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Rewriting The Past With Zelda 122

The Hegemon writes: "Someone hacked the rom for the original Zelda on NES. He created an entirely new game called Zelda Outlands or ZeldaC. You can see it at this site. I am sure most of us remember how great the original was. I think it would be interesting to play it over in an entirely different way." Now I need to download and play with this, but projects like this are tres cool, I think. Taking a legacy piece of technology and creating something new with it, in a framework that's familar to people.
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Rewriting The Past With Zelda

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    2. tres? Three? What does 'tres' mean? it's not in the dictionary, even as a slang word. Don't use slang which the /. community (your audience) won't understand.

    Just a spelling mistake. He meant très. Go to school, grammar nazi.

    If the SlashDuh editors were reduced to using words their readers understood, the only news post would be headlined "See Spot Run".

  • by Anonymous Coward
    was I able to get first post.
  • The original Legend Of Zelda was the game that got me into programming, or more specifically, game programming. The game itself was exciting and gave me a great feeling of vastness and it's engine (not that I called it that when I was seven) seemed the perfect way to describe a world.

    I immediately started using my shallow C64 BASIC knowledge to imitate the gameplay, and by the time I was eight, I had a little graphic walking around a screen.

    That's as far as it went back then, but even to this day, the key game design document that I want to create one day is strongly influenced by Zelda.

    As a coincidence, my Zelda 1 cartridge that I ordered from E-Bay happened to arrive to my house this morning.

    Pardon this self indulgence of reminsence... :)

  • As someone else mentioned earlier, there have been many such patches for years now, and as far as I know anyone stupid enough to distribute a complete patched rom has been shut down while there's nothing Nintendo legal ppl can do if it's JUST a patch the author is distributing.

    Most notable of these patches are the video game equivalent to 'fan-subbing', that is people who painstakingly create patches for roms to games that were only released in japan that translates in-game text to usually english.

    On a side note, there's a project over at which the author has painstakingly recreated the original Zelda from scratch. If memory serves me correctly it's for Windows only, closed source freeware, and annoyingly the server seems to be down at the moment :' but they did it without using anything from Nintendo so the only thing they could get dinged for woud be trademark infringement for use of the term 'Zelda'. What's more you can create your own quests in it. When I played around with it a few months back I found it really quite nifty. Try looking in google for 'zelda classic' and you should be able to find a site with it, probably along with scads of user created quests as there are quite a few of em out there.
  • It's not a hack of the rom, the guy wrote a game engine specifically to recreate the original Zelda with.
  • True for some games, but not Zelda.

    I played Zelda just a little while ago, on my still-functional NES system. I greatly enjoyed it, not for nostalgia, but because it was _fun_. Zelda is a great game, probably one of the all-time best.

    Some games are shallow and tedious. Some games show the perfection of game design that John Romero couldn't pull off in a dozen lifetimes. For those games, it doesn't matter how old they are.
  • I would imagine, it all comes down to the market life of a game. My favorite games are rpg games, so I've played a lot. Zelda (actually, more of a quest game) is short. Yes, it would be lovely to have a completely different story line for a rpg game of today (Suikoden, FFx, Fallout, etc). But these modern games are huge -- very long relative to the days of zelda. I imagine that it would be very unprofitable to do that sort of thing.

    After all, if someone gets their fill on Fallout, then Fallout II has no need to exist.

    Damn, I loved Zelda (I still have a functional NES and Cartridge).


  • très (and not tres) is a French word meaning, among other thing, very.

  • by BRock97 ( 17460 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @05:14AM (#299450) Homepage
    Since the site is slashdotted, I have some request for this hacked version:
    • That forbidden forest was too scary. Please change it to a forbidden HAPPY forest with some little furry animals running around.
    • Along with the forest, all that right right right, left left left stuff has to go. Please change it to up up down down left right left right. Got to keep it in line with other games. Thanks.
    • Give Link a spunky side kick that helps him fight crime. Pref a girl, but whatever you think is right. Heck, make it an animal and give it two tails. Worked for other games....
    • Give it that open source appeal. Make the old man look like Linus, the bosses look like goons from Apple, Oracle and Microsoft, and then the final boss have the heads of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison.
    • Finally, give link a dart gun and the ability to look around corners. That way, Link would only 'stun' his enemies. With all those Dodongos and Octoroks running around, it would be like a great espionage game with Link as some spy type.
    I don't think this stuff is too much to ask. Please get on this right away.

    Bryan R.
  • I had the same problem. I thought the magic wand might work on them, but in order to get the magic wand, you need to beat one of them.

    Very interested in a hint.


