id Software Announces Development Of Doom III 381
Stab writes: "John Carmack updated his .plan file with the startling news that id has had a bit of political infighting recently. In response to an ultimatum laid down to Kevin and Adrian regarding starting a new DOOM sequel, they fired Paul Steed! Read the full story in JC's .plan update." The important news here is that they're working on Doom III, but the decision to do so was a rough one for the company, not the developers. Note to Kevin and Adrian: Firing developers out of spite ain't cool.
Re:Extra more coolness (Score:2)
Their code is obviously a bit more scalable now. Modem play could transfer 15MB each way on my 56K under Q2 in a couple of hours. Playing on the LAN probably a lot more. We used to have up to 12 of use playing Q2 at the end of the day at work over 100Mbs ethernet. It did cause slow-downs, but our sub-net was isolated from the rest of the company, so that was no big deal really.
Re:Wish I'd seen that before I hired on. (Score:2)
Know your history... (Score:2)
Carmack did have no respect for the MacOS. Rightly. But what you've forgotten is Carmack's legendary woody for NEXTSTEP. Doom was, in fact, developed on NEXTSTEP (I run it all the time on my NeXTStation TurboColor), and he has repeatedly and enthusiastically plugged its development model.
JC's renewed enthusiasm for Apple is easy to understand, now that Jobs and the NeXT crew are running Apple, and OS X is basically NEXTSTEP 5.x
-Isaac
Re:It kinda depends on what you mean by "beyond" (Score:2)
Hey, lots of cool games involve running through tunnels killing things...
Re:What about final doom? (Score:2)
Re:note to emmit... (Score:2)
As an animation/modeler, he had as much a hand in shaping the Quake legacy as JC, IMHO.
Re:Wow (Score:2)
That's pretty cool. It's still rather far from the same experience. No player prediction and its still got a log of bugs.
I was also meaning the mulitplayer experience with the new DOOM game would be great. Adding a server based multiplayer to old DOOM is cool and all, but I drool at playing a new DOOM with a new Carmack enhanced engine over the 'net.
Re:Wow (Score:2)
No promises.
Extra more coolness (Score:2)
Hopefully this won't be a stupid Q3A type thing. Single player mode is also quite a bit of fun, plus it gives those of us with slow connections something to do between lan parties.
Steed's the man (Score:2)
I saw Paul Steed do a talk on modeling at a Quake-con a while back. He really knows his stuff... I can't wait to see who is lucky enough to get him next!
Re:Carmack (Score:2)
Steve was the boss at NeXT when he was ousted from Apple.
LK
Know yours (Score:2)
What do I care anyway? I'm done buying id games anyway. DeathMatch Du Jour with nothing new but spiffed up graphics isn't groundreaking or even noteworthy.
Quake like type games are more innovative than the originals. Half-Life for example was far more original than Q2 or Q3. Carmack and id are just living off of the hype from previous successes.
LK
Re:Semantic Arguments. Geez. (Score:2)
LK
Re:Know yours (Score:2)
Half Life and Kingpin blow Q2 out of the water. I'm tired of the run and shoot and run and shoot and run and shoot and run and shoot and run and shoot and run and shoot gameplay of id games.
LK
Re:Carmack (Score:2)
Want to lock up a Win 95 box tight?
#include
main(){
here: goto here;
return 0;}
The task scheduler will choke die if you run a program that wants only CPU and no memory or disk access.
LK
Carmack (Score:2)
Although I was disappointed because at the time I was an apple enthusiast. I would have had more respect for Carmack if he had either stuck to his guns or given a good reason for his change of heart.
LK
Damn straight (Score:2)
I'm curious what Emmett's idea of a "cool" way of running a business is. Seeing as Slashdot/VA_Linux is losing money hand-over-fist, I really don't think he's qualified. I'm sure people like him and Jon Katz think that it's "cool," in that trite I-wanna-be-a-rebel way, when a subordinate makes ultimata to the people running the show, but it's really not amusing in the least. Oh well, maybe his pals in the unemployment line will enjoy the tales of his tough-guy antics.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Re: Fatigue (Score:2)
Re:Wow (Score:2)
No need for (another) Doom remake (Score:2)
Alternate Carmack Finger Link (Score:2)
http://finger.planetqu ake.com/plan.asp?userid=johnc&id=14425 [planetquake.com]
Semantic Arguments. Geez. (Score:2)
The UI has changed; refined, reworked, upgraded, facelifted, whatever. It's not the MacOS anymore, any more or less than Windows98 is MacOS
The OS/kernal/core/system itself is different. Mach Kernel with BSD atop that, with NeXTisms atop that. Nothing in common with the traditional MacOS.
So the analogy with M$ is Apple is getting rid of MacOS to make MacOS X in the same way that M$ got rid of Windows9x to make WindowsNT or WindowsCE. There are compatibility layers for both, but it's underlying OS is non compatibile and unsimilar.
