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Games Entertainment

Ask John Gildred About Indrema And Linux Gaming 136

Posted by timothy from the blue-leds-and-promises dept.
You've been hearing about it (and hearing about it) for months -- the Linux-based gaming console in the works from a company called Indrema. Now you can ask the questions that are on your mind about it (like when it will really and truly arrive, in the hooked-up-and-running-Quake sense, say) and get answers from company founder and CEO John Gildred. (More below.)

Post below your questions for Gildred; you may want to check out previous articles here on Slashdot (#1, #2, #3, #4 (the one Hemos just posted)), as well as other recent interviews with Gildred at womengamers.com and GamesFirst and LinuxGames.com, or even the Indrema Web site, to find previous answers you'd like Gildred to qualify, clarify or expand on as well. No sense asking the obvious, after all -- but I'd sure like to know "When?", "When?!", and "When?!" I'd hoped to have pre-ordered one of these machines already, but the introduction date has been revised a few times, and always in the wrong direction. Hopefully, though, a longer wait means a cooler console.

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Ask John Gildred About Indrema And Linux Gaming More

Ask John Gildred About Indrema And Linux Gaming

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  • How good of a DVD player is this? (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What I really want to know is how good of a DVD player this thing will be. I plan on buying a new one, and a machine that can do more than play movies is appealing (I like getting more for my money). This is part of the appeal of the Sony Playstation 2. Sure it can play games, but it can also play movies. Now I want a new DVD player that can do progressive scan via component outputs -- you mention support for the 480p and 720p signals, as well as HDTV support at 1080i. I also want to be able to ouput DTS/DTS-es/Dolby 5.1/6.1, etc. to my sound system. All of this functionality is at best hinted at and at worst not mentioned at all on your website. So will all this be available?
  • TiVo doesn't build the boxes, Sony and Philips do. Sony and Philips have paid TiVo for a license to build the boxes, and you pay TiVo to use the service. So, TiVo doesn't really care what you do with the unit (bigger hard drive, network interface for your TiVo Beowulf cluster, etc.), as long as you fork over your monthly service charge. Sony and Philips on the other hand...
  • It meets the GL spec in all the areas that matters and it's a decent software implementation. It happens that what I think you're talking about is accelerated MesaGL- which is a different beast altogether. And, yes, without better acceleration support, there's not going to be a future. Thing is, there is a future- DRI is coming. For those that can't wait and have select accelerators, there's Utah-GLX.

    Workstations only for work? De facto nature of Linux? I think you might want to take those blinders off. Windows98 and W2k are "workstation" OSes as well (Well, Microsoft calls them that!) and they are used as such. That's the de facto nature of them- but yet, look at all the games for those OSes. Take all the preconcieved notions of what an OS is supposed to be used for and throw them clean out the window. And as for it being "fun" without a high-speed internet connection; you're not trying hard enough.
  • Look at all the consoles out there. Of them, which is the only one out there that will have anything resembling it? You guessed it- the X-Box. Of the console choices out there, which one is vaporware? Again, the X-Box (if it's not shipping yet, it's still vapor!). Now, if the console companies seem (and they do at that!) to be doing well for themselves without DirectX, why on this Earth would it be an issue for this machine?
  • DirectX is not a magic bullet. DirectX is not a way to make Linux popular as a platform for gaming.
  • DRI's the answer to that. You're NOT going to go through X with it. And, it seems that with the current RagePRO GLX support through Utah-GLX, that I've got a visually correct display and slightly higher frame rates in many of my games than in Windows. That's through all those layers of indirection that X presents.
  • Hey, my bad. :-) I just wanted to have that info in the question, in the (highly unlikely) even that the TiVo name didn't ring a bell with Gildred.

  • So, how "hackable" is it? (Score:5)

    by David E. Smith ( 4570 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:13AM (#756575)
    Recently, TiVo (they make one of those nifty set-top, hard-disk based recorders) announced that they don't really care if end-users crack open their units and play around (installing new hard drives, etc.)

    Give the size constraints of the Indrema, you might not be able to leave lots of empty space for future expansion. But how much hardware modification will be possible, for those inclined toward such things? Will it be possible to buy a unit with a smaller hard drive, then upgrade later with an off-the-shelf unit? (Corollary: We will be able to download OS patches, right? :)

  • Some of the advantages of a console from a game developers point of view have to do with the licensing model, and the stability of hardware.

    My understanding of your current plans indicates that you have made the licensing model more open. Game developers don't like this as the market will be flooded with low-quality games. Their games will have a hard time getting notice, and consumers will be turned off to the platform because of quality of games.

    You also plan on providing an upgrade mechanism for several components of the machine. How do you plan to do this without bringing along all of the headache game developers have on the PC platform? Compatibility is a pain. Most game developers would rather write to a slower piece of hardware that was unchanging and known, then a faster piece of hardware that was changing.

    So, without a stable hardware platfrom, and a closed licensing model, you have removed the primary reason game developers like consoles. What reason is there left to develop for your system and not a PC?

    --Tom Stanis
  • Are Loki games the only games your console will have at release? Will I be able to use mods for these games as well?

    Will this be another linux set-top box like AOL-Gateway and dozens of others that allows TV and networking?

    Can you use it as a basic linux system as well?

  • How on earth will you get enough developer support (Score:3)

    by EnglishTim ( 9662 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:23AM (#756578)
    Even though you seem to have some reasonably impressive technical specs for your machine, a console is nothing without a good lineup of games. How do you expect to be able to get enough developer support whne you've got competition from the likes of Nintendo, Sony, Sega and Microsoft? Microsoft alone will apparently be spending half a billion dollars on marketing XBox, and all the other companies have a record of making games consoles, and are well known by the public.

    For a game devloper to be able to make their money back, they need to sell a large number of units of their game, which isn't going to happen unless you've got a large user base. I just can't see how you're going to out-market the giants...

    cheers,

    Tim
  • Surely you aren't suggesting that the constant realm crashing of bnet, the lag-kill inducing level caching system, the after-thought synchronization pulse, or the perspective-warping graphics engine were the result of pitiful programmers?

