Gamespy on Linux Gaming 114
Grond writes "Gamespy has an editorial about the future of Linux gaming. A few interesting solutions to the sales problem are discussed." This is a topic that seems to come up about every month or two. I think there are a lot of people that would leave Windows behind entirely if a few more games were released in non-Windows versions. But as long as you have Windows, the game manufacturers know that they need not put the extra effort into releasing a non-Windows version. See "Chicken and Egg".
They have a point (Score:1)
But it's not just actually finding a copy of the game under Linux and running it, I think it's also keeping the drivers updated and patches and the other assorted things that reduce the fun of PC gaming. Not that these things would necessarily be harder under Linux - but just that they're bad enough with windows, and people assume that they're going to have the same problems, except worse, under a non-Windows OS.
Re:Or even better... (Score:1)
Re:stop using windows. (Score:1)
Re:Direct3D is to blame (Score:3)
If the Linux community could get over themselves and write a version of Direct3D for Linux this problem could be solved quite easily. The docs can be found on this website [microsoft.com].
Re:Alternative PC gaming... (Score:2)
Re:DirectX (Score:1)
Programming for Direct3D is not easy. To go short, it is poorly documented, requires much more code to accomplish something than in OpenGL, and is tough to learn. As an added bonus, it's not open, it's not as scalable as OpenGL, and it's not any faster than OpenGL (if you have proper OpenGL drivers, that is).
Or to quote John Carmack, "It (D3DIM) inflicts great pain and suffering on the programmers using it, without returning any significant advantages."
Here's a link [csun.edu] to an article discussing some of these points.
To stay more ontopic, if Microsoft hadn't "embraced&extended" OpenGL into Direct3D, games would probably be written for OpenGL, and therefore be much easier to port, since OpenGL is used on many, many platforms, because it's the oldest, most mature 3D API, that's also very portable, powerful and scalable.
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Re:The Origin of the Negro Species (Score:1)
Blame Linux, not the makers... (Score:2)
This kind of effort is too much trouble for Linux gamers. Because games keep up with technology that advances at an insane rate, new drivers are often needed, so doing the previously mentioned driver mess gets old really fast. In Windows I can toss video and sound drivers around like crazy, to the point of using different drivers for different games. Changing the drivers is thirty seconds of effort and a minute of reboot. Beats the hell out of the Linux options.
All of this also makes support a nightmare for games companies. Epic only released Unreal Tournament for Linux online, because supporting Linux for that would have been too costly.
What we really need to fix this is a standard distro games are geared to, with a good apt-get method for up/downgrading drivers with up to date drivers to work with. Make support simple. Make setting it up simple. Give the game companies something else to support, and they will come in great numbers.
Re:DirectX (Score:1)
xbox? wait and see... (Score:2)
The fact is that Microsoft has had lots of failures and limited successes. So far, Xbox looks to me like it's going to flop. I see little about it that is appealing, and Microsoft's tendency of copying too much from their desktops when moving to other platforms really hurts them and makes their products unattractive. But maybe it will succeed. We'll have to wait and see. But assuming that they have won this market because they announced yet another grand strategy seems pretty silly given their record.
Re:I kicked Xan's butt: 1st impression of Linux ga (Score:1)
As for the games I have:
SimCity 3000
Myth2
Soldier of Fortune
Quake 3(with Team Arena)
Heretic 2
Eric's Ultimate Solitaire
My friend got me Mechwarrior 4(by Microsoft) for X-mas, so I fix that by getting him Lin4Win(by Mandrakesoft). =)He didn't install Lin4Win and I didn't install MW4, I figure I could keep it for the D3D they are adding in the WINE project.
I figure if we the people don't show our support for games on Linux then we will never get them. Most of the people including my friend hop on net and download the game that they want if they don't feel like paying for it. The internet is full with cracks and games if you know where to look.
Linux will make a great gaming platform. I could list the things...
1. No rebooting
2. No defragment tools for hardrive
3. Very tweekable and toonable.
I like these things when it comes to gaming in Linux because not only I could upgrade my kernel but also my X11 and Nvidia 3D drivers as well tweeking my system to the max. I can't wait for that wait when I could drive to BestBuy and pick up a copy of a good game. Into then I will keep order games off of Loki's [lokigames.com] website.
Re:DOS to Windows, Windows to Linux (Score:2)
How do you know they weren't right? Nobody develops for DOS anymore, so we can't really compare those versions side by side.