-AS
My 2 cents! (Score:2)
Lots of monsters on screen at once!
Monsters that don't get along...
Monsters that do get along...
Real time lighting and shadow. Seeing monsters moving in the darkness
Better directional sound! Immersion here!
Squadron tactics. Wiping out of demons as a team!
Voice over Network... JC always talks about it, lets hear it for real!
Of course we need tactically useful music...
Gadgets: Cloaking suits, night vision goggles, holographic decoys, etc.
Anything else?
-AS
Re:Kevin and Adrian (who control 50% of the compan (Score:2)
He controls the technology side, but there's a lot more to producing a game than making great engines.
If two rogue employees hold more than 50%
They are't rogue employees, I belive both Adrian and Kevin were co-founders of id (correct me if I'm wrong about that) with John Carmack and John Romero.
What's next, Carmack is fired because he wants to use reflective light sources that Kevin and Adrian are totally against?
Carmack has the last word on anything having to do with engine technology. Kevin (I belive) does the art for the games and Adrian is more on the business side (again, correct me if I'm wrong.)
Romero did a lot on game design, which IMHO is why the atmosphere of Doom and Quake kicked ass while the atmosphere of Quake 3 and especially Quake 2 blows nuts.....
Deathmatch is simply old and boring now and co-op is where it's at, at least for me and my friends when we do LAN parties.
Good for you, but I don't expect them to spend a lot of time on it because multiplayer is where its really at for most gammers. Get tired of deathmatch, try CTF or team fortress or one of the zillions of mods comming out for Quake 3, along with all the ones available for Quakes 1 and 2.
Don't expect the exact same DOOM (Score:2)
As you know, JC has recently been in "research" mode, and I'm sure JC is well-aware of the "yet another FPS" complaints. For these 2 reasons, it leads me to believe that DOOM 3 will take a different direction than previous DOOMs. The most suprising part of his
What other direction can a FPS-series take? I'm not sure, but I really suspect we're in for a surprise. The people at id seemed to reject Adrian's request for DOOM 3 for the same reasons some of you guys would probably, and I'm sure they took that into consideration.
What about final doom? (Score:2)
Re:That tense, adrenalized (sp?) feeling =:-) (Score:2)
1: The first time you meet one of the "invisible" versions of the pink demons. I freaked - shooting the shotgun off at random all over the place, thinking Sh*t sh*t it's invisible!!! ARRGH!
2: The first time you meet the CyberDemon. You start in this little room in the middle of the level, and you hear this roaring and stomping of an enemy you haven't met before... it was hard to go out and face him.
Ahh. Memories.
Too bad about the political infighting at ID though. You have to wonder what it's going to be like working there for John, Adrian, and Kevin, now that they've had such a nasty, public disagreement.
I honestly wonder if the company will stick together long enough to finish the game. It would not surprise me if the bad feelings escalate - after all, I bet Adrian and Kevin didn't expect John to post all the details of Paul Steed's firing in his plan.
Oh well. I suppose John, Graeme, Paul, and the rest could just leave and form a new company.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Re:Foolish and Unprofessional! (Score:2)
But an idiot? Nah, that must have been some other guy. I'm not gonna testify that PS was some incredible genius who left everyone except Carmack in the dust or anything, but he was plenty bright, enough to make good leaps of intuition... he wasn't the type who had to show his work to be able to get from A to B, and being hacker-ish myself, that's the kind of intelligence I respect.
I wouldn't want him to marry my sister, but I don't think he's at all stupid.
Re:This gives me a bad feeling... (Score:2)
My guess is that JC wrote some of the more complex routines, especially where things have to use engine features (traces and such) in complex ways, then left everything else to the other programmers. No need to waste the engine coder on writing movement code for some stupid monster.
Re:This gives me a bad feeling... (Score:2)
Rarely can someone make the shift in focus so smoothly and he's done a wonderful job of it. He's also the identity of the company. Even after the egos of Romero, Hook, and Steed, he's what people identify with id, and with successful game developers, quiet unassuming guys who pull successes out of the hat, one after another. If he leaves, he might as well take the name, 'cause he *is* id.
Re:There must be more than meets the eye. (Score:2)
This was owner vs owners, not management / employees. Some employees did get caught up in it, but it was a higher level fight.
Re:Firing and hiring in the same .plan (Score:2)
Then Q3A came out, and that changed. Q3A was an extremely polished game; one of the most polished I have ever played. The whole thing had a wonderful feel and looked and played consistently. There was a single goal, one driving vision behind the game: provide the best serious, hard-core deathmatch possible. I think it delivered spectacularly.
I look forward to the next Doom. The atmosphere in the original (Doom I episode I in particular) was just EERIE. Updated graphics and a new engine will be amazing.