    ----------------------
  • Let's not forget that Lances (exceptional pikes) don't get dropped because of errors in the data file (really sucks for Spearazons on Hell mode).
    Also, in a wonderful display of anti-software-engineering practices, there's so much duplicated code that your stats are rarely what's displayed on the character window.

    And then there's the fact that certain death conditions will leave your single-user character files open, such that they exist in the filesystem but cannot be accessed. Fortunately, Window's scandisk fixed that.

    ----------------------
  • If you read some of the links mentioned above, your question will be answered.
  • Does the Indrema console support the Amiga [amiga.com] / Tao [tao-group.com] Virtual Environment for development? I ask mainly because that would mean that any developers could be assured that their game would run on a variety of systems, and since RedHat bundles the new Amiga SDK.
  • Uhhhh.

    DirectX is an API. The API is perfectly documented. Anyone capable could implement this API on whatever platform they feel like, without MS releasing any further 'specs'.

  • How will it measure up to the X-box in terms of price & performance?

    Will third parties be releasing games for it?

    --
  • I like MesaGL right now. Esp. the pre-3.3 Mesa in Soldier of Fortune. I can see through doors and some walls ;) great help in on-line gaming... I could fix this by upgrading, but why would i?
  • What is DVI?
    is it the 1.5Gb HDTV serial interface or is it a firewire like connection?
  • I believe their business plan was drafted during the 3-week period when having Linux as a keyword in your press release meant doubling your IPO price. The actual business model was secondary. So you saw press releases like "Our new eLintRemover is poised to revolutionize the lint-removing industry. Linux MP3s warez Britney Pokemon."
  • What is Indrema's relationship with Loki? Are you planning some cooperation or something? It's kinda strang that the biggest publisher of Linux games and a console based on Linux don't have a relationship.

  • No discernable, qualitative economical difference exists between a console and a personal computer. Both consist of computer hardware and software and the marketshare of both is largely (if not entirely) a function of the available add-on titles. For each exception to this rule (the no qualitative difference rule) that exists on side of the equation, an equivalent exception exists on the other side.

    The differences between consoles and personal computers is almost entirely functional, not economical. Consoles are typically single function devices (one plays games on them) while personal computers are typically general pupose machines (one plays games, does the taxes, writes codes, etc.).

    Even this difference is fading. Consoles are quickly becoming general purpose devices. For example, Sony's PS 2 also plays movies and browses the web. We are entering the dreaded buzz word era: digital convergence.

    Consider the new PDA's such as the iPaq. These are "computer appliances" and as such are close cousins to the gaming console. But wait, they are quickly becoming general purpose machines as well.

    No developer is going to risk their ass to produce an Idrema-specific game. This would be gross financial irresponsibility;

    No developer needs to develop Indrema only games in order for Indrema to be successful. Rather, enough developers need to also support Indrema with their titles. Evidently, you have not read Gildred's other interviews linked at the top of this article. Gildred already addressed his market plan. It is the market plan of a console, not of a general purpose computer.

    Now, whether Indrema has done enough research into their target market (Linux Power Gamers) to make the venture more than a 1 in a million crap shoot is another question altogether.

    Consoles are about marketing, not technology.

    This is the first sensible thing you've said and it is quite correct. The success of Linux in the market is entirely due to grass roots marketing, not, as many people like to believe, its alleged technological superiority over Windows. Linux may or may not be superior to its competitors (it is higly likely that the grass roots marketing behind Linux is because of actual superiority, but this is not necessarily the case). In fact, whether Linux is superior or not doesn't matter. What does matter is that Linux is grabbing developer and data center mindshare at a phenomenal rate. Indrema is gambling that grass roots marketing will make for a profitable console . It will be interesting to see if Indrema's gamble pays off...

  • Wrong, consoles typically sell at a loss, profits are made from the game royalties.

    So says the conventional wisdom. Personally I disbelieve that this is always the case or even predominantly the case. Do you have any support for the conventional wisdom?

  • how much homework have you done? (Score:3)

    by brokeninside ( 34168 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @07:02AM (#756591)
    In your interview with womengamers.com you mention that your marketing strategy will not be to go head to head with the big console makers (sony/nintendo/sega/xbox) but rather to focus on the linux power gamer. Given, that commerical Linux game sales seem to be somewhat lackluster[1], what market research have you done (if any) to point that points to the linux power gamer market being large enough and lucrative enough to be worth developing a product like the Indrema?

    [1] This may be due to many Linux gamers buying the Windows version which often includes a license for the Linux version and/or Linux titles typically coming to market weeks or months after the Windows version and/or the release of multi-platform disks that get counted as "Windows" sales. AFAIK, no one has yet sought to do a serious enough analysis of the situation to say one way or the other.

  • NO! About the worst thing I can imagine is having to "pay per hour" or similar! It's just like when I had to use dialup for internet access. Every time I had played for a while I would think "Oh, no! This will get expensive!". I like to know that after I buy a game, I won't have to pay any more for it ever.
    Maybe a monthly fee for Online RPG:s or something like that, but even that is pushing it.

    /Emil
  • check out www.indrema.com and www.xbox.com.. their spec pages state that both these devices will include ethernet. read a little before asking questions.

  • Open? (Score:2)

    by Hobbex ( 41473 )

    It seems to me that the only chance that a small console company has in the fight with the two biggest and badest boys on the block is to do exactly what they will never do, and make the it a Free (as in speech) and open platform that caters to the users rather than to corporate interests and profite motives of control.

    Yet, from what I read of the audio interview transcripts the other day, you seem to be taking the opposite approach, and are going to play the same game of attempting to control and enslave the console user as they do. Certainly going out of your way to lock off the ability of hackers to tweak and change the machine is a step in that direction, and the quote that could only be interpreted as that you would not allow certain kinds of applications (Napster type) on your platform would seem to be a confirmation.

