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Games Entertainment

Interview With Hideo Kojima, Designer of Metal Gear Solid 2 59

Posted by Hemos from the making-good-games dept.
There's a great interview with Hideo Kojima, the designer of Metal Gear Solid, VP at Konami, and currently working on Metal Gear Solid 2. Very interesting guy - the Renaissnance man description sounds quite apt.
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Interview with Hideo Kojima, Designer of Metal Gear Solid 2 More

Interview with Hideo Kojima, Designer of Metal Gear Solid 2

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  • Still, if you had to bet on a battle between Hideo and Carmack, I'd put my money on Hideo. He just has a lot more talent.

    I wouldn't say that... Carmack's engines are technically revolutionary. Kojima is a general game designer; Carmack's an engine programmer.

    Both are extraordinary programmers.

    And since we're talking about creativity, let's mention American McGee. There's not much talk about Alice in Slashdot, but it seems to be a great game.

    Flavio
  • I couldn't care less about discussing a game that does not exist. I don't understand the need by so many web sites to pump the hell out of a game that has not even been released. The game will never be able to live up to the hype.

    I could also do without the political commentary in a game. I want lethal weapons, damn it! After all, it is only a game.
  • Since the article is kinda vague on game details, I thought I'd toss out a few links with more info on MGS2:

  • Just because a game doesn't force feed players any political propaganda doesn't mean that it's a kiddie game. In fact, I quite enjoy games that make me think such as Myst and Quake III. I just don't think a game should be designed around the creator's right-wing extremist views.

    Not only that, but Mr. Kojima seems to feel the need to voluntarily censor his games for violent content. It may just be me, but I would expect some violence and death to occur in a war game. Mr. Kojima seems to be under the impression that wars are fought with tranquilizer darts and Nerf bats.

  • I think that creativity is just as important as technical expertise. Carmack/id hasn't shown much of that in years.

    I remember playing Doom when I was a high school student that finally begged my parents enough to get a PC as a replacement for our dead C64 more than six years ago. Somewhere around that time, you could play it over the network, too, and you could probably find some mods on your local BBS between sessions of TW:2002.

    As far as I can tell, everything by id from Doom on has been the same FPS with more sophisticated engines (see: Quake) and/or packaging (see: Heretic). Starsiege: Tribes has had team gameplay for years, and Quake is just now getting there. What's the next big project? Wolfenstein 2. Gee, lots of creativity in that choice...

    If you like FPS, that's fine. To me, it's old and tired. I like inventive/innovative games. Since Doom (well, it goes back farther), I can only think of a handful that have really interested me. Warcraft II was so awesome that I still refuse to play Starcraft, and hybrid games like the god/action ActRaiser (SNES) and the chase/cyoa/race game Driver: You Are the Wheelman (various) are excellent examples of how much fun a game can be without support for the latest 3D buzzwords and spending six months' salary on a rig that can handle them.

    --

  • Game programmers are already becoming more and more recognizable by name. Carmack, Romero, Sweeny, Steed, McGee, and basically anyone who worked on Doom are now actual names who people recognize and associate with qualtiy. The general public may not know the name Carmack, but with the age of the average gamer rising every year, it's not unlikely video games will eventually become an accepted art form like film is today. And with them, the programmers will become what I call "programming rock stars".

    If this happens, Metal Gear Solid will be seen as a milestone in videogame art and Hideo Kojima as the electronic Buster Keaton. Metal Gear Solid already has better plot, character development and action then a good percentage of movies today.

    American McGee's Alice has levels that rival any film I've seen this year. The gameplay is mediocre at best, but the backgrounds rival anything I've seen on the big screen in recent memory. Old Man Murray [oldmanmurray.com] called it "the first pretentious art house video game". The description's not far off.

    Other notable games that have more atmosphere then most Hollywood prouction include Silent Hill (which is creepier then your grandfather naked), Street Fighter (which has developed an excellent backstory), and Resident Evil (B-movie atmosphere, but atmosphere none the less).

    In any case, it should be interesting to see Romero handle the e-paparazzi.

    -Jeff

  • I believe Thief and especially Thief 2 (I'm sure of the latter) made money. Thief 2 continued to make money after they closed LGL. LGL closed largely due to Eidos's involvment with Ion Storm (LGL also had a couple stinkers).