UT vs Q3A vs Doom (Score:2)
I find it hard to play UT in a serious setting. The weapons just have have the same feel as Q3A's; by that I mean, they seem much more like a collection of toys that you use to just blast away the player. But Q3A just seems so much more serious and down-to-the-core of deathmatching, you know?
UT's Team Play is arguably better, but only because it includes more gameplay styles out-of-the-box. Q3:Team Arena should fix that. But I still enjoy CTF in Q3A more; the sniper rifle in UT is just painful. Too, too many games turn into boring snipe fests. I find Q3A tends to be a lot more fast-paced, without sacrificing the teamplay aspects.
But still, even after all these years, my all-time favorite deathmatch is Doom II. The addition of the double barrel shotgun was enough to add some speed and flavor to the game without breaking the balance (I think it actually improved upon the balance, as short range kills were now feasible against a skilled BFG user.) The speed was just insane; play Doom II DeathMatch for hours on end and you'll feel like you are high on some illegal substance. I haven't had that same adrenaline rush since...newer games are just too slow.
I hope id brings back the frantic pace in the new Doom.
Re:*drool* (Score:2)
Re:DEAR SWEET BABY JESUS IN A SLOP BUCKET! (Score:2)
Steed should have gone to the "Meta-internet" in order to post his opinion and criticisms of the Internet.
Yet another example of his enormous arrogance.
S.
Firing and hiring in the same .plan (Score:2)
He describes how a developer got canned
for political reasons and then in the same post
says that id is looking to hire.
Hmmm.....
Kevin and Adrian (who control 50% of the company) (Score:2)
I'm trying to figure out how someone as extremely intelligent as John let a company that he built from the ground up get into the hands of two obviously spiteful people.
What's next, Carmack is fired because he wants to use reflective light sources that Kevin and Adrian are totally against?
This could spell the beginning of the end for id I'm afraid.
As far as DooM III goes, I'm all for it *if* they do co-op play the way it was in DooM II. Deathmatch is simply old and boring now and co-op is where it's at, at least for me and my friends when we do LAN parties. For instance, last time we had a LAN party we spent 6 hours playing Rainbow Six co-op and about 20 minutes playing Quake III deathmatch. And even that was too long.
Let it die people... please! (Score:2)
I'm usually not this harsh, but this time I think I can make an exception.
I hated Doom. The FPS genre wasn't really worth playing until somewhere about the release of Duke3d.
Doom was much like all of ID's games. Too dark, and completely without any sort of personality.
Duke3d was a brilliant game, because it was fun to play. Your character had a personality.
At the time of Dooms original release I was still using my Amiga, and for the life of me I really couldn't see what all the fuss was about. You walked around with a gun in this poorly lit environment, unable to jump, taking hits from chunky looking baddies using a character with all the charisma of Sly Stallone.
Coming from a platform where fluid movement, and fun to control characters were the norm, I found doom one of the most boring experiences ever.
Doom II was no better. Then there was Quake, a game that had less different textures than I have fingers to count them on. That's if you could see them at all, it was so dark.
QuakeII, however, even though it looked a bit samey throughout was a good engine, and not a bad game.
Then came QuakeIII. A brilliant engine which was sadly lacking the game.
I can only hope that Duke Forever materialises to remind everyone what a truly fun game is like. But, in the same way Billy Corgan said it was hard to compete with the Britney Spears' of the world, it's really hard to compete with the Doom rehashes of the world!
End rant.
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge [insurge.com.au] - AK47
Net Play (Score:2)
Good (Score:2)
Re:Net Play (Score:2)
Level Reuse (Score:2)
Re: Fatigue (Score:2)
Slashdot joining in on the battle (Score:2)
Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I happen to think that majority stock holders should be able to decide what a company does and doesn't do. id is no exception, no matter how cool a new DOOM sounds like -- after all, we can't be sure what the other development alternatives are.
Re:Firing and hiring in the same .plan (Score:2)
//Phizzy
Re:There must be more than meets the eye. (Score:2)
Well...considering he's just stated that what he wants to be working on is Doom III, me; Doom is of course id's intellectual property. On the other hand, from a technical standpoint--which is what JC does anyways--your point still stands. Besides, assuming his leaving was mutual and relatively amicable, Kevin and Adrian might let John's new company use the Doom name anyways (like they're letting Xatrix make a new Wolfenstein).
Re:Wow (Score:2)
I'm glad to hear somebody else feels this way! I really am tired of the "heavy-metal-bang-your-head-until-your-ears-bleed
Re:Firing and hiring in the same .plan (Score:2)
In reality, employers have to be super-careful when firing people, because of the potential for a wrongful dismissal lawsuit. Happens fairly often.
I really don't think it is good practice from a business, ethical or legal standpoint to do your firings in public or otherwise air your dirty laundry like Id is in this case, or like the Rasterman/Red Hat fiasco that went down a year or so ago. Just my opinion.
