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Games Entertainment

Emugaming Responds To Sega's Threats 91

Posted by CmdrTaco from the emulate-this dept.
JayBonci writes: "I saw this first over at Retrogames, and I thought it might be of general interest to the Slashdot community. Its a response from EmuGaming to Sega's broad letter to news sites over the whole DC disc piracy thing. You can read more about it by going here. The article mentions a lot of Sega's legal tactics for looking out for its IP rights. Do they have much merit? Check out the article and see for yourself."
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Emugaming Responds to Sega's Threats More

Emugaming Responds to Sega's Threats

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  • as a dreamcast owner I am down right disguested by sega, this pirate thing was the one thing it had going for it, I dont condone it but at least more poeple were buying the damn system. Its saddens me, they released a system with bad hardware and for the most part mediocre games, oh well im just gonna buy the ps2 and sell my "dreamcast" cause it really is just a crap system.

    "its thinking"

    No it wasnt and thats why it sucks.

    negahban@mindspring.com

  • No, I think you're missing the point. You don't have to be in an agreement with someone in order to be prevented from stealing their property. Don't pick away at analogies like that unless they fail to make the point intended. Code obviously isn't the same as cars in many ways, but they are the same in the fact that Sega owns code and GM owns cars (before they sell them.)

    Sega, since it's a corporation in the United States, can also view code as its physical property, not information. Your opinion doesn't matter on this issue.

  • Yeah, I also saw beowulf clusters of Dreamcasts used to display Explicit pictures of Natalie Portman. Definately a step in the right direction.
  • Sega has three new commercials out. I've seen them play on Fox, MTV, USA, TNT and NBC.
  • I have an inalienable right to back up my own software. I have a right to use software I purchase whether I drop the CD and break it or my Dreamcast/CDROM/PS/whatever fries and takes the disk with it. I have a right to do this AND I have a right to circumvent the security measures on the device in order to do so. AND I have a right to have sources for information on how to LEGALLY back up my software. It's people like you that allow our rights to be denied and allow us to be exploited. It's people like you that allow EULA's to be twenty pages long and require signing your firstborn son into slavery for five years. If you don't believe in freedom, move to China, because you don't belong here.
  • To: drharris@brobeck.com

    As a concerned, long-time Sega customer, I feel obligated to respond to Sega's recent "Gestapo/bully" tactics that you "Daniel R. Harris of BROBECK, PHLEGER & HARRISON LLP" have been heading up.

    Sega, under your counsel, is effectively trying to ban free-speech. According to your "legal" template, you state...

    "Most gamers would not walk into a store and steal a Dreamcast title off the shelf. These same gamers, however, emboldened by sites like yours and the appearance of anonymity provided by the Internet, do precisely that by copying and downloading the same software titles."

    By your own wording, you are calling me, a long-time Sega customer, a thief. You specifically state, that most gamers wouldn't walk into a store and steal a Dreamcast title. That is absolutely true of me, I would never consider stealing a game. Then you go on to state, that these same gamers, because of the Internet, will pirate a game. Right there, in that sentence, you, Mr. Harris, are calling me a thief. I do not appreciate your lies.

    I am not a thief, Mr. Harris. I own a Sega Dreamcast, a Sega Genesis 3, a 1st gen Sega Genesis, and a Game Gear hand-held system. Between these machines, I own more games than can conveniently be counted. I OWN them Mr. Harris. I also own a computer, a few computers in fact, and a CDRW drive. I've NEVER pirated a game. I've never even used my CDRW to backup a Sega game. But it would be well within my legal rights to do so.

    Spurred by your actions, and the actions of Sega of America, I will now be backing-up ALL of my Dreamcast games, that can be backed-up; Just as I've backed up every piece of computer software that I've ever purchased. Furthermore, I will post advice, and technical information, on every relevant message board, and web site that I can find, to help my fellow gamers, maintain their current game collections.

    I'm not a pirate Mr. Harris. I do not support piracy in any way. I believe, and accurately so, that it can ruin an industry. But I am a formerly loyal, and previously long-time Sega customer. The $700+ that I've spent on my Dreamcast, this year alone, will be the last penny Sega gets of my money. I realize that $700 is not allot of money in the big picture, but $700 multiplied by the rest of my game-buying life is.

    I honestly hope that you will apologize to me, for calling me a thief. And I honestly hope that Sega will apologize to their customers, for allowing you to call them all thieves. You represent all that is bad about the gaming industry.
  • Go read the law for your self.

    Making a backup copy is not illegal.

    Click Here to see. [cornell.edu]

    Blatently copying and giving away stuf that does not belong to you is wrong and illegal, if you do that, you should go to jail. If you demand people pay attention to the GPL copyright, you must also demand people pay attention to somebody elses copyright.