  • blade runner did something similar, it radomized character's involvement in the story
  • > Also, if we are letting Link sneak around, lets have a big 1-shot kill sniper rifle

    Sorry, but that has been found to infringe on Amazon's 1-click patent technology.

  • Or D&D for that matter. The whole concept of enemy=weapon is frustrating and boring. You can beat Phantom Shadow Beast Bongo Bongo in Orcarina of Time using your most basic weapon, but it would take forever. Better to use the terrasword or whatever it was called.
  • Yeah, that did give it nice replay. Also, the ability to skip entire parts and let crystal go on ahead made a lot of situations change. I ended the game as a replicant :)
  • The NES was not a Z-80, it was a 6502, the Sega Master System/Game Gear and Nintendo Game Boy systems were Z-80 based, but not the NES.
  • Now zelda may not be a hard-core "man's" rpg, but it has a loyal fan base, which it deserves. I think the Zelda series of games (specifically Zelda3 on snes, Zelda4 on (colour)gameboy and the two n64 games Ocarina Of Time and Majora's Mask, are definitely some of the best games ever written for any system. It's the kind of thing you can play over and over, and if you're not too fanatical it can entertain you for months as you explore, play, and progress through the worlds.

    Majora's mask doesn't feel as large as the last few games, but it's definitely fun, and a lot harder than the others- and I know a lot of slashdotters out there are looking forward to whatever nintendo serves us up on the gamecube.

    Ever since I first played a zelda of my own instead of at friends' houses, I wanted to be able to edit Zelda. Cheers to the fellow with the insight, time, and patience to achieve what I'll never get to do! Job well done!

  • Umm, Well I've got news for you. I still play all the old games. I'm playing this new Zelda right now (where's that stupid level 7?) and have a game of Chrono Cross going on the side. So perhaps you're opinion doesn't hold for everyone.
  • Oh, you want to get a hacked up version of Final Fantasy I? Get the translated ROM for Final Fantasy IIj. It basically reuses 90% of the graphics from FF1. The plot's a little weak, but it's far better than the first. Watch out, though, the monsters are tough as nails, and you have to spend a lot of time "leveling up" to get anywhere. The advancement system was pretty neat, though. No levels, just boosting attributes through use. They don't pull punches either. If you aren't supposed to be in an area in the game yet, the monsters there WILL kill you very quickly.

    Seriously, though, try the game out, and you'll see instantly why I think it seems like a hacked remake. The graphics are just dead on.
  • Probably not Toys'R'Us - Funcoland, most likely... they deal in used stuff.
  • While we are getting changes, I want to see rain! Any game can be made immeasurably better by having 3d rain particles falling down.

    Rain might be nice, but what it really needs is lens flare! Afterall, since any halfway decent photographer will go to great lengths to avoid lens flare, by including it in a game it will make the game sequences look more like film. Or something.

    Of course, all of this is just to fill time until the first person shooter and Zelda vs. Metroid vs. X-Men fighting game are complete.

  • Anyone heard the Ska-ish Zelda music covers by Mr. Bungle? If not - find them. they are freaking great.

    Not meaning to start any flamewars, but if you ask me, the metroid series was more fun.

  • Did anyone play the Star Control games? I have many, many great memories of playing the second game; it had a wonderful story and the "action" parts were just FUN. It was simple, but it was definitely the type you play with your neighbor for hours.

    Anyway, after the orginial designers left after the second, the third game sucked. So, a fan created project has gotten together to make a new sequel to the second game, and I'm very excited about seeing it.

    If you liked Star Control, help out to return it to its old glory!

    Star Control: Timewarp []
  • because its fair use to have and modify roms for games you own and distribute them to other owners, but freeloaders who never owned the real cart can't do it. I've got my NES and original gold cart, how about you?
  • It is actually impossible for Nintendo to make any money off of the old Zelda cart now. The only way to acquire it is to buy it used, but that only gives cash to the store/person/ebay dealer that you purchase it from. Nintendo makes money when retailers purchase new carts to sell, retailers haven't stocked the first Zelda since oh... 1992 or so.

    So while there might be an intellectual piracy violation or something, you aren't actually hurting Nintendo like you would if you played a ROM of a current N64 game that they might actually sell. The only way this could hurt Nintendo is if playing some hacked 8-bit rom somehow decreased your desire to play a real sequel. This is unlikely, as the only people interested in this type of thing are the nerdy rabid fans who will be purchasing anything with triforces and Dodongos.
  • My CS class was debating on how to do this kind of hack for a while. Maybe throw in some curse words, and dumb lines like "you just pimped the princess." If you can guess where in the game that fits, you get a cookie.

