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Games Entertainment

Examination of Indrema Linux console 70

Posted by CmdrTaco from the but-it's-still-vapor dept.
James Hills writes: "Linux gaming is a hot topic today. However, many problems still plague the infant platform, such as standards and a central company to enforce those standards. Indrema, a recently formed San Francisco Bay Area-based company plans to change this with the release of the Indrema Entertainment System (IES) by next spring." We mentioned the Indrema System last March, but its nice to know some progress is being made ... it looks at least less vaporous now.
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Examination of Indrema Linux console More

Examination of Indrema Linux console

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  • The Indrema console looks very cool, but while we're waiting for it's launch in spring, here's something else to chew on: The Playstation 2 might just be able to run Linux, with a lot of ingenuity.



    The hardware is a mixed bag. At it's heart is a MIPS processor (fully supported by the kernel). The hard drive and ethernet in the US version are also pretty standard. The graphics chips are proprietary, with no documentation (doh!), but they are licensable, which could mean that if some very rich hackers (possible use for IPO money?) got together they could buy documentation for the chips and write an X-server, GL driver, etc.



    Of course, it wouldn't be easy, and I'd much rather spend $300 supporting Indrema, a company which is supporting amateur developers and open source, than Sony. Still, it's an interesting project for anyone who's interested.

  • Nope, won't work. DirectX is M$'s baby, it's the reason that PC games don't boot into their own environments anymore. It has drawbacks, of course: less resources devoted to the games themselves, not all hardware works perfectly inside it (take my ATI card...please!), any limitations of DirectX become limitations in the game you develop, and you basically need to run windows to develop for it.

    Since it's proprietary, no GPL program can ever be linked to it (see KDE), which would make running it under linux even more of a waste. Not that most games are GPL'd. Other people are trying to make similar stuff, but it never works quite right, and they don't have the finances to hire programmers for the big push it takes to finish projects of that scope.

    I've said this before on this board, but BeOS would be a great runtime environment for games. Strip it down so it takes 100MB of the HD, just for the environment and drivers, then boot into it with System Commander to play video games off the CD/main HD part.

    Not that it matters, anyway. PCs are really losing popularity as game machines: the consoles are so well developed now that they'll soon exceed PCs for all kinds of games. Add in Broadband and you won't need a $2500 game machine anymore.

    It's a real shame, I think. A lot of us got immersed in computing by pirating games on the C64. Where's the learning environment going to come from if the only game's the one they advertise?

    -jpowers

  • This is so LinuxOne-esque, it's not even funny. If there could be a funny part, though, it would have to be watching just about everyone around here try so dang hard not to say a bad word about it.

    This actually would make a classic social experiment. Go through the article and change all the Linux references to Microsoft ones (difficult, I know -- there are some parts which will probably just have to be deleted -- but a decent job could be done), then show it to your Slashdotter friends who haven't seen this article. Figure out the percentage of them that are a) rolling in the aisles with laughter, b) up in arms, screaming about monopolies, or any other choices you can come up with. If anyone goes through with this, keep us posted! :)

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • anything in consumer space is only standards complient if it uses the Win32 API

    On the x86 PC platform that may be true, but that is not what we're talking about here. Consoles (and set-top boxes, and networked `appliances' or whatever name they have tomorrow) are still OS-neutral, as long as it does the job it is OK. So now what counts is which OS does the job in a satisfying manner both for the user as well as for the designer, manufacturer and software developer. Look at Netpliance's i-Opener (QNX) for an example of a device which is totally `consumer space' oriented, yet lacks even a single bit of Win32 software. The hardware platform supports it, but it is not used, instead they chose QNX. Why? Probably for reasons of size (small), stability (good) and maybe licensing fees (no idea really). Linux can also be made small, it can be very stable in the right configuration, and licensing fees are a non-issue.

    So i'd say there Win32 (or Winwhatever) is not the de-facto API for these applications...

  • I was responding to those who were saying that using Linux gives Inderama a leg up because Linux is standard-complient (ie. Apps can be ported to it.) One of the major advantages of using off-the-shelf OSs is that apps can be ported easily and quickly. In the market of consumer apps, using Windows as a base gives you a much more "standards complient" OS in this respect than using Linux.
  • Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask is out in Japan, pushing the total up to 6.... ;)

    Well, now that Perfect Dark is out in au... /me waits for Majora, the Game Boy Advance and the new trilogy of Zelda for GB, and a Dolphin... :)
  • You sillies, the biggest and best enforcer of standards already exists.
  • And once again we thank Slashdot for a link to an article with little substance and lots of GPL/Linux-hype. End of rant.