  • It's comments like this that make slashdot a less effective community.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Regardless of whether you think people exercise their right to make legal backups, there are many who do and I am one of them. If they are permitted to take away our right to backup our games just because some people abuse that right, that would be the same as taking away our right to drive a car because some people drive drunk. So think about what the universe is like outside your little world and realize there are people who are different from you. Just because you wouldn't see the value in making a backup copy of a game doesn't mean nobody else does.
  • Boot disks are not used to play pirated games. They are used to play backup games. The people that play pirated games with them are abusers. We should not lose our rights because others abuse them. I'm certain that Linux, which is a tool that is being given out, is hurting Microsoft financially. However, that doesn't mean that we don't have a right to distribute it. We are free to do whatever is within our rights and if it hurts someone (or some corporation) financially, screw them. That's what capitalism is about. They have lots of ways to make the money back. If you can't live with capitalism move to China.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sega worked their asses off trying to get their company back on its feet. It did, with a GREAT turnaround. They tried to protect piracy with proprietary information. A DreamCast disc is software written for a DreamCast. It is (and I hate saying this) copyrighted intellectual property. DCisos.com had no right or reason to want to access the data on those discs, as the DreamCast does this in the fashion they were meant to be. People like this caused the DCMA. DreamCast has not been emulated yet, won't be for a while because AFAIK the chipset/CPU is proprietary, and still then you could BUY the game and BUY a GD-ROM drive. They DO exist. Kalisto had no business copying games. They were not for backup purposes. I frankly think SEGA should win this battle. I do not like the DCMA, but there IS reason for it. -Rob
  • very similar actually but not to the letter (haha)
  • They're not bluffing. Even if they had no law whatsoever on their side, they could still sue most individuals into the ground. They may not be right, but they're strong enough so that it doesn't matter.

  • Are you looking, perhaps, for a purer form of corruption? ;)
    Actually, yeah. I'm asking that people don't lie to themselves. I'm dishonest to the corporations that made the games, but not to myself.

    The problem is that when people start rationalizing why they steal games, they start convincing themselves they deserve them, which they do not.

  • "No, they just don't want to pay anything. You got it right that people don't care, but they're not making some profound statement about the industry, they just want free stuff."

    Maybe people do just want free stuff. But this gets back the the whole "Napster debate". Which is something thats been addressed time and time again.

    I have no problem paying for good games. On the other hand, I don't like paying alot for a game that sucks. So, I guess you could have the same effect if you just didnt buy the "bad" games in the first place, which would cause a decrease in demand. But, then wait, how do you know if a game is good or bad before you buy it? You dont. So again, were back at the beginning.

    Do you follow what I'm getting at?
  • One word: Blockbuster.

    Okay, I lied, more than one word: Game reviews. There a plethora of site that review games; read a bunch, and you can get a general idea of what you would think of the game.

  • I don't know about you, but I just don't rent games anymore. If I go the store, and see something I might like, I buy it. Maybe I'm too lazy to rent stuff, I dunno. Most of my friends that still play video games are of the same opinion.

    Game reviews? Yea, right. Game reviews are what you read to decide if something is worth renting (or in the case of pirates, copying). Besides, have you seen good review for a non-3D game in a long time? Not since Castlevania:SOTN for the PSX. Reviewers are all seriously 3D biased. Most 3D stuff just sucks, IMO. As game machines get more advanced, the games become less of games, and more of "3d world explorations". Even Mario 64 (the original king of 3D platformers), had hardly any enemies worth mentioning. It was fun, but mostly because it was the first of it's genere.

    Maybe I just miss the "classics" like Mario World (SNES), Bonk (PCE/TG16), Zelda 3 (SNES), and the like.

    Well, I guess this post kinda became a "Why 3D sucks rant", but it's still relevant.
  • If you impulse-buy a videogame, and you don't like it, tough luck. They're far too expensive for me to buy a game without having known about it first.

    I don't rent games either, but I also don't buy many games (not meaning I pirate them, I just don't play that many). If you have a resource available that can solve your problem, don't bitch about the problem.

    The real question is how many non-3D games you've seen recently. There's not that many out there, hence not many reviews, good or bad. Strider got good reviews, however, if I remember correctly. Reviewers aren't biased, 3D games are the bulk of what gets made. If you're looking for 2D stuff though, try Strider for the PS as I mentioned above, Legend of Mana (RPG) for the PS, Saga Frontier 2 (RPG) for the PS, or Klonoa (side scroller) for the PS.

    I buy mainly RPGs, and I've avoided some due to reviews I've read. One review isn't enough, but six reviews that all say the same thing is often good enough for me.

  • They had scans of Dreamcast game covers, manuals, CD's, and more on the site. THAT IS COPYRIGHT INFORMATION IN WHICH YOU NEED PERMISSION TO USE. If Sega does not want you to use them, then I can ask you to cease and desist. The boot CD is also their property, because it was done using Sega proprietary information, not reverse engineering (despite what Utopia says).

    My boldface. Just a little slip there, using the word 'I' instead of 'they'. Shouting is another clue, where have I seen that before? Hmmm. Astroturfers are scum of the earth.
    --

  • Corporate Law In The New America,Inc. (Score:3)

    by d.valued ( 150022 ) on Saturday September 23, 2000 @10:42AM (#758949) Journal
    Nader calls it best when he calls the current state of America as a "Corporate Socialist state".

    Meaning: You do something 'wrong' (as defined by the megacorps), and you get severely penalised back to the Industrial Age.

    Folks, the world of Shadowrun looks like it's looming closer.

    Let's just say I intend to be a decker.

  • Emulation and Copying (Score:3)

    by Mike the Mac Geek ( 182790 ) on Saturday September 23, 2000 @10:44AM (#758950) Journal
    OK, I own a DC. Yeah I know, I'm a big damn fan of the underdog. Apple, Sega, I also root for the Coyote.