    Openess and the ability to run those incredibly popular applications that Microsoft and Sony, being in bed with the "intellectual property" maffia, will never allow on their closed platforms would be fantastic. A machine that is not only a console, but that works for the users and not against them (like the MS and Sony machines will in many ways) could be something major, while another attempt to build a PC with Freedom and Openess removed is doomed to soon be forgotten.

    Which road are you taking, and if you truly intend to criple your machine and it's users to suit the desires of the music and movie industries, how do you defend that to us as potential customers?

  • Now, if the console companies seem (and they do at that!) to be doing well for themselves without DirectX, why on this Earth would it be an issue for this machine?

    Errrrrr .... because they are consoles? Do you not think that this is just a tiny bit different from PC gaming?

    Who mentioned PC gaming? The Indrema is a console.

    Particularly when they know that the target market of this console is notorious for its desire to pick up all of its software, DVDs and music without paying for it?

    Have you taken a look at any of the links above? The target market is the same as that of the other consoles. It's not being marketed for free software advocates. Even if it were, free software is about freedom, not price. I'd rather pay for open software than get closed software for free.

    Face it, unless Linux has suddenly developed drivers for a whole load of modern graphics accelerator cards through some form of magic

    Sorry, no. This isn't a PC we are talking about here. It's a console. That means that it needs support for only a couple of graphics accelerators - and the Indrema folks get to pick which ones.

    Why the hell can't the "community" just bite on the bullet and produce DirectX support?

    http://www.winehq.com [winehq.com]

  • ...so now I want to make a cool game for my open source console. I don't care about marketing or whatnot, I just want to code something for the console. Can I do this without going bankrupt?

    From the Indrema FAQ:

    Q: Can a developer release freeware for IES?
    A: Yes, there will be an Indrema Certification program for freeware. Freeware certification will not require a per unit certification fee.

  • Don't be fooled by the techonology here. What this thing depends on is the willingness of people to develop for it, and that is determined by the market realities, not the technology. No developer is going to risk their ass to produce an Idrema-specific game.

    I remember people saying the same thing about the Playstation. "Sony? Making a console? But nobody's going to risk developing for Sony when they can just develop for the already-proven Sega and Nintendo...". OK, Sony had more money. But the Indrema has the advantage of open, already proven APIs, like OpenGL. There is already a ton of developers out there with experience with these resources, and the barrier to entry is a hell of a lot lower, since you don't have to shell out just to develop.

    So, Idrema consoles will, for the most part, be running games that were developed for the wider PC market, and which happen to also run on Idrema. In other words, economically, it's a PC that you can't do much with, not a console.

    I was making the distinction between a PC and a console primarily because of the silly idea that supporting diverse hardware would be critical to their success. This is true for a gaming OS for PCs, but not for a console. As far as being "a PC that you can't do much with", have you taken a look at the specs for every major console lately? They're all like that. Sure, Sega has Sonic, and Nintendo has Mario, but they also have "PC" games (not sure I see a big difference myself). The FAQ says they will have ~30 titles at launch, which isn't bad. Plus, you have to remember that this is more than just a gaming machine. Things like DVD playing and web surfing.

    I'd rather pay for open software than get closed software for free.

    This is silly; you clearly don't mean what you're saying here.

    Please don't tell me what I mean.

    In order for the software to be "open", you have to have the option of getting it for free. So why would you pay for it?

    I'm saying I value open software more than closed software. I'm saying that I'll pay more for something of higher value. Neither of these points change just because open software is usually available at no cost.

    And, knowing this, why would any games developer make the software open in the first place.

    I'm not saying they should. But if you want a reason, then how about a simple observation. Virtually all games fit into a small number of categories, and the main thing that makes them different to one another is the levels, artwork, and things like that. The content. The engines themselves aren't that important, as long as they do their job (would you buy a game with awful content just because the engine was good?). It would make sense to have a few open engines that could be shared and improved by the various companies that make games using those engines. The cost for developing those engines would be shared across multiple companies, at the price of competition.

    Even Eric Raymond knows that the Open Source model isn't appropriate for games until they've passed the end of their commercial life.

    Wow! Even Eric Raymond knows it? I'll have to change my opinion accordingly, then. </sarcasm>

  • What is your attitude on hackers tearing apart an affordable system to add new functionality and features? Will your company encourage hacking of your game consoles to add functionality, or will you fire off Cease and Desist letters?

    When, not if, your cool new console gets hackish add-ons, what would be the coolest features you would like to see? Will you incorporate the best hacks into new games for those who have them? Will you come out with non-game features or applications for those who want to re-use their hardware for other things like controlling robots or network [slashdot.org] management [unm.edu]?

    the AC
  • HOWEVER, Linux is missing (or semi-missing) several pieces to make it an excellent gaming platform: easy to install/configure high-end graphics and, of course, DVD.

    Why do you need to configure on your gaming platform? What is there to install? As for configuration, anything they may need to let you configure they can give you a nice simple menu for. My grandmother just bought a TiVo (which also runs linux) and had it set up and working in half an hour! This coming from someone who doesn't understand a thing about her computer. I would hope a gaming console would abstract 99.9% of what's underneath the hood from the user in the same way.

    As for high-end graphics, from what I've seen it does high end graphics just as well as Windows, but I'm no expert, so I'll just avoid this one... :-)

    And last, DVD. Linux can read from DVD's and can even play the video from them, the only problem right now is getting around CSS (their encryption/scrambling system) Other than that DVD's are just a huge CD, and manufacturers have been putting games on CD's for years. This should be no different

  • Competition (Score:5)

    by Drath ( 50447 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:43AM (#756600)
    At a recent Xbox technical presentation that was held at my school (Purdue) a Microsoft representative said their chief completion was Sony and to a lesser extent Nintendo. When asked about the Indrema he merely laughed pointing out that he thought the project would never get off the ground with out $2bil pumped into it (ie. Xbox..). Which raises the question, Your company is definitely the underdog in shear resources how do you plan to compete commercially with the likes of Microsoft and Sony?

