon Loki as a "port house". #2: Linked to #1, if you fear this trend, will we see any original titles coming from LokiSoft or do you plan on strictly remaining a port house.

Children's software for Linux

[Jonathan Blocksom]

Do you think there is a market for children's software that runs on Linux?

Games for a "Serious" OS?

[Andy_R]

Some people might say that porting high profile games to Linux will damage it's reputation as a "serious" OS. What is your response to this?

- Andy R.

correction

[JakusMinimus]

John Carmack of id wrote Quake III, but Loki ported it to Linux
This is flat out wrong. Dave Hircsh, aka Zoid, along with Carmack (both of id) were responsible for the linux code for quake3. Loki merely repackaged and distributed the linux version of the software.

--

cross platform game creation

[Axiom_D]

When programming a game, what steps can be taken to make it easily ported to other platforms?

For example, is one language better then another? (at least in being able to be easily ported)

Is one method of displaying graphics better then another? (OpenGL, Direct X, etc.)

And do you have any useful tips for programmers to assist in porting?

Thanks,
Axiom

Other types of games...

[Mr. Penguin]

Of course, the mainstream preference seems to be towards first-person shoot 'em up type games, but I for one enjoy racing games (Need for Speed, NASCAR, and the like). Does Loki have any plans for porting other types of games to Linux, and if so, how about working on joystick/periphial support?

Brad Johnson
--We are the Music Makers, and we
are the Dreamers of Dreams

XFree 4.0

[Jestrzcap]

How will XFree 4.0 affect how loki ports games? Is it going to make things easier? Harder? I know you have problems with being compatible with the different video card types and GlideX.X or Mesa3.X but you have done a really great job so far (I own quake ]|[, heretic ][, and Homm ]|[).

~Jester

Gaming distribution?

[jeroenb]

Since Linux was originally much more geared towards and used for server-applications and has only been moving into the desktop-market for a relatively short period, I can imagine the operating system is not entirely optimized for playing games. Stability often comes at the cost of performance and features, so I was wondering, do you think it would be useful to create a Linux distribution that focusses mainly on gaming and other multimedia-related applications?

correction

[Axiom_D]

let me correct that last question:

And do you have any useful tips for programmers who are programming a game now that would make it easier to port in the future?

Axiom

Loki only distributed Q3A I thought

[Tripster]

Umm,

Might just be me, but I thought that Loki only distributed the game in this case since the Linux development was done my id themselves to get all 3 platforms out at the same time.

I could be wrong :-)

Re:Just how hard /was/ it?

[msphil]

IIRC, id did the port, not Loki. Loki is distributing Q3.

A fairer question might be "How difficult was it to port the Heretic 2 and/or the Heavy Gear 2 code, and did it take very long?" After all, they are two accelerated titles that Loki has ported, although the latter is still in beta.

Porting apps other than games

[vor]

Given Loki's experience in porting applications, have you considered, or been offered to, port programs other than games to Linux?

Reject ratio

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

I'm assuming that your (current) modus operandi is to call up a company and say "Hey, can we port your game to Linux?" Given that assumption:

1) How many companies have you talked to?
2) What percentage of them rejected the request?
3) Of those that rejected, what were their reasons? (fear of "open source", lack of demand, etc)
--
Here is the result of your Slashdot Purity Test.

Lacking API's and other challenges

[toofast]

Currently, Linux is lacking the standardized interfaces and API's that WIndows has. What is the greatest challenge (that needn't be one) when porting a game to Linux?

I mean, what makes you swear at Linux and say, Damnit, why doesn't Linux have this yet???

Flight-Sims!

[SquierStrat]

I can't say how excited I was to be able to buy Quake 3 specifically the Linux version out or Electronics Boutique, but, the thing that keeps me from going linux full time to be honest, is a lack of flight-sims! Do you have plans to port any flight-sims anytime soon?

Derek G.

Re:MMRPGs

[Jestrzcap]

I can answer that. Or at least partially answer that. I can't speak for Loki but <a href="http://www.neverwinternights.com">Never Winter Nights</a> is a MMRPG that is being developed by Black Isle. Talk a look.. it's very, very, very, very, cool (D&D third edition rules).

How do you...

[Devil Ducky]

How do you convince the original makers of the games that you are porting to let you do it?

I imagine that it is a slightly easier task now that you have proven that you won't take their code and run.

Linux games and the GPL

[br4dh4x0r]

If Linux-centric games start being developed and released on a broader scale, do you think making the source available under the GPL after release would be a viable solution to quick patches and bug fixes? Or would this lead to illegal forks becoming as much of a problem as pirating?

Tell us about the bottom line...

[Chagrin]

The only thing I want to know is how profitable is the business of porting software to linux? I know it sounds like a bit of business secret, but I just want to know the truth as to whether there money in what you're doing. For example, how much of a return do you expect on games like Railroad Tycoon?

Penguin Play? Other initiatives?

[AugstWest]

I was wondering if you've taken a look at Penguin Play, or any of the other API-like attempts at making it easier for people to program/port games for linux.

Do you think that initiatives like this are good for the OS in the long run, or do you think they're more dangerous as a way of vanilla-izing or lowering the bar for good game programming?

When will Blizard and Westwood port their games?

[Nathaniel]

As one of the multitude waiting for news containing the words 'Loki' and 'Westwood', or 'Loki' and 'Blizard', and buying other games from Loki in the meantime, I'd like to know if there is anything else that we can do to help create a situation in which we see the announcements we've been waiting for.

I understand that you cannot tell us what's happening before the announcements actually occur, but can you tell us if there is another place we might hope to get information, or if there is a good way for us to have a positive influence on the probability of particular games being ported?

