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Games Entertainment

Gamepro Talks About Indrema 132

Posted by CmdrTaco from the games-people-will-play-when-they-aren't-vapor dept.
Amigori writes "Gamepro has this article about the upcoming Indrema console. Its a basic article, but it does a decent job of explaining the system in an easy to read way." Talks about how they are expecting hackers to take apart the box (unlike the ZapStation: I asked about this at ALS and was told that they are doing stupid things like encrypting their file system, despite the fact that it is super cool and runs Linux and screams "Hack me Hack me!" and hackers would just love to rip that thing apart and make it better. The next generation of Linux devices is going to be interesting: the ones you can hack (Tivo and Indrema) and the ones you can't (may they see the light)
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Gamepro Talks About Indrema More

Gamepro Talks About Indrema

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  • Re:Indrema will rock (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Sorry to say, but there is very little hope for garage game makers. Not because of big ass rendered CGI cut scenes, but because of everything else that goes into a game. What about art? You can't get away with programmer art (a la Nintendo 8 bit) anymore. What about sound? How can you create good quality sound in your basement (I'm not talking about stealing sounds and tweaking them either, that'll end in a lawsuit). What about voice over work? There isn't really any way to get away with bad in-house voice acting these days (the "grab Bob down the hall" school of voice acting). I'm not saying it's impossible to make a slick professional game with a small group and budget, but it's very difficult. You have to have the talent and the tools and that's what most garage gamers don't have.
  • Maybe what Linux needs is a DirectX port? It would still provide the developers the ability to access the hardware with a fast and flexible API, at the same time meaning that they do not have to worry about the underlying hardware.

    This would certainly make sense for the developers of this console, and would also be a boon for current Linux developers. As it stands at the moment, Linux & X together are not suitable for games, and without something as powerful as DirectX behind it, this console will have exactly the same problem...

    Robert Morgen.
  • Wake up and smell the SDL. SDL, ClanLib, GGI and OpenGL are turning the whole thing around.

    Sure, those things are good. They're working at solving the problem -- which does exist.

    PS: I like SDL too [mattdm.org]. :)

    --

  • I'm not smoking anything, thanks. It's a serious problem that is a real drag on PC game development. There's a lot of weird and different hardware out there. Microsoft's DirectX has been a big benefit, since it does a good job of abstracting these things, but before that, getting your system configured to run various games on Windows/DOS was a serious pain.

    The situation is different on Linux, but it still doesn't escape the base issues. Overall, having a diversity of hardware is a good thing, but needing to support it all is a lot of extra work which takes time away from making the actual games. A homogenous reference platform to develop for makes things drastically easier.

    --

  • Linux is the perfect platform for amateur game developers.
    [snip] But we're seeing very, very little from indie game groups. Little enough that I wouldn't expect to see *any* independently developed pro-quality games for the Indrema.

    I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. Lots of amateur game developers want to get their games into the hands of as many people as possible. Right now, Win32 is the best way to do that, since most amateur's can't afford to target license heavy consoles like the Playstation. If the Indrema gets a non-trivial market share, the close to zero cost to ship demos will draw developers looking to make cool stuff for ego's sake.

  • People generally don't buy a system for the system's sake. They buy it for the games. A killer game can sell huge numbers of systems. As far back as the Atari 2600 (which had killer games of Asteroids and Pac Man) this has been the case. Super Mario 64 and Zelda: Ocarina of Time sold me a Nintendo 64. Crazy Taxi and Tony Hawk sold me a Dreamcast. If Indrema ships a few exceptional games, I'll buy a system. Until then, it's just a nice dream.
  • You, my friend, are an idiot.

    Any casual observer who was familiar with the games mentioned would realize that the source code had NOTHING to do with the explosion of the mod comunity that id helped foster. People were creating mods and `hacking' Doom long before id even thought about releasing the source code.

    Releasing the source to those games might have been a bad idea, but that is not the point of the post you are responding to.

    Bad Mojo [rps.net]

  • Label (Score:1)

    by Sloppy ( 14984 )

    Ah, the old bluffing-label-to-scare-idiots trick. I got quite a chuckle when I bought Edguy's "The Savage Poetry" album. The CD label contains the following words:

    Do not copy! Virus Danger!

    The manufacturer is neither liable for computer
    crashes nor hard drive failures nor data loss!!!

    ---

  • It crashes all the time. Yes, I understand that its the software, not the operating system, but as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't work up to the standard it should.

    This isn't typical. And since Tivos automatically download software updates, your Tivo is probably running the exact same software as everyone else. Smells like a hardware problem.


    ---
  • Uhm, they are called LPmuds.


    -- Keith Moore
  • These things will make great little cheap ($299!) web servers... 600mhz cpu, 64mb ram (hopefully upgradable) 8-50mb HD, 100mbps ethernet.. What more do you need?
  • Don't worry, within a couple weeks of release, any "rights management" will be able to be disabled. Every new copy protection scheme is broken pretty quickly after it comes out, but still they waste their time coming up with them.
  • We have SDL already, why do we need direct x?
  • But if you can do all these great things you speak of, why haven't you? Why hasn't anyone else? You've already got a decent computer, a free OS and a free compiler. Go forth and produce your high-quality game. The problem isn't that you don't have the tools, its that you, a "regular guy" doesn't know how to use them or don't (won't?) devote the time to learn, or that you actually don't have the time to create a game on your own. I don't see Indrema fixing this problem anytime soon. Indrema is, afterall, something you already have, in a smaller box.

    And another thing...3DStudio Max? Did you buy that or did you steal it? Last I checked it was around $4000. Will you actually pay for Indrema software or just steal that as well?
  • Yeah...I know the SDK is free. I was talking about paying for Indrema games.
  • ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Phill Hugo"
    To: "John Gildred"
    Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 10:05 AM
    Subject: Software Licensing

    > What do you require of the software to sign it? Binary only or source
    > also?
    >
    > Phill

    John Gildred wrote:

    Binary only.

    John T. Gildred
    CEO, Indrema
    Entertainment Systems

    www.indrema.com

    --

    Hello John,

    Thankyou for your prompt reply, however I am curious as to how this will stop people adding program loaders into their games and using them to bypass the install/load process completely. This happened a number of times with the Atari Jaguar even though Atari licensed machines able to run unsigned code to devlopers. If what I know of Indrema is correct (that there will be no development variant save for a normal PC and SDK) how is it possible to run code on the Indrema to test it without reverting to such back door and further, surely you have to agree that the temptation to sneak such a process in will be quite high.

