

Examination of Indrema Linux console 70
James Hills writes: "Linux gaming is a hot topic today. However, many problems still plague the infant platform, such as standards and a central company to enforce those standards. Indrema, a recently formed San Francisco Bay Area-based company plans to change this with the release of the Indrema Entertainment System (IES) by next spring." We mentioned the Indrema System last March, but its nice to know some progress is being made ... it looks at least less vaporous now.
The Playstation 2 as a Linux Platform (Score:1)
The Indrema console looks very cool, but while we're waiting for it's launch in spring, here's something else to chew on: The Playstation 2 might just be able to run Linux, with a lot of ingenuity.
The hardware is a mixed bag. At it's heart is a MIPS processor (fully supported by the kernel). The hard drive and ethernet in the US version are also pretty standard. The graphics chips are proprietary, with no documentation (doh!), but they are licensable, which could mean that if some very rich hackers (possible use for IPO money?) got together they could buy documentation for the chips and write an X-server, GL driver, etc.
Of course, it wouldn't be easy, and I'd much rather spend $300 supporting Indrema, a company which is supporting amateur developers and open source, than Sony. Still, it's an interesting project for anyone who's interested.
Can't do that... (Score:1)
Since it's proprietary, no GPL program can ever be linked to it (see KDE), which would make running it under linux even more of a waste. Not that most games are GPL'd. Other people are trying to make similar stuff, but it never works quite right, and they don't have the finances to hire programmers for the big push it takes to finish projects of that scope.
I've said this before on this board, but BeOS would be a great runtime environment for games. Strip it down so it takes 100MB of the HD, just for the environment and drivers, then boot into it with System Commander to play video games off the CD/main HD part.
Not that it matters, anyway. PCs are really losing popularity as game machines: the consoles are so well developed now that they'll soon exceed PCs for all kinds of games. Add in Broadband and you won't need a $2500 game machine anymore.
It's a real shame, I think. A lot of us got immersed in computing by pirating games on the C64. Where's the learning environment going to come from if the only game's the one they advertise?
-jpowers
This is beyond vapor (Score:2)
This is so LinuxOne-esque, it's not even funny. If there could be a funny part, though, it would have to be watching just about everyone around here try so dang hard not to say a bad word about it.
This actually would make a classic social experiment. Go through the article and change all the Linux references to Microsoft ones (difficult, I know -- there are some parts which will probably just have to be deleted -- but a decent job could be done), then show it to your Slashdotter friends who haven't seen this article. Figure out the percentage of them that are a) rolling in the aisles with laughter, b) up in arms, screaming about monopolies, or any other choices you can come up with. If anyone goes through with this, keep us posted! :)
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Re:Not seeing the Linux / console connection (Score:2)
On the x86 PC platform that may be true, but that is not what we're talking about here. Consoles (and set-top boxes, and networked `appliances' or whatever name they have tomorrow) are still OS-neutral, as long as it does the job it is OK. So now what counts is which OS does the job in a satisfying manner both for the user as well as for the designer, manufacturer and software developer. Look at Netpliance's i-Opener (QNX) for an example of a device which is totally `consumer space' oriented, yet lacks even a single bit of Win32 software. The hardware platform supports it, but it is not used, instead they chose QNX. Why? Probably for reasons of size (small), stability (good) and maybe licensing fees (no idea really). Linux can also be made small, it can be very stable in the right configuration, and licensing fees are a non-issue.
So i'd say there Win32 (or Winwhatever) is not the de-facto API for these applications...
Re:Not seeing the Linux / console connection (Score:2)
Re:Cool Console Games (Score:1)
Well, now that Perfect Dark is out in au...
Duh, it's Microsoft (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Halo exclusively for the X-Box? (Score:1)
I only care for one opinion: Loki's (Score:3)
If Loki partners with these guys and says "yeah, we'll make games for it, and we'll give the SDK to make games for it a shot as well", then I'll be incredibly excited, and will be lining up outside Fry's or wherever the day these things go on sale.
If not, then it's gonna be a bumpy ride, for sure.