Moola

[Signal 11]

What's the rate of return you guys are averaging? Market penetration? What are your earnings projections over the next year in the linux market?

Other slashdotters here seem interested in the coding challenge, which is cool, but I want to know how good of a return you guys are making on these ports. I'd like to take those statistics over to other companies to encourage them to port their products (not just games, but Real Apps too). These may be unglamorous questions, but they are the meat and potatoes ones that you no doubt answered when you decided to go ahead and port these games to linux.

Linux gaming market just receiving left overs?

[molog]

I am very impressed with Loki. You have done a great job of getting titles out for Linux. Still most of these games were released some time ago(with the exception of Quake III) in the Windows world. Is the future of games for Linux just games that were successful in the Windows world, or are we going to see releases that are nearly simultaneously released as the Windows version on the horizon?

Shameless Request: It would be very nice to see Everquest brought over =)
Molog

So Linus, what are we doing tonight?

Re:correction

[Roblimo]

True - and corrected. Thank you. You'll notice that "Lokie ported quake III to Linux" is the way the story is presented in most media. Take this as an object lesson in trusting journalists, and be glad it's my blushing face, not yours, that has egg on it now. :)

- Robin

I bought CivCTP...

[ferret]

...when I got LinuxPPC. I won't be buying anymore Loki games though as they seem to have decided LinuxPPC users only need two or three games! :-

2 Questions:

[Greyfox]

1) Do you plan any Loki original titles or will you just continue to port other peoples' games?

2) When's the IPO?

Oh yeah, and can I have a job? Please? Please please please? If you give me a job I promise to sit in the back and not bother anyone... :-)

Out of the Box

[Accipiter]

When do you think Linux Games will evolve to the point of working correctly straight out of the box?

The reason I ask, is because I've been drooling over the thought of buying Quake 3 for Linux -- But the thing that stops me is the q3demo didn't work properly. I downloaded it, and installed it (the shell script installer was fantastic, by the way), but when I run it, it runs at about 1 frame per second from start to finish (From the ID Software logo, to the menus, to the game, right to the exit screen.) I've tried for a long long time to get it working, and to no avail. Windows sucks but Games work - Both well, and immediately.

Because of this, I haven't bought Quake 3 yet. I want to know it *WILL WORK* so I'm not stuck with a $50 piece of software that is of no use to me.

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Content creation

[Bert Peers]

When the topic of creating commercial games for Linux pops up, I'm always eager to point out that there is an important difference between making games available on a platform by porting an existing game (at which Linux is, thanks to Loki, becoming highly succesful), and actual creation, out of the blue on the target platform.

Porting "merely" requires technical skill at the engine level : know-how on how to port Win32 to X, getting DirectX to work with SDL, OpenGL cross-platform issues, etc. Creation, on the other hand, requires the full asset of content creation tools that are of vital importance in every software house, but remain hidden from the end user -- and the porter. I like to call those tools the "boring 50%" of game production, and they consist of level editors, model builders, conversion tools (eg 3DS Max to native format), sound editors, etc.

Since Loki has recently showed interest in developing, instead of porting, Linux games, I'd like to hear what your take is on the apparent lack of solid, existing authoring tools (other than the Gimp), and the lack of solid desktop development support (KDevelop et al are nice but no match for the MSVC/MFC combo) needed to write all those quick'n'dirty but ultra-vital editor tools.

Do you agree that this lack of Linux equivalents of 3DS Max, Soundforge and MSVC is currently a major hurdle for Linux-native development ? If you go for full Linux development, would you create authoring support all by yourself and release it (a la MPEG SDL), or rather sit back and wait until Codewarrior, Kinetix etc all get their Linux products up to par with Win32 ?

Thanks !

Development Questions

[TheJet]

Coupla Q's:

1. When porting an application from Windows to the Linux world, I would assume that porting OpenGL code would be more straightforward than DirectX code (at least for the 3D-engine games). Has there been any thought to Loki producing an API that can replace DirectX on Linux, so that any game which uses the DirectX API could merely be recompiled using these new libraries, instead of the Microsoft supplied ones. (I don't just mean DirectDraw, but DirectSound/Input/etc).

2. Do you think that porting games from the Windows world to the Linux world places your developers in a good position to create original games directly for Linux, or are different skillsets involved?

Thanks
The "Top 10" Reasons to procrastinate:

LinuxPPC ports

[dennism]

Scott,

I've noticed that your company is now porting to LinuxPPC, and so, I have a few questions regarding that:

1) You obviously feel that the PPC market is viable for porting. What factors made the PPC more attractive over the Sparc or Alpha? I can see where the larger Macintosh hardware market may be a factor, but I just don't see Linux taking ahold on the Mac side like I do with the PC side.

2) Have there been many problems with the PPC porting effort, such in the ways of 3-D Acceleration, sound support, etc?

3) And finally, is Loki's PPC support limited to PCI machines made by Apple, or are you targeting any PPC machine that can run Linux? (Such as CHRP motherboards or machines that can only run MkLinux).

thanks,

Coders: linux or gaming background?

[clem]

The concept of Linux Game Programmer as a paying job is a relatively recent one. One is unlikely to see too many resumes with "8 years experience coding games on Linux" (or, if so, it should be viewed with skepticism).

When sifting through resumes of prospective coders, does Loki lean towards programmers with a strong gaming background or rather those with more Linux programming experience?

How To Show Support?

[jelwell]

Sadly enough I bought Quake 3 for Linux, not because I like Quake 3 - I don't - but because I'm hoping that my purchase will help show game companies that there is a market in developing and porting games to the Linux platform. I would like to be able to buy every game that comes out for Linux, but to tell the truth I don't have any interest in the games currently on Loki's product page. With this in mind, what would you think is the best way for me - as a consumer and a Linux user - to show game companies that I do want games ported to Linux?