    I'm sure I'm not alone in finding the whole "restricted access" to a platform slightly in the face of what Open Source is about, perhaps to the point of it being potentially insulting.

    I am not looking for a long drawn out arguement on the merits of your approach but would like to hear your views of the more technical points above and also whether Indrema may consider adopting a different approach to licensing for the platform.

    One immediate idea that comes to mind is the utilisation of a 30 second or so pause with an explanation that the program being run is unlicensed; or perhaps offering open use as long as your proprietary libraries are unused.

    Regards,

    Phill

  • I think these guys are going to have a shit fit once someone hacks the "digital rights management" stuff in the console, like they did with the MOD-chip for the Playstation2.

    Mark my words, the hackers will prove that TANSTACP (There Ain't No Such Thing As Copy Protection).

  • And how exactly will the Inderama not have professionally designed games? They are just replacing the underlying operating system (which is on every console. Dreamcast has Windows CE and another one, the X-box will have Windows 2001 Lite, the Playstations and Nintendos have secret ones.) Replacing the underlying system will not prevent professionally designed games, any more than Loki games are not professionally designed or the Xbox's ports of PC games are not professionaly designed. Granted, the Inderama is target to some people who would like to design there own games at home and share them with their friends. This doesn't proclude those games at all. We'll probably see a lot of Loki ports and other games migrate to Inderama. The question of professionally designed games is a red herring.
  • People have died for puns like that!

    Actually, it could be the best way to decide the whole Bush/Gore thing once and for all. Give the Presidency to the first one who chooses to have his schlong cut off!

    Hell, if anything else it'll prevent another Zippergate!

  • Clap-clap-clap-clap-clap, "WOO-WOO!", clap-clap-clap!

    I don't have any moderation points at the moment, so this is the best I can do. Good insite, good point! It's more a matter of creativity, skill, and mental perspiration to make a great game; throwing money at a problem doesn't always work.
  • You are so l337! You have an slashdot article generator, don't you?
  • The standard 'lock them in and exploit them" method is not working any longer - the more technically inclined are saying "no thank you" and are advising their less knowledgeable brethren the same

    No, it still works that way.
    Inkjet printer cartridges, a new set of cartridges cost > 50% the initial cost of the printer. (I use the bottle refills anyway)
    Heck even the classic give away the razors, make money on the blades holds true.
    I have all sorts of razors, none of them have interchangable blades.
  • I think one of the best ideas this company has is .. basically cutting out the 'software developers' part of the game-creation cycle. They're assuming people will just create games themselves, and submit them, hoping they'll make the cut. Hell; there might even be some groups/tribes/whatever that will make games that rival N64 or PS2.... who knows. I have a strange feeling that the first few games will be Nintento-esque (16-color bitmaps walking around).

    The truth is, you just can't make a console system out of thin air. Lots of work has to go into it; if you dont have software in mind, you shouldn't even Bother trying to make hardware. It's a good idea and all, but there's way too many loose strings.

    -Egon
  • What is your advantage?! I tell you: it works out of the box. And, it keeps working. Wow! No install time! Already working!? How can that be? Plus, it costs 300 bucks(or will cost). And, how much will it cost to make? My lowly pentium 166 is so slow...why buy a new box when I can get this kickass high-end console instead? Sure, it has less expandability, but do the majority of people care? No! Do I care? Yes. But, I still want one. If only because it will do many things:
    1. Bring new games to linux
    2. Create new linux users
    3. Expand linux hardware support

    All of those are
    good things! Indrema games should run on any linux box. yay! Some indrema users will realize it is running linux, and linux is good, so they will buy redhat(but if they ask me..i'll install debian for them ;). Yay! Good for regular linux. And, if it expands harware support(which is must certanly do since it will be using usb stuff), that is great! Imagine, mad catz will release all of its game pads, and if they are nice, we get source code! And kernel drivers. Oh! Maybe this will increase support for binary, versionless kernel modules too? I see that as a plus(no more compiling source code to get a driver running). Although I have my own ideas on versioning(such as the module having a version id..and the kernel knowing which version of kerenl modules it can't run...) But, the indrema will be generally good for linux. It is all I ever wanted -- a common platform, plus upgradibility. So, not everyone will have the same graphics card, but that doesn't matter, it will be using openGL. My HD might be bigger than yours, but so what? Nothing should be so low level that a game can't run on all indrema's. On the old systems, like the NES or N64 that are relatively low end, the little bit you gain from tweakign the game is amazing. But on such a high end system, does a 1% speed loss matter?


    -------------
  • Ok, this is sort of a "mee too".

    It sounds like he (Gildred) is doing all this by the seat of his pants. It's just like a big gamble... and the odds are probably against him.

    There's no announced games, there probably won't be any games until just before the thing releases--*if* it releases.

    Also, about speed:
    Typically, having a fully multi-user Unix-derivative OS is not a plus for a game console. I mean we want to be able to access the hardware as fast as we possibly can with as little an amount of stuff in the way as possible. I think there's a lot of stuff that a standard complete OS does that are not condusive to this goal. This system won't really be a console system, it'll be PC-in-a-console-box.

    It would, of course, be nice to have a console system that was hack-friendly, but it seems unlikely to me that this one's going to make it.
  • Sure, hackability may affect performance - in fact it may improve it. Take a known business in another sector - cars and Dinan [dinanbmw.com]. Among other things, Dinan is known for reengineering (read: rewriting) the software that controls your car - engine timing and the like. In doing this, they squeeze out the last ounce of performance from the car.

    I'm assuming that over time people will share libraries of code for writing games on the Indrema (or whatever box). Letting people in to start tweaking the assembly for the fastest possible operation is a Good Thing(tm).

    When you think about it, your logic is the same that some would argue to keep <insert favorite monopoly here> code private. However, I believe the open eyes, many hands approach has many more positives than negatives.

  • That makes no sense.WHAT hardware variations?

    It's x86 based.

    No emulating required.

  • PC incompatibility?

    What the hell are you smoking?

    People run oses and software on a bazillion different configurations quite fine.

  • DRI = DirectX alternative

    Does very well.

    Try it some time.
  • Mac users use 15 year old Fetch for FTp. Winlusers use DirectX. Says so in the Bible, Koran, and the holy books of the church of the subgenius.
  • Wake up and smell the SDL. SDL, ClanLib, GGI and OpenGL are turning the whole thing around. Heck SDL is about the sweetestest cleanest library I've ever seen.