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Re:Linux Games Fail Becuase of Sales. (Score:1)
I'm sure as drivers get better more people will consider Linux for their gaming needs. I always look for the most FPS I can get out of my card. If I know Windows is giving me more, that's where I'll be.
Let's not forget to mention that I seen a few stores selling Quake 3 for $20 more than the Windows version.
Re:Linux gaming (Score:2)
1)There are many, many different kernel versions to develop for. It's completely unreasonable for a developer to require a specific kernel version for someone to have in order to play their game.
2)Libraries. glibc 2.0, 2.2, etc... I mean, really. Game developers do not have the time to deal with things like this - the debugging and such would take phenominally longer.
3) X sucks. Especially XFree86 (which is all I've used myself, but it sucks, and I can't imagine a commercial implimentation sucking nearly as much). It's bloated, it's memory hungry, and it leaks like a ho. That, and it's poorly suited for 3d environmental aspects - it's intended for drawing window decorations and terminals, not 3d vectors and splines.
And besides that, it's simply not a good platform because people don't use it. They're in this for money, after all. That means less people to develop for. As far as Loki is concerned, they've barely made jack.
Please go back to your little cave, little man. You remind me of the scary, technologically stupid people in my painfully dull and pointless IT class, which I wasn't able to get out of due to credit restrictions.
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CAIMLAS
Re:If there are no games for Linux... (Score:1)
Re:Linux is the game (Score:1)
Re:Quake? (Score:1)
I'm sorry to play devil's advocate here, but that's only wishful thinking. The problem is that people buy the Windows version whether or not there is a Linux version available. If you are going to buy it anyway, why would the developer care if you have your way and get to play on Linux? It still costs money to make Linux ports, albeit less than the cost of the original development, even if the code is all that changes. The real world, unfortunately, only cares about cost versus reward, and Linux is fighting a losing battle. Let's work on proving to the businesspeople that control our world that Linux games can be profitable by buying Linux games instead of their Windows counterparts.
~mythr
P.S. I've bought all of the games that Loki has released, and though I'm glad to support Linux gaming, I'm getting REALLY sick of first person shooters. Come on, guys, try working on something that we don't already have too many of!
Re:problem simple. solution hard. (Score:1)
You hit the nail on the head. this really is a battle between Good and Evil, and microsoft is most definately evil.
I hope most windows users come to realize what crap microsoft puts them through, and shuffle off their menial coil.
Live another day, microsofties, join the holy war against the evil stowed in redmond.
What I'd Like to See (Score:1)
There's ONE decent flight sim for Linux, but it's very difficult to set up (I've never succeeded, and I'm a Linuxer of four years). As for sports, there's only a handful of those, and not a single one is what I want, which is golf. We need these sorts of games, and others, for Linux to really become a viable commercial gaming market.
Don't get me wrong -- I love the games we've got. Heroes III, SC3K, Quake III, etc. are all games I play quite often. And I'm going to play Tribes 2 tons when it comes out. But the world needs variety, and I sure wouldn't mind it either. I've got a flight stick that's been collecting dust since I dumped Windows, because there's no flight sims I can play. And I end up playing Mario Golf all the time, because I'm without a decent computer golf game like Jack Nicklaus.
Granted, I'd rather see great games in these categories as open source than as commercial software. But either way, we need them if Linux is to succeed in the gaming market and thus, in the desktop market.
Re:Yes, give me an excuse to switch to Apple ][! (Score:1)
Re:Direct3D is to blame (Score:1)
This used to be the case - early D3D was clearly an attempt to de-throne OpenGL by locking developers into a radically different API. Since then, however, both APIs have evolved dramatically to support modern graphics hardware (e.g. everyone has transitioned to vertex buffers for communicating with the card, multitexturing and texture-combination operations have been standardized, and vertex shaders are coming next).
The beautiful thing is, today Direct3D 8 and OpenGL (with extensions, especially Nvidia's) present very similar interfaces! In fact it would be quite simple to implement both as backends to a single renderer without sacrificing clean design or performance!
BTW you have to thank Nvidia for all this... They are currently driving the development of both D3D and OpenGL, so it's no wonder the interfaces have evolved towards each other.
Re:DOS to Windows, Windows to Linux (Score:1)
When 3D cards and fancy soundcards started shipping the developers finally realized that having an OS there wasn't all that bad, and consequentally the market for different implementations of 3D and Sound hardware exploded.