  • Is Linux the primary angle? (Score:5)

    by Junks Jerzey ( 54586 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @07:01AM (#756601)
    Is Linux really your primary angle or is that simply what Linux zealots are reading into it? I ask because OS choice is not even in the top ten reasons why someone would pick one game console over another, yet every article about Indrema fixates on Linux being the focus of the console.
  • But OpenGL in Quake III Arena still rocks anything Direct3D puts out. And yes, John "Fucking" Carmack is a god. :)

    To make this slightly on-topic: if nothing else, this gaming console will make Linux as a consumer platform seem more viable. There are already binaries for both Quake III Arena and Unreal Tournament, in addition to many other games.

  • How are you going to stay alive (Score:4)

    by UnknownSoldier ( 67820 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @06:34AM (#756603)
    With PS2 (Sony), X-BOX (MS), and the GameCube (Nintendo) out or coming out next year, how are you going to compete againt the "big boys" ?

    It's a known fact that consoles (hardware) sells for a loss, and make it up on licensing the games (software). What game developers do you have lined up?

    As a game programmer I'd be interested in getting a dev kit. The registration page doesn't have any info on price, or hardware specs. Could you give us any of those?

    Thx
  • Are you guys NUTS? Do you really think that you have even a snowball's chance in Hell of selling even a *few* of these things in a market which Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, and Sega are determined to dominate?

    Indrema is Doomed with a capital 'D'. A Linux-based console isn't a bad idea, but without MAJOR funding, a new console can never, ever take off. It's all about marketing.
  • Sega, Sony, and Nintendo all have entrenched markets in the console industry. While it isn't impossible to break into the market, what strategy do you have for competing with these three titans? What is it about Indrema that sets it apart from the rest of the crowd?

    A related question: key to the success of any platform is developer support. What developers have pledged to code for the Indrema system? At the projected release date, how many games will there be, and what kind of games are you going after?
  • Console sales are largely dictated by the quality and quantity of game titles available. Today there are far more technically superior platforms than the Sony Playstation, yet the quantity and (mostly) excellent quality of the titles available keep this outdated hardware selling.

    I believe an open console is a fantastic idea (from a developers p.o.v) but am interested to hear how Indrema intend to control the quality of titles available for your platform. I ask because most console gamers are consumers rather than coders.

    Will Indrema offer some kind of official licensed product scheme? Will Indrema be developing their own games in-house or with third party developers? Are you expecting to 'license' independently developed games of sufficient quality?
  • Theoretically, this would not be an issue with a console anyway. You won't even be able to access a shell without hacking, nevermind rebuild your kernel.

    Everyone keeps discussing this box in terms of install and configuration -- it's a CONSOLE, don't worry about it.

  • Developers lined up? (Score:5)

    by AugstWest ( 79042 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:14AM (#756608)
    Probably the main thing that has kept the current crop of video game manufacturers alive over the years has been their ability to sign key game developers along the way.

    What kinds of alliances have you been striking with game development companies, or are you planning on relying on the normal development of PC games for Linux?

  • ...Linux is missing (or semi-missing) several pieces to make it an excellent gaming platform: easy to install/configure high-end graphics


    Well, I guess that the little `Use 3D Acceleration' checkbox wasn't there when I installed SuSE 6.4, on several different machines with different graphics cards, in the past week. And booting from the CD was _really_ tough too (/sarcasm)

    I'd assume that the other major distro's are up to that standard of easy to install/configure now, if not then better.

    Btw, IANASE (I Am Not A SuSE Employee)
  • One thing that I've noticed in the past about consoles is that they have traditionally required much more efficient coding, because the programmers are dealing with a very limited amount of memory. While systems like the X-Box might change this a bit, I think that consoles will still have this limitation to a degree. Since I'm sure the same will be true for a Linux based console, do you think that the code developed in the making of a console system could someday lead us to a more efficient, less bloated GUI for Linux that would replace X?
  • Actually, Open Source doesn't mean you can't make money selling it. Witness Red Hat; a company that has taken an Open Source product, wrapped it up in a way that the average person can use, and made money selling it. You would conceivably get the same effect with open source games; sure, most "hard-core" Linux users who grab this thing will scour the net, compile our own binaries, and not pay a cent. However, if this truly catches on in the console market, then you're going to have a whole-bunch of Nintendo kiddies who have no clue or desire to compile and configure their own games. They'll buy the nicely wrapped versions provided at market.
  • Well, they could always say to the developers "Hey, we've got this great distribution method in place already that'll triple the number of people who buy your game. Don't waste your time coming up with your own distribution scheme, just let us handle it and we'll split the profits on every game sold". That'd be one way to get revenues on each title sold, provided enough developers opt in on it. Of course, they're not going to make nearly as much as Sony, who can force every developer to pay regardless, but they may be able to at least turn a profit. I'd be interested in hearing what Indrema actually intends, though, of course :)
  • Of course, all of those other consoles out there also have developers who are willing to make games for their proprietary formats. It's going to be hard to sell a console that requires targetted development of games; given how little Linux gaming support there is currently. This is an issue with Linux as a whole, though, not just the console.
  • Definitely a question that needs answering, considering the "normal development of PC games for Linux" has been, at best, horrendously slow.