Re:All very clever, but (Score:1)
Of course, most of them didn't solder it themselves to the board. Some stores around here (Zürich/Switzerland) will install it for a fee of around CHF 80.-- (about 60 $)
Linux games (Score:1)
Only way a "linux console" can be significant (Score:1)
market force, is by focusing on the strengths that
make linux a market force today:
1. free, or dirt cheap to the consumer
There needs to be an OPEN SPECIFICATION on
"This is an L-Box". Presumably, something like "The box runs Mesa-2.0(compatible), with *hardware* support for x,y, and z. The Joystick interface will be this. The fizbobble interface
will be this API."
That way, those who want to buy a cheap box, can buy a box from whoever wants to make specialized cheap hardware. But otherwise, you get a jumpstart on a huge userbase, with existing "normal" linux systems.
O course, it's real difficult to compete against subsidized hardware. But this doesnt change the truth of rule #1.
2. zero license fees to game-makers.
Let's face it: The only way you're going to get studios to take a gamble on this, is if you say, "Hey, want to keep ALL the software revenue?"
If they want to pay license fees, they can already do that to Sony, Nintendo, etc.
Re:grammer? (Score:1)
what he said is still true. If one fat
person calls another one fat does that make
the statement less true? To many people
play off faults because the one telling them
isn't perfect. What's fact is fact no matter
what the source telling you is.
Thanks
Bone to pick with Article (Score:1)
Does this really have anything to do with what Indrema is doing with their gaming system? They may perhaps enforce standards within the realm of their console, but certainly not within the realm of Linux! One of the many things that makes Linux truly beautiful is the fact that such standards as exist, exist by the choice of its users. If I wanted enforced standards I'd stick to Windows!
Also, I get a bit ticked when people use terms such as "infant platform" -- Linux has been around much longer than Windows95 has been ('92 vs. 96), and being 100% POSIX compliant makes it semi-quasi-UNIX, which was spawned in the 70's.
I know, I know, Linux ain't UNIX, because it doesn't share it's source code, but hey! If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck and tastes like a duck...
Haiku (Score:3)
Wireless net game connection:
Quake 3 at the pool!
Hey! Closed Standards! Cool! (Score:2)
I apologise. I have clearly spent the whole of my life misunderstanding standards. Apparently, you need a central company to enforce them. I am so sorry for having thought that open standards work, and closed ones don't. Where do I sign up for re-education?
Please, just look at which standards are used and which aren't. TCP/IP is used by quite a lot of systems. AppleTalk isn't. FTP is used a fair bit. ICQ's proprietary 'send file' doesn't seem to be very popular outside AOL. More people use Ethernet on LANs than use Myrinet (which is often faster). More VCRs use VHS than (the technologically superior) Betamax.
What do the successful standards have in common, I wonder? Are they managed by a single company? I think not.
A standard is only succesful if it is truly open. If it's not, why should I (or anyone else) invest time, effort and shedloads of money developing for it? What's the guarantee that the 'controller' of the standard won't change it tomorrow for competitive advantage? Ever looked at Microsoft Office file formats? They are almost always incompatible between versions.
Succesful standards are there because they get used by lots of people. They get used by lots of people because those users believe that the standard will be stable, and that they can (if neccesary) influence development of the standard.
If you want a gaming standard for Linux (by which I assume you really mean X), then propose one. Invite the interested parties to contribute. Encourage feedback. Keep the process open. I'll say that again: Keep the process open.
Who do you trust for Internet standards? IETF [ietf.org] or Microsith [microsith.com]?
The Linux standard (Score:1)
Re:Not seeing the Linux / console connection (Score:2)
Console operating systems (Score:1)
is usually just a thin layer of abstraction between the game and the support hardware.
The Linux kernel, miniature and neat though it is,
would surely be overkill in such a context.
Besides, specialist drivers would be needed for
whatever custom hardware is on board, and once these are written then a custom console OS is well within reach.
Having said that, the advent of online gaming and other potential uses for consoles (eg. web browsing/email through your TV) would make a rather better case for using a Linux kernel.
(I'm just waiting for the first `Beowulf' comment...