    I can't see no real reason to use Linux in a gaming console, other than to placate Linux-uber-alles-people. Having such a generalised OS such as Linux defeats the purpose of the console, which is to be a sleak and fast machine with little overhead, dedicated to a single or only a few tasks. And Linux is also too monolithic to be of use in a console. The entire system in the PS2 for example, is smaller than a minimal Linux-install with basic commands and graphics-support. It's also optimised for running the few tasks it's designed for, even though you can run other things on it(We're currently playing around with a SETI-client for it, just for fun).

    And developing games for Linux? *Shudder* That's a goddamn nightmare, if you want it to run on as many potential systems as possible. Hell, on the private project I'm involved in, we've had less troubles porting from Irix to BeOS and Windows than with porting to Linux.
  • M$ has already bought Bungie (read the article on www.dailyradar.com), but I doubt that Halo will be the Killer App for the Xbox (which is more than 18 months away).
  • What Loki does and thinks and says and produces for the Indrema is the only real thing I care about. The Indrema is a nice machine, it looks great on specs and it caters to a lot of my beliefs in the OSS ethos, but none of that matters a damn.

    If Loki partners with these guys and says "yeah, we'll make games for it, and we'll give the SDK to make games for it a shot as well", then I'll be incredibly excited, and will be lining up outside Fry's or wherever the day these things go on sale.

    If not, then it's gonna be a bumpy ride, for sure.
  • Well... I know quite a few people that have a mod-chip installed to their PSX.
    Of course, most of them didn't solder it themselves to the board. Some stores around here (Zürich/Switzerland) will install it for a fee of around CHF 80.-- (about 60 $)

  • Hmm Linux + Games = Stupid idea. If you want games, get a windows box. If you want... umm if you want... umm.. if you want to be jealous of bill gates and use a shitty operating system get Linux!
  • THe only way a linux console can be a significant
    market force, is by focusing on the strengths that
    make linux a market force today:

    1. free, or dirt cheap to the consumer

    There needs to be an OPEN SPECIFICATION on
    "This is an L-Box". Presumably, something like "The box runs Mesa-2.0(compatible), with *hardware* support for x,y, and z. The Joystick interface will be this. The fizbobble interface
    will be this API."

    That way, those who want to buy a cheap box, can buy a box from whoever wants to make specialized cheap hardware. But otherwise, you get a jumpstart on a huge userbase, with existing "normal" linux systems.
    O course, it's real difficult to compete against subsidized hardware. But this doesnt change the truth of rule #1.

    2. zero license fees to game-makers.
    Let's face it: The only way you're going to get studios to take a gamble on this, is if you say, "Hey, want to keep ALL the software revenue?"

    If they want to pay license fees, they can already do that to Sony, Nintendo, etc.
  • That's it attack the poster even though
    what he said is still true. If one fat
    person calls another one fat does that make
    the statement less true? To many people
    play off faults because the one telling them
    isn't perfect. What's fact is fact no matter
    what the source telling you is.

    Thanks
  • Did anyone else hesitate at the very top paragraph in this article:
    Linux gaming is a hot topic today. However, many problems still plague the infant platform such as standards and a central company to enforce those standards. Indrema, a recently formed San Francisco Bay Area-based company plans to change this with the release of the Indrema Entertainment System (IES) by next spring.

    Does this really have anything to do with what Indrema is doing with their gaming system? They may perhaps enforce standards within the realm of their console, but certainly not within the realm of Linux! One of the many things that makes Linux truly beautiful is the fact that such standards as exist, exist by the choice of its users. If I wanted enforced standards I'd stick to Windows!

    Also, I get a bit ticked when people use terms such as "infant platform" -- Linux has been around much longer than Windows95 has been ('92 vs. 96), and being 100% POSIX compliant makes it semi-quasi-UNIX, which was spawned in the 70's.

    I know, I know, Linux ain't UNIX, because it doesn't share it's source code, but hey! If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck and tastes like a duck...

  • Haiku (Score:3)

    by 575 ( 195442 ) on Sunday June 18, 2000 @01:57PM (#994172) Journal
    Linux console, sealed,
    Wireless net game connection:
    Quake 3 at the pool!
  • However, many problems still plague the infant platform such as standards and a central company to enforce those standards.

    I apologise. I have clearly spent the whole of my life misunderstanding standards. Apparently, you need a central company to enforce them. I am so sorry for having thought that open standards work, and closed ones don't. Where do I sign up for re-education?