  • Betamax vs. VHS (Score:5)

    by nezroy ( 84641 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @06:04AM (#756615) Homepage
    You're not really counting solely on superior hardware to make this thing work, are you? This kind of bet has failed so many times in the past it would be hard to ennumerate them all here. Obviously you're going to have to grab enough of a user-base that developers are going to jump at the chance to support your console. So what is the killer feature that will be so irresistible to gamers and developers alike that we're going to take a chance on an unknown console instead of putting our money down on a tried-and-true PlayStation 2?
  • You can get cigaretta lighter adapters from any travel store, that work with anything that has a plug. Extremely useful for a laptop, altho I'm not sure why you'd want a non portable videogame system and a tv in your car.
  • My biggest gripe about consoles, and the reason that I do not own one, is that when you buy a game for one that is all you get. Many PC games have huge modding communities with independantly-created models, characters, and even add-on games--not to mention the mods. To what extent will the Indrema support mods for those few games with Linux support, if at all?
  • No, open source doesn't mean you can't make money selling it. But what it does mean is that you can't charge a software tax on sales of software made by third parties. Sony makes money on every single PlayStation game sold, by every single publisher. That model won't work here. So, question is, how do they make money?
  • So they go into the software distribution business as well. Well, that's one possibility, but if you're going to make that argument, then you might as well say they go into any other kind of business you like (used-car sales, whatever) and use the profits to prop up the console business.

    Whichever way you slice it, they are shutting themselves off from the primary revenue stream that Sony et al. have, and they don't seem to have any alternatives that aren't also open to those companies. So, I'll say it again: why do they think they'll be able to make money?

  • How are you planning to break even? The traditional console business model is to sell the console itself at a loss, and make money in the form of a 'tax' on the software. With a truly open system, this won't be possible. Unless I've missed something, that leaves you with a profit margin on the console itself as your source of revenue - but to turn a profit on the console would mean charging far more for it than your competitors will charge for their machines.
  • I wonder if the games will work on both the console and my linux box? Linux in general still needs a lot more games. One of the main reasons why I still keep my Windoze98 partition around is exclusively for games. The day I can play Starcraft, AoE2 and Tiberian Sun on my Linux box is the day Windoze leaves my life forever.
  • $2bil seems like an enormously large amount of money. Which makes me wonder sometimes if the good folks at microsoft are on crack.

    I assume they'll spend 500 mil on advertising since that's what they spent on advertising windows 98.

    A lot of money will be spent on subsidising the boxes since they said they would do that.

    Some of the money goes to pay programmers to make the OS boot faster and to create the windowing system.

    But really how expensive should it be to create a gaming box out of off the shelf hardware. The only hardware they really have to design is the case.

    The rest of the money goes to pay people to create games? I thought that game manufactures had to pay MicroSoft.

    If I had 2 billion dollars...

  • you aren't allowed to unecrypt (watch) dvd without an approved dvd player.

    it has to be approved by the dvd consortium and not by the person who owns the copyright to the content.

    because the dvd consortium owns your soul.

    except in germany where it is perfectly legal to do watch your dvd's how ever you please. that's where the livid progect is hosted. (the project that uses decss to view movies under linux and started this whole mess).

    linuxvideo.org
  • In the past the price of games consoles has been heavily subsidised by the revenues from selling the games that run on the hardware (havn't they?). Do you think that with Indrema you'll be able to price the hardware competitively without people buying your hardware as a cheap-PC and not buying your games and software? Or perhaps will the Indrema hardware be more expensive (compared to PS2, DC etc) but benefit from having more cheap (or free!) games available?
  • Will anyone be able to download code compiled on a PC based host to a normal L600 for testing, or will special development kits be necessary?

    To what extent will Java be supported?

    Will patches have to be certified individually?
  • I understand that Indreama plans to license developer kits for a significantly smaller $ amount than say, Sega. Also, Indreama plans to make money by "certifying" games and apparently Indreama plans to sell those games through an online service (i.e. your website).

    Could you please expand upon the notion of "certified" and uncertified games, what the system will and will not play, and the open sourcing of your internal API's used for game development (the ones contained on the developer kits) which apparently will be closed source?

  • and I want to make a game. So I go out and learn c, I learn a little graphics theory, so now I want to make a cool game for my open source console. I don't care about marketing or whatnot, I just want to code something for the console. Can I do this without going bankrupt?
    --
    Peace,
    Lord Omlette
    ICQ# 77863057
  • I grant you, until he says _which_ 30 games, it's still vapour. But if only 1 new game is written specifically for the Indrema and is a success, they'll get a hit. For instance, Sonic was a killer app in the console world, not for advertising but bcos it was good and original - get something like that and you're away. In the early 90's, Doom was a killer app for PCs - there wasn't anything like it around, consoles were all ancient and looked shite, and as a bonus you could do work on PCs too, so kiddies could persuade their parents that they wanted them for that. :-)

    Consoles aren't just about marketing, they're about quality too. If there's better games available on another console, all the marketing in the world won't save you. Their approach may actually work in that they're going out and saying, "OK, we're not going to waste our money telling you how good we are, we're going to _show_ you", which has a certain element of originality after the media max-out of Sony, etc. Of course, they're only as good as their games, so they'd better be pretty damn hot! Consoles are largely aimed at kids, and kids have just about THE best network around cos they're all into the "who's got the best" thing.

    I don't actually remember Indrema saying that their games were going to be open-source - all they say is that the specs of their machine are open so anyone can develop for it, as opposed to Sony, Nintendo, etc who charge $$$ for licensing. And it makes the field open to hardware hackers and add-on merchants, who can add all sorts of custome goodies to it.

    Grab.
  • Go on, I'll bite. I'm skimming this thread. What's DAEHTHIS?
  • I was listening to the LUG address and most of my questions were answered. The one question that I can't seem to get answered is with all the open sourced pieces of the indrema will you not be opposed to someone going along and designing maybe not an emulator but a gaming shell or even os for linux and then distributing it freely?

    The other question I have would be ... do you plan on having someone scream Indrema in your commercials ... because I can be that guy :-)

  • The biggest complaint I've heard from game companies about linux users is that they don't want to pay for games... that they want the games to be open source.

    Does that even apply to a console system as a problem? Since it may not be targetted at linux users per se. Are you afraid of increased piracy?

    Can the proposed games for the console system be used on a regular linux system? ...or will you do something dastardly/proprietary to thwart that?
  • Crashes every hour? Linux-N, Windows-N, Mac-Y

    --
    It's a .88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
  • For those with intelligence deficit disorder, I'd like to point out that "performance" refers to CPU load, not memory footprint.