It's pretty unlikely that some 3rd party DOS driver would outperform Nvidia's OpenGL OGL interface.
Re:stop using windows. (Score:1)
SoLo
Non-Windows versions are prolific (Score:1)
Linux ports of games are not going to make that much difference, what people tied to Windows for games need to do is buy a console. They will soon discover that they no longer need to buy a 200 dollar video card every six months (not to mention processors, RAM and bigger hard disks), and yet the graphics continue to improve with each new game release!
Re:Direct3D is to blame (Score:1)
Yep, it's at http://www.quesa.org/ [quesa.org].
It runs over OpenGL (I think also DirectX, but I could be wrong.)
We only have an OpenGL renderer at the moment, but a Direct3D one may well happen (depending on OpenGL's status on Windows). Since the higher level scene-graph stuff is completely separate from the lower level renderers, you can plug in new renderers without disturbing any of the existing code (and the renderers don't have to be interactive - there's also a raytracing plug-in renderer).
-dair
Re:Quake? (Score:2)
Re:Linux gaming (Score:2)
Also look at zope by digital creations. That is open source and they do make a profit off of it. In fact it is far better now and used by more people then it was when it was closed.
So stop spreading FUD troll. In just about all environments most businesss go out of business for having bad business models. Open Source stuff is no different. Most companies tried to sell on hype rather then a real service and they are dieing. Just like any brick and mortar store that would try the same thing.
Re:problem simple. solution hard. (Score:1)
BTW: There's a solution to the Chicken and Egg problem [howstuffworks.com].
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DOS to Windows, Windows to Linux (Score:2)
Of course we all know how that turned out... Maybe the US government should intervene ;-)
Re:What about Macs (Score:1)
Let me clarify this, since alot of zealots have this wrong.
Mac was the first OEM to sign up for GeForce3.
PC enthusiasts will be able to buy a GeForce3 before Macs come out with them.
PC users will have GeForce3 before Mac users.
Macs will be the first OEM to sell them with a system.
DirectX (Score:5)
Game developers wonder why they should deal with a more difficult API (even though there are some nifty effects that can be obtained--see Quake), when there is only a limited market for games on the Linux platform. Since most people who run Linux are already demonstrating your willingness to dual-boot w/Windows for games, porting games to Linux will not sell many more copies. There is simply no compelling economic reason to port.
Lenny
I kicked Xan's butt: 1st impression of Linux games (Score:1)
But after getting SuSe 7.1 and upgrading to the latest drivers for my GeForce 2, I'm impressed with my first foray into linux gaming and Unreal Tournament.
Installing SuSe 7.1 was about as difficult as installing Windows ME. Upgrading the XFree 4.02 drivers was pretty simple, with a little help from SuSe's Linux Knowledge Portal http://portal.suse.de/en/
It was about as easy to update them as Windows drivers, and just as 'intuitive', which is to say, not at all.
There were a few problems with a couple of the textures, but overall, it looked good and ran fast. Then again, I was used to the hi-res textures I installed for my Windows setup. (I know you can set them up for Linux, in fact, it was available in Linux before most Windows setups, but I didn't want to search up how it was done, and felt I was doing good just to get the regular way running nicely)
But the main point is I installed it, ran the sucker, got hooked and played last night for about six hours, two or three of them trying to kill freakin' Xan in the finale. Tonight I got home from work, and in a mere two hours, finally beat the bastard. I can't remember when I was that excited to beat a game! I never did beat the cheating bastard in my many, many hours of playing under Windows.
I'm thinking it is some kind of omen for linux gaming in general
All my gaming money will now go for Linux games. How can I do this? Well, I've really been wanting to play less games and immerse myself into the linux world, so if I just play Linux games I'm kind of learning Linux, right?
(Quake III on Linux? Not for me. I don't like the game. Plus after just experiencing my first real quake with the Pacific Northwest earthquake earlier this week (While trying to climb Mount St. Helens no less) anything with the name 'Quake' is not gonna sit too well with me.)
Games are only thing stopping me going all-Linux (Score:1)
I run '98 (A legit copy, even, Gah!), and run xwin32. Almost all my computer work is through xwin32. (its a pretty damn neat setup, actually). I only keep Windows around to play games, and to occasionally run photoshop (I need to write photoshop tutorials as well as GIMP, so don't hassle me on that one.)