    So, yes, that type of game can make money.
  • I most certainly am not a karma whore. I'm just trying to relay a little historic information to my fellow Slashdot readers. Is that so wrong?

    Speaking of Karma [spiritweb.org], did you know that the entymology of the word karma is Sanskrit. Not only that, but the word itself only dates back to 1827. The word whore, as you can imagine, dates back much earlier than that, however.

    The yin and yang of Penguins. The Linux Pimp [thelinuxpimp.com]

  • From the interview:

    KOJIMA: Before PlayStation, there was Super FamiCon [Super Family Computer], which took CD-ROMs. Then, for the first time, you could play games and music on the same machine, and the sound you could use with games was much better. You didn't have those games with the funny "ping ping pong ping" noises anymore. This was a big step for game software; it was really great. Next, the image quality got a lot better, more like movies. That was a big step, too. Then there was PlayStation, introducing polygons, and the capacity for image expression improved tremendously. That was another really big step for the industry.

    Eh? I know that must have been an error in translation somewhere, but I just get the feeling that Mr. Kojima was one of the lucky few who ever got to see (and maybe start developing for) either Sony's or Philips' CD-ROM drives for the good ole Super Fami.

    < tofuhead >

  • more often than you've been called a pretentious, self-involved fuckhead?
  • are you trolling the trolls? wait, does that mean i just fed you? fuck.

  • If we could use the sense of smell, we could put in the smell of the sea or something. I think that we will be able to do this in ten or twenty years.

    We will be able to do this tomorrow. Literally. DigiScents [digiscents.com] has prototypes (and perhaps production devices by now) for the iSmell product [digiscents.com]. They also have a "ScentTracker" (You Amigans should love that name) 'for the creation of "scent scores" for movies, music, and interactive games', a player, a mixer (for making smells), and more. You want more hilarity? They're creating the web's first scent-enabled portal, at www.snortal.com. Yes, that's right. Snortal.

    I did not attend the showing of the iSmell device (at GDC last year) but I did talk quite a bit with a couple of their developers, and inhaled some of the rising aroma of the little glass jars, such as ozone, gunfire, damp earth, swamp, and the ubiquitous banana. The smells were all spot on.

    As you probably know, your sense of smell [thinkquest.org] is a fairly complicated thing, but there are only so many chemicals that we can detect [edc.com].

    Amusingly enough, there was another company at GDC the same year with a prototype second generation smell-o-vision. I didn't talk to them much, though; They weren't nearly accessible.

  • You dont have a right to be free from another person's point of view -- even if its expressed in a video game. You DO have a right not to buy that particual game if offends you.
  • Old Man Murray called it "the first pretentious art house video game". The description's not far off.

    You've obviously never played Xenogears [mancer.net].

    Yu Suzuki

  • Where did I say that games like Quake 3 are "kiddie games"?? I like playing mindless shoot-em-ups a lot of the time as well. And if you think being anti-war, anti-nuke is "right-wing extremist" then I seriously doubt you know anything about politics.
  • And with them, the programmers will become what I call "programming rock stars".

    Where have you been? This concept is at least 18 years old, right down to the phrase "rock stars." This is what Electronic Arts was created to do. See how long it lasted?

    Interestingly, of all the people you mentioned, only two are programmers (Sweeney and Carmack). Mr. Kojima is not a programmer. He is part designer, part manager (more the latter than the former). Games are created by large teams of 10 to 200 people, with a rough average of 25. Maybe 30% of those people are programmers. Can you name *anyone* doing programming for Metal Gear Solid 2? Or should the manager take all the credit?
  • I had trouble playing Deus Ex as a sneaker. You have no feedback about how visible you are, and you ALWAYS make noise as you walk (unless you find a Run Silent aug). Also, the AI really wasn't created with sneaking in mind, since when one enemy discovers you EVERYBODY on the level suddenly knows right where you are. Maybe Deus Ex 2 will get this part right.

  • More money is being thrown at this game than most, so let's hope that they can afford to replace the thirteen year-old boy who seems to have written the storyline and script to MGS 1.