    I'd love to argue the deep point with you, but you're struggling with the shallowest of the concepts that would come up.

    --
    It's a .88 magnum -- it goes through schools.

  • Most of the gaming industry claims that the best games come from small, independent, 'garage-type' developing teams with little money.

    That comment is 5 years out of date. The games industry has been moaning for the last 5 years about the good old days when the best games came from small, independent dev teams. But it can't happen now, not unless your idea of "the best games" means "Tetris clones". The small independent developers now are running multi-million-dollar budgets, to deal with the complexity and the mass of content that's required to compete in today's market.

    --
    It's a .88 magnum -- it goes through schools.

  • Why did you choose Linux as the operating system for this console? Linux is best known as a robust, multi-tasking, multi-user host, while games are single-user, single-tasking applications. Won't the games suffer an unecessary performance hit due to Linux's paging and protection mechanisms, or do you disable these and have a "streamlined" Linux which does only what it absolutely necessary?

    --
    It's a .88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
  • You obviously haven't read the DirectX documentation. Or, indeed, any Microsoft documentation, if you can use the word "perfect" in this context.

    --
    It's a .88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
  • PS2 and GameCube are going to do just fine without DirectX sapping 5%-10% (less MS-friendly estimates go up to 25%) of their performance. I'm sure this console will too.

    --
    It's a .88 magnum -- it goes through schools.
  • what companies are goning to write games for it
  • Funny, but there are still Linux boxes out there running continuously using 2.0.x. And as for security holes, well NT has Linux beaten on that score and I won't even talk about Win9x vulnerabilities. What distro are you using that keeps bombing out on you like that? Sounds suspiciously like Corel 1.0 to me, maybe you should try SuSE or Mandrake, which are both well set up and have tons of stuff with them. You don't need a high-speed internet connection either, unless you mess about with a lot of relatively new software, as most of the stuff appears on coverdisks a month or 2 later or can be ordered from cheapbytes for a few dollars.
  • You've found out why RedHat are known as the Microsoft of Linux, although Corel had a good go with their distro. I'd recommend giving up on it and installing Mandrake 7.1, given that the Mandrake staff seem to test their stuff properly before releasing it.
  • X isn't a GUI. X is a method of drawing stuff.
    • X + Motif = GUI
    • X + (GTK+) = GUI
    • X + Qt = GUI
    • X = method of drawing stuff.

    X basically takes very simple drawing commands and executes them. It also takes input from a variety of devices and sends messages back to the client applications telling them that the mouse clicked or a key was pressed. Beyond that, it does nothing.

    A replacement for X would need to be a simple API that can change the backend for local/network support - when an app is run on the same machine as the server, it would run using the "local" API version, but when it was run across a network link (ie, SSH) it would instead use a network protocol. Nicely enough, that would require additional forwarding code in SSH, so...

    Besides, XFree86 4.0 is finally starting to become a less bloated X server in that they've finally separated the server portions from the display portions - the display drivers are now modular; before they were tied into the X server at compile time, not run time. This is good, because it means that something that replaces XFree86 4 could use XFree86 4 driver modules.

  • In the early days of Windows, DOS was still dominant, and since in DOS you could do all sorts of fancy hardware tricks by ignoring the OS such as it was, many games were developed for DOS.

    Windows had some games, but they weren't as powerful or as fun as DOS games. But they were slightly easier to write, since they didn't need sound drivers and graphics drivers to be written for the game itself.

    Then came Windows 95. Windows 95's APIs were slightly faster than Windows 3.1, and Window-based games were possible. But DOS games still ruled.

    MS wasn't stupid - they knew that ease of access to hardware is what made DOS the OS of choice for games. So they did the intelligent thing - they made it possible to access the hardware through an abstraction layer, called DirectX. The first real DirectX games were made based on DirectX 3 (what's it with MS and getting things right the third version?).

    Since then, this "Direct X" beast has been what allowed people to make video games that run on a vast number of hardware.

    Consoles skip that problem handily. All the hardware is the same, always! (Well, sorta. Sony added some new stuff when they created the Dual Shock. But it became standardized because - well, Sony did it first and marketed it, and since they made the console....)

    Because the hardware is known on a console, you can use assembly and write really fast routines for the hardware. You don't need to rely on abstraction layers that know which registers exist on the GPU for this card and what to do to access the DSP for the sound card. It's all known.

    That being said, you really don't need much of a kernel for your OS. (Besides, a RR scheduler on a gaming machine? Ugh.) All you need to provide are services to access the media, services to use the network (if provided), and that's basically it. You probably don't want to make hardware drivers in the OS - let people optimize their game for the single set of hardware. That's what "next generation" games do - the first generation of games are trying out a console, as time goes on, people learn how to use the hardware in the best possible way for what they wish to do.

    The bottom line is that Windows got game because it was easier to access computer hardware to write fast games on it. When it got > 75% of the market share, it became a sure-thing to write for. Macs aren't a real target platform because of the small market. Same for Linux.

    Consoles have the same market share problem, to a degree. Once a console's hardware is a restriction on the games, developers will be more likely to move to a newer console simply to take advantage of the newer, nicer hardware. Hardware is a factor, market penetration is more. Accessing the hardware is the biggest hurdle using an OS, and Windows would be the worst if it wasn't for DirectX providing a standard way to do it.

  • Sound like this thing might be costly to produce. Traditionally, console manufacturers have a high initial price when demand is high and have high margins which makes them most of their money. Then, once demand slacks off a bit, they start lowering the price to what is a much smaller margin.

    So, the question is, how far can you lower the price once the "early adopters" buy your console. I see the Dreamcast selling for 149.99 on amazon.com. I think the Indrema potentially has more features that justify a higher price, but how low can you go?