BTW, I'm not a lawyer; I just play one on TV.
Re:Slashdot joining in on the battle (Score:2)
The majority of stock holders still do decide what a company does and doesn't do. If they want to follow their own path that's fine, but if someone like JC decides it doesn't suit his interests he's just as free to say bye and leave. Which in the case of a person like JC would be a major blow to ID, not just the lost of his skills, but the loss of his name. I'd never heard of the other two people before, but I had heard lots about JC before.
And pressuring people to take a path they're not willing to take exists everywhere in life, just not in companies, but also in creation of laws, in deciding what a group will do, heck even what a group of friends are going to do in a night. If slashdot wants to see a Doom3 there's no reason why they shouldn't try to pressure ID into creating it.
I disagree with point 2. (Score:2)
John Carmack is good. John Carmack is not god.
To work at iD software, you have to be the "best of the best" -- and be proven at what you do. Not just any joe-schmoe walks off the street and gets in because "the company can rely on the one guy who does all the work"
John does engine work with 2 other programmers. There are also 3 level mappers and 3 character animators. This is a balanced company, even if one of the guys happens to be so skilled at one thing he does that he is revered as a god.
---
I wonder if that means I will be making pwads... (Score:2)
Re: Fatigue (Score:2)
I play a lot of Counterstrike (the most popular mod for Halflife online), and while it does slow you down when you are carrying a lot of stuff, its based on what weapon you have in your hand, not what you are carrying, so switching to the knife means you can run faster with a heavy weapon and lots of ammo. Kinda lame in the reality sense.
I do see any reason why they could not add a "fatigue meter" which reflects how much exertion you are putting out, slows down your reactions when high, and cycles down when you rest. I think this would add a bit of realism to games without taking away the fun factor of being able to haul around heavy weapons and loads of ammo. It would also equalize things for the poor schmuck who only has a pistol when you have an AK47. If you just ran a long ways and your aim and speed were affected while he has been at rest the entire time, then he might be able to pop you when you meet.
While not realistic overall, I think CS is probably better than most games out there for the balancing realism vs gameplay. Except for the stupid leaping maneuver to avoid being shot which I think they should eliminate.
Re:Whoopee. (Score:2)
Re:Wish I'd seen that before I hired on. (Score:2)
*drool* (Score:2)
When I first read this article on some other site, I somehow understood it as news that they were going to rerelease the original version, but with updated tech. That would have been awesome! Oh, well. A geek's gotta dream....
Now, if only someone would get started on Wolfenstein 2001, we'd have it made!
Gamespot remakes... (Score:2)
Gamespot did a feature on the top ten games which should be remade. Doom finished third for atmosphere. A link is here [gamespot.com].
employment rights (Score:2)
It sounds like unfair dismissal to me. I don't know about US law, but the UK you can sue if an employer does this. I know, because it's happened to me, and I did, and I won.
Any questions?
Thad
Re:Slashdot joining in on the battle (Score:2)
I'm quite let down on Slashdot posting this -- it's obvious that there is more than a single truth on the matter and Slashdot is just adding ammunition to an internal id battle on the issue.
Uh, Slashdot is just reporting the news. JC's plan is on the public record. It's newsworthy. You are free to make of it what you will.
Re:There must be more than meets the eye. (Score:2)
Bottom line, who doesn't believe that if John Carmack left ID tomorrow he would be able to continue working on what he wants, the only question is if he stays with ID can he work with who he wants? It is a power struggle between the developers whose products bring the sales and the owners who reap the rewards with Carmack saying that he ain't going to take no fscking tihs.
Same here... (Score:2)
UT and QA:3 are good games in my opinon - if you really like shooting your friends over and over for hours on end :-) I do - we host lan parties at my house from time to time, and it's a blast!
But the basic game? Doom / Doom 2 are better games. I don't know how many hours of gameplay I've put into those two, but, it probably amounts to much more than I put into QI, QII, Q3:A, Unreal, and UT together for each of them. Doom was truely adictive!
No matter what they do, it "won't be it" *SNIFF* (Score:2)
- No more hassle loading half-working IPX packet drivers in DOS. I really enjoyed spending hours trying to get extremely bad coded TSRs to work for Multiplayer DOOM!
- No more sluggish, horrible mouse control where you had to mess with the mouse driver's sensitivity to make it any usable, so that it would give you an unfair edge in the game.
- No more "visual" weapons, like the BFG. (Ha, my shot hit the wall, but then, who cares, I was looking at you, so now you're getting torn into little pieces anyway!)
- No more "Hey! That's unfair, my keyboard buffer was full, it just kept beeping while I stood there silly! You're taking unfair advantage, YOU SUCK!!"
- And finally, no "global sound" allowing you to know exactly where the others are, just by hearing the sound of a swith pulled on the other side of the map.