Joseph Elwell.

Linux playing catch up?

[Tyrian]

Because of the sheer dominance of Windows (9x) as the gaming platform of choice, Linux seems that it is always playing catch up. The developers generally build sepecifically for Windows, certainly making your job tougher.
What will it take for Linux to be a primary development platform? Does the Linux community need to make strives to enrich certain aspects of itself, or is it an issue of critical mass?

X, NAS, and standards

[karzan]

I've noticed that all your games seem to use /dev/audio or some such device rather than considering network audio (through the Network Audio System); they also seem to have a frightening dependence on being on the same machine as the X server. My question is this: Why is there so little support for what X can really do? Why use non-standard 3D stuff instead of GLX? I would like to be able to run this using an NCD X-terminal, for example, which has NAS support and GLX support, but your software is all geared toward the PC. Why is this? Is any of that going to change as time goes by?

Re:Children's software for Linux

[jd]

At a guess, I'd say that a market CAL (Computer Aided Learning) software for kids is as close to a dead cert as you can get, without actually selling the software.

As for other software for children, I'd give that a very high probability. Why? Because:

• It's cheaper to make low-end hardware, without a Microsoft Tax, than to build high-end machines that can barely run under a bloated commercial OS. That means cheaper machines for young kids, school kids, and toddlers.
• The Disney Factor. Children's software that's been checked by thousands of independent programmers is less likely to have pornography embedded in it. Several high-selling Disney films passed whatever checks they have, yet had embedded porno. If parents are as concerned as they are making out, I'd say they'd more reason to put faith in open checks and balances than private scrutiny by the very people most able to splice age-inappropriate imagery in.
• Kids are more likely to learn on a system that lets them explore. Closed, sealed "magic boxes" offer nothing but boring mouse clicks and maybe a badly sampled sound that resembles a box scraping across a floor.

I think the first SERIOUS programmer to develop commercial and/or Open Source children's software for Linux is likely to become VERY rich, VERY quickly.

future assurance

[jmd!]

While I refuse to use (much less pay) for any type of closed source applications, I view games more as entertainment then an application. A side effect of this is that when I shell out $50US for a game, I'd like to be assured I can enjoy said game whenever I'd like, for the next 5-10 years. With DOS/Windows games, I have this assurance. Two of my all-time favorites, "Master of Orion", and "X-COM", were written for plain old DOS 6.22. Today, many years later, I can still (and do!) play these games on my Windows 98 machine. Aside from Microprose, I'm a huge ID fan. When Quake 3 came out for Linux and Windows, I purchased the Windows version, even though I have to reboot every time I want to play it. I felt I had no assurance that Quake 3 for Linux would still run on Linux 2.4, much less 3.0, or 4.0, with glibc 8.5. I'm sure there are others who feel the same. What type gaurantee can you give the gaming community, so we know our closed-source Linux entertainment purchases will still be usable for an acceptable ammount of time.

I realize part of DOS/Windows problem is the overhead incurred by backwards compatibility, but, on the other hand, I sure do enjoy being able to whip out my copy of "Karateka", or "Leisure Suit Larry 2" and know it will still run.

Re:Gaming distribution?

[jamesc]

Not to be a nitpicker (here on /.? Naahhh! ;-) but I disagree with some of your assumptions:

Since Linux was originally much more geared towards and used for server-applications and has only been moving into the desktop-market for a relatively short period, I can imagine the operating system is not entirely optimized for playing games.

Was making a better server really one of Linus' goals? I think not. Instead, servers are a niche where we can slide Linux in under the PHB's radar. Also, the only OSs that are entirely optimized for playing games are game consoles.

Remember how long it took for Direct-X to catch on? It took M$ several versions to make an ABI and implementation that didn't stink. Hopefully, we can avoid this....

Stability often comes at the cost of performance and features, ....

Here is why I hit the "Reply" link. Stability does not have to be compromised by performance or features, not if the OS / Graphics package is designed properly. Did SGI's graphics eye-candy jeopardize it's speed or reliability? (OK, they've fallen on hard times recently, but think back about 5 years.)

.... {maybe a Linux gaming distro} ....

I'd like to see one of these.
--

Space for commercial and open-source games

[cartographer]

There seems to be direct competion in most application space between commercial software and Open Source alternatives (e.g. office suites, web servers, operating systems, etc.), except in particular niche markets. I've seen numerous comments, however, that games are different. They don't have the shelf-life of other applications. This viewpoint seems to stem from the idea that most games depend on cutting-edge technology which are best developed quickly in small groups. This is quite distinct from most Open Source development which often proceeds at a more deliberate pace ;) However, this may the ideal environment to develop different types of games such as MUDs, MUSHs, etc.

Do you forsee any conflict between commercial game software and Free alternatives? Or are these complementary models that can work together, or at least coexist?

Future obstacles for Linux games.

[BridgeBum]

Given that Linux is receiving better and better support for the latest hardware (sound cards, video, etc.), what do you see as the next big obstacle for Linux game development/porting?

Responses

[jd]

As best as you recall, what was the most -unusual- response you had, with regards to the idea of porting software to Linux?

Loki After Success?

[Isldeur]

What would loki's plan be after the rest of the world learns what we know; when they start porting games themselves to linux?

What do we need to fix?

[xant]

Linux as a gaming platform suffers from several areas, most notably performance on some games (I haven't tried Q3A yet but UT is definitely slower), hardware support, and installers. You guys make the installers, but the Linux community pretty much handles everything else, so my question to you is:

What can we fix to make Linux a gaming platform? More specifically, what hardware drivers, APIs and libraries need to be improved to make Linux a better gaming platform than that other OS? As a coder, a gamer and a Linux afficionado I'm interested in this question, because once I know what needs to be fixed, I can roll up my sleeves and get to work. Unlike with that other OS.