    And I'm an Amiga fan.

    And speaking of hardware support, take alook at Win2k, There's like nothing as far as drivers forthcoming.
  • "the ones you can hack (Tivo and Indrema) and the ones you can't (may they see the light)"

    can't hack my ass. What are they going to do, drag people to court for posting documentation and utilities on the web?

    Oh wait... damned DMCA... Sometimes I envy people living in free countries, unlike us poor SOBs in the good old USofA.
  • The article states that there will be 30 games at launch, but has anyone seen any evidence that there will really be any indrema games?
  • *sigh* as your friend I don't appreciate being called an idiot. You know better.

    I a well aware of the hacking that went on in the DOOM community. I am well aware that id gave no help when the initial map editors were relased. I used several of those editors. I am well aware that modding exploded with Quake and QuakeC and that even then id wasn't always helpful.

    I don't see why you feel justified in calling me an idiot. Where do I relate the MOD community with the release of the source code? If anything I point out a *disadvantage* of releasing the source to those games, making it easier to cheat (quoting the original post "...they realized that giving someone knowledge doesn't take it away from you. In fact, in most cases, it will help you."). I also point out that that hacking has a downside, almost invairably the first use of hacking is to *cheat*.

    If anything, It looks like you took offense to me putting a bad spin on id releasing their soure and decided to go into "call people idiots" mode.

    Now please, instead of starting off with your flamethrower think before you post. You'll at least appear more grown up.
  • This probably doesn't hold as true for the Indrema but in general the rule is that a console game is guarranteed to sell tens of thousands of copies. That means money in the bank. This is also why many many game companies are making the console their chief delpoyment platform with PC ports as a distant second. You MAKE MORE MONEY with consoles. I don't suppose garage developers would be predisposed to making some nice income.

    Oh, and the usual avoidance of compatibility headaches factors in.
  • On the flip side: the source was released when there was no danger to id software of it being hurt by the source being released. Folks hacking those same games also came up with cheats that ruined the game (see Quake) for other people. Remember, there *is* a downside to almost every issue, particularly hacking. Someone (justly or not) loses out.
  • When it comes to console gaming, the thing that matters most is games, both quality and quantity. If all the Inderma has is Quake III, then this thing isn't going to sell at all maybe the hardware isn't vaporware, but this statement:

    Gildred has been very coy about naming specific titles that are in development for the Indrema system, however, he does acknowledge that "content drives the platform." Gildred states that, "We are positioning ourselves as the platform for the hottest titles." He added that for launch the company is targeting 30 games that would be a mix of existing tiles ported to the system as well as original games. But with no specific game announcements scheduled until early spring 2001, Indrema watchers will just have to take his word for it.

    seems to indicate to me that the titles are vaporware.
  • I've been following the gaming industry for five or so years and I haven't seen anyone mention the following angle on Indrema so I guess I'll indulge.

    As most of you know, game consoles sell at a loss, but then make up the cost in software. How do they do this when third parties create software? They lock the cartridge/CD system, and then become the only manufacturer of cartridges/CDs. You write the games, then they manufacturer them for $5 to $15 (last I could remember). This price is substantially above actual manufacturing costs.

    However there is an insidious side to this control. If you think up a way to take advantage of this system, you can trust that they've already done it!

    For instance, Nintendo (as I recall) required a minimum number of a cartridge to be built. This squeezed out any small, creative teams, because they could no longer make a small batch of games to see how it went and pour the money back into more units.

    They also make claims to quality control. If your game isn't good enough, they don't let it through. This justifies some of the cost, but keep in mind that Sony, Sega, and Nintendo all have their own first party games. Don't be surprised if your quality isn't deemed high enough if one of these companies happens to be making a similar game. One of the more lucrative game genres, sports, is owned by Sony... on PlayStation. Meanwhile special deals can be cut with large companies such as Electronic Arts (the Evil Empire of games).

    Sony, I believe it was, was dragged into court over limiting companies to a total number of games, limiting a company to only Sony games, and limited distribution in certain countries.

    It is the monopolistic control of individual, locked systems that would seem to be the industries biggest political battle, and open source only won't help.

    Now and then, I see a posting from some major publisher who knows that most games are sold on consoles and so they must write to these consoles, but you can tell that they are miffed that all the risk of manufacturing has been pushed in their lap. They're used: given a special deal to get a Quake or a Final Fantasy on a brand new system to help sell it, then charged out the wazoo to compete for racing or sports titles.

    So along comes Indrema, which gets to use a free (open) OS and COTS hardware and designs. Once the system is built for cheap, they still plan to control the spice so to speak, by doing the locked CD trick. If they didn't have enough troubles already, this will surely kill them. They are not big enough to have the slightest chance playing the same game as the big boys. All the developers are wise to this game and they might as well go with a company who plans to spend $500 million on marketing.

    What is needed is some sort of guerrilla marketing tactic. Perhaps the ones that follow won't work, but you can get the idea:

    Idea 1: Sell the system for a profit! What an idea! (-: Consumers will balk at the price... until they realize they can get games for $10 cheaper. They can even get a few simple games for $5, like Vegas games and simple arcade style games. Plus they will get much more software. (Nintendo tried to limit software on the N64 to incredibly expensive, "quality" titles and Sony ran away with mind share for having "many more games" even if most were crap.)

    Meanwhile, plenty of developers may come out of the woodwork to support a system that gives them a fair risk/profit reward (and control of their own manufacturing). Make a new system in five years with updated hardware but which is completely backwards compatible (PS2 does this). Sure, Indrema couldn't make Nintendo's billions, but they could make a happy profit and know they helped shift the power in yet another monopolistic industry.

    Idea 2: Make a system that is truly for the masses. By that I mean it doesn't have to have the latest hardware. Let X-Box, G-Cube, and Z-Parallepiped fight over a few elite hard-core gamers. I still play Half-Life mods at home. My CPU, graphics card, and 3D sound card can be bought for $120 at a local store!

    Idea 3: Get rid of those crappy controllers. Gawd those ruin games! (-: Find a way to get a mouse on there, and a "binary" joystick.

    That's all. In short, open source is pointless on a closed system. What we need is an open system!