Unforunately, all my forays into Linux gaming have shown that the Linux version of the game is slow, klunky, and occasionally buggier than the windows version. I've purchased two LInux games so far, and I wont again for a little time until that particular market stabailises, and decent graphics accelleration happens for Linux.
I know full well that that isn't Linux's fault, but the graphics cards manufacturers fault for either not supplying drivers at the same time as they do for Windows, or releasing the specs for their cards. But... I'm not going to put up with slow games just because of this.
So... I'll just sit here... waiting for the revolution to come
A question about Linux shareware... (Score:2)
this is just an open question, I look forward to all replies. How willing are you to pay for shareware games? If a company released ep.1 of a game for free, with eps 2 and 3 purchasable as shareware for $20 or $30, would you go for it?
This was the situation years ago in the dos games market, and it worked out pretty well. We got all manner of good games, like Commander Keen and Wolfenstein 3D.. but would the same rules apply in the Linux games market?
Furthermore, would you register closed-source games? Would you expect to receive source upon registering? For most purposes (thinking from a game-developer point of view now), keeping the source locked up doesn't really matter much, cause the value of the game is in the data- the artwork and levels the creators have built. The most you could do with the source would be to build cheats into the game, and if you've paid for the levels that's pretty much cool with us. Would you pay for games that weren't GPLd?
(We're not going to release any of our games under the GPL, although we don't mind releasing the source...)
Thanks much,
Steve
"embrace and extend"? not! (Score:2)
There was never an open standard to corrupt.
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Re:"embrace and extend"? not! (Score:1)
Martee
The trouble with OpenGL (Score:5)
Direct3D on the other hand, is a thin layer over 3D hardware. Microsoft, as usual, is very pragmatic. If some video-card company comes out with a crazy feature like an 8 Dimentional Voxel based chip(or more realisitically a ParticleEngine(tm) chip), it'll get incorporated into D3D, and Microsoft will write a software version for cards that don't. It doesn't matter that the technology will be dead in six months.
OpenGL, on the other hand, has been criticized because they're slow to add extentions. But the OpenGL additude is that it does basically everything it's supposed to anyway. Some crazy 8D Voxels or particle engines have nothing to do with Polygon rendering. True or not, it prevents you from using all the cool new tricks on those $400 dollar videocards.
problem simple. solution hard. (Score:3)
as you say, it's chicken and egg. they want the platform to be more viable for gaming (3d audio, better sound/video support out of the box) before they will even download a game demo.
myself, i've spent no money whatsover on MS products since they fucked my brother's company back in
i try to spend $100 a year on linux or linux products. last year i bought q3, which is great, but i had to surf the web, do upgrades, etc. to get it to work. i also bought mythII which is okay
i just had a look at lokigames.com, and they have FOURTEEN titles available for linux...the equation is really simple, folks...if you don't buy linux products, linux will die. take that one to heart.
if linux dies, you will be playing rent-a-app from MS in just a few years...for the rest of your lives. you might want to take action to prevent that scenario.
no, i don't work for loki and am not in the gaming industry.
Making games for Linux doesn't make sense (Score:1)
Re:Yes, give me an excuse to switch to Linux! (Score:2)
Linux Games Fail Becuase of Sales. (Score:2)
Re:Linux gaming (Score:1)
Barring the Everquest model, how can these principles be applied to make money off of games?
Maybe 1-900-HELP-ME numbers, for people too silly to search for "walkthrough foo"?
Re:stop using windows. (Score:1)
Re:If there are no games for Linux... (Score:2)
Actually, I might be inclined to argue the exact opposite, in that the games that you need to have a desktop system for have up until now been networked shooters and RTS's. I don't know anyone who claims that a shooter works will on a platform, and the XBox isn't shipping with a mouse (amongst other things) AFAIK. Frankly, up until now networking has been an issue, and the lack of a rich control set is the other. Also, the relative nastiness of televisions as monitors is another detractor from certain kinds of games.
But, those games that are good on platforms are usually much better than the port to a PC. The value of a dedicated machine. I think in the end the XBox is going to flop hard.
Re:Linux is the game (Score:1)
"Sure, if game writers started making their games available for linux i might try them (not buy them though)
I'm not saying you are like this, but a lot of open source people seem to be of the philosophy that software that costs money is evil. EVERYTHING should be free. This is, of course, absolute and total bullshit. But that doesn't matter to them.
So, why would you try and make games for an OS that is:
1) Mostly populated by programmers, not gamers.