    I love the gameplay of MGS, but the whole thing for me was spoiled by the lame attempt at creating a "cinematic" experience. After succeeding in solving some puzzle, or defeating a Boss, you are "rewarded" with endless minutes of dull exposition. There is about 8 hours of top-notch gameplay, padded out with what seems like 3 days of cut scenes and dialogue.

    I'm all in favour of bringing games to a new level, especially now that the technology exists to create the sort of realism which was not previously possible. If games are to become more cinematic, however, more attention will have to be paid to the writing. I think mant games developers believe that just having things like a storyline, characters and dialogue adds another level to their game. My feeling is that if you're not going to do these things right, don't do them at all.

  • Maybe "video game rock stars" would have been a more appropriate phrase. You're right Kojima didn't do the actual programming, but he did bring the whole thing together. Can anybody name who actually operated the cameras on Hitchcock's films?

    Actually, I'm sure someone can. But you get the point.

    -Jeff

  • Maybe "video game rock stars" would have been a more appropriate phrase. You're right Kojima didn't do the actual programming, but he did bring the whole thing together. Can anybody name who actually operated the cameras on Hitchcock's films? Actually, I'm sure someone can. But you get the point.

    You don't understand video game development. There's much more in common with pumping out commodity items, like toys and WB sitcoms, than there is with creating art. Mr. Kojima is a _manager_. Most days he probably works on budgets, looks at sales projections, runs meetings, makes sure the project is sticking to milestones, etc. This is business, not idealistically created art.
  • Hmm, I've never thought of programming as a profession you get into for the women (or men in some cases).

    Becoming programming celebrities is a pretty rare event in any case, and there are better roads to take if you want fame.

    It would be like getting a government job (as a clerk or something) so you can become president and get all of the women (interns).
  • Ok, then YOU write the graphics engine for Quake 4.

  • Yeah, I know. The NEC SuperGrafx and Sega Mega Drive CD/Victor WonderMega were all available pre-PSX too. But it was just something that caught my eye, and got me nostalgic for when I used to read EGM and Die Hard Gaming Fan, itching for when Sony would beef up my Super NES into a CD-ROM unit that was still being called "Playstation."

    < tofuhead >

  • Dude, walk while crouching. You move faster than, walking (not running) standing up, and you make no noise. And, everybody comes after you only if an alarm sees you. I think it's the third person view that makes the sneaking hard, though I hope they keep that around in the next game.

  • Is it me, or have /. trolls lost their creativity. Trolling used to be an art form...I'd halfway through reading a comment before I realized it was a troll. The best trolls weren't obvious.

    The latest formula seems to be:

    1) Read heading
    2) Consider popular /. opinion
    3) Say something obviously incendiary, that will get plenty of replies.
    4) Hilarity ensues.

    *sigh* Ah, well. Just remember kiddies...don't feed the trolls.

    --Just Another Pimp A$$ Perl Hacker

  • Re:Another interview with Hideo Kojima: (Score:3)

    by piku ( 161975 ) on Wednesday December 13, 2000 @04:19PM (#561120) Homepage
    Not quite. Besides the Metal Gear series, he made 2 other games. And I bet you that you can't name one of them.

    He got lucky with Metal Gear Solid. If the second one is good, and if he actually makes other games I may give him credit. Right now he is just a producer that has one unbelievable game on his record.

    If you are trying to compare Carmacks technical expertise to Hideo's, Hideo is going to get his ass whooped. ANYONE is going to get their ass whooped. Nobody codes better than Carmack. His game design is questionable, but nobody codes better than him. HE nearly made Quake 3, one of the most technically impressive games, still. How many other games have one programmer credits?

    And you know what? I'm not even going to post anon.
  • So all game developers should just pander to the lowest common denominator?? There's plenty of mindless games out there if you want them. Maybe some people prefer games that are a bit more sophisticated.
  • In the first Metal Gear Solid, there was a pretty political anti-nuke storyline which accompanied the game play. Most of the dialogue took place via radio contact with various characters, and you could "call back" to continue the dialogue, or just switch off your radio and keep moving. But the central storyline (Solid vs Liquid, the evolution of foxhound, Gray Fox, FoxDie virus, genetic engineering, etc) was told in such a way that you could take or leave the anti-nuke dialogue without hurting the central story. Listening was optional, and you could ignore the anti-nuke dialogue without missing out on portions of the plot. In short, he included a morality play in Metal Gear Solid, but he put it in the back-story so that people who weren't interested didn't have to sit through it.