  • Well... if you leave a really big capacitor, you can claim that it's part of the circuitry. It'll be their fault to open it up and zap themselves stupid. Oh wait, they *ARE* stupid to open it up in the first place...
    ---
  • Here's two ideas, put "Warranty void if this label is broken." and "Warning: To avoid personal injury, please have a certified technician to service this product."
    Then again, it's just a label.
    ---
  • It will be quite nice for you to be able to hack/develop a great system without having to have oodles of money and a company under your belt. Especially when that system runs linux (yes, I am a little anti-M$.) Personally I have been looking more towards hardware specs of systems like the Dreamcast (hoping to make BBSish) software using the modem and it's nice to see a company finally realizing the great potential of not only having it's hardware/software tested thoroughly for errors, etc but also have a lot of free development and maybe pick up ideas. Let's hope this is the beginning of an emerging trend in the gaming industry :D
    .--bagel--.---------------.
    | aim: | bagel is back |
    | icq: | 158450 |


  • I think the main problem with this concept is that any garage-group capable of putting out their own quality game is going to have their talent hired out from under them to work at the real studios. The only thing that might spurr a group of developers to want to do a renegade after-hours project would be to pursue creative freedom that's not available under the helm of a major studio. So in that case, you might see a few super-gorefests with huge bare tits running on the indrema.



    Seth
  • But we're seeing very, very little from indie game groups.

    Actually, this isn't true. While very few amateur games being built from scratch, given a bit more to start from, ameteur game developers have done just as much as the "pro" game developers. Look at the Half-Life modification scene, and in particular Counter-Strike. While Gooseman wrote only a small portion of the code (most of the code is in the engine or starts in the SDK), the artwork and maps in Counter-Strike are fanstastic, and have made it by far the most popular first-person shooter written.

    I think that for something like the Indrema to succeed, they need something similar to Half-Life or Quake: good as a game, but better as a base from which to write other games, with a powerful SDK.
    ------------------
    A picture is worth 500 DWORDS.
  • If a game isn't certified, it won't run.
  • Indrema has talked about selling an expensive "developer console" that would run uncertified games, although that solution has its own set of drawbacks.
  • lol. That is exactly my feeling about it.
  • It's illegal to booby-trap consumer products? Damn, guess I'll have to comment-out the section of code that deactivates my program after 30 days...
  • But if that's how you decide whether to buy a console, then you're obviously not a console gamer anyway ... after all, this position is really no different than you would expect from any other console manufacturer. So you probably weren't a customer anyway. (If you do own a console, then you're just whining, I suppose, and will buy it if the games are good enough.)

    They're trying to sell to the market that will buy a console, not to the very limited group that will base their buying decisions on the company's politics rather than how good the console is. That's not neccesarily a bad position to take, but I don't think that anyone's too sad about not selling to you.

  • What in the world makes you think its going to be $299??? It will cost more than that just to BUILD it!
  • I can agree with this. The groups that would buy it for its 'open-ness' aren't nearly enough to make the indremeda profitable. Console gamers could care less about what's powering the system. All they care about is the performance of the games, and the graphics that are displayed.
    Actually, I'm not very pleased with a linux console-like machine I have... My TiVo. It crashes all the time. Yes, I understand that its the software, not the operating system, but as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't work up to the standard it should. How will the Indremeda work as far as games? Any different??


    --
  • Ok, so they console market has proven to us that the money is in the software, not the hardware. Yet these guys aren't writing much software themselves. Most of the software for it is going to be OSS...

    Anyone else wondering how long until they show up on fuckedcompany.com?
  • You really should have linked to the charts... it's a better indicator of how badly these companies have sunk.
  • Thinking "a startup in this industry has to walk before it can run, crawl before walk", it's my impression that they are basically trying to accelerate that part of the gaming maturity curve by having lots of contributors of content from the get-go, possibly (in their wildest dreams) helping start some new form of synergized, loosely-associated consortium of unemployed former dotcommers (?)...

    I dunno, I told my 13-year-old son that Indrema's specs blew the hell out of PS2's and now he wants an Indrema for Christmas... well, I solved the problem this year, but what am I gonna do in the Spring when it arrives? I guess I will have to explain what a 'business plan' is to him now...

    ...and tell him how MS's X-BOX has better financial backing... eeesh

  • Cool idea. Good start. But where are the games? The reasons I'm NOT buying a PS2 is because I don't like any of the games available now or on the release list, I already have a DVD player, and it costs too much.

    I'll stick with my Dreamcast [sega.com] and PSOne [playstation.com].

    Why?

    Shenmue [shenmue.com], Samba de Amigo, Jet Grind Radio, F355 Challenge, Grandia 2, etc. and Gran Turismo 2, Reboot, and Ghost in the Shell. Dreamcast has more great games than I can afford and have time to play. Please don't think that I'm biased to Sega, 'cause I'm not. I'm biased toward good games and they just happen to be on Dreamcast at the moment.

  • The best excuse for things like that (and it's actually true today) is:
    It's a Monday!

    Add to that that it is a Monday after a long holiday weekend and you got an excuse for not doing anything right today! Works for me anyway.

  • Wow, and I thought my Monday was sucking. If only I could pass you a BAWLS over the Internet;-). The only thing that gets me through those tough Mondays.

  • Funny. I consider myself an "early adopter". I was one of the first people to purchase a Palm. I was one of the first people to purchase a Dell Inspiron 4000

    Now If you had said "I was one of the first with a Newton [oldschool.net], or I was one of the first with a Grid Lap-Top [griduk.com]" I may have agreed to your claim as 'first adopter' - but I hardly think there is anything revolutionary about a laptop with snap on/off colour wrist pads. Now would you consider yourself on the techno bleeding edge if you bought a iMac 'before everyone else'...

    It cannot, and shouldn't, be done
    Wrong & Wrong - but clearly irrelevant.

    No hacker argues that they shouldn't rip apart their computers as soon as they buy them
    Every 'hacker' I know removes the case from everything he/she owns - before they plug it in...

    Im really not interested in 'speaking for the hackers of the world' here -not only is it far to 31337 for me and just a little silly- but you clearly don't understand the vein of this argument, my response, or the true nature of the article. Did you even read the post that you responded to? The articles? Taco's comments?

  • Dont mean to drag us to this level... but I own one razor, bought it years ago, and I consider th e replacement blades beyond trivial - ~$10 a year for blades... I suppose it could be $45 for a lifetime if you bought a moderate straight razor.