    Please, just look at which standards are used and which aren't. TCP/IP is used by quite a lot of systems. AppleTalk isn't. FTP is used a fair bit. ICQ's proprietary 'send file' doesn't seem to be very popular outside AOL. More people use Ethernet on LANs than use Myrinet (which is often faster). More VCRs use VHS than (the technologically superior) Betamax.

    What do the successful standards have in common, I wonder? Are they managed by a single company? I think not.

    A standard is only succesful if it is truly open. If it's not, why should I (or anyone else) invest time, effort and shedloads of money developing for it? What's the guarantee that the 'controller' of the standard won't change it tomorrow for competitive advantage? Ever looked at Microsoft Office file formats? They are almost always incompatible between versions.

    Succesful standards are there because they get used by lots of people. They get used by lots of people because those users believe that the standard will be stable, and that they can (if neccesary) influence development of the standard.

    If you want a gaming standard for Linux (by which I assume you really mean X), then propose one. Invite the interested parties to contribute. Encourage feedback. Keep the process open. I'll say that again: Keep the process open.

    Who do you trust for Internet standards? IETF [ietf.org] or Microsith [microsith.com]?

    .sig missing due to ethanol consumption

  • The Linux standard (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Anyone with their wits about them realizes that something marvelous is transpiring. Everywhere the signs are visible: Linux is becoming the world standard operating system for new technology. Linux is everywhere. The EE Times recently had a story how the world's most respected engineers have formed a Real Time Linux consortium to make Linux the first choice for embedded systems. Sony has embedded Linux in the new PCX2. Philips TiVo uses Linux powered set top "digial VCR" boxes. We are entering the Linux Millennium. Excitement is store for all as Linux becomes an intrinsic part of every person's life.
  • Well, maybe they plan to target their console at those who wish to do a little more with it than 'just play games'. If so, using a standards compliant operating systems for which a whole body of good, free software already exists makes a lot of sense. So using Linux (or *BSD) might not be such a bad idea...
  • The point is, the `operating system' of a console
    is usually just a thin layer of abstraction between the game and the support hardware.

    The Linux kernel, miniature and neat though it is,
    would surely be overkill in such a context.

    Besides, specialist drivers would be needed for
    whatever custom hardware is on board, and once these are written then a custom console OS is well within reach.

    Having said that, the advent of online gaming and other potential uses for consoles (eg. web browsing/email through your TV) would make a rather better case for using a Linux kernel.

    (I'm just waiting for the first `Beowulf' comment... :-) )
  • I heard that the typical way of making money off of a console is to sell it below the production costs and make money selling the SDK to games developers.

    Perhaps the opposite can also be made to work. Sell your console at a higher price than the competitors but have a bunch of cool games available for less. I mean these days the cost of a console is offset by the price of four console games! If someone offers a console that is reasonably priced but has games priced in a sensible range I will be tempted to purchase. So far my biggest gripe with consoles has been that the game offerings are mediocre in quality and outrageous in price (often twice the price of the PC port). I imagine they'll use opensource APIs for sound and graphics so the way for them to make money has to be from selling the hardware itself.

    BTW. I have less to do with games programming than my name would imply :-).

  • You have learnt enough perl to write a trivial script! Thankyou for sharing this demonstration of your skills with us. For your next trick, you might like to try turning to page 13 of 'Perl for Dummies'. For extra marks, please do it without spitting, sneezing, farting or exuding dandruff. If you are an honours candidate, you should try to locate the shower. We'll be asking you to use it later in the course.

    I know this will be painful and difficult, but please see it as your first step towards becoming a civilised human being.

    If you feel unable to move onwards at this stage in your social development, please consider going out, buying some spray cans and defacing a public building. Believe me, that takes more skill than writing trivial scripts and posting the output.

  • Ok, well lets port directX then...


    Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
    NPS Internet Solutions, LLC
    www.npsis.com [npsis.com]
  • N64 users seem quite capable of adding RAM, actually. Even if they don't know that is what they are doing. Why would upgrading the GPU have to be any more difficult?
  • Will Linux have a setup like sony entertainment? you know, the metrion. and isn't that kinda put a little more pressure having the HQ near sony entertainments temple of technology? don't worry, i don't like sony more than linux.
  • Hate to burst your modern conveniences bubble, but ppl do like to fiddle w/ shit.
  • I like this linux game initiative, but since when has having a "central company to enforce" been a trully good thing in standards? In fact, if one company controls it, isn't it an API, rather than a standard?

    Beware the closed API my children, for it is the start of Evil. We cannot let companys get us to depend upon closed APIs as "Standards" again, I think we learned our lesson on that one the hard way.