    In my opinion, what Kojima is actually doing is writing characters into the story that promote a particular value system. As he's a game designer, whether he agrees with these politics or not is not really central to the discussion. His technique (politics in the backstory) adds depth to the game, and as long as he does it in a tasteful and optional way like he did in the first Metal Gear Solid, I see nothing wrong with it. A crucial question to the Metal Gear story is the question of good and evil, and whether a trained killer like Solid Snake is any better than the terrorists he fights against. Kojima and the rest of the Metal Gear/Konami team did an excellent job of leaving the answer to that question as an exercise for the gamer; but the back-story about the nuclear/terrorist threat and the corruption of black-ops units gives the player something to think about beyond where his next ammo clip or ration is coming from.

    At any rate, if what you're saying is that you don't agree with Kojima's politics, I guess I can respect that. But if what you're asking of Kojima is "less backstory, more game mechanics", then you're probably playing the wrong kind of game. There are plenty of games which center around killing without discussing the ethics of war and violence. For example, just about every FPS and fighter on the market. The Metal Gear franchise has always had an extensive story surrounding the gameplay, and the story has always been a crucial part of what made the game memorable. The anti-war slant is new with Metal Gear Solid (the earlier games were more about betrayal), but the dynamic is the same--as Solid Snake progresses with his espionage, a story about right and wrong unfolds around him.

    Besides, if you want tactical espionage without a plot line, you can always play the Metal Gear VR Missions, which are considerably more challenging than the original Metal Gear Solid, and don't really go into a political back-story.

  • howis it s trol to want a stratagy game. I used to love nobunaga's ambition on the old nintendo system. How about something like that only more complex? oH look he's sick of quak knock offs, he must be a troll. Or could it be that /. just makes any desenting view into troll.
  • TNL just posted 25 new screens of the game.

    http://the-nextlevel.com/previews/ps2/mgs2/index.s html [the-nextlevel.com]
  • And for those interested, here's an interview with the director of the other game that Kojima is producing, Z.O.E.

    Noriaki Okamura [ign.com] interview at ps2.ign.com.

    Z.O.E. is coming out a lot earlier, and I think it looks better, myself.

  • Just the inertia from its predecessor will make it sell well. That, added to the fact the game will be excellent shall probably make a winner out of MGS2.

    I'm also a Looking Glass Studios fan, having been absolutely fascinated by System Shock I (which is IMHO, THE best game ever made).

    I believe that Looking Glass' games were too modern for their time. That, coupled with very little marketing was the cause for bad sales.

    The common guy usually prefers shooting at everything that moves to thinking. It's extremely fortunate that most people are getting tired of mindless shooting games, so the market for MGS grows.

    Flavio
  • I never used the words people person together once in that whole thing. I just said he is the most talented coder there is.
  • But it's implicit, or at least it ought to be. Programming is an exercise in language use, and language skills correlate with social skills. If he's a crappy people person, then he probably writes crappy code too.

    Oh right. That's why progammers are the most socially adept people you know, right?

  • Deus Ex is another cool sneak around type game. Also has lots of role playing elements and a really great storyline.

  • I read through the article and it seems the qualifications for being a renaissance man include developing games for more than one platform and reviewing movies.

    weak weak weak.

    I read it expecting to hear that he had written a few books, a couple of musical scores, painted etc.
  • Games Programmers, that's who. Just like we now talk of Bradd Pitt and Alfred Hitchcock in Hushed tones, soon we shall be talking of hotshot young games programmers in the same reverential way.

    This has already been tried in the past, and it hasn't worked. Thing is, there can be 20 to 200 people working on one project. And the people who you usually hear about, like John Romero and Dave Perry, don't actually do programming. They're more managers than anything. John Carmack is one of the few exceptions to this rule.
  • Not quite. Besides the Metal Gear series, he made 2 other games. And I bet you that you can't name one of them.