2) Has a rep as being a server OS, not a desktop OS.
3) Used by people who don't like paying for software. And prolly wouldn't pay for the games even if they did come out for linux.
Doesn't sound like a very hard decision to me. Just don't make games for it. It's not worth it.
This of course can change if:
1) Non-programmers/hackers/syadmins start using linux.
2) We develop a rep as a desktop OS via gnome/kde
3) Actually buy the comercially available linux software.
Justin Dubs
Re:One of the problems with Linux gamming is... (Score:1)
One of them I sent personally.
I suggest you reconfigure your mail server.
Re:stop using windows. (Score:1)
I buy games, why don't you? (Score:1)
ergh. (Score:1)
It's simple maths. Developers aren't going to convince publishers to give them money to develop a linux version, especially if they want other features in the game that that money could give them. Why ask for an extra 2 months salary for a linux version when you can ask for an extra months salary for more levels/added polish.
This is probably asking too much for Slashdot readers to take with an unbiased mind (and without flaming) but you need to have a shift in mindset. Why demand every publisher/developer make a linux version. Instead, all of that effort could be put into making D3D work under Wine, thereby making EVERY windows game run under Linux.
I know I'd be running linux as my primary OS if I could run any game I choose under linux, instead of having to get linux-specific versions. Instead, it's been relegated to my firewall and for mucking around with, which is a real shame.
Re:Linux gaming (Score:1)
Re:Linux gaming (Score:1)
Re:Linux gaming (Score:1)
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CAIMLAS
stop using windows. (Score:3)
Re:stop using windows. (Score:1)
Promoting Linux - Help out gamers! (Score:4)
Well as for promoting Linux, we're trying.
I'm a member of the Linux Users of Victoria [luv.asn.au] (here in Australia) and our Games Sig [luv.asn.au] does all it can to help people run games on their Linux platform. From helping people simply install Linux, helping with driver issues and configuration, general information about games and hardware, and of course, fragging each other silly in LANs.
As it is, we're running a LAN soon called Blast Radius 3 [dual-enforcers.net] that is catering specifically to gaming under Linux. We're allowing Windows and Mac users as well, but the idea is to showcase Linux as a Gamers Platform, and give them a taste of all the things we can do under Linux.
So do your part, Linux gamers. Organise a special interest group specifically for Games at your User Group. Start organising Tech Nights to help people get their systems up and running, informal and then formal LANs, and help other people catch the fever that is Linux Gaming.
Linux gaming (Score:1)
Re:Yeah Right... (Score:1)
So from my point of view he's just a one track mind who belives no one can play games and be into the techie side of computers too.
Re:SMAC (Score:1)
This brings up another issue, I just gave up and bought SMAC for Windows for $10US at Office Depot while the Linux version is still priced at $50.00. Games have such a short shelf life that by the time Loki gets them ported the Windows version is already in the bargin bins.
Unreadable page (Score:1)
Direct3D is to blame (Score:4)
By binding Direct3D so tightly to the Win32 API, they make porting the appliation to a non-Windows API much more difficult.
And the same goes with Macintosh computers - Apple doesn't have its own proprietary graphics API; they use OpenGL. And, just about any game you see in OpenGL appears on a Mac in no time at all. Loki can port the same app to Linux without much trouble either.
For cross-platform game development, we have to start seeing more use of OpenGL, rather than D3D.
Linux is the game (Score:2)
I do, however, play games like minesweeper clones, nethack, etc...non-graphics intensive games that are fun and work in linux.
Sure, if game writers started making their games available for linux i might try them (not buy them though), but if they don't...i have no problem with that either.
Re:DirectX (Score:1)
Re:Direct3D is to blame (Score:1)
It runs over OpenGL (I think also DirectX, but I could be wrong.).
Thanks,
Andrew Pinski
Part of the problem... (Score:2)
...might be that I don't have to spend much on a PS2 or N64 to get a decent gaming experience. But if I want a good Lose32 gaming box, I have to plunk down some hefty cash for a video card, cash for plenty of RAM, cash for cache (sorry)...
With my Linux box, however, I can simply fire up KJumpingCube and lose just as many hours of time, for much less money. Holy code that game is so addicting. Between that and FoulEggs I might never leave the keyboard again.
Q3 a money-loser? (Score:2)
This is the second or third editorial I've seen that's cited Quake3 on linux as being a "failure". I'm honestly curious about this: I was unable to find the slashdot link that discussed it, but I recall that Quake 3 turned a profit.