    You still use paper? ;)

  • Plays MP3s, TiVo functionality, etc. It's not just for games.
  • That doesn't count.. if it's a program, or any other file on a computer, then it's digital. That means no real world rules apply.. It'll cure your baldness, heal you, give you spiritual guidance, remove cancer, enlarge certain areas, cure blindness and all illnesses..
    But pray to god if you email doom2 to someone.
    -since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
  • "...developers are charged a fee when a game is submitted for technical certification and royalties are charged on each unit of software sold. Freeware games, and Gildred believes there will be plenty of them, will only be charged for technical certification"

    Prediction: People will develop games for free and offer them over the internet without paying for or using "technical certification".

  • Where did you find this out? I've read through the full article and most of the site, and it doesn't indicate this anywhere I can see. In fact, it does not make sense that a game would not run until it was certified, because then they could not test it on the system (even though they can develop it on a PC).

    From what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the Certification process is just Indremeda's way of ensuring that games are bug free. It also seems to be a handy way to pay the bills.

  • How many people are actually going to buy a console because it's based on Linux? A few thousand hackers? Who's gonna develop for it in that case?

    http://www.blitzbasic.com/

  • The "open" angle of the Indrema is something that is being overhyped. Open is good, yes, but consider how few decent games have been developed for Linux.

    Have you ever tried developing a game on Linux? Between the lack of consistent hardware support and the nearly infinite number of hardware setups around, it's next to impossible. It's only just recently (kernel 2.2) that Linux even started to support graphics at all--up until then it was "hack the hardware, and hope the user has the same hardware you do"--and there still is not more than minimal support for joysticks (I have to give insmod parameters for my joystick every time I load the module), no support at all for 3D graphics, no way to get consistent timing (unless you write a kernel module to hook an interrupt, which brings in a host of security problems).

    Then, of course, there are the classic PC problems, such as gazillions of video cards (many of which lack Linux support), flimsy sound hardware (hello software mixing--even the Amiga 1000 in 1985 was better), etc. I have enough trouble just moving my game-in-progress between my desktop (direct hardware support via SVGAlib, VESA doesn't work) and my laptop (VESA support via SVGAlib, no direct hardware support).

    In fact, though the Indrema has me excited, I was very disturbed to read that they're planning a "line" of Indrema systems and going to allow upgrading of the video card--unless they have awfully good QC on just what hardware they release, they're just going to duplicate the failures of the PC all over again.

    --
    BACKNEXTFINISHCANCEL

  • Plus any other cool things people figure out how to make it do. That's one of the upsides to the hackable part.

  • I think they get that. The article mentions having a "complex software development kits that change every generation" as a negative of other systems, and says Gildred's vision is to provide a "upgradable gaming system without the headache of PC incompatibility".

    --

  • But if you can do all these great things you speak of, why haven't you?

    I think that unlike novels, a lot of people don't have a good game inside them, but a derivative re-hash. I have a little list of games I'd like to written in my copious spare time, and they're mainly conversion/rewrite/revamps - networked, shiny Paradroid 90 for example, and the obligatory Elite-done-right. That said, I like Paradroid, so for me that'd be a good game. It'd probably piss off a lot of 'modern game' fans though.

    Actually competing with the big boys at the technical biggest-fastest-prettiest-FPS-engine game is hard work, but coming up with an interesting game concept isn't easy either. Ones the perspiration and the other the inspiration that, err, that guy talked about (edison?).

    And another thing...3DStudio Max? Did you buy that or did you steal it? Last I checked it was around $4000.

    Doesn't appear to be out yet, but 3d Studio gMAX [discreet.com] will be a free, game-design-oriented version of Max, aimed at the modding communities. Even without that, I believe an educational Max license is considerably less that $4000.
  • I want to buy one, and the other geeks in my office want to buy one. While this straw poll falls somewhat short of a statistically valid population (:-), I think it means that there is a market for the Indrema.

    So, if supporting the community is your goal, I guess I'd advise that you stock it.
  • Gotta agree with this one. People who post here
    A) Are willing to pay 50 bucks to help out a small company doing something cool with Linux.
    B) Have 50 extra bucks to spend.

    A vast, vast majority of consumers do not fall into both of the above categories. Also throw into the mix the fact that by the time Indrema ships in "late spring", both the X-Box and the GameCube will be firmly sitting in the minds of all gamers.

    I own a PS2 and love it. My next major purchase will almost certainly be a GameCube. I love Linux on my PC. On my console system, I love professionally designed games.

    -B
  • When the Norwegian kids read about what happened to the Swedish kids, they'll X-ray a console and figure out how to drill through the case and disarm the charge.

    In 1937, the Lensmen [168.150.253.1] observed "What Science Can Create, Science Can Duplicate".

  • Why not just do that with your PC now?
  • Your TiVo shouldn't crash. Usually a crashing TiVo is the first sign of a failing drive. Ours has gone for months without a problem, as has 3 or 4 other people's I know. My friend's TiVo would crash every so often...and then the drive just died.
  • runs Linux and screams "Hack me Hack me!"
    I hope it has a volume control or something...
  • "[...]no support at all for 3D graphics[...]"
    While I agree with many of your other observations about Linux' shortcomings as a gaming OS, that one just plain isn't true. Support for 3D graphics under Linux, through the magic of OpenGL [opengl.org], is actually pretty good--and getting better.
  • When this comes out, I am going to buy one and burn a CD with as many emulators and games as I can stuff onto it. That would be worth having it alone I think, to be able to play everything super nintendo and below on it, maybe playstation, maybe nintendo 64.

    Also, I bet companies like Loki want to see this happen, simultanious (spelling?) releases of games for both the console and the PC. And they already have alot of games that could be ported with little effort.

    And the best part... open source game projects! oh hell yeah.


  • That may be the irony of the Indrema if it ever makes it to market: its hackable nature may, in fact, turn it into anything *but* the hackable console that Indrema thinks it will become. It'll be hackable, yeah, but it won't be a gaming console: it'll be a webserver appliance or MP3 appliance or internet radio.

    I mean, there's nothing worse than hacking something the way that corporations (TIVO, indrema) *want* you to hack it. It's much more fun to come up with something odd.

    And it's especially fun to come up with something both odd and irksome to the companies that produced the hardware. LOL.

    But one thing I've noticed with hacking (and mind you, my own "hacking" has been limited to TIVO and I-Opener) is that the desire to hack a particular appliance only has a limited half-life. I've got an iOpener gathering dust and no desire to go back into the case of my TIVO and do more voodoo with the serial port and PPP.