Lack of Info on Website, or Just Rumors?

[HomerJ]

It's been reported on MANY sites, like slashdot and linuxgames.com that you are porting games such as Soilder of Forutne, Sim City 3000, among others. Tuxgames.com is even taking pre-orders for these games. Yet there is nothing on your website about relase dates, or even that you are doing anything with these games at all.

Are these just rumors that got out of hand? Or are you in fact porting these games? If so, why is there no mention on your website about release info, demos, screenshots, etc.?

I'm excited to see such games get ported to linux, but when in comes to facts, I like to hear it from the horse's mouth. It just seems kinda odd that many trustworty sites report this info, and no mention is mentioned on the one place it should be, lokigames.com

Re:Development Questions

[borzwazie]

In reference to this post about an "in-between" API, what do you think about (specifically) an API that translates DirectX calls into SDL calls? (Is this even a correct example?)

Making Linux commercially viable

[Foz]

I've been using Linux for many many years now, and one of my favorite rants (or discussions) is how to make Linux more commercially palatable. Invariably, I always end up holding forth on how linux will not be a force to be reckoned with until you can walk down the aisle at Fry's and see boxes and boxes of shrinkwrapped linux software.

Unfortunately, as we all know this is a two-way street. People don't want to port to linux because the base is so small, and people won't use a "niche" OS to raise the user base numbers until the apps are available. This is the classic catch-22 situation.

Well, now with companies like Loki you have managed to change the scene somewhat. I am delighted every time I walk down the aisle and see Loki software on the shelves, and consequently it seems like there are more and more companies coming to the table with linux ports or following a similar strategy as Loki.

It also seems to me that a critical mass point has been reached. Once you guys proved it was possible, lots of people started jumping on the bandwagon.

Now for my question(s). Did you set out on this path because you wanted to help kickstart this whole thing? Did you expect to be one of the major movers behind this sudden influx of commercial software for linux?

Also, the competition in your space seems to be heating up. You guys were the real "early adopters", meaning you were the first to market. However, now that you've proven it will work, I'm sure there are a lot of companies out there nipping at your heels, so how do you plan on staying ahead? How do you plan on keeping the forerunner position? Will you become a force for standardization among linux (with graphics API's, sound, etc) that will eventually trickle over into every other application space (besides just games?).

-- Gary F.

Re:future assurance

[Nathaniel]

I've purchased Civ:CTP, Railroad Tycoon II, and Heros 3 from Loki.

I have every expectation that I will be able to play these games at any point in the future, with minimal effort.

ldd is your friend.

Ten years from now, with a different kernel and an entirely different set of libraries, I will either have the old libraries installed so I can use lots of old software I care about (remember, hard drive space will have become less expensive), or I will go grab them off a server somewhere and install them, devoting a couple minutes to the task of preparing my system to use old software.

Loki offers exactly the same gaurentee that other software providers offer. That the software will work on a system that meets the system requirements listed on the box.

It is nieve of you to assume that all future versions of Windows will always run your Quake 3 for windows.

linux as a 1st tier platform

[moebius_4d]

My question:

Based on your projections and knowledge of the market, when can we expect linux to be a first tier platform for game releases? I believe market share is up there with macintosh now, but I don't see that level of commitment from the industry. I'm sure you guys follow that type of thing closely.

Some DirectX-Linux issues...

[stalle]

Most games today are being programmed using Microsoft DirectX... and I'm getting curious about one thing:
Are there any standard in porting this code into Linux code, and would it speed up porting of other games?
By the way , I'd love to see Civ2 ported to linux
//stalle -- I don't take myself for granted

How to positively influence publishers?

[rrwood]

My personal favourite game titles are the LucasArts' Star Wars games, especially the space combat sims "Tie Fighter" and "X Wing vs Tie Fighter." I'd love to see them ported to Linux, which leads to my question: What can we, as Linux folk, do to positively influence publishers into porting titles to Linux? Do petitions and email campaigns actually do any good, in your experience or opinion? Any other suggestions?

I suppose buying every Linux title Loki ships and therefore making Loki an enviable financial success is one of the best ways to convince other publishers, huh? :-)

Nostalgia Gaming?

[ronfar]

Yesterday I was hunting through my parents' garage and I found my old Atari 800 copy of Ultima III: Exodus and it got me to thinking about some of the nostalga games that are available in Windows. I've bought some of these packages (notable Sega's Smash Pack) and would like to play them natively under Linux. Have you ever considered doing native Linux ports of some of these types of older games? Would it be a trivial thing to port them to Linux, do you think or would it be more work than it was worth considering Wine?

I expect the level of portability varies a lot

[Vicegrip]

And I suspect this adds a lot to the complexity of making the port for any given game. Given that games are still generally written to support Windows with Mac as an afterthought, if you could wish for one thing game developers would not do that would make your life easier, what would it be?

Manpower

[Fizgig]

I know this is going to vary with the project, but I'm wondering how much manpower it takes to port a "typical" game from Windows to Linux. I suspect it's somwhere greater than zero and less than the amount of effort it took to write the game in the first place, but I just wonder how the time for (re)programming and QA are distributed compared to writing the game in the first place and how you allocate your staff to this (do they each work on a single game or do they move from project to project).

Future of gaming..

[Malachi]

We haven't begun to hit the tip of the gaming iceburg. The past is wrought with not enough horse power to do both graphics and thinking/logic/ai. Right around the corner 3d cards will have their own processing power and thus give the cpu cycles back to developers. Where do you think the next 5 years of gaming is going? Care to throw out any farther fetched (timeline) ideas? Lastly, how is Loki going to position itself? Porter, Developer, Activision?
Malachi

Re:2 Questions:

[Bad Mojo]

I can vouch for Grefox here, and he will not ever `sit in the back and not bother anyone.' He's a trouble-maker. A rocker of boats. If you give him a job, you have to take me too!