    I'll play the games, but I think the real future is in X 4.0, and all it's fun toys. Besides, the problem is not really the APIs, its the package system for games, and that's pretty much solved.
    -- Crutcher --
  • Well, maybe they plan to target their console at those who wish to do a little more with it than 'just play games'

    I know that they are. Didn't you see the part about planned dvd and mp3 support, with Tivo-ish capabilities added later on? This will be a total set-top box, not just a gaming platform.

    The best part is, if Indrema tanks, you can always use it as a not-so-thin client ;) It was built with commodity hardware and was specifically designed for Linux, so loading Slackware or Debian or whatever on it would be no big deal.

    Here's my [radiks.net] DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?

  • The Linux kernel, miniature and neat though it is, would surely be overkill in such a context

    Yes, it would. However, Indrema intends to do so much more than gaming with this. They are talking about playing DVDs, and mp3s with this. They are even planning to implement a Tivo-ish ability to pause and buffer live television. So, the Linux kernel will deffinately not just be overhead.

    Here's my [radiks.net] DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?

  • ...Final Fantasy 2(4) for the SNES...

    Sorry for the extremely off-topic post, but I have a question - a few days ago I started playing FF2 with snes9x (great game so far, BTW) I also have a ROM of FF4 which appears to be the exact same game, but badly (VERY badly) translated from Japanese. What's the deal with that? Were FF2 and FF4 the same game, one in the US, one in Japan?
    --

  • a trick up the sleeve? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    there's more to using linux than just the marginal ride you get from a modern buzzword. Suppose this thing comes out and the games aren't as graphically stunning as the PSX's, or are predisposed to being 2-D or some other failing; but for $49.95 you can plug in a box containing aditional software that turns your medicore console into oh say, a web browser/email client/ftpserver... something that linux would have an easier time doing than windows or the PSX or certainly the N64 (perhaps dolphin or the dreamcast would be easier) ... a low-income family considering buying their kids a console for christmas/chanukah/birthday would probably be swayed by this. Hell, techno-phobic yuppies might be swayed by this.

    my point is a minor one; i'm not a console architect so flame me now. I only point out that ib using linux there is a lot of room for flexibility not inherent in the PSX/Xbox.

    Anyway, games are cool or not depending on how fun they are to play, not how flashy the graphics are... I remember my playstation, I had several games, including FinalFantasyVII and RidgeRacerRevolution. I got _Bored_ with FinalFantasy before finishing the first disk (after getting the airship, the sub... I got to the ruins of the ancient civilization, i didnt give up in kiddieland) because it was just walking around and fighting little battles, collecting toys... repetetive.

    RidgeRacerRev only had i think something like 3 tracks, and the graphics couldn't hold a candle to FF7, but it was (for me) a helluva lot more FUN. The linux community contains a large number of people who wade into coding projects for the hell of it... if it's possible for these geeks to contribute games to the platform, damn, that's a lot of variety.

    mu.

  • Actually, that would be "booted into DOS". I never saw a PC game that booted into its own OS.

    You're right, I wasn't being clear.

    Sounds like a good start for a console, but not for a PC.

    I'd like to see it happen, anyway. Just to see if it's a better environment. It's not like there's too much going on with Be otherwise.

    Not true... they are only developed graphically.
    Yeah, but they're all looking at the PC games market (which IS shrinking) and the console market (which is growing) and we're going to get screwed. Which is a shame, since the RPGs and RTS games are my favorite.

    -jpowers
  • It's there to make the statistics [slashdot.org] more interesting.

  • This a good thing... (Score:3)

    by cvoid ( 13211 ) on Sunday June 18, 2000 @12:53PM (#994190) Homepage
    Because it won't neccessarily draw the general public's attention to Linux, but will serve as a step in helping to make Linux a more apparently viable platform for console gaming, and anything else for that matter. It's almost like promoting Linux in order to promote Linux if that makes sense. Get a game machine, a _good_ game machine, out into the market using Linux, let us geeks see how good it is, and let the snowball effect kick-in. Who knows. Maybe a few years from now, all the console boxes will be running Linux...

    I worked for a company for a very long time that is responsibility for a very well known and uqiquitous browser plug-in that actually used the browser plug-in to accomplish kind of the same thing. Before the plug-in, lot's of people used titles developed with thier authoring app but never actually new about them. Now, since the plug-in, almost everyone has heard of them. They give the plug-in away for free, and use the built-in advertising (conceptually, they don't actually display ads!) to leverage thier authoring tools. The end-result being very good, at least from a finacial standpoint. :)

  • Perhaps you can ask for your money back?