    I think everyone here wants you to make a healthy profit, if you are truly creating a good machine that does 95% of what you say it will do, but a game is not as fun unless you can share it with others and I want my non linux-nut friends to be able to buy these boxes a year from now at a cheaper price.
  • The licensing / certification business model that you are operating under is a sound one. I heard somewhere that 50% (or some astronomical number) of sonys income is from Playstation game licensing. However, it requires a critical mass installed base to work. How do you plan to get that installed base when Sony and Nintendo own the market?

    Pulling lots of geek features into a box is cool, but that doesn't really speak to the average pre-teen gamer. What about the box is going to make kids ask for one for x-mas?

    Do you have a Killer Game or app unique to your box that's going make it a must-have (for non-geeks)?
  • Hell yeah, make the games free to download and open source. Make the games networkable. Charge a micropayment for access to a gaming server. Users won't mind paying a couple of bucks if the game is really good, particularly if it was free to download.

    Me personally I'd much rather shell out a couple of bucks a month to a game network server than shell out $60 (or whatever) for a game "package" in a store. I want my money to go to the developers of the software, not the store that sells it, or the distributors that distribute it, or the publishers that publish it.

    Let the developers make some web sites where I can rent access to their game service. Like an ASP for games, except the idea doesn't suck, and it's cheap, and the developer gets to make some dough.

    --

  • open code? (Score:4)

    by photozz ( 168291 ) <photozz@nospaM.gmail.com> on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:02AM (#756646) Homepage
    Being that Linux is primarily an open source OS, are there any plans to release the code for the console and games?

  • Will you shun emulators of the console, such as 'Bleem!'??

    Most of the gaming industry claims that the best games come from small, independent, 'garage-type' developing teams with little money. Are you going to encourage this type of company to produce games for your console? Will you help them market their games?


    -- "Microsoft can never die! They make the best damn joysticks around!"

  • Online Gaming (Score:3)

    by FortKnox ( 169099 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:40AM (#756650) Homepage Journal
    The X-Box, PS2, Dreamcase have all mentioned having a 56k Modem. The N-Cube claims to have an ethernet port for those with broadband. What kind of online capabilities will this machine have? Seeing as how quickly broadband is growing, I'd like to heavily encourage having an ethernet port :-)
    Keep in mind, that online gaming is the future...


    -- "Microsoft can never die! They make the best damn joysticks around!"
  • Alright, this is te question that nobody wants to face up to, but it's going to have to be answered if Linux gaming is ever going to be more than an in-principle-you-can phenomenon:

    What are you going to do about the lack of DirectX support?

  • Don't be fooled by the techonology here. What this thing depends on is the willingness of people to develop for it, and that is determined by the market realities, not the technology. No developer is going to risk their ass to produce an Idrema-specific game. This would be gross financial irresponsibility; at the moment, it's vapourware and Idrema simply doesn't have the financial resources to invest in marketing and promotion for the consoles, let alone to cross-promote any software (check out Sony and Sega's market capitalisation to see how big a league this is). So, Idrema consoles will, for the most part, be running games that were developed for the wider PC market, and which happen to also run on Idrema. In other words, economically, it's a PC that you can't do much with, not a console. You can't just wake up in the morning and announce you're in the console market and expect anyone to take you seriously, unless you've got the resources of a Microsoft behind you.

    I'd rather pay for open software than get closed software for free.

    This is silly; you clearly don't mean what you're saying here. In order for the software to be "open", you have to have the option of getting it for free. So why would you pay for it? And, knowing this, why would any games developer make the software open in the first place. Even Eric Raymond knows that the Open Source model isn't appropriate for games until they've passed the end of their commercial life.

    Consoles are about marketing, not technology. Don't bring your server mentality to the mass market and expect anything other than a sound ass-whipping.

  • From the FAQ on their site:

    Q: Exactly what parts of IES are Open Source?
    A: Much of the driver level code, API implementations and all kernel code is Open Source. The only exceptions are components of drivers, which must be preserved in a binary library file for security or copy protection integrity and the Xtrema API implementation. Some application components such as the Gecko HTML rendering engine and Necko transport engine are also Open Source. Many application components of the IES, such as the personal video system, will not be Open Source.

  • I know it's fun to think of this as a David vs Goliath situation, in this case Linux gamers with an inferiority complex (as far as gaming goes, anyway) vs big bad Microsoft, Sony, Sega and Nintendo.

    But, therein lies the problem. A little company, with a tiny budget, is barely going to be a blip on the radar to those companies. Their customer base? Inconsequential. The only people who will likely buy this system are people that run Linux already. Developers realise this, so why bother wasting resources on a platform that will generate no returns for them? People like Linux because it's free and open. Do you think the games will be free -or- open? Maybe, just maybe, an established developer will decide it's a cool idea, but even then, do you suppose the publisher will push a free/open game?

    Anyone who already owns consoles won't waste their money, since they KNOW the Playstation 2 or Dreamcast (and even the DC is in rough waters) will get the games they want to play, and anyone wanting computer games get Win98 PC's with the NVIDIAs or the 3DFXs, because they KNOW the games they want to play will come out for their systems.

    Let's face it, developers and/or publishers are already weary of releasing anything for the current Linux gamers, and being that it's doubtful 100% of those gamers will buy the Indrema, why would anyone think that it might be worthwhile releasing games to a fraction of a market the gaming industry doesn't care about already?
  • yeah, while everyone else is playing Final Fantasy X and Metal Gear Solid 2 and Halo, little Johnny who's dad is a Linux sysadmin will be playing xbill and xminesweeper for free on his Indrema console!!! He'll be the envy of every kid!!!
  • Your arguments are mostly true.. But you neglect to acknowledge the importance of marketing to developers. If you convince enough developers that your machine is going to be a huge hit you can get enough of them onboard that statistically at least some of them should make a great game or two. So your machine becomes a hit, fulfilling its own prophecy.

    Sonic is somewhat of a bad example to use (as you did) because it was produced by an in-house Sega team. Indrema has no in-house games team that I know of, so they need somebody outside to create the killer game app.