    Anyway, I agree with Sega. If they don't defend their intellectual property, (Logos, manuals, boot Roms) then they lose it. The only way to do it is to issue sweeping draconian statements like they did.

    Don't get me wrong, I like emu's as much as the next guy. But only for things like older systems, where he parts can no longer be purchased. NES, etc. They should be released into the public domain. Any current selling systems new from the company, I believe should be protected until the system is discontinued.

    It's a hell of a philosophy, I know. But hey, I don't have any lawyers on my back to question it.

  • Re:One reason to copy a game you own... (Score:3)

    by nebby ( 11637 ) on Saturday September 23, 2000 @10:44AM (#758951) Homepage
    True, I suppose situations where a better experience of playing the game on a different platform would facilitate a real use for moving the ROMs around to different platforms (in this case, gameboy->PC)

    That also involves a change in media. I guess if you had some real reason you preferred a DC emulator on a computer over the actual DC, you would have to "back up" onto CD-ROM from the DC disc.. but that would result in a loss movies and stuff anyway which would suck :)

    Since a Playstation uses CD's, there's no excuse :)

    (BTW - Gameboy Advanced looks cool :))

  • woah (Score:1)

    by mikpos ( 2397 )
    That was by far the worst post I've ever read.
  • Actually they use gcc for their compiler. I haven't seen it (no geek I know has one). Looking in KDE 2 it looks like it should run on it, and has support. Another person said that the system interface (or something) was either qt or kde, anyone know anything about this?

    KDE 2 being in final beta is scary when things like kmail don't work on real computers like Alphas. I am scared what kde 2 final will be lik on alpha.

  • To: drharris@brobeck.com Dear Mr. Harris, I have a right to make legal backup copies of games I purchase. However, corporations like Sega like to prevent me from taking advantage of my right by implementing technology that makes it more difficult to make backup copies. Regardless of their actions, I STILL have a right to back it up. Now in order to do that I have to CIRCUMVENT their technology which is designed to prevent me from doing something I have a RIGHT to do. Therefore I have a right to circumvent their technology. I also have a right to share my knowledge with other people in order to help them to make legal backup copies of their own software. Your work is destroying the means by which our knowledge is shared, so that we all may exercise our right to back up our software. Sega is using its MONEY and ability to hire you to make legal threats to TAKE AWAY EVERYBODY's rights. THEREFORE, you are profiting from the prevention of my rights and every other person's rights. You are stealing our rights. You are pocketing the profit. Are you proud of that? Tell me. What would you do if you bought a game and you dropped the CD. You have a CD-copier and could have made a backup copy, but the company that made the game put copy protection on it, so you couldn't copy it. There are no web sites out there that can help you figure out how to circumvent it, because they've all been shut down by lawyers. This happened to me. I had to pay the company $18 to send me a replacement CD. Something which would have costed me $.50 to do, if it hadn't been for the copy protection and the lack of circumvention. The game was Ultima 9. I paid $50 for it. I BOUGHT THIS GAME. I HAD A RIGHT TO MAKE A BACKUP COPY OF IT. But because of YOU, I was unable to copy it, and was forced to pay $18 for something that should have cost $.50. How would you feel in this situation? Frustrated? Well you made it happen. You do every day you send those letters. Are you proud of that? This is a small example of how you get your money. Multiply it by thousands. That's how you and your kind are fed in this society. You eat rights. You eat everybody's rights, including your own. Slowly we lose more and more rights to you. Soon we will be just like the USSR. Thanks to you. Thanks to you. I hope you enjoy your money. I hope you can find a way to sleep at night. And I hope that Sega goes bankrupt. I most certainly will never purchase anything from them again.
  • You could try, if you want to be laughed out of the store.
  • Accountant for me, baybee. This [nodonut.com] little article explains why I think that's the way to go :) (actually, I'm hoping for clinical psychologist)
  • I wouldn't say it was wrong. That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that "backing up" is a front for piracy and that if you break your games you can get new ones anyway.. and that they break rarely. Backing up a CD-ROM game onto another CD-ROM makes sense. Backing up a dreamcast game onto CD-ROM using the ripping utils which pulls the movies and shit off doesn't make any sense.
  • Actually Mr. Harris (Sega's lawyer) cares less about the merits of his case than his ability to intimidate ANY website that publishes unauthorized information about Dreamcast materials. I use the term "unauthorized" to imply not desired by Sega as opposed to illegal content. I don't have a problem with Sega defending its intellectual property interests, but the blunt and oafish tactics of Sega's legal counsel in attacking websites is violating the legitimate free speech interests of sites such as isonews.com which even offered to cooperate with Harris if he could provide ANY examples of illegal content. I don't know if Harris is after publicity or the interests of his client, but I do know that he is attacking the cancer of piracy with a machete when he should be using a scapel. An intersting (and illuminating) dialogue between Harris and the isonews staff should be available at the website sometime in the near future.
  • Your right. Nobody's opinions, except the ones catering to the moderators, count.
  • The site was very obviously NOT there to help people make legitimate backups. Why would anyone need backup copies of instruction booklets?