  • 11 April 2001

    In a recent event today, yet another site has been brought to it's knees by a /. DDoS attack. The current victim, a small site called:, run by Christopher M. Park, who appears to be a vintage Nintendo game hobbyist. This site may still be available through Google's Cache [].

    Appearently, the /. DDoS attack is platform independent. It seems to attack sites without predjudice, but seems to be focused toward geeky content.

    Other sites recelty attacked include: Spindletop LLC, a company, which was created to raise money for the []Spindl3top [] non-profit, which plans on building high-end computers for charity; 1U Half Width Server Project [], a site project that includes instructions on building a 1/2 width 1U rackmountable server.

    Should Slashdot be held responsible for these attacks? Should they be made to pay for the bandwidth costs to these sites?

    microsoft, it's what's for dinner
  • 2001-04-09 19:15:01 Hacker creates entirely new game based on original 8-bit Zelda (articles,games) (rejected)

    Oh well, just kidding, no hard feelings. Kudos to the guy who did this - I'm amazed at the raw power of reverse engineering here. I mean, you can't even buy an NES any more. I guess the idea of a "platform" transcends hardware in some important ways.

    Oh, and note to future commercial enterprises: if you are thinking to yourself "Hey, if we just make our file formats/protocols/etc. obscure binary-only, nobody will have enough time on their hands to figure them out, right?" Wrong.

  • Bombs are quite effective against the Gleeok (multi-headed dragon in Level 4). I actually used to use bombs on them often when I was low on hearts and wanted to stay away from it.
  • >Beating wizrobes with bombs when you don't have the wand is quite frustrating, isn't it?

    Well, yes, but that's actually part of the trick - you can sneak into the 6th dungeon fairly early on and snatch the wand, bypassing most of the combat. That can be used like a sword on just about everything, except those darn Darknut knight guys... those just about require bombs. Beating a room full of blue Darknuts with just the bombs on your back can be incredibly frustrating! Still, it can be done.

    Unfortunately, it's not so easy to steal the wand in the second quest - there are other items you have to retrieve first, as I recall. But you can still get to it a lot earlier than you'd think.

    >It makes me happy to see that somebody else wasted their precious youth
    >in the same way that I did.

    Hear hear! :-)
  • >While I applaud the fact that you exploring the playability of your
    >games to the extreme, HOW MUCH FREE TIME DO YOU REALLY HAVE?

    Let's see, I think that was around the time of my sophomore year in college. So the answer then was - quite a bit. :-)
  • by BobGregg ( 89162 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @06:21AM (#299472) Homepage
    My brothers and I played the original Zelda to death. One thing we loved was the flexibility - you could skip certain items or visit the dungeons out of order to grab special weapons, and that allowed you to play the game in a somewhat different order or fashion than the designer intended.

    At one point we decided to see if we could play through the game without getting the final sword. Turns out you can, the enemies just take 2X hits. Harder, but not impossible. Then we decided to see if we could do it without the intermediate sword either. Again, you can, but everything takes 4X hits.

    However, at some point it occurred to me that maybe, you could play through the game without any sword *at all*. It seemed impossible, since the first thing you do on the first screen of the game is pick up the first (wooden) sword. Also, you start with no other items, weapons or money. However, there are certain places where you can find coins, and certain items you can buy to get started...

    In short, it turns out you *can* play through the entire game, in *both* quests, without ever getting a sword at all. It requires quite a bit of creativity and figuring out alternate weapons to use against different monsters, but in every instance it is possible to find an alternate way to pass each game obstacle. The only thing you can't do is defeat Ganon at the end of the game, as that really does require a sword (though any sword, so even the initial wooden sword works there). But you can go through the entire game, right up to the last room, without any sword at all.

    I was impressed that there was so much flexibility built into the game - in most games, creature X can only be defeated by weapon Y, there's only one path to each item, one possible order you can do things in, etc. Zelda, in contrast, was *very* well designed to allow alternate solutions to just about everything, right up to the extreme of never using a primary weapon at all.

    So if anyone is in search of a challenge (i.e. buggered bored :-), here's one from the annals of Classic Games: "beat" Zelda (that is, get to the last room with Ganon) without ever picking up a sword.

  • Great post and kewl name. Wish I coulda modded you up.
  • Jesus, moderation points in the hands of an asshole today. "Troll" instead of "Funny". Uh huh. May as well mark every Post #1 a troll.
  • Just in case anyone is trying to find its new unslashdotted address, its moved here []. And yes it's really for DOS, not a ROM, it'll even work under Win9x. They've [] got a bunch of other remakes [] too.
  • Wow...

    AC- who ever you are - you have my respect and admiration.