Bad Mojo

Re:Just how hard /was/ it?

[cronio]

Loki did NOT port q3a, they are just distributing it. The other games are games that they have ported or are porting (myth II, Civ:CTP, Heavy Gear II, etc.)

Console threat?

[CosmicSheep]

Being a Linux Games Programmer myself, I keep an eye on what else is happening in the gaming world.

The games industry is slowly moving off PCs and onto consoles, purely for their profitability. The new Playststation is being hailed as the latest nemesis of PC gaming. Do you think that consoles are going to make Linux gaming redundant, or too unprofitable to be sustained? Given that consoles are not easily user-programmable, do you think that future talent for games programming is going to be harder to find, as these proprietary boxes do not encourage people to get involved in writing their own games as the 8/16 bit computers used to?

-- Arron Shutt

Linux Gaming

[Upsilon]

I'm a gamer and I'm also a Linux user, unfortunately these two things rarely coincide. I have a win95 partition on my computer pretty much for the sole purpose of playing games, while I use Linux for everything else. It might seem that I am the perfect person to buy Loki products but I can honestly say I have never purchases a single Loki game. Why? Several reasons:

1. Limited selection of games. I don't necessarily want to spend my money on the handful of games that you've ported.

2. Games come out to late. If it's something I really wanted then I probably already bought it before I even knew you've started a port.

3. Problems with the Linux platform. I love Linux for some things, but it has a ways to go before it is a real viable gaming platform. We need better video drivers, better sound, better controller support, etc.

What exactly are you doing to address these concerns? Will you support a more diverse variety of games (let's see some RPGs!)? Will you work on beginning a port before the game in question is already finished and available for windows? Most importantly, what are you doing to address the problems with the Linux platform for gaming?

I also have a completely unrelated question. If, some time in the future, more and more companies begin doing their own in-house ports to Linux, will Loki consider developing original games?

Thank you

Re: Q3A at low fps in Linux..

[ebbv]

this is almost certainly because you have Mesa installed improperly, and it's doing software rendering rather than hardware. i've run into this problem myself... unfortunately Q3A will only run well if you have a good 3d card set up.. so take care of that and it will run like a champ (i played the Q3A demo under linux and it's sweet as all get-out, and i only have a voodoo2!)..
...dave

Loki to become obsolete?

[antizeus]

Let's suppose that five years from now, most game companies develop their software with Linux portability in mind, and release Linux versions concurrently with Windows versions (or sooner, heh). Where do you see Loki in such an environment? Do you think there will be enough of a market for game porting to support Loki? Or are you looking towards shifting your emphasis as Linux gets more mainstream support?

games, music, movies, and copyright lawsuits

[NeilO]

I find it interesting that Loki has managed to establish a good reputation amoung the Linux community while still charging for its products. In other areas of entertainment, notably MP3 and DVD, the Linux community seems eager to criticize any corporation that seeks profits for the goods they produce. It seems to me like a double standard. Do you agree? If so then why do you think the discrepancy exists?

why won't Loki post sales numbers?

[jdwtiv]

There was a similar question already, but I've seen the answer on your newsgroup. Loki won't talk about sales numbers, at least not in public. To me that means that sales aren't that great, unless there's another reason?

I'm not even that interested in dollar amounts, number of units sold, heck the number of digits in the number of units sold would be of interest!

Loki and OpenGL involvement

[tolldog]

Due to my job, I am interested in OpenGL development in high end app area as well as in the gaming area.
Games have been the driving force for good lowend GL drivers, software and hardware and I see that this pattern should continue.
My question is:
How closely are you involved with the work that VA and SGI (or others) are doing with OpenGL?

Port times

[StenD]

I purchased Civilization: Call to Power for Linux as soon as it hit the shelves at my local CompUSA, but I soon became discouraged over the delays between the Activision patches and your own. Specifically, while I didn't expect the Linux patch at the same time as the Windows patch, it seemed to be a bit extreme to take an 5 months to port the 1.2 patch that only took Activision 4 months to develop. What are you doing to reduce these lags?

In a related question, are you going to be porting Civilization: Call to Power II, and, if so, what are you doing to reduce the lag time between the Windows and Linux versions?

Re:Gaming distribution?

[matman]

I agree with the other respondant, that stability does not sacrifice speed/features. However, I do not agree that any problems that may exist to hinder game development would not be fixed by a distribution. They'd have to be fixed where they are, in the kernel and in libraries and apps. All a dist is (often) is a collection of apps, the methods of installin them and managing them, around the kernel. Maybe an optimization switch in the kernel that says, "primary use=server/productivity/gaming" or somethin like that :) But it wouldnt be in a dist.

A free games / multimedia API?

[jregel]

One of the advantages of the Windows platform is DirectX. although it isn't necessarily the best implementation of a multimedia / gaming API, it is standard and loads of games are written for it.

What is needed for a Linux alternative? Does Linux have a particular weak spot that needs addressing before gaming becomes as easy as under Windows?

Concurrent development?

[wongacrash]

I've noticed that most of your games have been ported and published much later than the original version of the game.

Is there any chance that in the future, you'll be doing the port while the game is in development, in order to get the Linux version out sometime around when the game is first published?

Maybe working with the developer to improve the portability of their code, so that all is needed for the Linux version is a recompile or something easy? (I think Epic did that with their UT codebase.)

-Jay Laney

Good Business = Out Of Business Paradox. . .

[heller]

This is more of several closely linked questions than anything else.