    Indrema may suffer this lethargy once it reaches market and attains a critical mass (which may, admittedly, take a while): the hackability desire will wear off very, very quickly and everyone will be left with Indrema paperweights -- or Indrema consoles used, as mentioned above, as web servers or MP3 players or hard frisbees.

    Regardless, my prediction is this: Indrema won't make it to the marketplace, period. Nor will ZapStation, BTW.

    Me, I'd buy the ZapStation right now -- right this minute -- but I notice no press about it, nothing new and/or tantalizing on the ZapStation website, and no advance word leaking forth. I suspect it'll be like the TIVO -- warm and fuzzy and inspire a ZapStation army and a cult of fanaticists -- but it's taking way too long to get to market. It oughta be on sale right now -- right this minute -- and I oughta be able to go to the website, purchase it, and have it shipped 2 day FedEx. But, alas, I think it, too, will be vaporware. Sorta like that 3D card from Sweden that everyone talked about right as the GeForce was coming out -- a year and a half ago -- I forget the name.

    Ah well. The web is a magical thing. Lots of space to talk about technology that will never make it past some smooth-talking CEO's PowerPoint presentation.
  • probalby the biggest argument against indrema and its open source approach to gaming is that individuals, regardles of how motivated, cannot compete with the high production cost of big studios. I believe this is argumant is failed and about to be put to rest.

    I'm just a regular guy with a PII300, 128MB of ram and a TNT2 card. In spite of this i can have 3ds MAX run fairly well on my system, create complex 3d worlds and characters and choose and run any programming language i desire and come up with a cool 3d engine and a story. hell, i can give my system to Carmack for 2 months in a deserted island and you'll see what production value is..

    my point is, you only need big studios for pre-rendered, motion captured scenes, and i can certainly live without that. a good game, good enough to compete with today's greatest, can still be a garage game, i guarantee you. motivated individuals can conceive and program entire worlds using good 3d software and programming skills, everything else is the story, gameplay and experience, and these can't be bought.

    the days of commander keen, wolfenstein 3d and why not, wing commander I are not over yet...
  • 1- i haven't done those great things because i'm just a good programmer, not a great programmer, much less a game programmer. this doesn't mean there aren't any great programmers out there who would make good games, just like there are great programmers out there that decided to write samba and apache.
    2- the copy of 3ds max that i have was downloaded off of warez. i'm not ashamed to say it. i use it to satisfy my own personal artistic needs (stress relief they call it), and if i were to profit from it i would probably have to buy it (although reluctantly). in that case $4,000.00 would not be a high price to pay compared to what good 3d scenes go for nowadays.
    3- didn't you read the article? guess you were busy flaming the world. developing for indrema would cost as much as developing for linux: $0 plus tax. you pay if you sell your games, you pay if you want the technical certification.
    4- indrema is not something i already have: there are no good standard (or widely used) APIs for game development in linux. and if i wanted to make games for directX on the windows platform, i would be restricted to closed everything. indrema gives you standard hardware/software and promotes a game development community through their website and overall cool attitude where you can share textures, game engines, ideas, characters, etc. you can also collaborate with games that are being developped much like you can do today with open source and free software projects.
    5- and as i write this post, i realize what indrema is already giving me. like i said i'm no game developer, but i can come up with pretty pictures and efficient 3d meshes of my own. that qualifies me to participate in any open source game out there! and you said indrema is something i already had? no way! wouldn't it be cool to have your monster design make it to quake 7? i'll leave it at that.
  • "We will support the digital rights management system to the Nth degree."

    Digital rights for corps but not for consumers, of course. Sorry John, you've just lost a customer.
  • OK, I don't want to give this project bad luck, or anything, but I was curious as to what may happen if the Indrema flops? I would assume that the console's software (not the games; just their additions to the operating system and whatnot to make their box work) is probably heavily intertwined with GPLed code, in which case some or all of it would also be under the GPL. (Can anyone confirm or deny this?)

    So if Indrema either dies after it's launched, or doesn't quite make it that far, would it be possible that they would release specs, plans etc. for the hardware, allowing some enterprising person (or just some great hacker) to start putting them together themselves?

    This would be a good solution to the problem of obsolete hardware that you can't get any more (how many of you have old NES games around, but your systems are broken?) Also, the Indrema seems like it might be a great way for budding console game programmers to hone their skills -- and a completely open system might even further that.

  • The problem with Indrema is that they aren't doing anything unique. The are putting PC components in a nifty box. Anybody can do this. Ok, so they are putting linux on it. Thats cool, but there isn't anything unique about that either. If they get it built, I'm sure the Linux hacker (is that bad word) will buy them, but with out a distribution channel they have no way of competing with XBoX and PS2. Don't forget that the XBoX and PS2 hardware will be and is heavily subsidized. E.g. its the Razor/Razorblade model. Sell the HW cheap, make money off the games. If a consumer has to pay $400 - $500 for an Indrema box then why buy an Indrema box instead of a PS/2 or XBoX? E.G. Whats the business model? How do people make money working with Indrema? If there is no answer to this, or the answer is cruddy, then Indrema is destined for listing on fuckedcompany.com
  • I have not read the article but the one thing that gamers are always concerned about when you start to hack a system or a game is cheating. The other thing they may be concerned about is that the thing that makes a console special is that the people writing the software only have to write to one set of hardware and they know what that hardware and the OS driving that hardware is. Now having looked at GamePro a couple of times I'm going to guess that they don't understand the whole OSS peer-review type system and are assuming that the games will be more or less closed source. This would mean that my you and me fixing the machine they then have to rewrite everything to take into account our changes forcing people to rebuy games etc etc. They are wrong but I can see how they would see this as taking away the one advantage a console has over a PC.
  • Out of all the developers for the Indremeda, especially the 'garage developer', how many will go ahead and make a linux PC port to their game? And if not, how soon does an open-source game get ported to a linux PC once it comes out? What is my advantage to getting an indremeda, when I already have a linux box??


    --
  • I do hope it truly is hackable. i think this is a wonderful idea especially for RPGers like myself who can write new plots, characters, monsters, dungeons..

    Just like people hacked their char's in Diablo I??
    Keep in mind, hacking a game has its ups (new plots, better monsters), and downs (invincible players). Imagine what 31337 B1FF would do to it...

    --
  • Just because something runs Linux doesn't necessarily mean it is, or should, be hackable. A lot of companies rely on internal trade secrets to secure a product. If hackers take apart a console, and create one better than the next generation console a company plans to make, and has already stepped up production for, and is committed to selling, how is the company going to make a profit.