    An actual first post "First Post", that is on topic . I think this is a first :)
  • ...done that. This was on Zophar's Domain a few days ago. I've been playing it for a few days. Definitely harder than the original, by at least a factor of 2. I found level 1 once or twice, enough to get the map for it and my sword, but I'm damned if I can find level one again. >:|
  • wasteland was my favorite game of all time, i was completely addicted and played it so many times over... neuromancer was a really good game too, funniest thing was thta the box said the movie was coming soon... surprised noone has done a new version of wasteland over
  • Amen Brother! Zelda was good, metroid was better :)
  • Toejam and Earl for the sega Genesis did this.

    Random levels, random items.

    One of the best games for the system too.. TONS of fun, humor, and general wackiness

  • and the site has been slashdotted. Anyone going to mirror the site and/or download file?
  • Taking a legacy piece of technology and creating something new with it, in a framework that's familar to people.

    Next chapter: Constructing sentences.


  • Someone needs to hack Wizardry like this, now there's classic RPGing. What's the possibility of burning this to a cart if one wanted too, I think the ROM in it's propritary. Time to open some old nintendo carts and find out. Right now I'm too lazy to look up the chips when I find out and like I was saying I think they are propritary, anyone got the pinouts on em already? Mabye someone should try to get their nintendo running CP/M or UZI or something cool like that, since it's Z-80.
  • I had to add here the one stupid thing I am most proud of from my NES days... Beating SuperMario Bros. 1 with the controller on the ground, playing with my toes. (without warping or loading up on extra guys) Whoop-dee-doo...huh?
  • by DrEldarion ( 114072 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [0791uhcsm]> on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @05:46AM (#299485)
    There's nothing worse than looking forward to a game, beating it, and's over. Talk about your replay value. I wish they would incorporate this idea into more of today's adventure/RPG video games. They did it then...why not now?

    A game came out for the PS2 recently called Shadow of Destiny and I think one of the major things they were aiming for in the game was replayability. The game centers around time travel and they wanted you to go back and play again and again to see how the different choices you make affect everything.

    Very good game, I highly recommend it. It's one of the main reasons I got a PS2 in the first place.

    -- Dr. Eldarion --
  • actually that was not made just for pc, it was actually just an emulator that automatically loaded the zelda rom. its funny that you call it superior and its the same fucking thing hahaha
  • Well, first of all, the game in question is for the NES, not the SNES.

    Second, you can get pretty much any emulator available from Zophar's Domain [].


  • If you could manage to make a generic type cartridge that had an EPROM for the memory instead of just a rom you could most likely create copy games pretty easily. Of course you wouldn't be able to create copies of any of the games that had special hardware in the cartridge, only those that had software on a single rom.

    I know that this is how you make hardware copies of most Atari 2600 games (and I would assume the same applies to Intellivision and CollicoVision games and stuff too)

  • You can't even leagally archive a rom image under American copyright laws because a rom image is considered a durable good. No "backup copy" allowed here. Also I am sure modification of the original product is strictly prohibited under the law in a couple different places

    That aside I think this hack is absolutely great. I love when someone takes something they love and with thier passion for that item create something completely new and wonderful with it. I read about this game about a week ago I think and it looks like a top notch mod. I just wish more game companies supported modification of thier games. I also wish that more companies were more liberal with distribution of out of production games. There were so many things I saw when I was a child that I was never able to get and I would like to get a chance for that now when I have the cash in my pocket.

  • You may want to make it all 3d too. It wont make the game any better, in fact it`ll make it more awkard to navigate, but it`ll boost sales of overpriced 3d cards, which will be out of date in 7 months. Along with your cpu.
  • And where does "fair use" come in? Say I'm an artist who wants to use The Legend of Zelda (tm) as the foundation for a work of satire? The Andy Warhol of video games? In any case, the coder in question can do no harm to Nintendo corporation with his work. In fact, the only market change I foresee is an increase in game sales due to curiosity by players who have only tried the modified version.
  • Perhaps we can hack Mike Tyson's Super Punch-Out into something a little more appropo -- perhaps Mike Tyson's Prison Break-Out?

    Yo soy El Fontosaurus Grande!
  • This gets (+1, Insightful)? Oh well.

    Anyway, to bite the troll that feeds me:

    "If this Zelda stuff would be released under a BSD-style licence, we would have a great time. If GPL will be the choice, well, tough luck. I certainly won't play it anyway!"

    Assuming for one minute that this person isn't a trolling hypocrite, their hatred of the GPL presumably extends as far as not running Linux, so if this hypothetical version is released they indeed "certainly won't play it anyway!"

  • "Wow. You're a moron."

    Says the AC that doesn't get the joke.