So you see? I just won't be it. I don't care if they call it DOOM, it won't be MY DOOM. How sad. (Wet eyes, *SNIFF*)
It kinda depends on what you mean by "beyond" (Score:2)
Tribes, for example. Team-based, mostly outdoors (the maps seem to be at least a kilometer across), and reasonably tactical (winning has nothing to do with how many times you kill or get killed, even though you'll do lots of both).
As far as upcoming games go, there's always Halo, although there'll probably be lots of shooting in that one too, so maybe it's not such a great example.
. . . but then there's the various massively-multiplayer games, which I personally haven't played (paying $50 for a game, and then another $10/month for the privilege of continuing to play strikes me as somewhat offensive, even if I do understand the financial argument behind it). I'm led to believe that it's possible to have a grand old time just wandering around and meeting people, but I could be wrong on that.
Of course, if we set aside the entire genre of "shooters" then there's all sorts of bizarro gaming available -- 3D Trophy Bass Fishing, anyone? Lots of racing/sports games, and plenty of puzzlers too.
However, you do make a good point -- much of the innovation in the shooter market is simply upping the graphics requirements. But don't forget, there are other genres available . . .
Well, I'm not sure if I really have a point here, except to say that there's lots of variety, even in the shooter market.
It's not Doom 3 !!! (Score:2)
--
I've got an idea for the name: (Score:2)
Maybe running through tunnels on search and destroy missions is your bag, but it certainly is not mine. When will id come up with (ahem) A NEW IDEA?
--
Re:Slashdot joining in on the battle (Score:2)
Answer me this question: Does id show Due Diligence best by working on a game which lots of people will probably buy and will be fun, and it will be the kind of game we want to play because Carmack is a gamer, or by firing possibly some of the most important developers in the scene today?
I think the answer is a resounding "duh". What /. is showing here is that we, the gaming public, are for the most part behind Carmack on this one. So id is really just protecting the interests of the company here.
There is an old adage that says that when someone becomes indispensible to your organization, you need to dispense of them as quickly as possible. If id doesn't like the position they're in, then they should find a way to remove Carmack. (John, don't hate me if you get fired because of this post!) But since there's really (again IMO) no way for them to get rid of JC without becoming YALGD (Yet Another Lame Game Developer) they're just going to have to suck it up.
JC ain't the whole story, but in many minds, JC IS id. Never forget that.
Re:*SIGH* (Score:2)
Seriously, if a level is named "chemical plant" or "spacecraft hanger" it should look like one, and not just another mass of anonymous tunnels.
Nobody cares about the "story line", anyway.
Re:Read a bit more carefully (Score:2)
When Quake came along, it changed everything. No previous FPS ever seemed worthy of my prolonged attention, but Quake got its hooks in me. The true-3D engine made point-and-click fragging a reality. I became a deathmatch addict, and lost whole nights of sleep launching rockets and nails at complete strangers.
I may get flamed for this, since we all hate what a jerk Lucas has been lately, but I gotta point out that the best FPS story-lines I've seen are the ones from LucasArts.
Outlaws is a 2.5D shooter, but the gameplay makes you feel like you really are John Wayne or Clint Eastwood, walking through the center of town with your spencer rifle and six-shooter. The "reload" requirement adds a lot to getting the pacing of the action just right. Install the 3D patch, and everything looks just like the animated cut scenes. :)
Jedi Knight had pathetic multiplay, but the solo game was far better than anything ID has ever come up with.
Not In Texas (Score:2)
In this case, iD is in Texas. Though it may be a Delaware corporation, I'll bet dollars to donuts that its employment contracts have a 'Choice of Law' clause that specifies Texas Law to be used to settle disputes.
Texas is an "At Will" employment law state. That means either party can terminate an employment contract "at will." That means you do not have to give reasons, beyond some minimum guarantees that the decision was not unconstitutionally discriminatory, i.e., based on race, gender, etc.
Some states do have "Right To Work" employment laws, but I believe they're in the minority.
So in "At Will" states, even if you do an excellent job, that "You're fired!" that comes out of the blue is perfectly legal.
Hack The Law. (.com coming soon I hope)
Re:*drool* - GLDoom (Score:2)
Re:Ugh! (Score:2)
Doom3 MIGHT work with a few suggestions... (Score:2)
The also need to have MANY creatures swaming you. Everyone remembers the rooms with 20-30 soldiers in them all swarming you, only to be blown to bits by a BFG. The most creatures the Quake series had on screen was maybe 5 creatures. We got the horsepower here folks, lets use it. It was a hallmark of the Doom series. TONS AND TONS of creatures on the screen at once. A huge gorefest with the plasma gun and BFG. It's what made the game FUN.
Outdoor areas. We need HUGE ones, throw in fog if you gotta, but the levels need to be HUGE. Giant outdoor areas with huge scifi buildings in the middle.None of this Quake stuff where a level LOOKED big, then you got filtered into a building via a tunnel to hide the flaws of the engine. We need Jedi Knight type areas with Quake Technology.