    - Jeff A. Campbell
    - VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])

  • By the mention in the article that Indrema [indrema.com] knows that Linux is under the GPL, and thus their derivitive works will also be GPL. I hope they make a few billion on this thing. Yeah, a few geeks will take advantage of the GPL to "steal" their game engine, and... produce more games for it? Somehow that doesn't sound like too much of a problem.

    Hail Indrema! May they be the next Sony, and may their shareholders be infinitely happy...

  • All very clever, but (Score:3)

    by seizer ( 16950 ) on Sunday June 18, 2000 @12:56PM (#994193) Homepage
    The fact remains that playstation, nintendo, and I suppose sega (yeah right) dominate the scene. Microsoft will make a big entry too, RSN, due to their marketing budget being able to push the X-box pretty well - and let's admit it, the X-box could actually be rather good.

    Consoles, particularly Nintendo, are targeted at people who do not want to piddle around with the petty details - tell them they need to upgrade their GPU and they will look at you with a blank moronic stare before resuming their game of frogger (or whatever, so I can't think of any cool console games :-)

    Maybe it'll go somewhere. But I doubt it.

    --Remove SPAM from my address to mail me
  • True. I do admit I screwed that up a bit. Oh well. Life goes on. :)
  • Ok, this is definetly great news but what I'm wondering about is more games getting ported to Linux from other platforms. I really don't think we need this new platform thing as much as we need games ported to the Linux environment.

    Take for example Age of Empires. Granted this is pretty much a Microsoft thing but wouldn't it be cool if it was ported to Linux? Until then I'm stuck with running my pc in dual boot mode...


    Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
    NPS Internet Solutions, LLC
    www.npsis.com [npsis.com]

  • Main advantage of Linux for consoles: (Score:3)

    by hypergeek ( 125182 ) on Sunday June 18, 2000 @02:34PM (#994196)
    The sheer number of creative coders for Linux is one of its greatest advantages. Make a standardized Linux console system, create a (SDL/GGI/whatever-based) standardized game API, and even coders who have never used Linux will be flocking to the platform, simply because of the ease of entry, and the ability to reach large numbers of people with their offerings.

    Of course, quality control may be a problem. One reason Nintendo is so successful is that it earns its reputation for quality by testing, testing, and retesting all titles (even those by third parties) before allowing their release.

    It would definitely be harder to do that for a more open system.

    On the other hand, nothing beats putting in the cartridge, turning on the console, and seeing a stylized splash screen boldly proclaiming, "This game is distributed under the GNU General Public License. Press 'B, A, B, A, Up, Down, B, A, Left, Right, B, A, Start' for details."

  • Re:Not seeing the Linux / console connection (Score:3)

    by dbarclay10 ( 70443 ) on Sunday June 18, 2000 @02:38PM (#994197)
    The article actually mentioned more than just games, if you didn't notice. They talked about MP3s, 50 Gigs of storage, and, what I was interested in, "video recording" :) TiVO, anyone? :) Now, all that OS cruft you mentioned(multitasking, virtual memory, etc.) are there because it makes for a more robust and versatile system. For just a second, imagine Sony goes bust. Look at all those games out there. Boy, if you could get them to play on your just-developed console, you'd have a great market available. All those people who still want to play Playstation games, but some new ones too. But, damn, you built the box too specifically - you'll have to redesign, but you're low on funds, so you don't. Just after you box's release, a competitor comes out with a console that can run their own games, as well as all those Play Station games. They whoop your ass. Had you, instead of building extremely specialized hardware and software, built a robust, extensible, and versatile system, you would have had the upper hand(or at least been on even ground).

    Get the point? There are so many different things that could happen, too. TV Cable companies now start bundling free cable-internet access with your regular TV. Free of charge(at least for now ;). You send up an update to all your consoles(transparently, using its build-in modem to dial-up a 1-800 number), and voila, a whole heck of a lot of happy customers. Happy customers mean generous, loyal customers. :)

    All right? :)

    Dave

  • [snip] they will look at you with a blank moronic stare before resuming their game of frogger (or whatever, so I can't think of any cool console games :-)

    *choke*

    Legend of Zelda (all 5 so far), Metroid (all 3), Phantasy Star series, not to mention the ever-present Final Fantasy series, Contra (the original mindless console shoot-em-up), Sonic the Hedgehog series, the Super Mario Brothers series, just to name a few.

    Ring any bells? And what geek planet did you grow up in? =o

  • I find it interesting that these Inderama people think that they can jump into the console market, and triumph over Nintendo and Sony who have been doing it for years and frankly can do it a lot beter. Without further ado, the reasons why you probably will not succeed as a gaming machine. (Though it has potential as a set-top.)