    Who is writing games for Indrema now? Micrsoft (and this mirrors the PS2 and Dreamcast before it) has a slew of 3rd party developers hard at work producing enough games that at X-Box launch the system will seem attactive enough for gamers to buy. Is anyone (other than perhaps Loki -- haven't heard much about their involvement either way?) even working on titles for the Indrema yet? If not, they are already doomed.

  • Re:Two questions.... (Score:3)

    by g_mcbay ( 201099 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @10:06AM (#756673)
    They've said repeatedly that you won't be able to get a command line on the Indrema...They sort of expect someone to eventually hack in, but as shipped they intend it to be "locked down".

    All in all, I was originally excited about this project but more and more ..what with content controls, etc, etc... it sounds like 'Just Another Console' (but from a company that can't afford $5 billion on the marketing push).

    Oh well.

  • How much hardware support will you contribute to? What I mean is, I have a Microsoft force-feedback joystick. Will I be able to use it with your unit? How about other force feedback devices from other manufacturers? Many of these devices are USB; USB is just starting to gain ground with Linux. What effort will you be putting in to help support such devices.
  • Will it support AC3 so I can hook up my stereo?
    Will it support DVI so I can hook a digital monitor or digital projector?
    And, of course will it let me play my DVD's?

  • Two questions.... (Score:4)

    by shutdown -h now ( 206495 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:13AM (#756677)
    My first question is about possible connectivity of the indrema to an existing linux box. Will there be a way to interface to the box to an existing linux box to increase the storage capacity, ala exporting a drive off to the indrema using kerberos or nfs? How about firing up a terminal on the indrema?

    The second question is obvious...the web site made no mention of an existing linux box being capable of running the indrema software. Will existing linux boxen with proper hardware reqs be able to play these games?
    ^D
    &ltEOT&gt

  • The question is: Are you insane? (Score:3)

    by flatpack ( 212454 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:19AM (#756678)

    Okay, so maybe that's a bit harsh, but it seems like you're risking a lot of money on a product which will give only minimal returns. Linux is simply not viable as a gaming platform at the moment, and indeed for the forseeable future. Like it or loathe it, DirectX support would go a long way to making Linux more popular with the kind of trigger-happy moron who enjoys playing Quake.

    And then there's the fact that within a week of launch some hacker spouting Stallmanist rhetoric will have hacked into the box and posted instructions on how to do so onto the net for all and sundry to read. Hell, Taco'll probably help them out by posting a story on /. about it.

    So my question is, where exactly is the market for this box and how will you generate a profit? It all seems like a pipe-dream to me.

  • I remember when you could play a 3d game without the need for an external 3d graphics card on a 486 and get by (I have the game in question on CD). I am wondering with the use of consoles based on linux are we ever going to see the really, really efficient games.

    Also I have interest in the quality of the games in question. Most of the open source games have very little plot and in fact seem to be knock offs of really old (and quite frankly not that fun) games from the 80's and earlier. What would be nice is to see something with a Final Fantasy level of story and in depth plot to work with.
  • ...unless you count game servers, for which Linux is a significant factor. The truth is, until an OpenGL package significantly better than MesaGL gets released, there's gonna be no future for playing games on Linux. Also, remember that Linux desktops usually exist as workstations - where you actually hunker down to Emacs or a Java compiler or whatnot and get some work done. There still isn't much of a market for standalone Linux machines; Linux isn't even that fun to operate without a >20K/sec connection to the Internet or a 10/100 LAN. Where do you submit core dumps? How do you start a game server? What's the use of ftpd or httpd without a connection?

    That's why I feel that Linux gaming will go nowhere; because it goes against the de facto nature of Linux.

  • "And as for it being "fun" without a high-speed internet connection; you're not trying hard enough."

    Believe me, I've tried, and this is what happened:

    Segmentation fault; core dumped.

    Segmentation fault; core dumped.
    Segmentation fault; core dumped.
    Segmentation fault; core dumped.
    Maybe you should try upgrading the kernel

    Now that's not a good sign. I can't even run straight without connecting to www.kernel.org toute de suite and hacking the kernel. I'm sorry, but maybe you should take your blinders off and put away your glided, titanium-cover edition of "Evil Geniuses." There isn't a single distro of Linux that can hold up without even the slightest module patch within a six month period. And why? Because Linux is a dynamic operating system; perhaps too dynamic for its own good. That's why you keep hearing about these DDoS vulnerability bugs and hackers discovering printf() loopholes in every single file in /usr/lib.


  • Didn't you see? I said >20K/sec, not >20kbps. I mean transfer rate; 56kbps actually transfers at 4K/sec. That's wicked slow; god forbid you ever try to upload a core dump.
  • Will this thing have a segmentation fault every time I try to do something in a specific game? There is an unspoken law that game consoles should never crash. How will this system hold up to that?

  • Why? (Score:3)

    by lbredeso ( 235131 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:19AM (#756698)
    Okay, we've got PS2, X-Box, and Nintendo Game Cube coming along. Why do we need another game console, even though it does run Linux? What advantage will this game console actually have over the others? As far as game consoles go, I'm not going to go buy one because it "runs linux" . . .

  • Why Linux? (Score:4)

    by OlympicSponsor ( 236309 ) on Monday September 25, 2000 @05:17AM (#756699)
    Linux is great for server, development and even many desktops and I use it both at work and at home exclusively. HOWEVER, Linux is missing (or semi-missing) several pieces to make it an excellent gaming platform: easy to install/configure high-end graphics and, of course, DVD. From the Linux community's point of view, it's great that Indrema will be pushing to better these--but what is the advantage from the Indrema point of view? What possible advantages could Linux have that would make you overlook the glaring flaws that Linux has as a gaming platform?
    --
  • I have an HDTV set and I'm very interested in Indrema's HDTV support. Does this box decode OTA
    HDTV signals? If not, is there an expansion board
    planned to add this functionality?

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