    While we are getting changes, I want to see rain! Any game can be made immeasurably better by having 3d rain particles falling down.

    Also, if we are letting Link sneak around, lets have a big 1-shot kill sniper rifle that can take all the monsters out from halfway across the kingdom, that makes games more fun, of course it does.
  • by iainl ( 136759 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @05:04AM (#299495)
    I love the fact that the download is a patch to the rom cart, not the whole thing, so that should at least delay the lawyer onslaught. Nintendo's lawyers are known for being amongst the most ruthless at taking out rom posters, and I wouldn't want to see stuff like this killed.
  • by locutus074 ( 137331 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @06:27AM (#299496)
    Remember... you could hit him with your sword, or boomerang, or whatever, but you couldn't kill him, and some of the old men would shoot fireballs at you? Ever wanted to fight back []?


  • He didn't have to break any encryption to reverse engineer the game, so I don't think DCMA applies (IANAL). He is only distrubuting a patch to the ROM, not a modified ROM, so all the code being distributed by this person is his own. He may have some Copyright issues, but I don't think so (this is similar to fan fiction I think). If you're going to be a troll, at least be subtle

  • Hopefully reasonably on-topic, but I beg your indulgence while I take the opportunity to shamelessly plug a nice port of a classic game to a new platform

    Currently in Beta, and the more testers the merrier, it's...

    Elite for WAP phones. Currently featuring the original Galaxy 1, full trading model, most of the combat, more graphics on the way.

    If you don't have a WAP phone, it's playable thru emulators (I prefer the M3Gate one), links available from the site.

    Full kudos to Modesty and Dan Catt for all the work.

    Try it now, at []

    Warning - can seriously damage your productivity. BUT you can get a great price for slaves at Xexedi while you're waiting for the bus.


  • Oh, sure, NOW I find this out. I played through Chrono Trigger a while back, but lost the ROM in a hard drive reformat. GAR!!!


  • Now I just have to give Nintendo credit on the Metroid thing. Granted you had to beat the game (or at the very least be introduced to Justin Bailey :-) ) to see Samus in all her glory, but having a female lead character in a kick-ass action game all the way back in '85 or so was definitely a Good Thing -- beat Lara Croft to the punch by a good 5 years or so.

    The big question: did I hear correctly that a Metroid sequel is out there, and if so, did they make sure to make Samus a cutie?

  • First off I'd like to congratulate the person who did this; this is a very Good Thing for those into old games like this. Zelda is IMHO the classic of its kind -- great music, great graphics, a lot of fun. I hope to see that "how to hack Zelda" doc soon -- that looks like a great deal of fun. I have actually seen one very good Zelda clone, but you have to be a Mac user to play it. It's called Mantra; I can't quite seem to find a web page for it anymore but it's easy enough to find a download. The music in particular is incredible, even if the plot line becomes nonsensical pretty quickly. The big question: does source exist to such a game somewhere? /Brian
  • I don't consider computerized "RPGs" to be RPGs at all. The name stuck because they were based on pencil-and-paper RPGs like D&D, but the fact is there are no roles being played except by the player. They're turn-based dungeon crawl games, no more, no less. (RPG is catchier, but totally inaccurate.)

  • That shouldn't be too hard. Just create a game that calls up x amount of variables and semi-randomly assigns them properties throughout the next game (location, value, etc.).

    Er... You have played this game for hours on end at the expense of sleep, nutrition and sunlight, until your eyes were numb, your thumbs blistered and the controller terribly worn like the rest of us did, right?

    If you're designing a second quest, I'd expect that you care enough about the game to mentally carve out a challenging and intriguing layout. Something to a quality that a computer in this age could never acomplish. Sure, you don't get infinite replay value but the experience is still *better*. Take for example, Gannon's Revenge [].
  • There was another recent Zelda hack that, amongst other things, allowed you to make your own map. I am not sure if it is played on an emulator or not, however. It goes by the name Zelda Classic, and I think it runs on DOS. Unlike this game, it is an exact duplicate of the original.
  • A long time ago I did the very same thing. Got to Gannon without a sword, and found no way to kill him. Beating wizrobes with bombs when you don't have the wand is quite frustrating, isn't it? But such a good challenge!

    It makes me happy to see that somebody else wasted their precious youth in the same way that I did. Looking back on all my childhood years of nintendo playing, the one thing I am most proud of is going through Zelda without ever getting a sword.
    Well, there are other things from my childhood I'm proud of too..
    It's not like I was some kind of nintendo junkie..
    I did get out sometimes..
    ..when my mom made me..
    I've wasted my life.
  • by Hieronymous Coward ( 165765 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @05:05AM (#299506)
    Zelda was fun, but I doubt it could hold your interest now. No matter how fond your memories of the old games are, playing them now reveals them to be shallow and tedious.