    I have an inalienable right to back up my own software

    Something has been bugging me since I first heard the term 'fair use'. If you have a legally guaranteed right to make backups, isn't Sega denying you that right simply by selling copy-protected software? Isn't the entire console games industry? How about DVDs? So why doesn't the EFF take them all to court and force them to sell their products on unprotected media?

  • Typos are proof of nothing.

    Of course not. By the way, you do know that your nick is the French word for 'cold', right? I mention it on the off-chance that you were trying to spell Sigmund Freud's surname.

  • Typos are proof of nothing.
  • Sega and more importantly their parent company is publicly traded. Take a look, they are UNPROFITABLE. They make great games, and rather than renting to try and buying what you like people steal them. They make money from software, not hardware, and say what you will: this is theft. I choose to support Sega with my money. I sincerely hope that they succeed in both financial terms and in shutting down DC piracy. Can you really blame them?
  • Pay attention to what I say. I never said that the boot disk should be illegal. I just want everyone to acknowledge that the vast majority of the people don't use it for backups, they use it for free games.
    1. buy two VCRs, and connect the antenna output of one VCR to the input of the other.
    2. configure the VCRs to use different channels, and tune the second VCR so you can see the video output from the first VCR
    3. Insert tape in first VCR and press play
    4. Insert blank tape in second VCR and press record


    Now you can backup your copyrighted video tapes so you don't need to buy a new one when the original wears out. I wonder if the movie industry will sue me for encouraging piracy?
  • That was a pretty good troll, I almost fell for it.

    There are large amounts of Dreamcast commercials on TV, wow. If I have to see one more CGI Randy Moss, I'm going to shoot something.
  • Pay attention before you post.

    The gun manufacturers are not being sued for /making/ guns. They are being sued for /purposely/ and /knowingly/ putting the guns into the hands of criminals buy flooding the market with significantly more guns than there would be legit buyers, making it easy to go down the street and buy one.
    Just like saying tobacco companies are being sued for the stupid choices the smokers make is BS. If tobacco wouldn't predatorily market to children and teens, pump extra nicotine in and deny it and play all sorts of other tricks and just sell straight tobacco they would have no problems. And if the gun makers just made guns and let them be used for what they would instead of trying to get them to criminals in order to sell more, they would have no problems.

    Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
    Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • The site talked about (Score:4)

    by semaj ( 172655 ) on Saturday September 23, 2000 @09:44AM (#758969) Journal
    www.dcisos.com [dcisos.com]

    -

  • What DCISOS.com did WAS illegal! (Score:4)

    by piku ( 161975 ) on Saturday September 23, 2000 @09:44AM (#758970) Homepage
    They had scans of Dreamcast game covers, manuals, CD's, and more on the site. THAT IS COPYRIGHT INFORMATION IN WHICH YOU NEED PERMISSION TO USE. If Sega does not want you to use them, then I can ask you to cease and desist. The boot CD is also their property, because it was done using Sega proprietary information, not reverse engineering (despite what Utopia says).

    Had dcisos.com not posted manuals, etc and the boot dc, and just provided the news, this wouldn't have happened.
  • I am in the process of backing up all my PC game CDs, because my CivCTP one broke. If I owned a game console, I would make backups of all of my CDs because if I didn't, I know I would have to go out and get a new copy of a game regularly. This is just like the old 8088 I used. You got a floppy (original), then you copied the floppy to another (working) and used the working copy. Are you going to tell me that was wrong, or that copying a game on a hard drive to a CD to make sure that all your stuff works if the HD goes bad is wrong? Give me a break.
  • Sega thinking that since they have some big bucks they think they can bully people around. They want to scare these people into stopping spreading information around. The only question is Will the site owner call sega's thier bluff? Will the /. community help if they get sued?
  • haha. im not Sega :P

  • /. editors, please read this (Score:3)

    by Frac ( 27516 ) on Saturday September 23, 2000 @11:26AM (#758974)
    Please make a new "Copyright violations" /. topic icon, so I can filter all these junk pieces out.
  • NetBSD has been running [min.net] on Dreamcast for a few months now. Of course there's no root drive to mount.. yet..
  • Depends. If it started out damaged, you could probably get a new one. Most stores have a limited return and exchange policy (within 10 days, usually). A friend of mine bought and beat a game in one day. It was supposed to be a tough game, but there you go. He took it back, and got a different game. Now, if you go back four months after you bought it, you'll get laughed at.

    Kierthos
  • It's been so long since Sega was top dog, they've forgotten what it feels like. With PS2 being delayed into oblivion, they have an opportunity to come away with the whole console market, but they've forgotten how to pull it off. Remember back when the Sega Genesis came out and all its hype and commercial air-time play? Has anyone even seen an ad for the DreamCast? Not on network television.

    The US isn't Japan. You can't just come out with a new shiny box of electronics (and some Engrish name like "Famicon" or somesuch) and expect 25% of the population to buy one. It takes a whole lotta marketing, and Sega doesn't know how to put out. Sony managed to overcome its Japanese roots, as has Nintendo in some respects (since the days of Virtual Boy -- uggh). I have no hopes for Sega.