    Further, consoles are the worst thing to hack. The whole ideal behind a console is that the hardware is in a fixed state, that all games can take advantage of the fact that all the users have the same hardware, and can tweak the game to take advantage of that hardware (as opposed to, for example, the many different hardware configurations a game like Unreal Tournament for the PC must handle). If you take apart the console and modify it, you are breaking the whole principle of making it a console in the first place.

    Computers, Tivos, they all make sense to hack. Consoles, VCR's, Toasters, there really is no point.

  • After all - who are these notorious 'first adopters'*? And how many of those know about the "open source" idea and its advantages? Id bet it is virtually 100%.

    Funny. I consider myself an "early adopter". I was one of the first people to purchase a Palm. I was one of the first people to purchase a Dell Inspiron 4000.

    In no way did I ever say to myself "It's my civic duty to dismantle this thing and reveal its parts to the world" or even "Gee, it would be cool to rip this thing apart."

    It's a funny thing about hackers. They only "hack" what they enjoy hacking, and argue their "truths" as universal. No hacker argues that they shouldn't rip apart their computers as soon as they buy them for the "advantages of Open Source". But they don't rip apart their cars. Or their toasters. Or their nightstands in their bedrooms. There's no "civic duty" to reveal the innards of a kid's wagon, either.

    To argue that everything should be hacked is absolutely ridiculous. One, it's not useful, and two, it simply isn't practical. A hacker would go nuts, infinitely dividing each part until they try to figure out what quarks go where in a table. It cannot, and shouldn't, be done.

  • Here's my real issue-
    We love to hack these boxen, be they net-pliance's, TiVOs, etc., and the companies either tolerate it (TiVO) or revolt (Net-Pliance/Digtal::Convergence).

    We can't reliably predict which Indrema or ZapStation will do.

    Just because they use our beloved Linux, it doesn't mean that they share our ideals and support our curiousity in making the box do new tricks.

    In fact, in the article, ZapStation plans to secure their box so that it will be very difficult to hack. Indrema plans to use every measure of digital management systems to protect the DVD content, and content of the games, even though no such management system exists at this time.

    We also know that many users will want to disable macrovision/digital management/other methods of copy-prevention, and make divx/mpeg4/(insert codec here) copies for *possible* legitimate playback on linux desktop systems. (I say possible because honestly, there is some chance that people will do it to make backups of content they already own, some for the satisfaction of their curiosity, and some will do it to violate copyright law.)

    But when these boxen do become widely available and the first thing we do is hack them to pieces, we run them out of business.

    Many of /. whiners say, "We wouldn't hack 'em if they just built it the way we wanted them to in the first place" But they couldn't start a business if they built the boxes the way some of you would want them. (and I'm guilty of this too, to an extent. Dangnit, I want ethernet in my TivO from the factory!)

    I only wish that we resist the urge to break open the seals that ZapStation and Indrema choose to place in their boxen right away, that we support them by using them as they intend us to, and support them for using Linux.

    Let's not hack them out of business like we did to Net-Pliance.

    A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
  • A lot of companies rely on internal trade secrets to secure a product. If hackers take apart a console, and create one better than the next generation console a company plans to make, and has already stepped up production for, and is committed to selling, how is the company going to make a profit?

    I dont think you get it - if you remain open and honest with your customers - inviting them to develop with you, to help you direct and grow the system you achieve a very special synergy - this synergy is manifested very well in GNU/Linux, the iPaq from Compaq, id Sofware as a whole, TiVo and many others. Where do you think iOpener would be today if they had reacted exactly opposite? Maybe they would still exist.

    People are getting increasingly wise to the method's employed by Big Business to screw them - most people refuse to take part in all the schemes by corporate $whores$ who are most obviously trying to rape them. People are avoiding such systems like the plague.

    I may have owned a Aibo if it didn't have a memory stick and a SONY label.

    The standard 'lock them in and exploit them" method is not working any longer - the more technically inclined are saying "no thank you" and are advising their less knowledgeable brethren the same... you can expect technology in general to completely move in this direction. The internet has enabled people to pursue and communicate their interests to many people, in the process finding people of like mind, and that group is working together for one another - if a company wants to participate in that, they are mostly welcome - but if they choose to go the way of the 'Zap Me' unit as described above, I guarantee they are in for trouble. After all - who are these notorious 'first adopters'*? And how many of those know about the "open source" idea and its advantages? Id bet it is virtually 100%.

    *excepting the people with more money than brains.

  • This would mean that my you and me fixing the machine they then have to rewrite everything to take into account our changes forcing people to rebuy games etc etc.

    I think a clever programmer will come up with a solution. One potential solution that I see is using memory cards like you get with the playstation and such. This could potentially even work with things like the playstation to work around the upgrade limitations of a ROM rather than a cartridge (which could potentially contain updateable chips.) I would think that there would be a way to store some small bugfixes on the little memory cards and have a place at bestbuy you could go plug in your memory card and have them update the bugfixes, then have the CDROM first check for that information before loading the game. I may not be describing it in the best way but I think you can get the picture. Of course, the disadvantage to this would be the same as computer software. We'd get console games that are extremely buggy and don't work well and the companies would rather release them early and make bugfixes later so they can make more money up front.

  • None of the big name console manufacturere make more than a small percentage of the games for their platforms. What they do is charge the games' developers for the SDK[?] [everything2.com], and/or charge them a royalty on games sold.

    What Indrema will be doing, according to the article, is making the SDK available for free, charging developers for a "technical certification", and charging royalties on non-freeware games.

    --

  • definitly vapor-ware... (Score:3)

    by garcia ( 6573 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @08:14AM (#598458)
    they not only don't have titles yet, they haven't chosen a definite video card and no definite CPU...

    They have several "prototype models".. If they are going to be released in Spring 2001, they better get their asses in gear..

    I may be wrong but it just seems to fishy to be real. They are either not going to make their deadline (which is almost a definite) or they aren't going to do it at all.