We need all the weapons back, and maybe 5-10 more.
I hate to say it, but get Romero back in the gang. After Diakatana the guy has proven he can't work outside of id software. I really think he had an awesome role with the Doom series. I know he was around for Quake .. And that was ALMOST cool.. But they were too limited to technology back then.. Maybe they dont need him, im not sure..
As for firing Steed, dunno what to say. It just sounds like a lame thing to do. I sure wouldnt want a job there after reading that mess. Screw that!
Personally, if I were Carmack, i'd leave the company and go work for Verant on Everquest 2 or something..
Re:*SIGH* (Score:2)
OK, and here it is (Score:3)
6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting
Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated
explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.
As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM
as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill
to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea
that it was shot down over and over again.
Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the
mission pack development and my research work.
Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan,
the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what
we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and
more like we weren't going down the right path.
I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was
important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.
An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company):
We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.
Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed,
new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.
It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a
new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand
new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to
say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We
will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving
misleading comments.
It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for
dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be
one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.
We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you
have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider
yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.
finger johnc@idsoftware.com | less; avoid HTTP (Score:3)
The site is
Ugh! (Score:3)
Basically, so far, is seems Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack (no relation) have had a fit over J. Carmack and gang wanting to work on a Doom remake. No matter what game id cranks out, it's going to sell at least marginally well. I can see no justification for two guys to fire Paul Steed just to get back at Carmack for doing what he and the development staff WANT to work on.
It reeks of arrogance so far and I really hope Steed gets back on the project. While he's known to be an asshole, I think he's the right guy to work on Doom 2000 models and animations. And in the end, I trust J. Carmack over Adrian and Kevin when it comes to what is a good game and who is good for the job.
And many people have been giving Carmack shit for exposing this publically. Well, good. I like to know why Steed is gone and what kind of position Carmack is in. I hope I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but Carmack seems to be the kind of guy who just wants to be left alone to do his own thing and not deal with politcal business crap.
Until Kevin and Adrian have some kind of rational other than, "we don't want to do D2K", shame on them!
Bad Mojo [rps.net]
Re:Slashdot joining in on the battle (Score:3)
It's also worth noting that Carmack seems to just want to code and work on something fun. There is much wonder as to wether id would be where it is without him. I don't think it would be for sure. To deny Carmack (and the others there) to work on a project they enjoy seems to be cutting into the way id has worked in the past. id is not a BIG company and they don't work like one. So any attitude that the major share holders are always right, is wrong.
Bad Mojo [rps.net]
Still prefer Doom to Quake.... (Score:3)
Problem I can see is, how would Doom 3 build on the earlier Doom games ? I suspect better resolution bad guys may paradoxically lower the creepiness factor.
For fun and sillyness, I think cooperative multiplayer Nightmare Doom, with monsters, has a lot to recommend it. Seems to get to the point where all the monsters are congregating round the resurrection points and you can't get anywhere....
Re:Firing and hiring in the same .plan (Score:3)
Move along folks, no conspiracy here.
OF COURSE he is looking to hire. If you just lost a wonderful 3D Artist, wouldn't you want to get another one right away?
Re:Firing and hiring in the same .plan (Score:3)
Now as to the wisdom of such an action....well, I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
That tense, adrenalized (sp?) feeling =:-) (Score:3)
In any case, the one where i first experienced DOOM in it's fullness was there, in a darkened room, with the 21" in front of me, and his sound card hooked up to the stereo. That feeling of your heart racing as you creep down a darkened passageway and have one of those ugly pink buggers with the lumpy heads come loking up on you is just unbeatable. Only a couple games ever gave me that feeling. It would be the following: Alien Breed (on the Amiga. Basicly a gauntlet knock off, but with Alien dudes, and _awesome_ sound), DOOM, and Alone In The Dark, which i wish somebody would remake for modern 3D technology. AITD was basicly like that old nintendo game "shadowgate" but realtime 3rd person 3d. Cool =:-)
So what does this mean... (Score:3)
*SIGH* (Score:3)
Death, where is thy sting?
This is bad in so many ways (Score:3)
- Possibility number 1: Adrian and Kevin undermine the entire development of Doom III to prove their point. If they were willing to fire an employee IN RETALIATION, they have the guts to kill a product simply out of spite. Expected result: Id goes under.
- Possibility number 2: Company relations go down the shitter faster than they did at Ion Storm. John Carmack says "fuck this" and leaves. Without the only man who keeps this company alive, Id goes under.
- Possibility number 3: John Carmack and, say, Activision try to buy back A & K's shares. They won't sell, and the company goes under.
When company owners disagree violently on the direction their business is taking, there are two possible outcomes: someone leaves, or the place fights until it's out of money.Goodbye ID. Thanks for all the fish.