    So now, instead of improving their products or trying to sell more, they're picking on the little guy. It's too much like the RIAA/MPAA, and like them, Sega is doomed to a slow fiery death. I say, good riddance.
  • Many people don't know which site this was because of the SITENAME. The site had one thing illegal, scans of the manuals. Other than that, the site was fine. Sega is not pursing sites like boob.co.uk or any site that is not doing anthing illegal.

    If the site would just remove the scans, Sega would have no more argument and it would be back to a normal news site. I am surprised that they haven't just done this. It would be the easiest and sanest things to do.

  • From the site:
    Specifically, the site gives news about how to back up your existing dreamcast games so that when you scratch, mutilate, burn, or generally wear out your favourite game you wont have to rush out and pay an exorbitant price again just to replace it.
    Oh come-freaking-on. Backups my ass. You can argue with the laywers it's about backups, you can argue with the courts it's about backups, and you can maybe keep it legit by saying it's about backups, but it's not about backups. It's about free games. I know this, he knows this (or at least he did at one point, maybe he's been able to convince himself otherwise), Sega knows this, we all know this. The boot disk is a device that enables stealing of games.

    The thing is, stealing the games really doesn't bother me all that much. The boot disk itself is really a marvel to behold, I'm amazed that someone was able to hack the Dreamcast to get it to work.

    What does bother me is when people try to justify the theft. Hey, when I play pirated games on my friend's Dreamcast, I know I'm profiting from theft. I really just can't bring myself to care. It just irks me when people try to argue it's not theft, when they won't admit what they're doing. If you're going to get free games, don't whine about it. Everyone here knows the boot disk was not designed for, nor is it used for making backups.

    From Sega:

    Most gamers would not walk into a store and steal a Dreamcast title off the shelf. These same gamers, however, emboldened by sites like yours and the appearance of anonymity provided by the Internet, do precisely that by copying and downloading the same software titles.
    People in this thread have nit-picked on the word usage of this statement, which I have to admit was poorly thought out. The statement, as it reads, makes it sound like all DC owners are thieves. All they should have added was a "Some of these gamers" and it would have read what is the truth: Most people would not walk into a store and steal a game. I know I wouldn't. On the other hand, most people wouldn't feel as guilty if they pirated the game. I know I don't.

    Everyone here knows the spirit of the statement was that people who otherwise wouldn't steal games may steal games off the internet. Why? It's easier.

  • its talking about dcwarez.com. i was part of dcwarez, and happen to know what the letter said :P. also, both us site owners for dcwarez have connections to emugaming. anyhow, the stuff sega presented us with was total bullshit. they had no transgressions listed. They even wrote back saying they appreciate our better moderation of the boards, but we have 3 hours to shut down (this 8 days before the deadline). They have no evidence, but it's still risky and expensive to pursue the lawsuit. However, this really is an issue of free speech, or lack thereof, and not of piracy. you should all tell sega that.
  • You do know that my nick owes nothing to the French or their filthy language, right? It's a concatination of "Frontovnik Izverzheni'a Derm'ma", pronounced remarkably like the psychoanalyst, whose name [slashdot.org] was already taken.
  • Actually the site talked about is http://www.dcwarez.com, but what would I know?
  • With PS2 being delayed into oblivion

    Delayed? It's already been out six months in Japan. It was never scheduled to be released before the Dreamcast.
  • is www.dcwarez.com not dcisos.com
  • And incidentally, Famicom is short for 'Family Computer'. Famicon is short for nothing.

    Note that Famicom and Famicon are equivalent in written Japanese. Going by the katakana charts, it's actually a Famicon. Going by general pronunciation, its Famicom.

    Either is correct

  • Imagine you have owned a copy of a game, let's say Soul Calibur, for Dreamcast. Now, imagine you did at least manage to make a backup copy of it (even though you have to circumvent copy protection in order to do this (wtf???)). Now, let's say you lose your original game (disc, case, INSTRUCTION BOOKLET) in a fire or something. Is it becoming clear to you? Why does needing copies of the instructions automatically say that you are pirating a game?
  • I agree.

    However, the CPU and graphics chips of the Dreamcast are VERY basic, off the shelf products. The SH4 chip is an off-the-shelf product from Hitachi that is used in a ton of different things, and the Power VR2 chip is a PC graphics card that you could buy, and could have bought for quite some time.

    But yes, currently the DC copying situation is in no way a backup thing. You can't even do it yourself!
  • Quote:
    "People in this thread have nit-picked on the word usage of this statement, which I have to admit was poorly thought out. The statement, as it reads, makes it sound like all DC owners are thieves. All they should have added was a "Some of these gamers"..."

    I'm one who is complaining about the word useage here. The whole point of legal documents is to state, clearly, in exact terms, who they are accusing of what. And in exact, specific terms, they just called me a thief. And that pisses me off.

    To address the other issue of piracy, specifically. There is a reason why piracy is so rampant. Many people feel that it's because the Internet provides a degree of precieved, anonminity. I don't think this is main reason. Allot of people know that true anonminity on the Internet takes allot of work to reasonably achieve. The bottom line is most people simply don't care. Most are tired of being taken advantage of by software publishers, and game makers. And the result of this aggrivation, is that many people simply pirate the games.

    It's these people, who are pirating the games, that will effectivly alter demand for such products. For instance, if I pirate all the Dreamcast/PSX games/whatever that I would normally be buying, the market is seeing decreased demand. Ultimatly, this decreased demand will do two things.