    Interestingly, these same qualities make a few of the old games BETTER than you remeber. Fire up MAME and Robotron, focus on the center of the screen and start counting Brain Waves.
  • Hey thanks for the info
    found zelda on fileplanet!

    -Roy off to find the triforce once again
  • There's nothing worse than looking forward to a game, beating it, and's over. Talk about your replay value. I wish they would incorporate this idea into more of today's adventure/RPG video games. They did it then...why not now?

    Try System Shock2 and Deus Ex. You can play the game 3 different ways in SS2, and an infinite amount on Deux Ex (there is like 5 different ways to solve each obstical in the game!).
  • Really?!?! No way!
    I bet nobody else who posted knew that.
    You're so smart... I wish I could be like you.

    "Now that's sarcasm" - Homer Simpson
  • That's your opinion; but many other's vary. RPG, IMHO, *IS* the right name. You take on a role as a player in the game, exploring a virtual world. Just because paper based RPG were a lot more creative (with a real DM continually controlling the game), doesn't make computer based RPG's not RPG's; the fact that you may have have like the paper based system more is immaterial.
  • I saw this yesterday somewhere, and thought I'd like to try it out, but is down! Anyone know where myself and other interested Slashdotters could get a snes emulator (for Linux of course?)

  • by Teflon Coating ( 177969 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @05:10AM (#299512)
    Here is the mirror for it, courtesy of google. Click here for zelda mirror []
  • (not, this is not a flame)

    You see this as flexibility. I see this as primative. Each enemy, instead of requiring very specific weapons, just had HP, and each weapon just did a certain amount of damage. A few enemies were immune to certain weapons, but just a few.

    I personally interpret this as the games today are trying to be too complicated- if the games before were so fun with extremely primative engines, why do we get such complicated engines now?

  • Zelda was fun, but I doubt it could hold your interest now. No matter how fond your memories of the old games are, playing them now reveals them to be shallow and tedious.

    I have a commodore 64 emulator for the sole purpose of playing Wasteland. I have played it dozens of times, and no, the plot does not change. The graphics are primitive, the sound is virtually non-existent, and the maps are on a square grid.

    However, the full-party, turn-based combat is just too good for me to not play. This makes the game exciting even when I know the exact location of the best loot and NPC's. Then there are voluntary limitations: I'll try to play a whole game with no ranged weapons, for instance.

    Bingo Foo


  • Yeah, I know on both counts. I got the Interplay 10th anniversary CD solely for wasteland, but there were enough subtle differences in the keyboard and graphics that I had to resort to the C64 emulated version. Plus, with the 4-disk switching on C64, you can play a game where you keep building the characters while you use fresh map disks so all of the goodies come back :)

    I also bought Fallout, and there are a ton of things I like about that game, but as I mentioned in my original post, the party combat system kicks serious ass. I even tried X-COM because somebody told me that it had a similar combat system. No dice. Wasteland will always be my favorite.

    Bingo Foo


  • While reading this I thought back to those guys in Japan who figured out how to beat Resident Evil and Resident Evil 2 using only the knife.

    While I applaud the fact that you exploring the playability of your games to the extreme, HOW MUCH FREE TIME DO YOU REALLY HAVE???

  • Uhh, his site seems kinda slow. Here is a link to the zip file I got off his server. Here is the md5, someone care to verify it? 30065afb82be8e1f713426b82d31be42
  • Didn't anyone else notice that this is much like sampling, which is so prevalent in the music industry? The creative ethic is rather similar -- take a piece of work, use the elements you like, and create a whole different product.

    It's not new, of course. People have been re-writing song lyrics for (literally) ages, and even Dead White Male classical composers used popular song as a basis for some works.
  • The archive has the patch in .exe and .ips versions. If you have a Mac, you'll need an IPS patcher app to apply the patch. I found one at: []

    and it seems to work fine for me.


  • by wd123 ( 209211 ) <> on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @05:33AM (#299520) Homepage
    I think the two (RPG) games I've found with the best replay value are Chrono Trigger (SNES, find a ROM, it's all over I'm sure) and Chrono Cross (PSX).