It's well known that Loki is not posting any business figures. There are one of two possible conclusions one can draw from this: 1) Loki is doing very poorly and they don't want to talk about how poorly or 2) Loki is doing extremely well and is fearfull of losing business if other publishers realize how rich the Linux game market really is.

Now, question number #1, if you're not going to give us numbers, could you indicate, in general terms, how Loki is doing. Will you be around in a year? 5 years? What is the rate of growth of companies agreeing to let you port? What are the near future projections of this rate?

Next, IF, as I suspect, the 2nd conclusion I draw above is correct, then at soem point companies will realize that they maybe better off designing and developping with a Linux port in mind to begin with. As several other posters have also wondered, where will this leave Loki? What are your plans for the time when a seperate company to port linux games is no longer needed? Are you shooting for a buy out from one of these bigger companies? I see this as a viable option as it would give some company a big edge in the Linux gaming market.

** Martin

Maxis and Blizzard: When Do We Get New Games?

[WillAffleck]

The future of Linux depends on this: when will we get:

A. a port of The Sims (Maxis);
B. a port of Warcraft and Starcraft games (Blizzard);
C. a port of SimCity 3000 (Maxis);
D. (bonus question) Simultaneous releases of games for Linux.

The biggest question is really when you'll be part of the rollout cycle for new games, as opposed to existing games. So long as it's still Windows and Mac versions only, it's painful for me to tell my son we're not buying StarCraft right now. I've bought three releases from you guys, but I really want The Sims and I may have to install a DOS/Win partition just so I can play it.

Even rough release dates are cool, but are you guys going to be part of the new game cycle anytime soon?

Re:future assurance

[/dev/niall]

It is nieve of you to assume that all future versions of Windows will always run your Quake 3 for windows.

Not only "nieve", it's silly. ;)

Microsoft's pushing and development of Windows 2000 gives us a pretty clear picture of their future roadplans for their OS offerings. And in case you haven't noticed, backwards compatibility with old DOS games is not high on their list of things to support.

The next "consumer" version of Windows (95/98), currently codenamed "millenium" is still a maybe. It may never see the light of day. Slimmed down versions of 2000 are in the works... they might run a better Q]I[, but I'd be surprised if you'll be firing up Leisure Suit Larry on the latest and greatest MS OS for much longer.

Adapting games instead of just porting

[Unassuming Puppy]

As a company specializing in doing work on existing games, how do you feel about starting to adapt (ie, "improve") games instead of simply porting them?

Short example: I was in total love with Transport Tycoon, until the very limited underlying world model started to irritate me bigtime. A train between two major cities would unload all of its passengers on some forsaken small stop in the middle, effectively running empty half the time.

Do you even think you could build a business out of working on such problems?

Re:Gaming distribution?

[hardburn]

I beleive that the Playstation 2 actualy uses a Linux distro. From what I've heard, its been extensivly re-written. However, if its Linux, its source code is open, so it should be easy to make an emulator for other distros (far easyer then it would be to make one for Windows or the Mac, I would think). So we may see lots of PSX2 (and the orginaly PSX, since the PSX2 is backwards compatible with them) games for Linux.

----------

I would use it

[cide1]

I don't know if it would make much performance differance, but if a distro made setting up common gaming hardware easier and gave faster frame rates, that would be enough for me to use it. Ever tried to use a a SBLive or Voodoo 3 in Quake 3. I learned more about linux doing this than anything else. Linux has been constantly evolving into more of an everyday person's OS than an IT guy's OS, and as this happens setting up hardware must be a no brainer. I believe a gaming OS could help this area.

Q3A Interoperability?

[wongacrash]

I foolishly bought the Windows version of Quake III when it was released. I had assumed that id would be releasing the linux binaries to be freely downloaded from their website, much like they did for the Quake 2 linux version.

Then I read that Loki had signed to publish and maintain the linux version.

Oops on my part.

So, is there any chance that the Linux binaries will be released seperatly so that I can play q3 under linux using my windows cd? Please?

-Jay Laney

Will people put up with Windows anymore?

[hardburn]

It seems like all the computer gaming magazines out there dislike Windows and DirectX because of buggy programs, but they always look to Microsoft again to fix it, despite Microsoft's track record. At the same time, they say things like "How many games does Linux have now? Six?" Do you think we'll get out of Microsoft rut within the next ten years?

----------

Re:Loki

[FauxPasIII]

Regarding #2, Sam Latinga is already involved with a pirates RPG, per his homepage. Disclaimer: I am not a Loki person, just a Linux geek from Georgia Tech.

Re:X, NAS, and standards

[|guillaume|]

I guess you could easily answer those questions yourself.

X and other standards are good, but what you usually are looking for in a game is _performance_ and good framerate, and god knows that the X-windows system isn't too good for that. And the typical Linux gamer will play games on a desktop machine, so having the X server on the same machine won't bother him at all.

Also, compliance to such standards can be cumbersome, and the obligation to meet them could discourage the port of games to Linux, as developpers will prefer some much simpler API.

guillaume

Games and profitablilty

[seron]

Hi- As a company that devotes its entire set of resources toward Linux development, what would you say to a new or existing company to convince them of the vitality of the Linux environment? And would those statements be different? Kevin

Some suggestions

[BeanThere]

"More specifically, what hardware drivers, APIs and libraries need to be improved to make Linux a better gaming platform than that other OS?"

There are quite a number of API's out there that have Linux support (clanlib, SDL, GGI to name a few.) Most of them are pretty good, but my personal feeling is that SDL is the way to go. Its a nice clean design, there is a version 1.0, and its already very cross-platform. It definitely has the potential to become a cross-platform equivalent of Microsofts DirectX. Version 1.0 doesn't have 3D, but version 1.5 (which is in development) will support OpenGL.