    1) The hardware of the Inderama is not well suited for gaming. The problem is that there is the wrong balance within the system. Instead of Sony, which took gaming and added computing features, the Inderama people are taking computing and adding gaming features. The harware seems to be a fair bit more powerful than PSX2, but not well suited for gaming. As a whole I don't think the system will work well. First of all, there is the problem of Linux. While it makes it very convinient from a general set-box view, it is stifling for gaming. Frankly, a UNIX is just too much overhead for a set-top. Every thing from a virtual file system, to memory management, to memory protection, multiple users, and a robust networking system, all take there toll on system performance, and frankly, are useless on a console. Problematically, these are ingrained features of Linux and cannot be removed without a total overhaul. Also troubling is their use of Mesa. Mesa is not known for being the fastest GL implementation around, and it is dumb to use it on a console. Then there is the question of abstraction. There need not be any on a console. (Except maybe some for the removable drives and maybe networking.) While PSX2 starts with totally writing to the metal, then adds ease of use things such as OpenGL and other libraries, Linux starts out with a very abstracted system. It may make the system easier to learn, but we've seen where this abstraction goes in real games. Some of the original dreamcast games used the DirectX APIs of the Microsoft OS (which are much higher performance than anything on Linux) but most people eventually developed their own "to the metal" engines, and neglected to OS. Game developers like being able to write close to the hardware. It allows quite a lot of innovation, like that seen the the Crash games. That's also why games continue to get better on the same hardware for 5 or 7 years. In all, these things will outweigh the massive hardware, and in the end, I doubt performance on Inderama will be more than 30% or so better. To the console market that is nothing, because N64 still lost to Playstation even though it was more than 3 or 4 times as fast. The reason is the quality of the PSX software, which brings me to my next point.

    2) MS and Inderama are starting out late. As such, they will not have the software base PSX-2 will. Even though it will take time for developers to learn PSX-2, they will be up to speed by the time MS and Inderama are 6 months from shipping. A smaller software library can, and has, killed consoles in the past.

    3) MS and Inderama have no clue from a user standpoint. Neither Embedded NT nor Linux are nearly stable enough to meet the expectations of console users. You think people are going to put up with patches and upgrades all the time? In the console world, it is do it perfect or don't do it at all. That brings to issue the problematic hard drives. While great for a set top box, they are relativly useless for a console, and will only encourage lazy developers to ship unfinished products with expectations to patch them later. Secondly, I almost had a heart attack when I learned that the GPU would be upgradable. Not only does this degrade performance, (developers can take advantage of every nuance of the hardware without writing general, slower code), but it will introduce headaches to console gamers. Console users expect their $200 investment to last 5 or 6 years unchanged. They will not put up with upgrading every few months.

    The whole problem with the whole "PCs pretending to be consoles" is that their developers just don't get it. People don't want to put up with patches, upgrading, or the difficulties of managing a PC, even a simplified one. We're talking about people who can't program their VCRs. You expect them to be able to manage this? I'd like to see the 10,000 complaints from users who manage to fry the GPU while upgrading it, or bend one of the pins. "What do you MEAN I have to shock myself first." or "I was installing this in winter while wearing socks and walking on shag carpet. Why doesn't it work." or "I broke off one of the pins, where can I get extra?"
  • No, that's not it. They make money by charging people to make games. If you make a program that runs on Playstation, you have to pay Sony $7 for each copy sold.

  • The Indrema console has the same COTS-design related problems that also affect the X-Box (you can see this [berkeley.edu] for my mildly paranoid discussion and speculation on the X-Box for more details on the X-Box's design problems).

    The basic problem is the COTS (commercial, off the shelf) design ends up costing an extra $50-100 (in the extra memory, the hard drive, and the slightly higher cost for the CPU) more to produce then the Playstation 2 or whatever Nintendo is going to come out with, without providing significantly more capability as a game console. This is a huge handicap in the console market, where things are already sold at a loss to begin with.

    Additionally, the proposal to make the GPU upgradeable defeats much of the purpose of a console: To provide a standard platform. The beauty of developing for a console is that all instances are identical, you don't need to worry about somebody having a less or more powerful machine.

    However, unlike the X-Box, Indrema can't take the major economic losses Microsoft can on selling the console, in an attempt to get the platform established (and then gain revenue from the games and applications). Although annoying, Microsoft could tolerate an initial $100 loss on each console, if it allows the X-Box to become a viable platform. Indrema can not.