Perhaps it's viable (Score:1)
Perhaps the opposite can also be made to work. Sell your console at a higher price than the competitors but have a bunch of cool games available for less. I mean these days the cost of a console is offset by the price of four console games! If someone offers a console that is reasonably priced but has games priced in a sensible range I will be tempted to purchase. So far my biggest gripe with consoles has been that the game offerings are mediocre in quality and outrageous in price (often twice the price of the PC port). I imagine they'll use opensource APIs for sound and graphics so the way for them to make money has to be from selling the hardware itself.
BTW. I have less to do with games programming than my name would imply :-).
Congratulations! (Score:1)
I know this will be painful and difficult, but please see it as your first step towards becoming a civilised human being.
If you feel unable to move onwards at this stage in your social development, please consider going out, buying some spray cans and defacing a public building. Believe me, that takes more skill than writing trivial scripts and posting the output.
Re:This is great but... (Score:1)
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
NPS Internet Solutions, LLC
www.npsis.com [npsis.com]
Re:All very clever, but (Score:1)
Metrion (Score:1)
Gee how many toys say: "you put it together" (Score:1)
"A central company to enforce"? (Score:1)
Beware the closed API my children, for it is the start of Evil. We cannot let companys get us to depend upon closed APIs as "Standards" again, I think we learned our lesson on that one the hard way.
I'll play the games, but I think the real future is in X 4.0, and all it's fun toys. Besides, the problem is not really the APIs, its the package system for games, and that's pretty much solved.
-- Crutcher --
Re:Not seeing the Linux / console connection (Score:1)
I know that they are. Didn't you see the part about planned dvd and mp3 support, with Tivo-ish capabilities added later on? This will be a total set-top box, not just a gaming platform.
The best part is, if Indrema tanks, you can always use it as a not-so-thin client ;) It was built with commodity hardware and was specifically designed for Linux, so loading Slackware or Debian or whatever on it would be no big deal.
Here's my [radiks.net] DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?
Re:Console operating systems (Score:1)
Yes, it would. However, Indrema intends to do so much more than gaming with this. They are talking about playing DVDs, and mp3s with this. They are even planning to implement a Tivo-ish ability to pause and buffer live television. So, the Linux kernel will deffinately not just be overhead.
Here's my [radiks.net] DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?
Re:Wanted: Killer Apps (Score:2)
Sorry for the extremely off-topic post, but I have a question - a few days ago I started playing FF2 with snes9x (great game so far, BTW) I also have a ROM of FF4 which appears to be the exact same game, but badly (VERY badly) translated from Japanese. What's the deal with that? Were FF2 and FF4 the same game, one in the US, one in Japan?
--
a trick up the sleeve? (Score:1)
my point is a minor one; i'm not a console architect so flame me now. I only point out that ib using linux there is a lot of room for flexibility not inherent in the PSX/Xbox.
Anyway, games are cool or not depending on how fun they are to play, not how flashy the graphics are... I remember my playstation, I had several games, including FinalFantasyVII and RidgeRacerRevolution. I got _Bored_ with FinalFantasy before finishing the first disk (after getting the airship, the sub... I got to the ruins of the ancient civilization, i didnt give up in kiddieland) because it was just walking around and fighting little battles, collecting toys... repetetive.
RidgeRacerRev only had i think something like 3 tracks, and the graphics couldn't hold a candle to FF7, but it was (for me) a helluva lot more FUN. The linux community contains a large number of people who wade into coding projects for the hell of it... if it's possible for these geeks to contribute games to the platform, damn, that's a lot of variety.
mu.
Re:Can't do that... (Score:1)
You're right, I wasn't being clear.
Sounds like a good start for a console, but not for a PC.
I'd like to see it happen, anyway. Just to see if it's a better environment. It's not like there's too much going on with Be otherwise.
Not true... they are only developed graphically.
Yeah, but they're all looking at the PC games market (which IS shrinking) and the console market (which is growing) and we're going to get screwed. Which is a shame, since the RPGs and RTS games are my favorite.