By definition, profit is making more money than you spend, so I don't really see how q3 failed. True, it wasn't a huge or impressive profit, but it keeps you in business, yes?
From what I've heard, TuxGames is profiting as well; if everything's making money, why all the negative press about linux games being unprofitable?
Re:Quake? (Score:2)
Re:If there are no games for Linux... (Score:1)
Re:Quake? (Score:2)
I don't know about you, but _I'm_ buying Tribes 2 for Linux. Even though I really have had a difficult time getting hardware acceleration supported on my G400. I'll buy it as soon as it hits the shelves and figure out how to make hardware acceleration work later.
Re:Or even better... (Score:1)
Realize that Windows caught on in the first place because unix is difficult to use (relative to the user, of course)... linux was designed to be CLONE of *nix.
Not a clone of Windows.
It's not the games, it's the hardware... (Score:1)
Re:DirectX (Score:2)
I don't think that DirectX is exactly "embrace and extend", which is usually reserved for their tendency to add proprietary extensions to existing standards (e.g. IE extensions for HTML). DirectX is more of their even more classic developer lock-in efforts. Microsoft has worked very hard to make it easy to develop for Windows, and to make it so that projects developed using MS development tools are not easy to port to other systems. Of course developers who become dependent on those tools also have a hard time switching to other systems, too. DirectX is just one more example of the whole MSDN phenomenon, and not really "embrace and extend".
Yes, give me an excuse to switch to Linux! (Score:2)
> I think there are a lot of people that would leave Windows behind entirely if a few more games were released in non-Windows versions.
I agree completely but let's not discount M$ Office. I switched to Linux a couple years ago and was pleasantly surprised to learn that ICQ, Quake, e-mail, and IRC had equal or superior clients using Linux. However I was man-handled into switching back to Windoze because I rely on an Access-97 database on a daily basis.
Very frustrating, Linux is 95% of the way to being the perfect end-user operating system, but the last hurdle is unsurmountable due to proprietary software...
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Re:Linux Games Fail Becuase of Sales. (Score:1)
But that leaves the rest of us who do actually go out and buy the linux game and pay the high price as well as very high shipping to get the game. I have almost every single title by Loki and pre-ordered Shogo, Sin. I also purchased Quake III for Windows since it was almost 2(?) months before the native Linux version came out.
I *do* believe Linux can become a superior platform for gaming , but like you said unless we decide to speak with our wallets its a battle we will lose.
My advice for all the people who scream for Linux games: Go out and buy one, instead of whining about not enough games being ported. If companies see a revenue from the Linux market, we'll see more games.
The number of the beast
Re:A question about Linux shareware... (Score:2)
Actually, I don't think it worked that well. Most shareware games weren't very good, with a few exceptions. Actually 2 exceptions: Doom and Wolfenstein. Can't think of any others.
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Don't use windows (Score:2)
Re:Don't use windows (Score:2)
Personally, I don't play a lot of games anymore (Score:2)
I actually like to use Linux because it's a free alternative to Windows, which does almost everything Windows does, and in some cases does things better..
If Linux becomes successful in the gaming market, there will be thousands and thousands of people coming on board.. and I will no longer be 1337!!
I guess I'll have to install a different OS then.. :)
One of the problems with Linux gamming is... (Score:2)
Why? Because Loki hasn't shipped ANY new games in months and won't say why. Tuxgames.com won't answer emails and every item I have order from them arives beat up.
I have bought every linux game published except for SoF.
Re:The trouble with OpenGL (Score:4)
Who is they? The OpenGL ARB? Or the card vendor?
Hopefully the following quote from Carmack's plan file might shed some light:
"DX8 tries to pretend that pixel shaders live on hardware that is a lot
more general than the reality.
Nvidia's OpenGL extensions expose things much more the way they
actually are: the existing register combiners functionality extended to
eight stages with a couple tweaks, and the texture lookup engine is
configurable to interact between textures in a list of specific ways."
(22/2/01)
Nvidia already *HAS* it's own OpenGL extensions that expose the pixel shader functionality of the GF3. Previously, when 3Dfx (sigh) first launched the Voodoo2, it also offered it's vendor specific OpenGL extension for multi-texturing( using both texture units on the card namely. )
Re:Games are only thing stopping me going all-Linu (Score:2)
Re: your comment...