    Snatcher and Policenauts were the games, and the reason not many people are aware of them is because one was released on a system that never enjoyed much popularity (Snatcher, SegaCD), and the other was never even released in the US (Policenauts, Japanese Playstation). Both were critically acclaimed games however. I can't speak for Policenauts (which was a continuation of the Snatcher universe), but I've played Snatcher from beginning to end and must say it's a fine game. It plays more like an interactive comic book than a real game, with a storyline that borrows heavily from the movie Bladerunner. A quick search on google turned up this site [gameart.com] for anyone interested in finding out more.

    I do agree that Carmack is among the best programmers out there, but Kojima definitely has an edge up at directing; Carmack makes great game engines, Kojima makes great cinematic games.

  • "Forklifts have universal appeal. Everyone, from old grandmothers to middle-aged businessman to your little brother can understand what to do with a forklift: race it through the streets of 1980s Yokohama!"

    I disagree. Forklifts are best used as Tactical Thermonuclear Devices [happypuppy.com], as Ambrosia Software understands so well.
  • The first pretentious art house video game? Moondust, for God's sake. On the Commodore 64.
  • I don't see them merging.. I see them clashing.
    I watched an interesting show about the gaming industry, and how they just about refuse to do any of their music/acting work in Hollywood.

    I think that its more likely that more and more animated/CG like Titan AE will come out, making Hollywood compete with itself. The gaming industry is the "New Rich", with Hollywood being the "Old Rich", which usually means they will be outcasts from each other.
  • How many other games have one programmer credits?

    I don't know, but Quake III certainly isn't one of them. John Cash has been programming for id for years, but he left. Brian Hook was doing programming for id during Q3 development, but he quit. I don't remember if he's officially on the credits, but I'm pretty sure Cash was. Zoid has been doing contract for them for a while too.

    The Doom 3 FAQ on doomworld.com lists the following programmers working at id right now:

    John Carmack
    Jim Dose
    Jan Paul van Waveren
    Robert Duffy
    Graeme Devine

    And IMHO, id hasn't made a game as fun overall as MGS since Doom 2. (though quake and quake III had thier moments.)

    -Erik
  • Yawn. MGS is a dull game, on a dull platform. Consoles are suited for racing games and fighting games, period. The lack of any real way to save your game means that console games can't really differentiate characters and can't save any progress in a usefull way.

    MGS was a neat concept, but was poorly executed compared to what could be done on a PC with a decent engine.

    Calling the designer a genius is only slightly less ridiculous than calling the designer of Zelda 64 a genius. They're both stuck in a console world making cheap throw-away games.
  • It's all about Silent Hill 2 for me. . .
  • Quick correction... Carmack didn't write the game logic for anything in the Quake series. He might have done part of it for Q1, but Q2 and Q3 other people were doing it.

    Not to say he couldn't, the game logic is the easiest stuff in those games, but just to give credit where credit is due...

    And you're right, Carmack didn't *invent* any of the 3D graphics tools, he "invented" ways to do them fast enough on machines of the day, to use them in realtime.

    And sure, Michael Abrash helped with some of it, but it was Carmack who put in the very long days, trying all the different ways he could think of, actually testing various methods.

  • This was true in the early 80's, I dobut we will ever get back there anymore.

  • neat! i'll have to read this article. i've been called a renaissance man [umn.edu] a number of times.

    --

  • It is well known that the Computer games industry now outgrosses the Film Industry.

    Soon, the two industries shall merge, and actors shall be simulated on computers. Who shall our heroes be then?

    Games Programmers, that's who. Just like we now talk of Bradd Pitt and Alfred Hitchcock in Hushed tones, soon we shall be talking of hotshot young games programmers in the same reverential way.

    What impact will this have on the industry as a whole? The best programmers will all be working in the frivolous games industry for the adulation and respect (not to mention women, of course), so won't Linux and the mainstream applications that are our flesh and blood suffer?

    KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.

  • I thought that there are probably people who don't like blood or violence, but would like to see what it's like to play as a spy.

    Hear, hear. He sounds like an interesting guy.

  • metal gear solid is definitely one of those original games that everyone loves. all those come from people like this guy who are interesting, creative geniuses. he is in company with people like Shigeru Miyamoto of Nintendo.