-jpowers
This post serves a purpose. (Score:1)
This a good thing... (Score:3)
I worked for a company for a very long time that is responsibility for a very well known and uqiquitous browser plug-in that actually used the browser plug-in to accomplish kind of the same thing. Before the plug-in, lot's of people used titles developed with thier authoring app but never actually new about them. Now, since the plug-in, almost everyone has heard of them. They give the plug-in away for free, and use the built-in advertising (conceptually, they don't actually display ads!) to leverage thier authoring tools. The end-result being very good, at least from a finacial standpoint.
Re:grammer? (Score:2)
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
All worries are assuaged... (Score:1)
By the mention in the article that Indrema [indrema.com] knows that Linux is under the GPL, and thus their derivitive works will also be GPL. I hope they make a few billion on this thing. Yeah, a few geeks will take advantage of the GPL to "steal" their game engine, and... produce more games for it? Somehow that doesn't sound like too much of a problem.
Hail Indrema! May they be the next Sony, and may their shareholders be infinitely happy...
All very clever, but (Score:3)
Consoles, particularly Nintendo, are targeted at people who do not want to piddle around with the petty details - tell them they need to upgrade their GPU and they will look at you with a blank moronic stare before resuming their game of frogger (or whatever, so I can't think of any cool console games
Maybe it'll go somewhere. But I doubt it.
--Remove SPAM from my address to mail me
Re:grammer? (Score:1)
This is great but... (Score:1)
Take for example Age of Empires. Granted this is pretty much a Microsoft thing but wouldn't it be cool if it was ported to Linux? Until then I'm stuck with running my pc in dual boot mode...
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
NPS Internet Solutions, LLC
www.npsis.com [npsis.com]
Main advantage of Linux for consoles: (Score:3)
Of course, quality control may be a problem. One reason Nintendo is so successful is that it earns its reputation for quality by testing, testing, and retesting all titles (even those by third parties) before allowing their release.
It would definitely be harder to do that for a more open system.
On the other hand, nothing beats putting in the cartridge, turning on the console, and seeing a stylized splash screen boldly proclaiming, "This game is distributed under the GNU General Public License. Press 'B, A, B, A, Up, Down, B, A, Left, Right, B, A, Start' for details."
Re:Not seeing the Linux / console connection (Score:3)
Get the point? There are so many different things that could happen, too. TV Cable companies now start bundling free cable-internet access with your regular TV. Free of charge(at least for now
All right?
Dave
Cool Console Games (Score:1)
[snip] they will look at you with a blank moronic stare before resuming their game of frogger (or whatever, so I can't think of any cool console games
*choke*
Legend of Zelda (all 5 so far), Metroid (all 3), Phantasy Star series, not to mention the ever-present Final Fantasy series, Contra (the original mindless console shoot-em-up), Sonic the Hedgehog series, the Super Mario Brothers series, just to name a few.
Ring any bells? And what geek planet did you grow up in? =o
Why Inderama will fail as a console. (Score:2)
1) The hardware of the Inderama is not well suited for gaming. The problem is that there is the wrong balance within the system. Instead of Sony, which took gaming and added computing features, the Inderama people are taking computing and adding gaming features. The harware seems to be a fair bit more powerful than PSX2, but not well suited for gaming. As a whole I don't think the system will work well. First of all, there is the problem of Linux. While it makes it very convinient from a general set-box view, it is stifling for gaming. Frankly, a UNIX is just too much overhead for a set-top. Every thing from a virtual file system, to memory management, to memory protection, multiple users, and a robust networking system, all take there toll on system performance, and frankly, are useless on a console. Problematically, these are ingrained features of Linux and cannot be removed without a total overhaul. Also troubling is their use of Mesa. Mesa is not known for being the fastest GL implementation around, and it is dumb to use it on a console. Then there is the question of abstraction. There need not be any on a console. (Except maybe some for the removable drives and maybe networking.) While PSX2 starts with totally writing to the metal, then adds ease of use things such as OpenGL and other libraries, Linux starts out with a very abstracted system. It may make the system easier to learn, but we've seen where this abstraction goes in real games. Some of the original dreamcast games used the DirectX APIs of the Microsoft OS (which are much higher performance than anything on Linux) but most people eventually developed their own "to the metal" engines, and neglected to OS. Game developers like being able to write close to the hardware. It allows quite a lot of innovation, like that seen the the Crash games. That's also why games continue to get better on the same hardware for 5 or 7 years. In all, these things will outweigh the massive hardware, and in the end, I doubt performance on Inderama will be more than 30% or so better. To the console market that is nothing, because N64 still lost to Playstation even though it was more than 3 or 4 times as fast. The reason is the quality of the PSX software, which brings me to my next point.