Unforunately, all my forays into Linux gaming have shown that the Linux version of the game is slow, klunky, and occasionally buggier than the windows version. I've purchased two Linux games so far, and I wont again for a little time until that particular market stabailises, and decent graphics accelleration happens for Linux.
What card are you having the particular problem with, and what basic setup do you have? A lot of the video drivers had lots of issues, and X4 and new driver architechures have fixed a lot of this.
Stock-standard distributions that were released 9-12 months ago are just not going to have the stuff that works well, but then again, how many times on Windows do you need to install new video drivers, run Windows Update, or install new versions of graphics API's (DirectX)?
I've got a Nvidia GeForce DDR (32Mb) and on my K6/2-550 I used to get better (on average) frame rates than I used to get under Windows. Parsec just blows me away, with TWICE the frame rate as I get under the Windows version. Quake3Arena and Unreal Tournament run a lot more stable under Linux than they have ever done under Windows on my machine. YMMV, of course.
There are lots of people willing to help you get your setup working, so check out your local User Group and see what they can do for you. You might be pleasantly suprised.
Blast Radius 3 - http://br3.dual-enforcers.net/ [dual-enforcers.net] - Australian LAN showcasing Linux
Re:Yes, give me an excuse to switch to Linux! (Score:1)
If you really must use Microsoft Access (or any other non-DirectX product), you could always do so using VMWare Express [vmware.com]. While it's slow, it still gives me the "advantages" of Windows (using Access for example), without the disadvantages (rebooting after MS Access crashes).
On my AMD K6-II 500MHz box, the VMware machine runs at speed that I'd expect from a 200MHz Pentium class. Everything else apart from Windows-only stuff, I run native under Linux (licq, Netscape, and friends).
VMWare does not support DirectX, so you can't run most Microsoft Windows games - or any other product that uses DirectX such as Wizards of The Coast's "Dungeons and Dragons Character Generator".
Re:Yes, give me an excuse to switch to Linux! (Score:1)
MySQL has it's places. More often than not they're for ultra-speedy databases that don't need transaction support. PostgreSQL can't really compete with Access in a Windows-dominated world.
In case you're wondering, yes, I've used Access. I've used MySQL. I've used PostgreSQL. I've used Oracle. And I've even used old versions of FoxPro. They all have their places. Access is in no way "outclassed by its free software counterparts."
Direct3D, 'Evil' or simply 'evil'? You decide (Score:1)
That would certainly stir things up in the gaming community. The ability to play all Direct3D games in Linux would certainly allow some users to switch to Linux entirely.
Personally, I dual boot Linux and win2k but if I could play games in Linux, I would switch entirely. One can only wonder what one would do with Linux using 100% of a 30 gig hard drive.
Linux could be used better as a Server (Score:4)
Linux could however be used for multiplayer games for them to run on a rock solid, stable and scalable server. I just dont see it making a niche for itself on the desktop market.
Re:DirectX (Score:2)
Re:Direct3D is to blame (Score:2)
Apple does has its own proprietary graphics API. For 3D graphics, it was QuickDraw3D. The difference is that when it became clear that using it was one of the reasons no games were coming to the Mac, Apple bought a company which had ported OpenGL to the Mac and started distributing it far and wide. If you want, you can write a game using QuickDraw 3D, but I don't know anyone who does any more.
-jon
Re:A question about Linux shareware... (Score:2)
(the best one tho, is the arcade game WILLOWS)
Well, actually a lot of other great sidescrollers came to the PC in the 80's, but the hardware was too shabby to run them. Golden Axe. Double Dragon.
I guess there's no point developing too many sidescrollers for today's hardware tho. Their scope is too limited - I was once bored to death playing too many sidescrollers on emulators. I'm not saying they're not fun. But it is difficult to make the style of gameplay standout from the other sidescrollers.
Half-Life (was: Linux could be better as a server) (Score:1)
If there are no games for Linux... (Score:4)
I mean, how many people didn't think twice about getting a PlayStation or N64 just to play games? Did you think that getting one was betraying Linux in some way?
I'm no MS supporter, but XBox is going to change almost everything in less than a year. The game market for the Mac and Linux is going to dry up, because you can target Win32 and get XBox as well. That's going to be hard to resist, esp. if the XBox is as cheap as everyone expects.