  • Another interview with Hideo Kojima: (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 13, 2000 @03:44PM (#561145)
    Another interview with Hideo Kojima can be found here. [gamecritics.com].

    You can see how he's been influenced by other programmers. It's the way he codes -- the projects he works on. He succeeds where Romero failed with Daikatana, though Hideo isn't quite where Steve Woston was in his prime. Still, if you had to bet on a battle between Hideo and Carmack, I'd put my money on Hideo. He just has a lot more talent.
  • I've had it up to here with your Metal Gear Solid nonsense. As you yourself said, no one wants to play a game about blood and shooting -- and no one wants to play a game about spies, either. If gaming is to ever become succesful, we need to end the gaming world's obsession with violence and work on perfecting the forklift simulation.

    Forklifts have universal appeal. Everyone, from old grandmothers to middle-aged businessman to your little brother can understand what to do with a forklift: race it through the streets of 1980s Yokohama!

    Also, the idea of using smells in video games is simply preposterous. Research has shown that the most desired feature of the children of the 21st century is not smells, but taste. How could you not to want to join Ryo Hazuki in experiencing the cool, refreshing taste of Coca-Cola? Or of licking your new UFO catcher figures just to see if you can get high off the paint?

    If Hideo Kojima has his way, we'll all be doomed to spend the rest of our gaming lives playing trite old spy sims and mecha fighters. These kind of games have been done over and over. But where, may I ask, are all the forklift racers? Or how about the cat-raising simulations? And what happened to the adjusting-a-sign-to-make-sure-it's-level games of the mid-90s? Only Shenmue can provide you with these experiences.

    Yu Suzuki

  • MGS1 has anti-nuke and anti-war in it also, but it mainly focused on giving information about it rather than saying it was a horrible thing. And, the plot would be around anti-war, etc. so it has a plot of course.
  • I was really looking forward to some riots in the streets after this election fiasco... now I'll be lucky to get violence in my ps/2 games!!! What is this world coming to?? We should be using those extra polygons for super-detailed bloody gore.
  • The full title of the game is Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty. The Sons of Liberty was a secret organization formed in the American colonies to protest the Stamp Act of 1765. They were organized by merchants, businessmen, lawyers, journalists, and others most affected by the act.

    The Stamp Act was a law passed by the British Parliament requiring publications and legal documents in the American colonies to bear a tax stamp. The act was vehemently denounced, and organizations formed to resist it. The Stamp Act Congress, Oct. 1765, adopted the Declaration of Rights and Grievances, which declared the tax unconstitutional because the colonists were not represented in Parliament. The Stamp Act was repealed in 1766.

    Penguins love history too. The Linux Pimp [thelinuxpimp.com]

  • It seems to me that more games are geared on secrecy and stealth nowadays. I love games in the style of System Shock, Half-Life and Metal Gear Solid, so I can only applaud this tendency.

    With the Tomb Raider epoch fading to a less shooting, more thinking age, I can only feel that perhaps we are making progress in the "game ideology" scenery.

    Actually, that sounded quite naive and it's more of what I hope will happen. Games like Starcraft and Command & Conquer are classified as strategy but actually have very little thinking connected to their gameplay.

    Now Kojima tells us about anti-warfare messages, which is also very good. How could someone transmit an intelligent message while condoning pseudo-logical ideology driven irrational violence?

    MGS2 seems to indicate the beginning of very sophisticated games based on thought and feeling, now that technology permits it.

    Now if we only had William Gibson's neural interfaces and be able to smell in another world...

    Flavio

  • Sounds like Thief (Score:3)

    by Quikah ( 14419 ) on Wednesday December 13, 2000 @04:09PM (#561151)
    This is a very similar model that Thief employed some 2 years ago. You could play it as a hack and slash type game, but if you upped the difficulty level to Hard or above you lost the game if you killed anybody. You had to sneak around and knock people out with a blackjack.

    Thief didn't sell all that well, despite getting rave reviews and being a great game. The company that made it, Looking Glass Studios, went bankrupt just this year shortly after releasing a sequel.

    So I wonder if this is a sellable idea. Thief didn't have nearly the eye candy that MGS2 has, so that might effect sales. Sounds like an interesting game.




  • http://www.megatokyo.com/index.php3?date=2000-09-2 7


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