    1. It will cause the industry to collapse.
    2. But before that happens, it will cause producers to stop producing the excess bad games/software, and focous their efforts on producing something the public wants.

    Let's face it, the vast majority of games released (especially on the PSX) are junk. There is only a hand-full of games actually worth buying. If developers concentrated on making good games, then the hopeful result today's piracy will be a re-organized industry, that focous on producing GOOD games, instead of producing allot of games. It quantity vs. quality all over again.
  • I had no idea it was even possible to copy Dreamcast games. Thanks, Sega! And a sweet note of thanks to the RIAA for letting me know that music could be copied at about 5MB per song, and to the movie industry for letting me know Scour had lots of free movies. You guys are swell!
  • normal gamers who would not steal a game from the store, but "emboldened by sites like yours," would steal it from the internet, next on UltraRealTV
  • Oh. I didn't sign an agreement with GM not to steal their cars, so I can do it whenever I want. Right. It's Sega's own code so Sega can determine who and who can't use it. Its not information, like game info or something, its an actual thing.

    I know because almost every single post in dc piracy forums says that. Either everyone is collectivly wrong, or its true. The current rumors (acctually they only ones, around since the start of the DC piracy) are that they stole (or was given) the code from Datel in the UK to use (Datel makes Gamesharks, and they would have boot code because their Dreamcast Gameshark works with a a CD and it does a similar thing, but only lets imports work). So there is a VERY good chance it is indeed Sega's info.
  • I think the Dreamcast section was removed out of fear and not because Sega specifically told them to. Unless you can prove to me otherwise.
  • From http://www.dcisos.com/ [dcisos.com]

    " Your web site is dedicated to the dissemination of information to facilitate and encourage the illegal copying of Sega's intellectual property. "

    dissemination of information
    Interesting terms, those. What does it mean? It means you're telling people what you know, what you've observed, what you've whitnessed, It's reporting, and they're trying to stomp that because the reporter is reporting the wrong news. Would Tom Brocaw(sp?) stand for this?

    Facilitate and encourage
    An interesting terms, those.
    This is suuuuch a lame excuse to threaten somebody with. The Washington post Facilitates and encourages people to be liberal every day! Do you see Rush L. asking them to cease and desist?? No. and neither should dcisos.com cease and desist from dissemination of information or Facilitating and encouraging people to do whatever they want.

  • Just once I'd like to see these knee jerk lawyers get sued for not representing a company intelligently in an elightened community. It would take just a simple one line clause in the contract when hiring of a firm that specifically says that guerilla lawyering risks termination of the defense contract with the company. That seems fair to me.
  • Anyone know of a mirror of the original site?

  • Standard IANAL Boilerplate...

    While reading the letter-and-commentary on the noted website, I was struck by an interesting thought. My impression (see above) is that, as a general rule, you're allowed to make a single copy of software/etc. for backup purposes only. (I think that's pretty much standard on every commercial EULA I have ever seen.) But what if there are technological barriers to making that backup? It is common for CDs/DVDs to include "features" designed to make it almost impossible to do a bit-for-bit copy. (Lots of times this is because the available media is rendered defective -- preburning track 0 and so forth.)

    It is one thing to allow users to make a backup; but what use is this if the company knows that such backups are impossible using "legitimate" equipment or methods? That seems to be exactly what is going on here: you can't make a direct copy of the Dreamcast games to back them up; said website provides information on how to do it; now Sega is upset and threatening to sue.

    Okay, Sega, then how am I supposed to backup my game? Or do I get to return it as defective whenever it breaks/wears out?

  • If your dreamcast game CD is badly damaged, couldn't you take it back to the store (or sega) and get a 1 for 1 replacement?

  • Re:Corporate Law In The New America,Inc. (Score:3)

    by Wah ( 30840 ) on Saturday September 23, 2000 @12:46PM (#758998) Homepage Journal
    I saw Nader's speech last night on C-Span. He ranted like some of the crazy posts I've seen here. That being said, he's got my vote!
    --
  • I thought this quote was particularly interesting:
    next you will have gun manufacturers sued because someone used their gun to kill someone, breweries sued because they facilitate drunkenness or the BBC news sued because they mention a rise in drug dealing.
    This is exactly what happened in the city of Chicago - the city sued gun manufacturers for the costs of law enforcement and adverse health effects of gunshot wounds. Today, it seems that one can't sneeze in the wrong direction without getting sued. Word to the wise - if you are involved in anything even slightly controversial, you better retain legal counsel.
  • I'm sure the lawyer, Daniel R. Harris [mailto] would love your mail [mailto] asking any questions / clarification on this and related issues. And why should just one of us ask and report back? I'm sure we all want our own individual replies. Anonymous web-based email.
    Now, please keep it civil and try not to flood the poor mail server. That wouldn't be nice.
  • So now, instead of improving their products or trying to sell more, they're picking on the little guy.

    1) Sega is demonstrably putting a *lot* of effort into improving their products - their catalogue of Dreamcast games is massively superior to the PSX2 launch lineup, their platform is much easier to develop for and their internal development is second to none. Until recently, the prevailing opinion in the industry was that a library of killer games would guarantee a platform's success. Sega had to try it out to discover that it's not true.