    Just my worthless .02

  • How will Indrema survive? (Score:3)

    by bswick ( 29721 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @07:12AM (#598459)
    I haven't seen this addressed in depth anywhere, but how does Indrema expect to make it? I'm all for choice and competition but the console market is pretty tight right now. Console makers survive today on game sales and licensing while actually losing money on sales of the systems themselves. Why would a developer want to develop on Indrema? Sega, Sony and the like attract developers by the user base they create. It's a well known fact the PS2 is difficult to develop for with it's 3 graphics processors (difficult to harness the full potential of them all simultaneously that is), but when you are almost guaranteed a user base of 1+ million in a few months you will make money with any Pokemon rip-off you create, no matter how poor the quality might be. I just don't see how Indrema expects to be heard over the shouts and fighting of Sega vs. Sony vs. Microsoft vs. Nintendo.

  • Re:Hacking Devices (Score:3)

    by Foogle ( 35117 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @09:42AM (#598460) Homepage
    Nah, I tried that once... Evidently it's still illegal to booby-trap your consumer products. What the hell is that about?

  • Linux & Open Source are not major factors (Score:3)

    by Junks Jerzey ( 54586 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @07:13AM (#598461)
    The Linux connection is a red herring. Nobody, except a particular group of geeks, cares at all what is beneath the hood of a console, especially in terms of system software. Yeah, Linux is cool and all that, but it needs to take a seat in the far back of the theatre is this case, lest we all start defending really lame games simply because they run on the Indrema.

    The "open" angle of the Indrema is something that is being overhyped. Open is good, yes, but consider how few decent games have been developed for Linux. Linux is the perfect platform for amateur game developers. All the tools--OpenGL, gcc, gdb, various libraries and toolkits--are free. You can get a GeForce 2 based graphics card for $129. You can get a very capable TNT or TNT2 based card for $50-$80. But we're seeing very, very little from indie game groups. Little enough that I wouldn't expect to see *any* independently developed pro-quality games for the Indrema.

  • Re:Won't its hackibility afeect performance? (Score:3)

    by GMontag451 ( 230904 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @08:14AM (#598462) Homepage
    The problem with your hypothesis is that most consumers won't want to hack around with the console. By definition, only the hackers will be hacking up the console.

    Therefore, the game developers will be able to sleep at night because most of the user base will have the standard configuration, and the ones who don't will probably be doing optimization of their own. If the hackers fuck up their console enough that some games don't work, then it's their own damn fault and they shouldn't have played with something they couldn't fix.

  • Won't its hackibility afeect performance? (Score:3)

    by Kiss the Blade ( 238661 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @06:50AM (#598463) Journal
    If you look at the majority of consoles, such as the PSX and dreamcast, you will find that their sealed nature gives programmers an advantage ; they are free to expoit the system without having to worry about hardware variations.

    But this Indrema system sounds quite adaptable, which will hamstring the game develepors attempts to tweak and optomise. Surely an unhackable system would be more sensible from the consumers point of view?

    KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.

  • Re:Games (Score:4)

    by StoryMan ( 130421 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @07:51AM (#598464)
    I suspect more than the titles are vaporware.

    Indrema is supposed to be available in *late-spring* 2001?

    And they're not yet touting their 3 "hottest" titles?

    It doesn't make sense to me. They're touting all the linux goodness -- and that's fine, don't get me wrong -- but linux goodness by itself doesn't make the cheese log a cheese log.

    It's the content that makes everything smacking good and cheesy, and if they're pushing simply linux -- and the ability to "make your own stuff with our SDK" -- well, that's all well and good, but who wants to wait 3 years for some lame half-finished Quake I wannabe? ("Here's my new game done by Gilbert Wannabe III; I haven't yet finished the rendering engine, but I'm releasing it as open source in the hopes that four or five other people across the globe might want to take a look at my spaghetti mess of code and, well, maybe finish out my game. I'm a wanna-be MOD author, but, ya know, college is getting in the way, and my grades are way down, and I ... I just don't have the time to support the site or the game, so, farewell, and thanks for all the memories, and here -- take this -- my code. Maybe someone can figure it out and do something with it.")

    Those Indrema folks, they oughta wake up and smell the gouda.

  • Hacking Devices (Score:5)

    by Greyfox ( 87712 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @07:21AM (#598465) Homepage Journal
    Up until recently I worked at a Satellite TV company that was designing a set-top box which would run Linux. A major concern was that users might rip the hard drives out, download the HD Mpegs to their hard drives, and post those HD episodes of Dharma and Greg on the Internet. Or upgrade to non-company sanctioned hardware. It was explicitly said that they didn't want users to be able to do that.

    So we thought about this convoluted anti-hacking strategy and that one. But you know what? Once you put your hardware on the market, it's in the hands of the enemy. No matter what you think up, some wise ass kid in Sweden will figure out how to break it in a week and a half. And once the solution to the problem hits the net, there may as well be no security whatsoever on the box for all the good your months and months of anti-hacking engineering efforts do.

    Of course, your Dilbert-esque pointy haired bosses aren't going to be able to grasp that, so the anti-hacking measures will continue to be engineered. Personally, I think my idea of planting a thermite charge on the motherboard would have been the best deterrent they could have come up with. Too bad they didn't want to go for that. I guess Swedish wise ass kids' hands getting blown off when they open their boxes is just bad publicity...

  • Community Question (Score:5)

    by michaelsimms ( 141209 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @06:57AM (#598466) Homepage
    At Tux Games [tuxgames.com] we have been debating if we should stock the Indrema and its games. Whilst we are a Linux based games company, the Inderma is a Linux based console for gamers.
    What opinions do people have? Should we stock this for completeness of range and support for the community, or would would people prefer we remain purely a company selling games to use on basic mainstream Linux systems? If you have an opinion please drop an email to comments@tuxgames.com [mailto]

  • ... (Score:5)

    by rice_burners_suck ( 243660 ) on Monday November 27, 2000 @07:31AM (#598467)
    Hi folks,

    I like the part that says "may they see the light." Here's a valid argument that someone could use when arguing about "unhackable" Linux devices: simply recall id Software's games Wolf3D and Doom. Wolf3D was released just like any other game at its time, but something strange happened shortly thereafter: folks started hacking the game and coming up with level editors and stuff. Instead of suing those folks like most game companies would have done at the time, the intelligent authors of the game used this to their advantage and made tons of money from this game. (Kids wanted to modify the game, so they had to get a copy of it.) When Doom and Doom II were released, I think they actually released specs that gave hackers some idea of how the game data was stored. Doom and Doom II were so successfully that for a time, most other games were judged relative to them. Furthermore, id released the source code for Wolf3D and, later, Doom. I highly respect them for that reason -- that is, because they realized that giving someone knowledge doesn't take it away from you. In fact, in most cases, it will help you.

    -NGH

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