"The advance of technology is a problem for us"
Re:*SIGH* (Score:3)
Imagine the following:
Let's see, a demon that fires balls of fire...oops, forgot they don't exist.
How about a plasma gun that...oh yeah, nobody's ever built a working plasma gun that's smaller than a boxcar...
Ok, how about..oh hell, just scrap it.
In general, for a *game* you keep what's fun and scratch what's not. It's not fun to "realistically" model fatigue from running with a full kit for most people. It is fun to "realistically" model the physics of bouncing objects and light diffraction because it increases the suspension of disbelief by making the world you're gaming in more similar to our own in an immediately visible sense. Perhaps if we develop a neural shunt that allows us to feel weight then it would make sense to model carrying load and fatigue.
If you feel differently, make your own game, perhaps others feel as you do. You could call it "quiver" (for what you're legs do when you pick up 500 odd rounds of ammo for various weapons, and 200 pounds of hardware + body armor).
Doom Wars... (Score:3)
Carmack should stand up for Steed (Score:4)
Seriously, take the loyal talent and start somewhere else. This would be the perfect time to leave before getting into the middle of the next project. Sure, it wouldn't be doom, but you know it would be something nifty and fun, right?
It just seems wrong that the people who made id aren't the people who get a say in what it does. There's a whole group of talented people possibly going to go to waste here... who's next to be fired? Who would want to work there based on this kind of display? Isn't it hard to be creative when you're watching your back or fighting just to get your job done?
I just can't imagine sitting at a desk working on Doom 3 and accepting that I got my wish and it only cost one guy his job. That's bad karma, man.
Carmack, you've got the talent to make it work. Do the right thing. A lot of people are looking up to you...
Cool (Score:4)
I always thought Doom had a much more believable environment, atmosphere...even though it didn't have neat-o polygon graphics. Doom (hey, and even Wolf3d) kept me on the edge of my seat a lot more than Quake or Quake 2 did. I hope id is returning to spending a lot of time creating a rich atmosphere instead of just throwing more graphics on the screen at a faster rate (which I agree is itself a great accomplishment that has taken a tremendous amount of skill and effort).
I can't wait to get back to that good ole double barrel shotgun
I'm liking this (Score:4)
Call it nostalgia, whatever, but there was some magic in firing up Doom shareware for the first time on my old 486-66 w/ 4MB RAM, and just playing for hours, completely immersed in the game. When I got Doom II, I couldn't put it down for weeks, it just drew me into it.. no other game before or since, except Diablo, has ever had that effect on me.
I used to have nightmares about cyberdemons
Last August, a friend of mine and I decided, on a whim, to relive past glories and play some Doom II deathmatches again.. well, we did that, and it was still as fun as it ever had been (fancy 3d graphics be damned! gameplay is still king *grin*).. so fun, in fact, that we then played through all 33 levels cooperatively.. I can't remember the last time I had so much pure enjoyment from any game. It was bliss.
Wow (Score:5)
Well, I'm not surprised that he (and others there) would like to make another DOOM. DOOM was a very successful product and an incredible game. Capturing its spirit will be a challenge since a lot of DOOM's factors were in its ability to give you such an impending sense of danger and power:
But there are some issues--when DOOM came out, people were new to the first person shooter genre and one of the reasons DOOM was such a fun game was as you learned how to play you started being able to kill monsters better. These days I (and most experienced players) can run rings around a Cyberdemon and toy with him. DOOM taught me how to strafe, dammit.
It's a shame to see Paul let go. He was certainly one who didn't have any problem expressing his opinions. But he could sure pound out some amazing 3D models. His work in Quake2 and Quake3 was outstanding--it's sad to see his art won't be in the new DOOM.
A part of me is upset with my own disassocation with id. I would have loved working on DOOM CTF levels.
In any case, I can't wait to see what id can come up with in a new DOOM. I want to be scared all over again.
There must be more than meets the eye. (Score:5)
Remember that JC's
My suspicion is that Steed's firing must have been a result of more than just this one incident. It may have been the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. I don't think management would draw sticks or do the poisoned donut routine to determine who-gets-the-shaft-so-we-can-get-back-at-cormack. There must have been some reasoning behind their move.
Making a soap opera of id's internal politics may be entertaining for us, but personally I don't think it is any of our business. How many companies would allow employees to publically release information about internal politics like JC did?
It's a shame when any skilled employee has to leave a company because of social reasons and not because of lack of proficiency. I hope Steed's career goes well (I'm sure it will), and that life at id will continue normally (not likely).
My sympathies to Steed and id.
remember... it's just a game.
- j
Wish I'd seen that before I hired on. (Score:5)
I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but id's politics have always been incredibly severe. It's sort of a treehouse/boy's club atmosphere, very charged with adrenaline, egos, and testosterone. I loved it and contributed to it. It's an infectious behavior. Romero and Kevin, in particular, would use their 18 Charismas to make the politics fun. Don't ask me how that's possible. You'd have to be there. It's very colourful. You forgive the atmosphere pretty quickly when they start plopping multiple 5- and 6-figure bonuses in your lap.