    2) You imply that being the 'little guy' somehow gives these guys a moral high ground. It's not like Sega is trying to stifle legitimate competition, they're stopping the 'little guys' from hijacking their product.

    And incidentally, Famicom is short for 'Family Computer'. Famicon is short for nothing.

  • An emulator is not usually piracy, it is an independently created piece of software. It is debatable whether downloading ROMs is piracy; copyright law has significant fair use exemptions for non-commercial copying, in particular if it occurs among friend and families.

    As for feeling sorry for game companies, there are several things wrong with his arguments.

    First, the more protection you give game companies, the more likely they are going to reissue and rehash and old game. Short term protection is necessary to give those companies the ability to make a profit. But they have already made huge profits. Long term protection, however, removes the incentive for game companies to innovate and come up with new game ideas.

    In addition, copyright law was not intended to let companies manipulate the market by letting titles go out of print and then reissue them in a new format that requires technically incompatible hardware and forces everybody to pay for the same content many times over. Such behavior constitutes an abuse of copyright law.

    As for defending the companies that brought us all those good game console games--what about their effect on open source gaming? Open source games existed before the PC and consoles, but they have suffered significantly from the PC and console game companies' inroads. So, let's keep the "sympathy" angle out of this argument: it is hardly a clear win for Sega and the other game companies.

    What this comes down to is that Sega and other game companies have already taken advantage of copyright laws. And they want even more: prohibitions on emulators, prohibitions on fair use, prohibitions on changes in storage medium, etc. But what's their justification? I don't see much interesting innovation. We, the people, decide what copyright law ought to be, to encourage creative talent to work. If we go the direction that Sega and its defenders want us to go in, we will stifle innovation and creativity for the financial gain of a few stockholders. I think we need to go the other direction: shorten copyrights and liberalized copyright laws. That would encourage innovation and result in better games in the long run, while still allowing authors to make a profit.

  • So piracy will help the industry? That's the most original rationalization of pirating games I've seen yet. Say it with me: I want free games.

    Most are tired of being taken advantage of by software publishers, and game makers.
    No, they just don't want to pay anything. You got it right that people don't care, but they're not making some profound statement about the industry, they just want free stuff.
  • You don't understand the economics of game consoles. A company isn't as interested in making a profit on the hardware. The software is where all of the money is made. Please sell your Dreamcast, I'm sure there are more deserving people out there than you. As for the hardware being bad, you are just plain wrong. And the games, well Sega has always dominated the Arcade side of the market and made some of the best games on the planet (where would 3D fighting games be without Virtua Fighter). By the way, read about all of the problems the programmers are having making PS2 games on hardware that was just created. Seems like they have some problems with their graphics chip only doing interlaced video, who thought that up? Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one, and they all stink!
  • I believe it it letters like yours that waste bandwidth, are the kind that make slashdot a less effective community. At least he had something relevant to say.
  • This time $ega went too far. They forced a legitimate site that merely reported news of the scene, and didn't even include covers, images, or anything to that extent. http://www.isonews.com. Have you visited isonews.com (before they were forced to removed all info that is related to the scene that facilitates piracy)? I would want you to, with the resources provided to you by the site isonews.com, see if you can find a direct link to a game, or get any assistance in finding dcisos. You wouldn't get anywhere. All the site did was report what has been released on a given day, and what the game entailed. NOT links where to find the game, or directions on how to burn the game. The forums, which provided an outlet for sharing information on how to properly copy a game, again, do NOT in any way assist you in obtaining illegal copies of dreamcast ISO's. They simply assist people that obtained the ISO's through resources of their own merit, on what to do. This is not hurting Sega, for the fact that they obtained the ISO through means not related to isonews.com. They are simply sharing information RELATED to piracy, not facilitating it. When I mean not facilitating, I mean not helping the users more easily obtain copy-righted material illegally. $ega is violating free speech taking down a site like isonews.com. I understand taking down dcisos.com, since they DID have direct links to the boot image, and covers. I agree with bomb, just not in the sense about backup images. Who downloads dreamcast games to "backup"? I don't, I'm speaking on the terms of violating free speech. NOTE: I am not related to isonews in any way, just a frequent visitor
  • On the issue of the boot disk, well it can also be used to start legitimate games written by people not using any of Sega's IP. It can also be used to turn your DC into an MP3 player of VCD player via similar software. And you DON'T need the boot disc to play the newest "backups" they are self booting, stick in the CD-R back-up and pow, the game plays. You should really know what you are talking about before you voice your opinion.
  • I don't care if you believe that piracy is an evil that will destroy game developers or if you hold dear the notion that all information should be free. The actions of Sega going after websites that do not directly or even contributorily infringe upon Sega copyrights are wrong. www.isonews.com is a completely legitimate website that reports information that is (or at least should be) protected by the First Amendment. For Sega's "tech saavy" lawyers to spend their time harrassing and threatening the distribution of information instead of actually going after actual software pirates is absurd and offensive. I hope isonews.com takes Sega on in a court of law for the gaming giant hasn't a leg to stand on. Perhaps a federal judge will be able to understand the distinction between free speech and copyright infringement that so many of the users miss.
  • Ford would have no reason to. If you had a picture of your Ford on the internet as reference on carjacking, and using it to show exactly how to carjack, then they would have a reason to, and they probably would.
  • So your saying that the comment...