    Chrono Trigger was probably, barring Final Fantasy 4 (2 in the US) the best RPG for the SNES, hell, it might even be better. Wicked plot, great character development, and all-around FUN gameplay. The premise is basically that you need to travel through time in order to stop an immense destructive force that will (in the future) completely obliterate life as we know it on the planet. The time-travel is well done (unlike in Zelda: Ocarina), in that things you do in the past tend to have a reasonable impact on the future. For instance, if you get a treasure in 600 A.D. you cannot get it in 1000 A.D. even if it would be available, however you can get it in 1000 A.D. *and* 600 A.D. To top it off, the game has over 20 endings to find. Once you beat it normally (which can be done in one of a few ways), you get to play in what is called a 'New Game+'. This is exactly like starting a new game, except you keep all of your items and equipment (except for key items needed to move the plot along), and you keep all your stats at the end of the last game. Plus, you get to fight the final boss effectively whenever you want, and by doing so at different points during the story, you get new endings (whcih reflect the situation of the story at the time). It's a LOT of fun to tear through the beginning of the game with high-level guys too.

    Chrono Cross is a lot like Chrono Trigger, except you move around between dimensions instead of between time. It has a 'New Game+' and multiple endings as well. Not only that, it features 44 characters, lots of side-quests, and a branching storyline. You need to play through the game at least three times to get all the characters, and to go through the different branches.

    If you haven't played the Chrono series, and you're looking for good replay, give them a go. I *STRONGLY* recommend playing Chrono Trigger first, since Chrono Cross has lots of references to it, and is much more enjoyable for having played CT.
    chip norkus(rl); white_dragon('net');
    mercenary albino programmer for hire
  • I tried this, but I couldn't seem to find anything that hurt the multi-headed dragon in level 4... only the sword seemed to work. How did you do it??? Hint please!
  • And Germans happen to enjoy Zelda as well, whereas the French seem to enjoy taunting brittish people from atop high towers and throwing animals at them from the safety of the fortress walls. Now go away, or I will taunt you a second time! In meinen Himmel gibt es keinin Gott.
  • Did niether of you play Super Metroid for SNES? It was pretty schweeet! They incorporated a large number of new specials, weapons, and settings from the original, and going with the same alternate ending thing, after you beat the game, you would see Samus wearing less clothing at the end depending on how quickly you beat it. Luckily for the ESRP guyz out there, and too bad for the hardcore Samus fans, it was impossible to see anything other than a bikini on her. And yes, she was a hottie. Maybe someone will decide to crack the ROM for this game and fix that little error, eh?
  • I actually preferred FF6 (or 3 th US) to FF4 personally. I also prefer Chrono Trigger to Chrono Cross. Perhaps it's the fact that Akira Toriyama did such a great job on the characters in Trigger. It would have been quite a different game if they had hired him back at Squaresoft for the sequel.
  • Hell, this story is the main reason i'm going to Games4Less on my lunch break to pick up an NES and a copy of Zelda.. among a few other titles I had until now forgotten about. Sure, Nintendo's not going to get any royalties off of this sale, but then again, is this much different than if I went and got an emulator and a ROM?

  • Old NES games by Nintendo always had a habit of containing extras after you win like that.

    Super Mario Bros let you play again with all "Goombas" turned into those beetle things. Metriod let you play again without your suit. To get the best ending to Kid Icarus, you had to play more than once (but you kept all of your items). There are probably more things like this.

    Zelda, however, took the cake. It included an *entirely new* game. I mean, some games add a secret dungeon, or a secret this or a secret that. But to be given an entirely new game? Now that's cool.

    Nowadays, games are generally more complex such that making another full quest would add significant time to the development. I mean, if I had to add another quest to (warning: shameless plug) Infinity [], I'd probably jump off of a bridge.

    Oh well, can't forget the good old days!

  • by 3G ( 220614 )
    The thing I think I enjoyed most about the original Zelda, was the fact that once you beat the game, the ENTIRE game started again. All items, secrets, EVERYTHING was in a different place.

    That shouldn't be too hard. Just create a game that calls up x amount of variables and semi-randomly assigns them properties throughout the next game (location, value, etc.). On top of that, build another collection of items/functions that are randomly included. So everytime you finish the game, you're presented with not only some re-shuffled elements, but also new elements added (and some old removed)!

    Of course, the real genius would be to figure out how to do this and make the game retain its logic. But I'm surprised nothing like this has been devised yet - or has it??

  • Zelda was fun, but I doubt it could hold your interest now. No matter how fond your memories of the old games are, playing them now reveals them to be shallow and tedious.

    Not for me!

    I don't own any console system, and haven't since the 8-bit NES and the original non-color Gameboy.

    My PC is also several years old, and incapable of playing most of the games sold today.

    Thus my technological growth as a gamer has been stunted somewhere in the mid-to-late-90s.

    However, my tastes have not been spoiled by recent games. I can still appreciate older games as if they were the coolest things I've ever played, because they really are.

    I'm not sure if you should envy me or pity me.