    I suspect one of two scenarios: a) This is a company trying to get as much mileage out of the current Linux hype as possible, to get money from investors and (hopefully) an IPO, or b) these people actually believe in the snake oil they are selling, in which case someone should go to their headquarters, sit down with a calculator, and shoot down their financial projections before they cost their investors a lot of money.


    Nicholas C Weaver
    nweaver@cs.berkeley.edu

  • Your point being?

  • Re:Haiku (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The MS XBOX
    Will kick the absolute shit
    Out of Indrema

    Thank you
  • Earth,

    1970's

    Pong was king!

    Wish I had time to still play games anymore. *sigh* I buy a game and it lasts me for a couple of years before I finish the whole thing.
  • I don't see how associating linux with a console will confuse people when they see it on a desktop. I mean it's linux. It runs on many platforms. Linux can be used as a server, a workstation, and even a desktop. I use it as my primary desktop. So what's the problem with having it used as a part of a console system?
  • If these guys start looking like comtenders isn't M$ going to flex its $200M nVidia XBox contract muscle and lean on them hard?

  • I think your agrument has several holes.

    Every thing from a virtual file system, to memory management, to memory protection, multiple users, and a robust networking system, all take there toll on system performance, and frankly, are useless on a console.

    Ha! Are you a C64 programmer? Everything you list, apart from multiple users, is a huge boon to a next generation game! A robust networking system? Have you played Q3, UT, or Everquest...? Its essential! Memory management? With only 64mb of physical memory VM its a huge plus!

    While PSX2 starts with totally writing to the metal, then adds ease of use things such as OpenGL and other libraries, Linux starts out with a very abstracted system.

    This is one of the primary complaints against the PSX2. It requires too much "writing to the metal". Its very difficult to program, and as a result nearly the entire first round of games (as far as the recent E3 showed) are graphically unimpressive. They are choppy and don't look much different than dreamcast games. The PSX2's biggest benefit will be backwards compatibility...

    That brings to issue the problematic hard drives. While great for a set top box, they are relativly useless for a console,

    Don't quote me on this but I believe, like with the X-Box, that the hard drive will be there for VM swapping... making the 64mb RAM less of a hard limit. In any case swapping to a hard drive sure beats doing custom swapping from a CD or DVD.

    People don't want to put up with patches, upgrading, or the difficulties of managing a PC

    There is very little in the Indrema console description that indicates that patches, hardware upgrades, or "management" will be absolutely necessary.

    Patches will probably not be feasible: developers have no way of guaranteeing users will be able to get the patch. People with the console connected to the net will be in the minority, so most games will be singleplayer unpatchable, just like with the other consoles.

    The upgradeable GPU at worst will look like a Sega Genesis CD32... that is a device that may not be successful or required and certainly won't detract from the basic system as it ships.

    As for management? It seems to me that the system will be just like a playstation... stick the DVD in and hit the power button and wait, then play!

    I think overall they do have a good plan, and the pitfalls they face will stem from NVidia providing them with fast working drivers and developers getting on the bandwagon with titles.

    Oxryly

  • First of all, this does not look like LinuxOne. Or, I should say, it looks less vapourous than LinuxOne. Here we have a company that actually knows what it wants to produce. Whether or not it's going to succede is a different matter altogether. LinuxOne, on the other hand, was founded by a spammer, had no product and no business plan, and, to top it off, filed for IPO within the first month of its existance.

    Secondly, your statement "everyone around here try so dang hard not to say a bad word about it" is false. Most posts I see are pointing out problems with this console. And I agree that this thing is even less likely to succede than Micro$oft's X-Box.

    So, it sure looks like you're just trolling.

    ___
  • ok... I've been using linux for a while and I've also examined the os kernels for the sony/nintendo/playstation console and what's the big deal.. you have a kernel to load up the system, download the code for the game, initialize the game program, and you're playing your game you paid $30-$50 bucks for... who really gives about the kernel and if it's overkill or not.. the developers are wanting something STABLE and reliable to use... let alone it would be cool to find out if these things are networkable through a lan and who knows, if Quake is ported over mebbe turn a bunch of these into a cool cluster and run a kick ass quake server... hehhe.. that's my two cents for ya.. kat5 who needs a stinkin' phone line when I have a oc-3 pipe to play with...
  • Most consoles are designed for the sole purpose or at least the major purpose of playing games. Linux can be a good platform for playing games. However, that is not what it has been expressly designed for like most of these consoles. Linux is a great OS but that doesn't mean we should use it for everything. I really can't see these guys competing on the performance or marketing stakes with the big console companies. MS will be able to do it with X-Box as they already have an army of developers. Linux game titles are increasing but it's nothing compared to the number of MS titles. So Linux isn't a specifically designed gamne platform and it doesn't have an army of developers already behind it. As much as I would love to see this product I just don't think it will work.