    "Nobody at Sega gives a shit about your. And you're a fucking moron."

    ...is having something relevant to say?

    Wow, I guess 3+ paragraphs of commentary is just a waste of bandwidth, but 1 unintelligable sentence, now thats really something, eh?

    Go back and read who said what before you say something so stupid again.
  • In a letter widely distributed on the Internet, Moore asked the majority of Americans -- the non voters -- to rebel by casting their votes for Nader. "Friends, we are losing our democratic control over our country - Corporate America has merged and morphed itself to such an extent that just a handful of companies now call the shots. They own Congress. They own us," Moore wrote in the letter addressed to non voters.
    Get a shortwave radio. Sunday night, I was flipping around the 49m band and heard a few speeches by Michael Moore and Phil Donahue about how [votenader.com]:
    • One vote DOES count: The Republocrats took over the House in '94 by winning 19 districts with under 1,000 votes each. Assuming the total number is 19,000, that translates to one vote per school district in the US.
    • Non-voters are the largest political force in America: Consider that the predictions say that only 46-49% of those eligible to vote actually do. That, my friends, makes for a plurality. The non-voters actually construe more than half the electorate and are their voices heard? The shortwave broadcast I heard suggested that if every person who was to vote Nader called two of their friends and converted them from the Legions of Morons (the republocrats and Democritans), then Nader would be the Big Dog.
    • To get involved costs something, but not getting involved costs more. Moore talked about how he wanted to get on a school board to throw out his principal, who he felt was unfair. He was a lazy bastard and called the board of elections, which told him: 1. Even though he was barely 18, he could run. 2. He only needed 25 signatures to get on the ballot. 3. They would mail him the petition. He succeeded in terminating the principal AND the assistant principal.
    • Nader has done more quantitative good than both major-party candidates combined. Airbags and the NHTSA are thanks to Ralph Nader's [nader.org] work against GM. We are not as exposed to radioactive matter thanks to Nader.
    Vote Nader: The Only Candidate Biting The Hands Of Corporate America. [votenader.org]
  • http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:http://www.xt remehw.net/Dreamcast/+&hl=en (dcisos.com seems to be a namezero redirect)

    -

  • The blundering sloth that is law (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The unfortunate fact of the matter is that the law is not equipted to deal with these kinds of matters. Why should it? Existing copyright law has been in place for over 100 years. It was written to deal with means of infringement that were common/possible back then.

    I'm not a lawyer, but lets face facts: Reading any law/statute ought to give you an idea of what it's about, and where the lines of interpretation are. Right? Wrong. Legal interpretation, as we have seen so many times in the past, doesn't have to be either logical or just. (Anyone remember O.J.? We're not talking a few game carts here)

    I'm behind the idea of backing up your games (I still play FF 1 for nintendo.), and I agree that shutting down sites like these serve no purpose other than to flood the legal system with questions it can't really answer. But dude,

    Don't be a moron!

    Find some REAL legal council. Slashdotters are great, but almost none (most likely) have written a bar exam. Don't leave this stuff to chance. Cover your ass.

    I think that the one thing most techies interested in free speech and subsidiary rights forget is that NONE OF USE ARE IN THIS ALONE! If you fall, 10 more people will take up the fight.

    It does no-one any good having our talent supplanted into prison and becoming some idiot's buttery corn hole for a few years.
  • This is not a joke. I saw it [linux-kongress.de] at Linux Kongress in Germany last week. Emacs runs. XBill doesn't run. It's being worked on.

    Well, hmmm, what does it mean? I guess it means Sega should stop being so anal and start looking for new friends in our part of the universe, because nothing on god's green earth will stop us from forcing open whatever technology tries to stay closed.
    --
  • Looks like you failed Analogies 101

  • I thought the guy complaining that Sega is attacking free-speech grated a little. Sega does seem to have gotten this site on a bit of a technicality but does anyone actually think they were unjustified?

    Hands up everyone who believes they have an inalienable moral right to make warez.

  • My 2 cents (Score:4)

    by nebby ( 11637 ) on Saturday September 23, 2000 @10:25AM (#759017) Homepage
    Basically, it all goes back to the argument that people giving information should not be held responsible for those who choose to misuse it. If I put up a website about how to use a handgun, and someone uses my website to kill someone, that's not my fault.

    Of course, the difference, at least to me, between Napster and this is that Napster actually supposedly does have some legitimate legal uses that are being executed (though slim, most people I know use it to just trade illegally copied MP3s, but maybe I'm crazy.)

    As far as "backing up" your console games .. well, that's been the excuse of the console piracy scene since the NES.. and it's a load of crap IMHO. I don't know anyone who "backs up" their games, the people who are competent enough to find the information how to do so have always either not been using that information or been using it to pirate games. If your game breaks you usually beat the shit out of it after not playing it for a few years, and if it breaks while you're still enjoying it you return it. All my old NES games/Playstation Games work.

    There's no question that the "backing up games" == "how to pirate games" .. but, the question really is weither or not that sharing this information is illegal. I don't think it is, but I guess Sega thinks it is and that they can beat it out in court. Kind of unconstitional, eh?

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