-jon
FYI: D3D to OpenGL is possible... (Score:2)
Just for additional background, Michael Vance (Linux HG2's lead coder) had this to say about the process:
Promoting Linux (Score:3)
Games for Linux would certainly give that added push, but I don't see it happenning very fast. First, the companies that write, sell and profit from computer games need an incentive to write for them.... from their perspective, Linux is about "free" and "open." The reality is, that I'd be willing to pay for software (games or applications for an operating system that was free, easy to install, very secure, and extremely user-friendly.
The above ain't Linux. Yet.
With the development of user-friendly software like Eazel [eazel.com] and increased focus on the installation interfaces of Linux, more and more Windows users will be willing to make the switch. Especially if Microsoft makes the drastic changes it's rumoured to be planning, such as yearly subscription, elimination of DOS commands/command prompts, etc.
I've installed Linux several times over the last few years, and with each new install, it just gets easier and less painful. There was a time when I really liked wading through how-tos and doing trial and error steps to get my video card set just right, but these days I'm too busy for that crap. I want to install it and occasionally update it. I'm starting to understand something I always criticized newbies for... most folks want to have a tool they can use like a car. My wife's as good a driver as I am (don't let her know I concede that point, though), but she can't change the oil. It drives her nuts that I'd want to rather than pay $40 at Jiffy Lube.
Microsoft won't always be king of the hill, and I can't wait to see them put on a level playing field with an equal or superior operating system. But I have to acknowledge that they got there because they had some insight as to what folks wanted on their computers... I was one of the few geeks that was happy with a dos prompt... like all of the other geeks, I dropped to dos for YEARS (and still) to perform quick operations... Most people don't want to even see that black screen... it scares them!
I don't play a lot of games, but I would love to have Tie-vs-Xwing and Jedi on Linux! If so, Linux would be booted much more than Win... In fact, beyond my need to use Office 2k, I wouldn't need Win for anything!
Cheers
cfeagans
Re:FYI: D3D to OpenGL is possible... (Score:2)
"Loki Software's Linux port of Heavy Gear II port"
should read:
"Loki Software's Linux port of Heavy Gear II"
*goes to get more caffeine*
Alternative PC gaming... (Score:1)
Re:Quake? (Score:1)
I'm willing to pay for Linux games. I'm not so sure the Open Source model can effectively compensate for the kind of effort that goes into making games work.
Missing genres (Score:2)
Unfortunately, not just a few. I would like more games spanning more genres. Not just first-person shooting (Quake) or strategy (FreeCiv).
Where are the adventure games, like Escape from Monkey Island (not just MUSHes and MOOs)? What about flight simulators? No one can hack a decent flight sim that has only some of the features of Fly!/MS Flight Simulator/Jane's?
Even a game like The Sims would be wonderful, which defies classification. Right now, all we have are games that developers wantto develop, like FreeCiv. That's fine, but if you want more gamers to come to the platform, those same developers are going to have to branch into new areas.
The Q3 mistake (Score:2)
Until the Linux game market matures, there's not going to be much demand for standalone Linux versions of games. In the meantime they should ship the Linux versions with the Windows versions. Linux users will buy a game if it is supported under Linux, but since most people still keep a Windows partition, a lot of them will not buy a Linux version given the choice between getting the Windows-only version and the Linux-only version. It's fantastic when companies offer Linux versions of their games, but the market forces are such that there's still not much of an audience for standalone, Linux-only versions of games.
Mac User Perspective: (Score:2)
There are disadvantages to the Mac platform that Linux doesn't have, sure, but Macs still suffer from a "chicken and egg" perspective--not enough software, or so its said, so fewer people buy Macs, so less software is made. Mostly, all FUD--I've never had a really hard time finding software that I need, or want, including games.
Another interesting thing, is that, even with OpenGL supported on the Mac, some games ported from D3D to OpenGL--are only released as a Linux version, not also as a Mac version. Do developers really think that there are more game-buying (like with real money) Linux users than there are game-buying Mac users?
Quake? (Score:4)
I mean, if even Quake3 doesn't sell for crap on linux, how can you blame companies for not making the plunge?
Tribes 2 is the next major title coming up, it's one of the biggest games coming down the pike, and they are going to have a near simultaneous Linux release.
Personally, I'd love to see it do extremely well, but I have a feeling, as others probably share, that Linux users don't buy games for linux, and Tribes2 is going to fail on Linux, and leave future developers with little chance of making that jump.
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Re:A question about Linux shareware... (Score:2)
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Re:Xbox and PC aren't compatible (Score:2)