OpenGL is definitely the right choice of 3D API. However, Direct3D is showing signs of seriously overtaking Direct3D in terms of functionality, so we should not complacently accept that OpenGL has "won". Some entity/organization needs to take OpenGL "by the balls" and seriously work on a decent OpenGL version 2.00, with most 1.2 extensions wrapped up into the API, and API access to new functionality (hardware bumpmapping, texture compression, maybe access to texture/surface memory buffers for dynamic/procedural textures.) As far as I can tell, SGI isn't making any real effort to do this. Someone needs to take OpenGL and update it to tackle Direct3D head-on.

The other thing that needs to happen with OpenGL on Linux is that there needs to be a standard driver interface for graphics card vendors to write drivers.

So to sum it up, in my opinion, "only" three things need to happen:

• The Linux community should stop quibbling over the hundreds of unfinished gaming API's (and stop creating more), and just pick one and make it as good as they can make it. No API is ever perfect, and those programmers who feel that they simply have to create their own one because "this one lacks that" or "that one lacks this" should just get over it. Rather contribute to making future versions of an existing API (like SDL) better. Pick one and standardize!
• Someone needs to come to the realization that OpenGL is going to lose its lead in the 3D API market if it is further allowed to stagnate.
• Graphics card vendors must be able to create standardized drivers for acceleration.

That should take care of the technical side of things ... hmm ..

Where to buy?

[dmorin]

When Civ:CTP first came out and I couldn't find it brick and mortar, Loki advised me to just buy from online suppliers because brick and mortar would always lag far behind. When QuakeIII came out, Carmack urged the exact opposite and told people to go to retail and demand copies of Q3 for Linux.

Which method do you recommend, and why? I still hope for the day when I can go to the local software shop and see a Linux section.

d

Long term viability of Linux Gaming Market

[Jurjen Katsman]

Ok, question:

- How do you see Linux being a succesfull gaming platform in the long run? The Windows games market allready is not much more as an afterthought for most publishers, with the consoles being the major money makers. Do you think Linux will change this? If not, how do you see the future of linux gaming and your company? As a niche market, which most major publishers won't touch, but which will leave a nice gap for you to fill? Or do you see yourself moving away from Linux and PCs in the long run, to be a more profitable company on consoles?

Re:MMRPGs

[Anonymous Coward]

NWN is not an MMRPG in the Everquest sense. I too had this misconception until I really read their site.

Under EQ you pay a fee each month to the MotherShip to play on their servers. NWN is to be hosted by you, me, anybody with an Internet connection. The hoster has the option of writing their own modules and DM'ing it. Any two hosters can agree to provide a portal between their servers. No additional fees necessary.

Chum

PS - 3rd Ed. cool? Neh.

Re:Gaming distribution?

[jeroenb]

Was making a better server really one of Linus' goals? I think not. Instead, servers are a niche where we can slide Linux in under the PHB's radar. Also, the only OSs that are entirely optimized for playing games are game consoles.

I agree, but its architecture (resembling that of a Unix-kernel) does make it more suitable for running as a server, although this is changing a bit now that it's becoming more of an all-rounder.

Stability does not have to be compromised by performance or features, not if the OS / Graphics package is designed properly. Did SGI's graphics eye-candy jeopardize it's speed or reliability? (OK, they've fallen on hard times recently, but think back about 5 years.)

Where did I state that Linux' stability compromises performance or features? I only said it often does and this is undoubtedly the case in some parts of the Linux-kernel.

Commercial games and Linux

[kevinank]

A couple of months ago I suggested a poll on the Linux Game Tome asking about the buying habits of linux gamers. Although the results are admittedly non-scientific, I thought the results were quite interesting.

Of the respondents almost two thirds had never purchased a commercial game for Linux; and their reasons for this broke down as follows:

1. None, Software should be free (27%)
2. None, the games available don't interest me (15%)
3. None, the games available are too expensive (12%)
4. None, the games available come out too late (8%)

What do you think that Loki can/has to do to remove these barriers? And if these challenges are unaddressed, what would you predict is the future of Linux gaming?

--

Re:Out of the Box

[squistle]

The slowness you're seeing is Mesa reverting to software rendering because it cannot access your hardware.

The reason for this can be as simple as using a 3Dfx in a non-fullscreen mode, or it may be something more complex like a bad Mesa/GLX configuration.

You may want to check our GL drivers [lokigames.com] page for information on getting everything set up correctly.

If you're still stumped, send us an email [mailto] with your system specs. While we don't technically support the demo, we do want you to have a good experience with it (how else are we going to sell anything?) and will gladly provide a few pointers to get you going.

Problems with non-uniformity?

[techmuse]

Scott, On most operatings systems, you probably have a guarantee that a certain set of libraries and services exist on every machine with that OS installed on it. On Linux, you (or Redhat or SUSE or whomever) can pick and choose which components should be installed or distributed. Does this cause problems for Loki's ability to produce games which will run on all (or nearly all) Linux machines? If so, how have you overcome this problem?

Beyond ia32

[jameson]

During software development, it usually appears to be easy enough to keep your code portable across architectures, as long as you don't risk mis-aligned memory access, don't use binary files excessively, and remember to test on different architectures.
I guess that things are a lot different if you have to deal with code that wasn't written with the explicit idea of being portable in the first place. How much extra effort was it to do the Alpha port of CTP? Do you think it was worth it? Will Loki continue to support Alpha and PPC architectures?

Maxis and Blizzard: When Do We Get New Games?

[Vladinator]

ABSOLUTELY! I really hope this gets mod'd up, because I too want to know when I'll be able to play broodwar in Linux. SC and SC:BW are the only things keeping WinDoze on my machine right now. I'd REALLY like to reclaim that space, and use it for productive purposes.