But it's actually nice to see John put that in his plan file. It's more truthful advertising if the prospective employees know what's going on behind the curtain. These same kind of politics affect your bonuses, your workload, and frankly your general health if you're prone to stress-related problems like ulcers, skin problems, or gum disease. You guys would be pretty shocked to hear the real stories of how several of id's talented people left the company, but it's never a binary, "He humped a farm animal on company time."
This is definitely not the sign of an id implosion. Kevin and Adrian won't be pleased about John's plan file, but they're fundamentally level-headed businessmen and will probably get over it. John won't stop coding. Everything he does is fun to work with, and if they fire John, the daily miracles that time the id engine will simply move elsewhere.
I do ABSOLUTELY recommend if you're a talented artist to apply for the position. It's an adventure unlike anything you'll embark. You'll make grievous wads of cash. You'll gape at the bizarre effects of instant media focus. You'll get to watch and learn from some of the industry's finest talent. You'll fear for your mortal soul if you get a ride from John to work. You'll have access to almost any software tool or piece of hardware you want to get your hands on.
It's a growth experience.
Open letter to John Carmack (Score:5)
Please, for the love of god, don't make this one brown.
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
Note to Emmett (Score:5)
Assuming that one person's comments sum up the objective truth of a matter also ain't cool. 9)
-Ed
Whoopee. (Score:5)
I realize that everyone reading this story gets a hardon when you say the word "Doom" and so I can kiss karma goodbye, but come on! Wolfenstein was revolutionary. Doom was "advanced". Everything since then is "copycat". Yes, even the stuff from id.
Will we ever get beyond 1st person shooters? Don't give me crap about "Quake is revolutionary, some of the monsters are green" either. I want a NEW GAME. I don't want to play the SAME GAME except for the requirement of a NEW VIDEO CARD.
--
Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?
This gives me a bad feeling... (Score:5)
oh gee another game my sister can beat me at (Score:5)
Comment removed (Score:5)
Various Doom versions... (Score:5)
Actually, there are already quite a few versions of Doom with some updated technology in them. OpenGL implementations are a good example (though the first GLDoom didn't get finished, unluckly :-( ) There are hacks that add better handling of sectors for more advanced maps, hacks that add the look up / look down, all sorts of stuff.
Depending on what you mean by Doom with 'updated tech', just adding better graphics won't bring it up to par with Quake3 or Unreal Tournament. Doom uses 2D sprites, which only leaves 8 positions that the bad guys can be viewed from (on the up side - that's also the reason why you can have tons and tons of enemies on screen without major slowdowns!) Look up / Down is highly problematic (partialy because of the 2D sprite issue), the maps are "2.5 D" maps - while they have a height setting, areas cannot cross over each other, etc., etc., etc.
Doom is pretty old tech... Damn I love Doom still! Just upgrading the tech isn't quite enough, however, it would require a complete re-write, and everyone would end up bitching about some of the failings of Doom if they didn't. I do hope they do the next Doom correct - a nice scary atmosphere, tons of monsters, etc.
Meanwhile - go look at some of the current modified Doom engines out there:
Doom Legacy [doomlegacy.com] offers quite a few extended things from Doom, including 32 player multi-player games
DoomWorld [doomworld.com] is a good site for tracking down all the other Doom source ports and modifications, plus news of things like Doom for Daikatana (why?), Doom for QA3, etc.
Let me guess... (Score:5)
I don't think so. Perhaps the reason that there was a huge fight inside ID about this (and we've only heard one side of it, remember) is that the company's owners know what the phrase "One Trick Pony" means.
I remember playing Doom for the first time as vividly as anyone. But what all the Doom-nostalgics out there don't seem to realise is that it is impossible for you to re-live the experience you had when when you first played Doom. You can't pretend you've never played a game like it before. You can't roll the clock back. Read Proust and see for yourself. That's what being nostalgic means, and why nostalgia is related to melancholy. You're want to relive a past experience but you can't.
The only thing that's going to produce a similar experience --- that "Oh my God I'm completely absorbed by this amazing new thing" feeling --- is a wholly new kind of game, and sadly Doom III ain't going to be it, by definition. By embarking on this project, Id are starting to look like the Microsoft of gaming: Doom, Doom 95, Doom 2000... and I bet that's why Kevin and Adrian made such a fuss over the project.
Foolish and Unprofessional! (Score:5)
That being said, I cannot understand why anybody would respond to the request for applications that was posted in that
The firing of Steed casts a cloud around the eventual release of Doom III and the need to train another employee at this time could delay or reduce the quality of the product. id's behavior in this case is very unprofessional and management clearly did not consider the best interests of the company or the consumers.