  • fun (Score:1)

    by fishexe ( 168879 )
    The really fun one is when your teacher writes "grammer" on your paper. And it's actually a mistake, not just being smart.

    Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
    Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
  • The system looks really impressive. Anything that can help boost linux is good :)

    Hopefully things will work out and we can see this baby in action.

    Cheers,

    Mike

  • The idea is, this is a Cnsole system. It's not a linux computer. It plays the games Indrema makes for it, so it's fsking irrelevant what linux games are out there because the games are for the IES platform, shipped in little cartridges, not for the general linux platform. That's what a game console is. The fact that it runs Linux internally is just like TiVo running Linux. It still has its own apps on top to play the games they make for it.

    Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
    Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
  • It runs embedded NT.
  • Linux is not standards complient. In the real world, anything in consumer space is only standards complient if it uses the Win32 API. Not a troll, just the sad truth.
  • It runs several other Microsoft-brand games anyway (Total Annihilation, anyone? :)
  • For any gaming console to succeed, it needs a Killer App. What am I talking about? Legend of Zelda for the NES, Super Mario World and Final Fantasy 2(4) for the SNES, Resident Evil and FF7 for the Playstation is what I'm talking about. Games that draw consumers by the hundreds, make Quake 3 sales look like a drop in a bucket, and are reason enough to buy the console itself.

    In order to get a Killer App, you need clear incentives for the top-class game designers to want to work with your platform. "Open Source design" just doesn't cut it - they need incentives, whether its financial, or better yet, technological, to develop on a Linux console rather than Sony's, Nintendo's, or Sega's. Convincing the designers that an unproven console is worthy of their limited resources will be the biggest hurdle by far.

  • The problem is that you're wrong. Inderama doesn't make games for it just as Sony doesn't make games. Developers make games for it. Developers port apps to it. They port existing Win32 apps to it. Thus, MS has an advantage because they have an army of developers using the Windows platform.
  • If there were a central organization certifying Kerberos compliance, do you think MS would have pulld the crap they did?
  • This is something that Indrema has taken into consideration, and instead of a fixed GPU, it has an upgradeable one.

    Is this very practical? The masses have a hard enough time adding a new hard drive to their computer - could you imagine a bunch of adolescents trying to upgrade something like a GPU?

  • 1)In my experience the adolescents have an easier time doing hardware related things. 2)Remember that this isn't a computer we're talking about, and could be made much easier. Take for instance the Expansion pak on the N64: all that's involved in installing it is ripping out the old one and pluging it in. With that said, add-ons/upgrades have traditionally done horribly for consoles.
  • I don't understand the point of designing a game console with Linux in it. First, we're really just talking about the Linux kernel and a few custom drivers. Don't misinterpret "Linux" to mean "flip a switch and there I am in an xterm."

    That said, consoles tend to be very light on the OS needs. They don't need to multitask applications. They don't need pipes. They make very little use of a filesystem other than to slurp in entire files. There's no need for a generic device driver system. They don't need virtual memory. And so on. So overall, putting Linux (or BSD or Hurd or whatever) in a console doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And even if the engineers decided "you know, if we use Linux then we could save ourselves the trouble of writing some low level stuff" then that's *not* any kind of reason to think of this as a "Linux-based console." The PlayStation 2 has a Sony-written OS kernel inside of it, but does anyone care? No, because it is irrelevant to consumers.
  • it's unfortunately clear that microsoft will no doubt have a big advantage over other gaming consoles since They will be using windows for the OS.. hey before u try to flame me get my point.. windows already has thousands of games while linux has got a handful.. that means that when X-box comes out it will already have games to go with .. however this linux gaming console will be a very big advantage for linux users in general as more games will ported to our friendly li'l tux machines.. i'd juss love to see the outcome of these as .. hey who knows .. after the breakup M$ is bound to go nowhere but down..
  • Fair call. However, they still don't have many developers and who is going to buy a console that no one is developing for? Although my assumptions may have been incorrect the point still stands. There is no team of developers already working for the platform. Nor is the machine designed from the ground up for games. It may work out better but I can't see it out performing the established consoles without the backing of a heap of developers it doesn't have.

  • AoE 1 and 2 may be the best programs M$ ever sold.

    Of course, they bought them off someone else. That Visio program wasn't half bad, either. Oh wait...

    I concur with the port idea, though. Civ III worked out pretty well. The problem is AoE is pretty well tied into the DirectX stuff.

    -jpowers

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