  • by falzer ( 224563 )
    I played Star Control 2 again recently. I don't think I realized how damn funny the dialogue was when I first played it. That is one fun game.
  • a friend of mine hacked super mario world as well as super mario all-star's ROMs, "kafuka world" and "super makafuka", respectively. He didnt just change the game bitmaps, he redesigned like every level... the games are hard as HELL. if anyone wants a copy of the roms, just email me.

    MOVE 'SIG'.
  • by big_groo ( 237634 ) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (sivoorg)> on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @04:59AM (#299535) Homepage
    The thing I think I enjoyed most about the original Zelda, was the fact that once you beat the game, the ENTIRE game started again. All items, secrets, EVERYTHING was in a different place. Talk about a surprise. Sleepless for a week to beat the game, then sleepless for another week to beat it again - just to see if there was anything else. Cudos to Nintendo.

    There's nothing worse than looking forward to a game, beating it, and's over. Talk about your replay value. I wish they would incorporate this idea into more of today's adventure/RPG video games. They did it then...why not now?
  • Look up 'System of a Down Zelda' on napster and download that song.... It's hilarious
  • if interested in other nes games of this nature, check out this

    huge list of other patches and rom hacks []

  • (I was going to say something simular to your post, but since you covered 90% of what I was going to say, I'll just add a comment.)

    There has been so much interest in NES rom hacking, that for certain games, there are programs (usually win32 based) to change the game. For example, the NES Legend of Zelda game has at least one program that I'm aware of to change the overhead map room layout.

    *Sigh* You are right, this isn't news. I remember reading docs about hacking Zelda and playing Zelda hacks over 2 years ago. What's the next thing Slashdot is going to post? Sega Master System Emulated?

  • A version of the old Zelda has already been made for the PC. It features the original quest, and the original quest with a different graphic style. It even includes an editor to create your own quests! The site has many quests that were designed and uploaded using this. The port also has additional features added to the Zelda game. Go and check it out now at, and I'm sure you can d/l it on FilePlanet ( It is, I feel, a superior version that is actually made for PC!
  • The games of today can't hold a candle to the creativity present in the games of 15 years ago. 16 colors and 320x200 screen resolution isn't a heck of a lot to work with, so in order to be successful game designers were forced to actually be innovative with their games, and not just repackage the same concept/engine with different graphics again and again and again like they do today.

    Quake 3 Arena or Unreal or whatever the latest first person shootemup is are essentially Wolfenstein 3D with fancier graphics and different guns. The concept is the same (basically), the controls are the same, the user interface is the same save for a few cosmetic changes (select gun, aim and fire), the monsters are the same (large scary looking thing trying to kill you), problem solving is the same (find keycard, open door).. Overhead strategy games suffer from the same problem. How many Warcraft/Starcraft/Command & Conquer/etc. games are out now?

    Go back a few years. Maniac Mansion - unquestionably the best video game ever. Totally original concept. Innovative plot line and user interface, memorable characters and plot twists, multiple endings, detailed graphics in all their low-res splendor, cool sound effects that were actually relevant to the plot.. Moreover, there had never been anything like it before. It was a totally new concept in computer gaming. That's becoming rarer and rarer in games today as more territory is explored, and there is less of a financial incentive to innovate today as you can make quite a bit of money without breaking any new ground by just licensing somebody else's engine and hiring a few artists to draw new monsters.

    Not that Quake 3 isn't fun to play or doesn't have a new and exciting engine better than anything else ever, it's just not a terribly new concept gameplaywise. As bigger and better graphics boards keep coming out, we'll get more and more Wolfenstein clones with fancy 3D rendered explosions...


  • by freeweed ( 309734 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @05:38AM (#299551)
    April 11, 2001

    (AP) - Nintendo of America announced today that due to incredibly low sales of their 1986 hit 'Zelda', they are over 65 billion Yen in debt, and are declaring Chapter 11 Bankruptcy.

    'All these ROM downloads have taken away literally thousands of sales per day', said an anonymous Nintendo spokesman. When asked how Nintendo could possibly lose sales on an item that hasn't been in production for nearly a decade, the spokesman refused comment.

  • by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @05:03AM (#299557)
    Anybody who's ever looked at Zophar's Domain (here []) in the past two or three years or so knows that there are lots of re-writes and edits of old NES games, from Metroid to Super Mario.
  • by Eustis Burbank ( 415579 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2001 @04:57AM (#299560) Homepage
    Now all we need is for someone to hack the N64 version to add characters from "Conker's Bay Fur Day" to "Zelda:Ocarina of Time"...

    Does the Hookshot work on the "Mighty Poo"?

Do not underestimate the value of print statements for debugging.