2) MS and Inderama are starting out late. As such, they will not have the software base PSX-2 will. Even though it will take time for developers to learn PSX-2, they will be up to speed by the time MS and Inderama are 6 months from shipping. A smaller software library can, and has, killed consoles in the past.
3) MS and Inderama have no clue from a user standpoint. Neither Embedded NT nor Linux are nearly stable enough to meet the expectations of console users. You think people are going to put up with patches and upgrades all the time? In the console world, it is do it perfect or don't do it at all. That brings to issue the problematic hard drives. While great for a set top box, they are relativly useless for a console, and will only encourage lazy developers to ship unfinished products with expectations to patch them later. Secondly, I almost had a heart attack when I learned that the GPU would be upgradable. Not only does this degrade performance, (developers can take advantage of every nuance of the hardware without writing general, slower code), but it will introduce headaches to console gamers. Console users expect their $200 investment to last 5 or 6 years unchanged. They will not put up with upgrading every few months.
The whole problem with the whole "PCs pretending to be consoles" is that their developers just don't get it. People don't want to put up with patches, upgrading, or the difficulties of managing a PC, even a simplified one. We're talking about people who can't program their VCRs. You expect them to be able to manage this? I'd like to see the 10,000 complaints from users who manage to fry the GPU while upgrading it, or bend one of the pins. "What do you MEAN I have to shock myself first." or "I was installing this in winter while wearing socks and walking on shag carpet. Why doesn't it work." or "I broke off one of the pins, where can I get extra?"
Re:Perhaps it's viable (Score:2)
Indrema: More problems than the X-Box (Score:2)
The Indrema console has the same COTS-design related problems that also affect the X-Box (you can see this [berkeley.edu] for my mildly paranoid discussion and speculation on the X-Box for more details on the X-Box's design problems).
The basic problem is the COTS (commercial, off the shelf) design ends up costing an extra $50-100 (in the extra memory, the hard drive, and the slightly higher cost for the CPU) more to produce then the Playstation 2 or whatever Nintendo is going to come out with, without providing significantly more capability as a game console. This is a huge handicap in the console market, where things are already sold at a loss to begin with.
Additionally, the proposal to make the GPU upgradeable defeats much of the purpose of a console: To provide a standard platform. The beauty of developing for a console is that all instances are identical, you don't need to worry about somebody having a less or more powerful machine.
However, unlike the X-Box, Indrema can't take the major economic losses Microsoft can on selling the console, in an attempt to get the platform established (and then gain revenue from the games and applications). Although annoying, Microsoft could tolerate an initial $100 loss on each console, if it allows the X-Box to become a viable platform. Indrema can not.
I suspect one of two scenarios: a) This is a company trying to get as much mileage out of the current Linux hype as possible, to get money from investors and (hopefully) an IPO, or b) these people actually believe in the snake oil they are selling, in which case someone should go to their headquarters, sit down with a calculator, and shoot down their financial projections before they cost their investors a lot of money.
Nicholas C Weaver
nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu
Re:Congratulations! (Score:1)
Re:Haiku (Score:1)
Will kick the absolute shit
Out of Indrema
Thank you
Re:Cool Console Games (Score:1)
1970's
Pong was king!
Wish I had time to still play games anymore. *sigh* I buy a game and it lasts me for a couple of years before I finish the whole thing.
Re:Cool. (Score:1)
What about M$ and nVidia? (Score:2)
Re:Why Inderama will fail as a console. (Score:1)
I think your agrument has several holes.
Every thing from a virtual file system, to memory management, to memory protection, multiple users, and a robust networking system, all take there toll on system performance, and frankly, are useless on a console.