Also, are there any plans to port usefull non-game programs? Is Loki only going to stay in the game market, or are there any plans to diversify?

Hey Rob, Thanks for that tarball!

Re:Out of the Box

[Accipiter]

I actually took a day to try and get this thing working, and I haven't got it yet. I read the Step-by-step guide on the Loki GLDrivers page (I have a 3dfx voodoo3) and I have my system to the point where /usr/local/glide/bin/test3Dfx works fine. I've read the FAQs, the READMEs, and everything on linux.3dfx.com. Nothing seems to help.

/dev/3dfx is installed as well.

While we don't technically support the demo, we do want you to have a good experience with it (how else are we going to sell anything?) and will gladly provide a few pointers to get you going.

I appriciate that. Believe me, when and if I get this working I *will* buy the game. :)

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

When will you port Linux games to Win2K

[WillAffleck]

I've noticed a dearth of good Linux games being written for Windows 2000 and I was wondering when you were planning on porting games like LinCity to Windows 2000. Most of my old Win games don't work, and if you start porting games from Linux to Windows 2000, you might be able to save the OS from extinction. Do you have any firm plans in this area?

Also, could you make the explosions in this game really loud so I can taunt my boss with the sounds of my having fun? And maybe a Linux OS boss mode, so when he comes around the corner, I can toggle to a good Enlightenment screen so he'll think I'm working on something useful.

Thanks!

Security issues for ported games under Linux

[Butcher]

Back in the bad old days, I used to run Quake under Linux using svgalib - it had to be setuid root so that it could take over the console. Now that OpenGL support under Linux is approaching maturity, thank goodness this is no longer necessary. Every time Quake dumped core, I wondered if it was really wise for me to be running such a fragile setuid process.

Security and stability are closely linked, and the game industry has often been criticised for not focusing enough on either. With the unique challenges that a game running under Linux faces (multi-user environment, ability to snoop on what a process is doing, ease of writing network proxies or bots), what does Loki do to address these issues? What should game companies in general be doing? Have you got any anecdotes about security to relate? (I know there are some from Myth II!)

--
Chris Butcher
Code Monkey
Bungie Software [bungie.com]

Types of games?

[dmorin]

I was very happy when you ported Eric's Solitaire, because it was a game my fiance could play. But it seems like that's the exception, and that the majority of commercial games for Linux either now or in the future will be these war mongering RPGs, 3D shooters and the like. I'm sure that these are more popular with the gaming audience as a whole, but does that mean that there's no hope for some more simple games, like maybe a nice board game collection or some card games? No, I don't want yet another tetris, but I do think that the 80's with the pacmans (pacmen?) and qberts was the pinnacle of gaming and would be happy to see more games like that show up on the shelves.

Re:Out of the Box

[Accipiter]

What did I install? Everything on linux.3dfx.com that pertains to my system setup, as well as the latest q3demo from quake3.com.

Exactly? Got me... I've done so much shit to this box to try to get Q3 working, I'm not even entirely sure. But I think I can assume I have the latest versions of everything installed. (Except for the X server. I don't think I figured out how to get that in there.)

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Heh heh heh

[Greyfox]

I didn't E-Mail you my current cover letter, did I? It says something along the lines of "This is your lucky day! For a limited time, I'm willing to consider employment in your company. I will help the company I settle with mercilessly CRUSH their competition with an IRON fist, DESTROYING all who stand in our way! As I'm sure you don't want to be on the wrong end of THAT, I'm sure you're jumping for joy at this LIMITED TIME offer."

Of course, it kind of looks like IBM snapped me up first. Too bad for those poor fools who ignored the letter, huh? Well, they can't say I didn't warn them. Listen up you all! I don't want to hear any whining when we crush you! You had your chance and you BLEW IT!

I'm only a little psychotic. Really.

BTW: Mojo's evil insight is a definite necessity for crushing the competition, so you'd better hire him too.

Backward dialogs in CTP

[Greyfox]

I haven't checked to see if this is a problem with the other games, but in Civ:CTP, all the dialogs are backward from how every other GUI program on the planet works. The WHOLE interface works backward from how you expect. I had to sit and think for several minutes before I figured out what was up. An example is the cancel button being on the left. Every other GUI program on the planet puts it on the right.

Did you guys do that on purpose, was it a mistake on your part or was the original game like that? It is unnervingly difficult to get used to.

How about gaming hardware support for Linux?

[Kit Lo]

What can Loki do about support for simulator-related game hardware equipment? If one were to make or port a flight sim (driving sim, anything else associated with specialized controllers) for Linux, the optional hardware (joysticks, control panels, pedals, etc.) should be supported, right?

Does A3D have any plans to release the A3D 3D sound programming stuff to be used for Linux? If so, will A3D work with the Loki programmers to get the 3D sound working?
--

Re:X, NAS, and standards

[drix]

Isn't it kind of obvious? Just how much lag are you willing to induce, here? Piping sound and 3D graphics over the network is bound to introduce probably +50ms or more of latency - who knows, maybe more - and while that may not be much for mpg123 or a 3D rendering program, it's totally killer for an FPS. Nobody wants to buy a game where the single player mode plays like multiplayer, and the multiplayer plays even slower. I'm not familiar with Loki games personally, but I'm guessing that the "non-standard 3D stuff" is probably GLX with most of the feature-cruft cut out. Having hooks for running the 3D rendering on another box inside your 3D driver is bound to slow things down, and I have a feeling they're very speed conscious.

--

Re:Out of the Box

[Accipiter]

They already have. I own three Loki games, and they all worked straight out of the box.

So you're saying those 3 games represent every game available for Linux? And because those three games worked immediately, that means ALL games for Linux do the same? That's a bad assumption.

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?