Ha! Are you a C64 programmer? Everything you list, apart from multiple users, is a huge boon to a next generation game! A robust networking system? Have you played Q3, UT, or Everquest...? Its essential! Memory management? With only 64mb of physical memory VM its a huge plus!
While PSX2 starts with totally writing to the metal, then adds ease of use things such as OpenGL and other libraries, Linux starts out with a very abstracted system.
This is one of the primary complaints against the PSX2. It requires too much "writing to the metal". Its very difficult to program, and as a result nearly the entire first round of games (as far as the recent E3 showed) are graphically unimpressive. They are choppy and don't look much different than dreamcast games. The PSX2's biggest benefit will be backwards compatibility...
That brings to issue the problematic hard drives. While great for a set top box, they are relativly useless for a console,
Don't quote me on this but I believe, like with the X-Box, that the hard drive will be there for VM swapping... making the 64mb RAM less of a hard limit. In any case swapping to a hard drive sure beats doing custom swapping from a CD or DVD.
People don't want to put up with patches, upgrading, or the difficulties of managing a PC
There is very little in the Indrema console description that indicates that patches, hardware upgrades, or "management" will be absolutely necessary.
Patches will probably not be feasible: developers have no way of guaranteeing users will be able to get the patch. People with the console connected to the net will be in the minority, so most games will be singleplayer unpatchable, just like with the other consoles.
The upgradeable GPU at worst will look like a Sega Genesis CD32... that is a device that may not be successful or required and certainly won't detract from the basic system as it ships.
As for management? It seems to me that the system will be just like a playstation... stick the DVD in and hit the power button and wait, then play!
I think overall they do have a good plan, and the pitfalls they face will stem from NVidia providing them with fast working drivers and developers getting on the bandwagon with titles.
Oxryly
troll alert (Score:1)
Secondly, your statement "everyone around here try so dang hard not to say a bad word about it" is false. Most posts I see are pointing out problems with this console. And I agree that this thing is even less likely to succede than Micro$oft's X-Box.
So, it sure looks like you're just trolling.
___
linux kernel overkill?? (Score:1)
Not a games platform (Score:1)
fun (Score:1)
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
Cool. (Score:1)
Hopefully things will work out and we can see this baby in action.
Cheers,
Mike
They don't have to play Linux games (Score:1)
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
Re:who will dominate ? (Score:2)
Re:Not seeing the Linux / console connection (Score:2)
I believe WINE runs AoE... (Score:2)
Wanted: Killer Apps (Score:1)
In order to get a Killer App, you need clear incentives for the top-class game designers to want to work with your platform. "Open Source design" just doesn't cut it - they need incentives, whether its financial, or better yet, technological, to develop on a Linux console rather than Sony's, Nintendo's, or Sega's. Convincing the designers that an unproven console is worthy of their limited resources will be the biggest hurdle by far.
Re:They don't have to play Linux games (Score:2)
Re:What's the next stage after vapor-ware? (Score:1)
Kerberos (Score:1)
Is this very practical? (Score:1)
Is this very practical? The masses have a hard enough time adding a new hard drive to their computer - could you imagine a bunch of adolescents trying to upgrade something like a GPU?
Re:Is this very practical? (Score:1)
Not seeing the Linux / console connection (Score:2)
That said, consoles tend to be very light on the OS needs. They don't need to multitask applications. They don't need pipes. They make very little use of a filesystem other than to slurp in entire files. There's no need for a generic device driver system. They don't need virtual memory. And so on. So overall, putting Linux (or BSD or Hurd or whatever) in a console doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And even if the engineers decided "you know, if we use Linux then we could save ourselves the trouble of writing some low level stuff" then that's *not* any kind of reason to think of this as a "Linux-based console." The PlayStation 2 has a Sony-written OS kernel inside of it, but does anyone care? No, because it is irrelevant to consumers.
who will dominate ? (Score:1)
Re:They don't have to play Linux games (Score:1)
Re:This is great but... (Score:1)
Of course, they bought them off someone else. That Visio program wasn't half bad, either. Oh wait...
I concur with the port idea, though. Civ III worked out pretty well. The problem is AoE is pretty well tied into the DirectX stuff.
-jpowers